Westland Scout research

[Gazzer1uk]

Folks,

I popped the same request on military aircrews but it occurred to me not everyone may view each forum element....

I am hoping to build a flying model of a Westland Scout, probably at 1/4 scale, not an overnight project and it is going to take some time.

At this point I am researching mechanical feasibility, well that is to say my ability to be able to build it! There is every reason it will succeed as a 1/5 scale kit is available!!

However, I lived in NI from 75 to 80 and I'd like to model a version that flew in Northern Ireland as it is quite possible I saw it operationally flying as I was that snotty nosed kid hanging around the pad at HQNI (if you were the pilot or aircrew at the time!). Thus a bit of a reminiscing for me.

In doing the model I'd like to also cover the version that flew in the Falklands armed with the missiles.

This would give me some options such as fitting a Nitesun device and then the version with the missiles, even if a differing paint scheme is required.

However, it may well be that an aircraft from NI never went to the Falklands which would mean I need to build 2 unless someone knows of a version that flew with the missiles, which I certainly never saw and anticipate was not the case!

If anyone can let me know, I'd be grateful as well as a potted history.

The model will feature a shaft driven turbine engine, but sadly I doubt can reproduce those awesome sounds of the Scout, the buzz at full rotor speed and the gale and howling sounds when at hover or slow flight/take off.... but you never know.

If you Google Len Mount Westland Scout, you can see the 1/5th model..

Thanks in anticipation,

Gaz

[Savoia]

The Westland Scout was developed from the Saunders-Roe P531 which first flew on 20th July 1958 and was powered by a Blackburn Turmo 603 engine. My late godfather was a test pilot on this aircraft, with both the A&AEE Boscombe Down and with Ferranti Aircraft Systems.

The production Scout was fitted with a Bristol Siddeley Nimbus (later Rolls-Royce Nimbus) 101 engine although test flights had utilised both the Bristol Siddeley and a De Havilland Gnome H1000. The Scout’s layout involved two front seats and a three-seat rear bench although this could be replaced with a four-seat bench when fitted with modified rear doors. In the casevac role it carried two stretchers internally and two externally in panniers. Skid landing gear was standard.

The type entered service with the Army Air Corps in 1963 and was a replacement for the Saunders-Roe Skeeter. The Scout was primarily used as a multi-role tactical aircraft with duties such as observation, liaison, training and search and rescue.

When armoured as a light attack helicopter it carried either two skid-mounted forward-firing machine guns (L8A1 GPMG) packs or a single pintle-mounted machine gun in the rear cabin. The pintle mount was available in both port and starboard mountings. The gun-packs, which were both aimed at a pre-set convergence angle, carried 200 rounds of ammunition and were mounted on a tubular spar that was fixed between the front and rear undercarriage legs. Tests were also carried out with a Browning M2, also mounted in the rear cabin.

Gun Sight

In the anti-tank role the Scout could carry four wire-guided missiles (the Nord SS11). These missiles had a range of around 6,000 metres but, to employ this weapon, some form of optical magnification had to be used so that the operator could identify the target as well as the missile flare. For this purpose the Army used the Avimo-Ferranti AF120. This unit had a x2.5 and x10 magnification and employed Ferranti’s considerable expertise in gyro-stabilisation to allow the weapons officer to deliver track and direct missile guidance. The lower part of the AF120 could be retracted into its housing while not is use and which gave this device a periscope-like ‘feel’ to it. The sighting head used a gyro-stabilised mirror and was enclosed in a double-skin casing outside the canopy and the entire system mounted on a tubular sub-frame which employed anti-vibration mountings. My godfather was involved in the weapons testing flights for the AF120 and which took place at the Castlemartin range in Pembrokeshire, South Wales.

Northern Ireland

In Northern Ireland the Scout pioneered the use of the Heli-Tele aerial surveillance system, having a gyro-stabilised Marconi unit fitted in the rear cabin. The Heli-Tele unit weighed some 700 lb (320 kg), although later developments reduced this weight significantly. In this role the rear cabin doors and seats were removed and four troops sat in the rear cabin with their feet resting on the skids. Operating with two aircraft in unison, this allowed an eight man patrol to be quickly inserted into an area and set-up snap Vehicle Check Points (VCPs) when necessary.

Up until 1973, the standard tail rotor colour scheme for the Scout were bands of red and white. On 14 September 1973 a soldier died during training at Gosford Castle, Armagh, after coming into contact with the tail rotor blades whilst the aircraft was on the ground. Following this accident the tail rotor blade colour scheme was changed to the distinctive black and white bands.

Because of the specialist nature of operations in Northern Ireland, a particularly important piece of role equipment was introduced in the form of the 'Nightsun' 3.5 million candle power searchlight. Operations at night were greatly enhanced with the introduction of Night Vision Goggles (NVGs), although these missions could still be hazardous. This was evident on the night of 2nd December 1978 when the pilot of XW614, 659 Sqn, became disorientated during a sortie and crashed into Lough Ross, killing the two crew. XW614 was the last of five Scouts written off during operations in the Province.

Falklands

At the start of “Operation Corporate” six Scouts from 3 Commando Brigade Air Squadron were operating alongside three machines from No. 656 Squadron AAC, and when 5 Infantry Brigade landed they were joined by another three Scouts from 656 Squadron.

During the Falklands conflict the Scout was engaged in CASEVAC, re-supply and Special Forces insertion roles. One aircraft, XT629, was one of two Scouts of B Flight 3 Commando Brigade Air Squadron, that was attacked by two FMA IA 58 Pucarás (the only Argentine air-to-air victory in the war) of Grupo 3 near Camilla Creek House, North of Goose Green. XT629 was hit by cannon fire and crashed, killing the pilot and severing the leg of the crewman, who was thrown clear of the wreckage on impact. The second Scout evaded the Pucarás and later returned to the site to CASEVAC the survivor.

Another Scout, XR628, of 656 Sqn AAC, suffered a main rotor gearbox failure whilst in a low hover over MacPhee Pond, 8th June 1982. XR628 had taken cover as two pairs of A-4 Skyhawks from Grupo 5 approached, these aircraft later attacked the RFA LSLs Sir Galahad and Sir Tristram at Bluff Cove. Once the threat had passed and the pilot began to climb away, the main gearbox failed at the main input drive and the aircraft made a forced landing at the lakeside in around four feet of water. The two crew were picked up another 656 Sqn Scout piloted by Capt. J G Greenhalgh later that day. The aircraft was eventually recovered and airlifted to Fitzroy by Sea King on 11th June, but was subsequently written off on its return to the UK. Following research at the National Archive, Kew, it has been determined that XR628 was the same aircraft that was shot down, 26th May 1964, carrying 3 Para CO Lt. Col. Farrar-Hockley.

Scouts armed with SS11 anti-tank missiles were used to great effect during the Falklands campaign. On 14th June 1982 an Argentine 105 mm Pack Howitzer battery dug in to the West of Stanley Racecourse was firing at the Scots Guards as they approached Mount Tumbledown. As the guns were out of range of the Milan ATGWs of nearby 2 Para, their 2IC, Major Chris Keeble, contacted Capt. J G Greenhalgh of 656 Sqn AAC on the radio and requested a HELARM using SS11 missiles to attack on them. As he was engaged in ammunition re-supply, his Scout was not fitted with missile booms. This was in order to reduce weight and increase the aircraft lift capability. Capt. Greenhalgh then returned to Estancia House, where his aircraft was refuelled, fitted out, and armed with four missiles in 20 minutes with the rotors still turning. An ‘O’ group was then held with the crews of two Scouts of 3 CBAS and Capt. Greenhalgh took off on a reconnaissance mission, while the other aircraft were fitted out and readied. Within 20 minutes he had located the target and carried out a detailed recce of the area. He fired two missiles at the enemy positions and then returned to a pre-arranged RV to meet up and guide in the other two Scouts. The three aircraft, positioned 100 metres apart, then fired a total of ten missiles (nine missiles hit, one failed) from the ridge overlooking the Argentine positions 3000m away and succeeded in hitting the howitzers, nearby bunkers, an ammunition dump and the command post. The Argentine troops returned mortar fire, a round landing directly in front of Capt. Greenhalgh’s Scout.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-iI2JVDbqusA/UioEFBjzdnI/AAAAAAAAOMc/LrB7jAHgZ-4/w843-h554-no/AAC+Westland+Scout+AH1+XP905+Middle+Wallop+11+Jul+86+%2528Ro bin+Walker%2529.jpg
Army Air Corps Westland Scout AH1 XP905 (armed with four Nord SS11's) as seen at Middle Wallop on 11th July 1986 (Photo: Robin Walker)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tH_B4goWDjU/UioELdi_5mI/AAAAAAAAOMk/y-HoIhaH-cU/w800-h344-no/AH1+Bessbrook+Mill+Co.+Armagh.jpg
Army Scout at Bessbrook Mill, County Armagh

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RATBDFiy9Nk/UioEOP9OMHI/AAAAAAAAOMw/6S3SZWdPUn8/w461-h554-no/Avimo-Ferranti++AF120+a.png
The Avimo-Ferranti AF120 gun sight for the Scout

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SW82-NFl204/UioEOJhcmqI/AAAAAAAAOM4/2bppUwPngjM/w393-h554-no/Avimo-Ferranti++AF120+b.png
Internal 'periscope' arrangement for the AF120

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QEFqz9efGoo/UioEMvr-H4I/AAAAAAAAONA/bkVWMNoyt8k/w725-h554-no/Casualties+transfer+to+a+Westland+Scout%252C+again+Falklands +1982.jpg
Casualties being transferred to a Westland Scout during the Falklands War in 1982

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HHLGIGaZuP0/UioEOFN2eFI/AAAAAAAAONI/m1qeRWkGC8A/w793-h554-no/Westland+Scout+AH%2521+XP900.jpg
Army Scout AH1 XP900

* * *

Regarding Gazzer1uk's specific question whether the same Scouts which flew in Northern Ireland also flew in the Falklands .. what I can say is that 3 Commando Brigade Air Squadron, to the best of my knowledge, operated in both places although whether they used the same Scouts I am not certain. Perhaps someone will have a little more operational information.

[Gazzer1uk]

Hi Savoia,

Thank you so much for the trouble taken here, it is not only fascinating but insightful too and describes a varied deployment that was not all as successful as could be, yet in other areas a true workhorse of the sky meeting the demands of the day.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the potted history. Incidentally it went into service one year before I was born!

I believe there are still several flying and hope to catch up with at least one in the UK at some near future date.

Again, many thanks for your help and interest,

Regards,

Gaz

[Savoia]

The Scout was, by all accounts, somewhat underpowered (as were many helicopters from that era) and sometimes awkward when it came to maintenance. But, for 25 years she put in a good innings with both the Army and Navy and in the process earned a nickname (within the Army at least) as the 'Flying Land-Rover'.

Its also worth remembering that the Scout is one of the few entirely British built and designed helicopters to have served in the British Army.

For some time after their retirement, there were no flying examples of either Wasps or Scouts in the UK but, that has now changed, although I do not know how many airworthy examples remain.

There is more 'Wasp & Scout' information on the Nostalgia Thread (mainly images but a couple of stories too) and which can be found on the following pages: 5 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-5.html) 28 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-28.html) 61 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-61.html) 62 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-62.html) 63 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-63.html) 64 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-64.html) 75 (http://http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-75.html) 78 (http://http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-78.html) 86 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-86.html) 88 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-88.html) 105 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-105.html) 103 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-103.html) 108 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-108.html)

FYI: The French Nord missile used on the Scout, the SS11, was first used on the Alouette II, and later the Alouette III, and for development testing with the US Army on the UH-1B.

[helimarshaller]

Savoia,

Off topic I know.

Very good report on the incident in the Falklands involving XR628.:ok:
The reason for it ditching was infact due to a tail rotor coupling failure not a main gearbox input drive.

Having braved the freezing water, 2 of us entered the water to remove the four blades and get the aircraft ready for lifting, which did not happen for another 6 hours.

It was only after XT649 suffered engine FOD damage that we were able to get 628 lifted out of the water and moved to Fitzroy where the damage 649 was having its engine removed. Overnight we switched the engines over and completed ground runs by 08:15 the following morning.

The picture below shows me in the freezing water having removed the blades, which are probably still on the bank of the Pond. The damaged tail drive shaft cover can be seen clearly just forward of the Rotary Transformer.

To think that this happened 31 years ago.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/Longbow64_photo/XR628RecoveryFalklands.jpg (http://s208.photobucket.com/user/Longbow64_photo/media/XR628RecoveryFalklands.jpg.html)

[heli1]

Good to see Helimarshaller freezing his b#lls off down under!

An original crate mounted Heli Tele is in the Helicopter Museum.It only just fitted in the rear door of the Scout and took up half the cabin space so Im not sure where the four troops referred to earlier by Savoia sat?

[John Eacott]

An original crate mounted Heli Tele is in the Helicopter Museum.It only just fitted in the rear door of the Scout and took up half the cabin space so Im not sure where the four troops referred to earlier by Savoia sat?

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5586-2/Westland+Scout+_amp_+Helitele.JPG

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5589-2/Heli+Teli.JPG

The advances in modern camera technology: to think this was the duck's guts in its day!

[500 Fan]

There is a book published on the history of Army Aviation in Ulster that I have on my bookshelf. It doesn't have a complete list of all Scout airframes used in the North but the Scouts mentioned in the book include;

XW798
XT623
XT638
XV129
XV136
XZ134

There is probably a list of all Falkland Scouts around somewhere so maybe some of these helicopters served in the North and the South! Good luck with the model.

500 Fan

[SilsoeSid]

How about a version with the flotation gear, the winches or even the casualty pods we had fitted/available in HK & Brunei. Working role kit would be an impressive challenge!

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/660zaps.jpg

[PANews]

I have some Marconi images of the Heli-Tele TI aircraft...... the black and white ones are the 'final' version with the left seat reversed but the earlier colour ones had the seat facing forward with a rather complex control arm.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10932568/img644.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10932568/img645.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10932568/img646.jpg

and the older one....

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10932568/img647.jpg

[Sloppy Link]

mate, check pm

[Savoia]

Helimarshaller: Very much on topic and thank you for the correct details as well as the photographic record! :ok: Never seen someone looking quite to pleased to be out of the damp!

Heli1: Was referring to the Eagle Patrols which would sometimes utilise a three-aircraft flight, one being the Heli-Tele ship with observer and the other two carrying four soldierss apiece.

PAN: Great shots of the Heli-Tele!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-V85UM-eRH4Y/UirZpGg_5vI/AAAAAAAAOOQ/-uGBgUWoooQ/w550-h519-no/soldiers+dismount+from+a+Westland+Scout+helicopter+during+pa trol+along+the+Irish+border%252C+16th+March+1977.jpg
Soldiers dismount from a Westland Scout during an Eagle Patrol along the Irish border on 16th March 1977

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zQtyNZRQZ40/UirZpUVvijI/AAAAAAAAOOY/XULjIfWFopc/w550-h521-no/soldiers+run+to+a+Westland+Scout+helicopter+after+operating+ a+vehicle+checkpoint+in+the+border+region+of+County+Fermanag h%252C+26th+October+1976.jpg
Eagle Patrol extraction by a Westland Scout after operating a vehicle check-point (VCP) in the border region of County Fermanagh on 26th October 1976

No mucking about with lengthy recces and the like, Eagle Patrols would evidently set-up impromptu VCP's as they felt necessary to support security, the entire operation being air-supported. Patrol aircraft would land wherever required.

How about a version with the flotation gear, the winches or even the casualty pods we had fitted/available in HK.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6vXZcw9lLR0/UirZoVEcnxI/AAAAAAAAOOk/eCECwuSBpug/w534-h242-no/XT614+over+Hong+Kong.jpg
XT614 fitted with floats over Hong Kong

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yqgj8DohKS8/UirZo3ZnrqI/AAAAAAAAOOs/aphuhB5gamw/w750-h321-no/XT639+On+exercise+with+a+stretcher+pannier+on+each+side.jpg
XT639 on exercise (not Hong Kong) but displaying the external stretcher panniers

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pZSGtULiolk/UirZpI5aKxI/AAAAAAAAOOI/GWbraYzhfvk/w868-h554-no/AAC+Westland+Scout+AH1+XP901++660+Sqn+Hong+Kong+Dec+81+%2528 Sid+Nanson%2529.jpg
Army Air Corps Westland Scout AH1 XP901 of 660 Squadron in Hong Kong in December 1981 (Photo: Sid Nanson)

Could someone be so kind as to explain what the 'roll-bar' device is which appears on many of the Hong Kong Scouts, just aft of the for'ard doors and looping over the canopy?

500Fan: Well done on the NI aircraft registrations.

Gazzer1uk: As 500Fan states, if you can identify some of the Falklands aircraft then you will be able to verify whether some of the same aircraft flew in both environments. AFAIK and, as mentioned above, 3 Commando Brigade Air Squadron (you know, those Marine types) were the first to be over the Falklands skies in the Scout (with six aircraft). They were joined by three aircraft from 656 Squadron Army Air Corps who added an additional three aircraft when the 5th Infantry Brigade turned-up. So, there should have been at least twelve Scouts in the Falklands.

[John Eacott]

Could someone be so kind as to explain what the 'roll-bar' device is which appears on many of the Hong Kong Scouts, just aft of the for'ard doors and looping over the canopy?


The fwd mounting frame for the floats: same on the Wasp.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/7/7/1302779.jpg

and with the 600lb bomb :E

http://www.dawlish.com/content/27/Royal-Navy-Wasp_Helicopter-25776.jpg

[Savoia]

Ah, yes .. makes sense. Thank you Sir! :ok:

Just so happens that the last Wasp I saw 'in the flesh' so to speak, was an RNZN aircraft. She departed an RNZN frigate which had come into Rabaul harbour (Papaua New Guinea) to hold peace talks between the PNG government and the Bougainville Revolutionary Army.

[Gazzer1uk]

Guy's,

Really grateful for the help and pictures, please keep it coming. Interesting if it may be possible to make the model multi role and fit it accordingly...... Though a couple of models may be easier, just a matter of building it and then persuading the wife to let me play! A friend of mine is a CAD designer and has some of his own CNC cutting tools and has shown interest in the project which could be incredibly valuable.

I sincerely appreciate the help, pictures, knowledge and thoughts, thanks agin,

Gaz

[The Claw]

Those used in the Falklands where;
XP902
XP907
XR627
XR628
XR629
XT629
XT637
XT649
XV130
XV139
XV140
XV141
XW282
XW615
XW616

[Shawn Coyle]

There's an ex-ETPS scout in a hangar in NZ, and it's evidently flown from time to time...

[rotarywise]

and with the 600lb bombSurely you mean the 600lb 'store'. At least, that's what it says in my checklist, along with "I can neither confirm nor deny...."

[Brian Abraham]

Anyone know the reason for the different tailplane location on Scout/Wasp?

[John Eacott]

Surely you mean the 600lb 'store'. At least, that's what it says in my checklist, along with "I can neither confirm nor deny...."

The Sea King HAS1 FRC was for "Bomb, Aircraft HE 600lb MC", we all call it the 600lb bomb.

Last line of the checklist:

On landing

8.21 P Hand both SEF keys and combination tool(s) to weapon custodian

It still strikes me as surreal to chuck away a bucket of instant sunshine and after landing, return the keys :8

[John Eacott]

Anyone know the reason for the different tailplane location on Scout/Wasp?

Only a guess, Brian, but most likely dictated by the tail fold requirements for ship storage.

http://duxfordfotogallery.co.uk/communities/2/004/007/761/302/images/4531378205.jpg

IIRC, early Daring class hangars were a lift down under the flight deck, nice and cosy fitting in there!

[Savoia]

When remembering the Scout one doesn't instinctively think of longlining or logging, but ..

M3xJAQVk3TY

[dermedicus]

The first helicopter I ever saw close up, an AAC one in the eighties on the back of a truck at a Butlin's holiday camp. I was captivated by it and my interest in aviation started pretty much there.

I still think it looks like a lovely helicopter.

Is there any truth to the assertion on Wiki (I am naturally cynical about that resource) regarding the proximity of the heating and fuel controls causing accidents?

[Brian Abraham]

Thanks John.When remembering the Scout one doesn't instinctively think of longlining or logging, but ..Spent a very happy 160 hours driving a Scout, and sling loading was its reason for being. Used on a hydrographic survey ship for setting up tidepole camps and Hi Fix navigation stations. Made the last in service flight in the aircraft 1/8/73 where upon it went into storage and later found a home in the FAA museum at Nowra. Was paraded flying at various airshows by the museum and see it still appears on the civil register.

Always considered the Scout the sports car of helicopters - beautiful handling, though coming from the Huey its fuel consumption was prodigious for the power produced.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/mo1_zps7fad5b4d.jpg

The Ship HMAS Moresby

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/Scout_zpsfb1ef679.jpg

The Aircraft

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/z245_zps11ce7e9f.jpg

The Pilot - why the flare gun on the right of the instrument panel? Never got an answer, must be an Army thing.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/z246_zpsb25657f0.jpg

On the job

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/z247_zpsee839e4f.jpg

Bruce Crawford and self arriving with its replacement at Nowra 11/10/73. Brand new off the production line - 5:20 hours on the clock

[John Eacott]

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/z245_zps11ce7e9f.jpg

The Pilot - why the flare gun on the right of the instrument panel? Never got an answer, must be an Army thing.

More a navy thing: Passmore attempting to hijack an 826NAS Sea King ;)

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5592-2/Take+me+to+Cuba.jpg




And why did you have a handbrake on a skid helicopter? :p

[Brian Abraham]

And why did you have a handbrake on a skid helicopter?Had two of them actually John, the one on the left being the rotor brake.

[Lingo Dan]

Another little design "eccentricity" of the Scout - at least in the mid-70s version that I flew - was that the heater control and the HP fuel cock control were worrying close together.

Don't think I used the heater very much for this reason.

[DSquadron]

Was A Navy thing now seems to be more a RAF thing, with the Chinnys and Pumas the only ones still having the old Pistol, Pyro,No 4 Mk1 1 1/2 Inch fitted. even the Merlin has a box for Pistol and carts. not that there's ever anything in them.
And when i say old, most of them are 1940's vintage.

Love the HiJack fot, " Take this Plane, To Luton"

On Another Note, we used to do a lot of gunnery here at BCE on the Scout, with two skid mounted fwd firing GPMGs down at Castle Martin, With the ETPS. bit before my time but they were still in the gun bay when I was a snotty nosed apprentice.

[SilsoeSid]

ASN Aircraft accident 03-JAN-1966 Westland Scout AH.1 XR638 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=139292)
Date: 03-JAN-1966
Time:
Type: Westland Scout AH.1
Owner/operator: 21 Flt AAC
Registration: XR638
C/n / msn: F9538
Fatalities: Fatalities: 2 / Occupants: 2
Other fatalities: 0
Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Marlborough, Wiltshire - United Kingdom
Phase: En route
Nature: Delivery
Departure airport: RNAY Wroughton, Wiltshire
Destination airport: AAC Middle Wallop
Narrative:
Encountered engine problems while on a delivery flight from Wroughton to Middle Wallop. It lost height and crashed tail first at Marlborough, Wiltshire. It then caught fire and burnt out killing the two crew. Caused by inadvertent closure of the fuel cock in mistake for the heater control

ASN Aircraft accident 10-MAR-1966 Westland Scout AH.1 XT619 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=64764)
Date: 10-MAR-1966
Time:
Type: Westland Scout AH.1
Owner/operator: 21 Flt AAC
Registration: XT619
C/n / msn: F9625
Fatalities: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 3
Other fatalities: 0
Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Stanford PTA, near Thetford, Norfolk - United Kingdom
Phase: En route
Nature: Military
Departure airport: Stanford Army Training Area, Norfolk
Destination airport:
Narrative:
Written off 10/3/1966: While serving with 21 Flt, Army Air Corps, the aircraft was carrying a soldier in a stretcher pod as part of a casevac scenario, during Exercise ‘Baker’s Dozen', at the Stanford PTA, near Thetford, Norfolk. The pilot inadvertently shut off the fuel cock instead of the cabin heater. The pilot reopened the fuel cock, but during the subsequent attempted emergency landing, the main rotors struck a tree and the aircraft crashed in a ploughed field near Thetford. The two crew and the soldier in the stracher pod were injured.

[MOSTAFA]

Became a well known ergonomic problem very quickly which they corrected by riveting a 17 pence clip thingy to lock the HP cock when fully open. I never understood the problem personally - one swivelled vertically and the other horizontally and they certainly didn't look anything like one another.

That said I always remembered what a very sharpe and experienced Scout god told me on conversion "Don't touch either at times of high workload or stress"!

You only got one bite of the cherry on very sporty EOLs, probably the reason for so many Cat 5s. Hot and Hi, I don't think I ever saw a run on shorter than 3/4s of a football pitch in hundreds and hundreds of attempts.

[Gazzer1uk]

Guys,

You are really being so helpful, and it is truly fascinating. To those who have kindly posted pictures, could they PM me if they would be happy me using them in the project, the more scale like I can make this the better!!

I have heard the Scout did not autorotate that well, is this true. I am sure I recall many moons ago one of the Blue Peter presenters as a passenger on a Scout when it did an auto test, I am sure he yelled out as it pitched down!!!

Thanks to those posting serial numbers of the airframes, or registration details, not found any that has yet been in both places, as both were dank and frequently wet, the airframe would probably not have known too much of the difference lol! Having lived there, I never saw so much rain as anywhere else I have lived since!

The project folder for the build has been started, my CAD genius friend is interested so fairly soon we will be looking at a prototype to prove some of the ideas, likely this will be about 1/7th scale and not overly sensitive to scale detail more like a proof of concept. I'll let you know how it progress's and importantly when.

Thanks again, look forward to some more stories!

Cheers,

Gaz

[John Eacott]

You only got one bite of the cherry on very sporty EOLs probably the reason for so many Cat 5s.

As an interested bit of talking ballast on a Wasp (I know, but it's close enough to the Scout) on an air test over Malta, ISTR an auto with something like 3,000fpm ROD doors off as the earth rose up to meet us. Needless to say the driver wondered what I was concerned about.

[MOSTAFA]

This is coming from memory before the purists come along with the exact figures and a great many airframes have gone in between for me.

I think it was all fairly relative - But coming from the Gazelle which army instructors threw at the ground at least 6 times most days, in auto the ROD was about 16/1700fpm at 60kts compared to the Scout at 23/2400fpm at 50+kts opened your eyes - the flare did very little to decrease the ROD but would significantly decrease the run on speed. Add to that +34 with a DA of +2000' ish to PA and it took no prisoners - none at all.

[Gazzer1uk]

Thanks Mostofa,

Worked out what ROD meant but could not work out +34 with DA of +2000ish to PA... it sounds bad especially if DA means descent angle!!

Could you possibly explain it for me? We don't get so specific on the models yet, though now many systems do incorporate telemetry of which one is rotor speed...... usually the only way to spot a forced autorotate is by a silence or speedy unplanned pirouette, at which point it becomes a judgement!

Thanks, sorry not to know of such vocabulary whilst posting here!

Gaz

[MOSTAFA]

Sorry Gaz,

Density Altitude (DA) is a term that can cause confusion, especially if I try!

High DA is never a good thing for heli's. It's defined as Pressure Altitude (PA) corrected for non-standard temperature variations and whilst this is a my best definition, I think a more appropriate one would be: DA is the altitude the helicopter thinks its at and performs in accordance with this computable value.

Say you were using a landing point situated at an elevation of 3000', its possible with a low pressure and hot outside air temp to have a DA of 6000' due to pressure and temperature. Basically the heli would be working at 3000' but have the performance of being at 6000'. Higher you go the less dense the air is.

As for rotor speeds - small blades high enertia - I'm really racking my brain here but I seem to remember something like 410 with a beep range of -2 +9?? Hopefully somebody will remember.

Now I need to lie down.

[Gazzer1uk]

Hi Mostafa,

It is me that ought apologise for spelling your user ID wrong in the first place.

However, your explanation is fine, I understand... thin air = thin ice!!!:eek: as in not enough resistance to keep the fan spinning!

I believe high inertia is a good thing as it means it is easier to keep the blades RPM up.

On a mid sized model the rpm is about 1600, with the plan for this model, I reckon between 800 to 1000, probably made from carbon fibre and composite, which usually "windmill" quite well. That said, ceiling is not going to be more than 300 feet I guess..... DA more likely to be a temperature effect, but slight if at all at such altitudes. You need to see the damn thing and even at 1/4 scale, it gets quite small, very quickly! Mind, there are now on board GPS technologies that can bring it back to the start point, as these tend to work with the gyro stabilisation systems, potentially a welcome feature!

Thanks again, enjoy the lie down and just know you are enriching some one elses life!

Cheers,

Gaz

[rotarywise]

EOLs in the Scout/Wasp were certainly interesting. I recall one individual who, having experienced an engine failure at 500ft downwind at North Front, managed to land successfully on the runway - Green Endorsement. Unfortunately, some few years later, he spread an aircraft all down the runway at Merryfield while trying to show a student how it was done. A rather cavalier approach, I always thought.

[Brian Abraham]

EOLs in the Scout/Wasp were certainly interesting.For a young lad coming from the benign Huey they were certainly eye watering.

Gazzer, if you are interested in serial nos etc, details on the two Australian Scouts can be found here.

Welcome to ADF Serials (http://www.adf-serials.com)

[Lingo Dan]

I came to the Scout from the Whirlwind, whose engine-off characteristics were so benign that basic-course students were allowed a solo EOL sortie.

At the end of my Scout famil' trip, I saw my first EOL demonstrated. It all happened with bewildering speed, the rate of descent was at least twice that of a Whirlwind, and indeed we rattled along about the length of a football pitch once on the ground. (wet grass, perhaps) The instructor said "one of my better ones!" And I wondered what I had let myself in for!

I recall also that an autorotation technique taught was 50 knots and perhaps 45 (fading memory on the details) degrees of bank. This was a truly spectacular exercise, with the rate of descent pinned against the bottom RCDI stop.

However, all that said, I flew the Scout for over 3 years, about 1300 hours and "she" never let me down. Truly, a sports car of the sky.

[Savoia]

Apologies all round that 'the Colonel' failed to address the Sprout's poorly autorotitive qualities while testing it in it's P531 prototype configuration! (He probably thought it was good for keeping the lads on their toes mind you!) ;)

Herewith a 'Sprout' entering autorotation from a free-air hover. Enjoy! :ok:

3VZ5LYkeIUk

[Gazzer1uk]

Wow,

That is an interesting angle for descending...... is there any view on why it was such a test for auto's? Given one is having a go at a scale model, perhaps the same will be true for it!

Cheers,

Gaz

PS Absolutely convinced that the Blue Peter presenter was in a Scout and made loud scared noises, and not a figment of my imagination having just seen this!

[MOSTAFA]

That's the best Scout EOL I have ever seen, perfectly executed by 2 Royal Navy TPs. The coning angle at the end gives away the clue that every ounce of inertia was used and I guess (shortish run on) into a decent breeze. Cracking video.

[Gazzer1uk]

Are there other such videos, found a few on YouTube but none so informative but a lot of fun like balancing on the c of g on a wall!

Gaz

[Gazzer1uk]

Folks,

If anyone has any information ora pictures/schematics or the like I would be grateful to see them.

One thing I am really keen to see is the mast mechanism under the cover. I am looking at what I think are the pitch contro levers and wondering how mechanically efficient they are as the principle of leverage seems to not be in their favour. I may of course be viewing something else hence the hope to find some info, perhaps maintenance or flight manuals.

Thanks again, literally just have to get this project off the ground!

Regards,


Gaz

[Savoia]

Not sure if this can assist?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-S23lBP6OSbE/UjCpp7YxkuI/AAAAAAAAOVM/1PhamIzxNys/w734-h554-no/XT626+a.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-H4QctIleZ8U/UjCpps0xXNI/AAAAAAAAOVU/7v3u3r-SYrg/w418-h554-no/XT626+c.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uG8pttI4VAQ/UjCptTvfh1I/AAAAAAAAOVk/UOkEsmW-mK4/w418-h554-no/XT626+f.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qgp-3nRT2Nw/UjCptkdsNlI/AAAAAAAAOVw/ybiXMLiuQIA/w734-h554-no/XT626+g.jpg

[Gazzer1uk]

Thanks Savoia,

Those are the best close ups I have seen so far and give me some thoughts, and Ideas. On the last one where the gaiter has come free, I am particularly interested to see what it is attached to and the control mechanism for it, under the hood as it were.

I may be oversimplifying it, but am assuming that as those levers are attached to a C shaped control arm, then by raising or lowering these levers singularly or in combination, causes the necessary change in blade pitch during rotation to angle the rotor disc and therefore change the direction/lift of the heli.

I am keen to see under the skin how that works, it may not be possible or appropriate to completely replicate in the model as doubtless these systems were controlled hydraulically and I will be using an electric digital servo which are very powerful, have high resolution and are reasonably fast.

I am also intrigued about the rotor head and the various mechanisms on there, the autorotation video you kindly put up shows a couple of weights (which you can see on these stills) rotating outwards, and then whilst still rotating closing to the main shaft.

I'd be really interested in any explanation of the components above my simplistic understanding.

When you see a picture this close, and see that the blades are being held by two admittedly well manufactured and quality controlled pins, it is quite awesome to understand the forces and stresses that may be apparent but are effectively the main reason you are in the air!!!

On models, the relative strengths are much much higher as mass is lower, energy is lower but the tensile strength of the materials remain the same. It always reminds my of my physics teacher explaining how molecules relative strength is at its' peak when you try and pull it apart...... thank goodness!! Additionally the swash plate is a simple mechanism, practically a bearing mounted on the main shaft encapsulated by a disc with ball link connections from the servo and linkage and another encapsulated bearing with ball links to the rotor blade grips, as you hopefully can see in the attached picture.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r3r2hffdkizwc4k/wBlFOZD3KP


(ignore the cowl, being prepped for glassfibre moulding practice!)

I really appreciate all your input, you clearly are an expert in the Scout and it is so helpful!

Thanks,

Gaz

PS Is there any easier way to display pictures?

[Savoia]

.. you clearly are an expert in the Scout ..

Lol, sadly not!

But, as mentioned, my late godfather was test pilot on the Saunders-Roe P531 which served as the prototype to the Scout and, spurred by his numerous recollections, I have maintained an informal interest in the types he flew .. and many others besides.

What you really need is input from a former Scout engineer, perhaps Icy Waters aka PPRuNer helimarshaller ;) and there may be others besides?

[SilsoeSid]

Gazzer,
I have a Scout AH1 Flight Manual and set of FRC's which may be of interest to you. We're in the same county, making it easy to get them to you once I dig them out. I'll PM you once they've been located.
:ok:

[Sloppy Link]

Gazzer, I have everything you need with access to airframes, aircrew manuals and engineering manuals. You can talk freely to me or the engineers and take whatever copies you wish. You know who I am and no doubt now others will have worked out who I am.

[Gazzer1uk]

Gents,

I am humbled.

Silsoe, I would love to get a copy of those manuals, many thanks indeed. Being that it is a small county happy to travel and cross your palms with legal tender or bottled ferment as appropriate, and appreciate that they would be on loan. I am equidistant betwixt Banbury and Coventry.

Sloppy,

You are a true gent, perhaps I could arrange a visit when convenient? I'd be happy to share some stories as hinted in our PM's! I would certainly relish the engineers discussion.

It matters to me the principles of how the Scout was engineered, the reality in model terms to get to that level of operating detail is circumspect. That said..... the modern materials and manufacturing capabilities with 3 axis CNC, 3D printing and the like make replication much easier, but in scaling down, it doesn't always work to advantage. The turbine is a good example, the only functional design is more akin to the Whittle design with centrifugal action as opposed to axial. There are axial engines, but nothing yet off the shelf. The kind of turbine that will drive this used to need propane to start, so that the combustion chamber was hot enough to burn the kerosene, though now they have overcome that. All said, the molecule size is the same for model or full size as are the temperatures which mean vaporizing the fuel is tougher in the model as is heat dissipation with much smaller surface areas.

But that is where the challenge lies. Please also tell me if I am banging on too much. My life's regret is not to push myself when younger, physically and mentally. I know not whether I could have made it as a heli pilot, but I never made the chance or opportunity, this is as close as I can get and is a passion but one of which I wish not to bore you about!

I reckon we are looking at rotor diameter of about 2.4 metres when built, which is pretty large, so ought have some presence in the air and be large enough to detail in great accuracy.

First though the research, and then in tandem the mechanical development and the fuselage components.... better start loosening up my sanding arm!

Thank you again everyone, this is all really, really helpful and fascinating to boot.

Cheers,

Gaz

[ericferret]

The control system is a spider and piston system which I think was only utilised on Westland aircraft. Very different to Bell, Eurocopter e.t.c.

I believe the joint in the middle was known as a Hardy Spicer but don't hold me to that, I am dredging the brain for 40 year old data.

The two lumps of metal with rods going down to the area of the spider are the pitch moment compensators.

I thought the blades were held on by a couple of gash bolts, the nutplates are missing in the photo!!!!!!!!

Going for a lie down now.

[Gazzer1uk]

Does anyone recognise this?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0eyb5mrpq654ok3/Scout%20Trace%20removed%20background.bmp

I hope so, it is the very start of the project I acquired autocad and did a rough draft up, something I have never done before, was quite pleased with the results!

Next step is to 3d model this in the same software and then start producing some working designs with the mechanical side.....

Thought would let you know project is moving forward!

Cheers,

Gaz

[Savoia]

Gazzer: Please do keep us informed and be sure to send us some photos or a video clip once she's complete!


The model will feature a shaft driven turbine engine, but sadly I doubt can reproduce those awesome sounds of the Scout ..


Some model-makers are doing a pretty good job of getting close though ..

Happy building! :ok:

QGzL50OXh6A

[Savoia]

Gazzer:

Not sure if this can be useful to you?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3V3IO_8BWuk/UkalwDw1KvI/AAAAAAAAOgU/hlz1KI3m7E0/w883-h300-no/Scout+Diagram.jpg
Westland Scout XT629 of B Flight 3 Commando Brigade Air Squadron

As you probably know .. XT629 was gunned-down by two FMA IA58 Pucarás in what was the only air-to-air victory for the Argentinians during the Falklands War. 29's driver was lost and his crewman severely injured. :(

[MOSTAFA]

Savoia,

Nah everything and I mean everything is wrong with that .

[Gazzer1uk]

Thanks Savoia,

That is really a good and helpful picture, many thanks.

Perhaps a model in recognition of the ultimate sacrifice would be appreciated, ..... will have a think about it

Cheers,

Gaz

[Savoia]

Gazzer: Indeed. I shall need to get the facts straight first however.

Mostafa: Taken from a summary on Aviation Safety Network (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=64771) but if you have more detailed information describing what happened to XT629 on that fateful day, please feel free to contribute so that we can get the facts straight.

[diginagain]

I think MOSTAFA may be referring to the inherant inaccuracies present in someone's artistic interpretation.

[wiganairways]

Latest helicopter magazine model is a Westland Scout


http://helicopter-magazine.com/uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/UKHC29.jpg

[MOSTAFA]

Exactly dig - if you want Gaz as already offered I'll put you in touch with most of the RM crews including the Gunner who survived that ordeal but that is a horrible totally out of scale drawing.

[helimarshaller]

From my notes at the time confirm details of incident.
Last time I saw 629 it was painted black and green, had Royal Marines on the tail and coded DR. It was giving me a lift from the Elk back to the Europic Ferry where it stayed until D Day. Then left to join the rest of 3CBAS RM.

Picture presented is c**p & looks like it has been taken from a kids art magazine.

RIP Dick.

[diginagain]

Uncharacteristically for me, I was trying to be a little less forthright. :ok:

[Savoia]

Ah well Gazzer, 629 seems to have raised some responses so, just maybe, your intention of dedicating this project to the memory of late Lt. Richard 'Dick' Nunn, DFC is appropriate, particularly seeing as you had an interest in those aircraft which served in the Falklands.

Regarding drawings, perhaps you could measure the main dimensions from a museum aircraft and scale them down! How do scale-modelers go about building things without detailed plans?

[rotarywise]

Gazzer - Try contacting the CFI at Heliflight UK in Gloucester. She used to have a large (A1 size?) drawing of a Scout on her office wall.

[MOSTAFA]

Gaz

Didn't SS offer you an ODM or copy? That has all the dimensions in it.

I'm certain I've got one in the attic or garage somewhere but that might take a week to find so I don't want to offer unless he can't find his. There is also the famous Scout sliderule and a damper thingy checker somewhere.

Yes we actually carried a sliderule! Best bit of kit ever invented for a single pilot moving 150+ pax in/exfills over 30Nm transits with 500lbs of fuel.

[Sloppy Link]

Got all the AP's, Pilots Notes, real aircraft (the one featured on the photo posted by wiganairways).

[SilsoeSid]

I think my ODM & FRC's were trumped by Slinks offer :(
I acquired many things along the way, but the old kit bag wasn't quite big enough for an airframe ;)

[diginagain]

I can put you in touch with a bloke who torched one.

[SilsoeSid]

digin, This wouldn't be the "Avtag doesn't burn" bloke by any chance?

http://www.explode-mode.com/nuke.jpg

[diginagain]

SS - the very same, who subsequent to his incarceration in Colchester joined Humberside Fire Brigade.

[MOSTAFA]

Gaz it seems to me you have access through SL to all you ever going to need. Love to see its completion.

[Peter-RB]

Gentlemen,

My day was cut short by two cancelled appointments and up here in Lanky its not a nice day so I have spent a short amount of time reading this thread from the first post, ...What an interesting Helicopter and what a huge range of jobs it could do, , one of the most informative threads I have read for months .

My regards to you all. :D
Peter R-B
Lancashire

[ericferret]

Including that all time favourite the disemination of chemical warfare agents!!!!!!

[chrispalmer1977]

Sorry for the poor quality photos. Happened to be at an airport in southern New Jersey a few months ago and found XV134 in the back of a hangar. Can't imagine there are too many of these in the USA. Looked on the FAA website and it is registered but has no airworthiness at this time; does have experimental on the side though so hopefully someone gets it flying again one of these days.

http://s5.postimg.org/4ynxslb47/image.jpg

http://s5.postimg.org/93yuei8w7/image.jpg

http://s5.postimg.org/6b5muh8jr/image.jpg

[MOSTAFA]

The best fun I ever had flying the Scout was single pilot over the jungle doing resup para drops off the ramp in the back dispatched by 47 AD. I forget what we called the slide thing in the back?

[bueffalo]

While it is true that the army only had one designation for the Scout helicopter, (AH1) it is not true to say that any Scout could be used in both Utility and ATGW roles. ATGW Scouts could be operated as Utility aircraft, but Utility Scouts could not be operated in the ATGW role as they lacked the attachment points for the missile booms, attachment lugs for the AF 120 sight, apertures in the cabin floor to allow the passage of missile system wiring and only had one rotary inverter installed. (ATGW aircraft required two)

Utility Scouts could usually be identified by the lack of an aperture for the AF 120 sight in the canopy above the gunner's (LH) seat, such as in the photograph of "XP 900" (Which if you look closely enough you will see that it is actually XP 896) As to whether Falklands war Scouts were ever used in N.I., that is highly likely as all BAOR squadrons (i.e. ATGW squadrons) were rotated through N.I. on four month emergency tours, and aircraft are routinely transferred from one unit to another for a variety of reasons.

Finally, the SS 11 missile has a maximum effective range of 3,000 metres, not 6,000metres as was stated in another posting. The maximum range is dictated by the length of the command wires fed from a spool within the missile body.

[Boslandew]

I think I would have to take slight issue with the Scout being under-powered. I would have said it was better than most types I have flown. I flew it in Hong Kong in 1971/74 where, if my memory serves me, the highest landing was just at over three thousand feet. The summer temperatures were in the thirties and we loaded it to the limit with Ghurkas and radios and flew them into some very tight spots and I never quite ran out of power.

I graduated to the Scout from the Bell 47 Sioux, the Hiller 12B/C and the Saro Skeeter. Now that was underpowered - on a bad day, trying to get airborne from a road on the side of a hill with a large passenger, I couldn't even extend the oleos fully.

[MOSTAFA]

I think I said somewhere in the dim and distant past there was nothing underpowered about the Scout - it operated at 3-5k DA at AUW in the Far East all day long - bulked out on many an occasion - if you could get Translational lift you were gone - it was like having an extra gear!

ATGW was just another role all AH1s could be fitted.

[bueffalo]

Please take a look at Scout "Q" on the cover of "Helicopter Magazine" on page 4 of this string. Immediately below the rear corner of the back door, you will see an external horizontal stiffener with an attachment lug on each end. These lugs are the lower attachment points for the SS11 booms, i.e. an ATGW specific aircraft. Now look at the left hand side view of XV 134/N438VC also on page 4. No stiffener, no attachment lugs, therefore NO ATGW capability, i.e. a Utility specific aircraft. ATGW aircraft had a third external stiffener below the footstep. Utility Scouts do not. This is a structural modification and cannot be transferred between aircraft. ATGW/Utility......never the twain shall meet.

[MOSTAFA]

Well 1900hrs of Scout Piloting and nobody told me that! I must have been having a kip during Bob H? Tech lessons and Oscar's ? Subsequent refresher. Thanks for pointing out my error. Just out of interest your initials aren't RP are they?

[bueffalo]

No problem! and no, those are not my initials! I was a "greeny" and worked on Scouts for 15 years. My last connection with the Scout was at Netheravon. I was with 656 (we had Lynx and Gazelle) but the boys next door (653) had the last Scouts. It was a sad day indeed when I watched the 12 aircraft farewell flypast.
GH

[MOSTAFA]

I led the absolute final Scout fly past at MW 30th March 94 in XT636 which included all the 666 Scouts, 18 in total. I managed to fly several more times 50+ hrs in a Civilian registered Scout at Wattisham a few years later.

Considerably different to what I fly now!

[SilsoeSid]

bueffalo;
I was a "greeny" and worked on Scouts for 15 years. My last connection with the Scout was at Netheravon. I was with 656 (we had Lynx and Gazelle) but the boys next door (653) had the last Scouts. It was a sad day indeed when I watched the 12 aircraft farewell flypast.

I'm sure that during my time in Germany 81-86, and during my time at Nethers in 658 back in '86, 653 were in Soest :confused:

[MOSTAFA]

We can all make a mistake with a few numbers, I didn't know that all scouts were not capable of ATGW! I stand corrected.

[Sloppy Link]

I am the last person to fly XT626.

[MOSTAFA]

You may well be Sloppy link but not on the 30 Mar 1994 when the Scout AH1 final fly past of 18 aircraft took place at Middle Wallop. I'm guessing you mean in the HAF?

[Sloppy Link]

Yep. On the civil register now, G-CIBW.

[MOSTAFA]

Enjoy! But tell me by PM if you prefer - is it operated on an AOC/License?

[Sloppy Link]

The Historic Flight as an MoD organisation is sadly no more, for there is not the funding or enthusiasm to assure the aircrafts airworthiness. BBMF are publicly funded and the RNHF have single service champions throughout their chain of command and it this that keeps them going, unfortunately, army aircraft do not garner the same level of single service support. A trust is being formed with the involvement of HQ AAC to run the aircraft as a civil operation piloted by volunteers on a PPL, the engineering will continue at MW. There are a lot of hurdles to overcome, obtaining the CofA/PtF from the CAA, securing sponsorship, getting a PDA, finding trustees to name a few. Pilots are OK for the moment but qualifying new pilots could be a challenge for the Scout but not insurmountable.

[MOSTAFA]

I'm guessing there will only be 1 or 2 civil licensed pilots (ex QHI's) out there with Scout operational experience at the right age 50/52 - racking my brains I can think of a couple - those are the guys you ought to try to get interested. Good luck.

[Sloppy Link]

The issue is as a non-EASA aircraft, getting the thing on your licence is the hard bit, in the main because there is not a TRTO out there to put you forward for the test although, there are examiners out there, I know two of them, you probably know one of them.

[MOSTAFA]

Can't they fly under the with the same mandate, whatever it is called, for the civvies to fly AH and FBH or am I being a simpleton.

[bueffalo]

18 Scouts! Wish I'd seen (and heard) that!

[bueffalo]

Absolutely correct. It was '58. Finger trouble!

[Sloppy Link]

FBH.....are now Cobham, it is Inzpire who fly AH. They are classed as state aircraft effectively meaning we can make up our own rules, the HAF will be pure civil aircraft and therefore are bounded by CAA regulation. It is because the governance and airworthiness was withdrawn from them they cease to be state aircraft and ergo, they are now on the civil register with the regulation that applies. We'll get there but it is a long and tortuous road.

[MOSTAFA]

I wish you luck but who ever made the decision not to fund them did you absolutely no favours - surely they attracted some revenue? Why on earth make them civil as they were state owned anyway.

Seems to me you need to call on at least 2 ex Generals (GC and NC, both good Scout pilots in their time) to help. Maybe you already have.

[Sloppy Link]

All the time they are state registered and operated they have to conform to MAA regulation which they could not because the funding to assure them was withdrawn. The main issue was a lack of enthusiasm from 2* HQ along with even less enthusiasm from HQ Army and even less than that from MoD centre. Have tried various "friends" in the higher echelons but there is only so much they can do. We're on our own.

[SilsoeSid]

Bit before my time, but for you …… ?


ARMY AIR DEMONSTRATION - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/army-air-demonstration/query/scout+helicopter)

1:05
ARTILLERY ENTERTAIN PUBLIC - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/artillery-entertain-public/query/+DAYS+ARE+FLYING)

[MOSTAFA]

Beyond me Sid I'd be surprised if many of them were still around but I do remember the spectacle of Honest John firing at Ell Barrow for several years.

[Sloppy Link]

Sid, I know who you are......

[MOSTAFA]

I thought everybody did!

[md 600 driver]

Sid
After all these years I can still remember the artillery clip , 4 years later i was at bramcote as a junior leader gunner
Although first flight I ever got was in a helicopter with a bench seat either side and huge door opposite my position and still trying to fasten my seat belt when the pilot started a big bank turn , looking down at the ground , before we all had to jump out whilst the helicopter was at fast taxi speed along the old runway
No health and safety them days

Still not sure what heli it was but was poss Wessex

Steve

[SilsoeSid]

Sloppy Link;
Sid, I know who you are......

I'm sure that I paid you back that fiver ages ago :p


Sloppy, you've changed ...

Sloppy Link flying Westland Scout - YouTube

… but I must say that the longer hair suits you :E
:ok:

[MOSTAFA]

Somebody should tell her about the bias trim system - she didn't touch it once in a 3 minutes clip! Could that possibly be the legend in in his own NAAFI break in the left seat?

[Sloppy Link]

Not me, the aircraft is in balance.

[jonwilly]

Dave Rushton and his crewman, where killed in a crash in early 1978 on route from Minden to Wunsdorf, Op Banner tour.
The Court of Inquiry said he had been about to transmit a call to tower and had gone to close his noisy heater but instead operated the Fuel Shut off lever.
Photos showed the blades virtually undamaged 'On top of' the burned out fuselage.

john

[jonwilly]

With ref to my post it has been pointed out to me, by PM, that Dave Rushton was actually on route, Detmold, Minden- Wurnsdorf and that the crash happened at Lemgo.

john

[diginagain]

Jon, Dave's aircraft came down on the training area south of Lemgo.

[FSXPilot]

My Dad met him that morning at Detmold and hadn't seen him for years and my Dad's parting words were I'll have a pint with you in the mess tonight......

[Alphamate]

I flew a medic to the crash site in a Scout from Detmold that day. We were too late to be of any use.

[Buc Driver]

Can anyone help, has anybody any information about the service history of XV136, this aircraft has just joined the Ulster Aviation Societies collection at Long Kesh, any information/stories would be greatly appreciated.

[heli1]

XV136history in brief....131Flt 7/68...26Flt 3/69...651Sqdn 12/71...661Sqdn NI 8/76... BATUS Canada 3/77....3Regt 7/80...storage 11/81-3/85...AAEE trials 7/85...666 Sqdn 4/86... retired to Netheravon gate guardian until put up for disposal by MoD.

[Lingo Dan]

Just had a look through my logbook and can confirm that XV136 was indeed with 651 Sqn for at least 3 years. "She" was in the Province at Omagh from 30 Nov 73 to Apr 74, Long Kesh from Mar-July 75 and at Aldergrove from Aug to Dec 76.

It's very appropriate that she is now back at one of her former bases with the Ulster Aviation Society.

[janette1910]

Hi Lingo Dan
I am a member of the Ulster Aviation Society who are now in possession of XV136, we are stripping her down to bare metal, have the job almost complete, however we are having great problems trying to get a copy of the exact paint and decals (brown and green) scheme that the aircraft would have been in when she served at Long Kesh or Aldergrove.


Any Ideas where we could get a copy, we are also looking for some wheels so we can move her about our hangar. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Kind regards
Janette

[MOSTAFA]

Janette,

on pge 53 of Guy Warners book, Army Aviation in Ulster there is a picture of XV136 just about to lift from Lisenelly Bks, Omagh in 1976. It looks like a 651 cab because of the Maid of Warsaw (but 654 did have them as well) just between the doors and is in the old green/brown cam, I am sure later it would have been darkened to a green/black. If you can't get hold of a copy of the picture I will try an scan it on my next turnover in the UK.

[Lingo Dan]

Janette,

Absolutely cannot help you with the wheels; however, will have a look through my photos to see what's there. They will be black and white, I suspect, but perhaps better than nothing.

[diginagain]

Janette, have you approached the Museum of Army Flying at Middle Wallop? They might be willing to source a pair and pass them on as a museum-to-museum loan.

[heli1]

Janette...an alternative to wheels would be a pair of skates,as used for moving cookers and such like around.

[MOSTAFA]

Lisenelly Bks, Omagh - now was that Y010 or Y011, or am I miles out - strange how your brain goes back 30+ years and dwells!

I am certain there will be loads of wheels in the bomb dump at MW - the museum is the right place to start. Is the spanner still in the pouch? Between the doors on the port side if memory serves me right!

[Sloppy Link]

Janette, check pm.

SL

[RUCAWO]

Hi Janette, guess who ;)

[Sloppy Link]

Janette, get in touch, I have wheels.

[MOSTAFA]

And a spanner?

[Sloppy Link]

Not needed, these are the GSE wheels.

[Amos Keeto]

I am gathering material to publish a model-maker's book in the Warpaint series on the Scout and Wasp and was wondering if anyone has any info and good quality photos of Scouts operating in Cyprus in United Nations colours, wearing the UN light blue band round the fuselage?

[Gazzer1uk]

Let me know when its done Amos, I have not given up on this project, just time and money got in the way!


Thanks,


Gaz

[Sloppy Link]

Twitter @HistoricFlt can't help but there are some good photos of the traditional colour scheme. https://t.co/01gMHSSX9t

[Amos Keeto]

Thanks guys. The publication will be available later this year. I have all the photos I need of all Scout and Wasp colours apart from a UN Scout.
Have flown in many Scouts with 660 Sqn. in Hong Kong and at Wallop, so have quite an affection for the type.
Gaz - I am quite excited at the thought of seeing your radio-controlled Scout model, so don't give up on it!

[ericferret]

I was interested to see the first photo in post 14. The identification seems wrong.
Probably taken in Germany 1975 possibly 76 during pre Ireland training. The lead soldier is "Jinx" Jenkins and the second Nick Browne both R.E.M.E.
Nick moved on from army aviation during 1976.
I think the pilot is WO1 Dave Patterson.
All 660 squadron AAC.
With all due respect I doubt Jinx and Nick would have been playing footsie with the I.R.A down in bandit country.

[500 Fan]

Any update on the Westland Scout book from Warpaint, Amos? I fancy making a few additions to my library this Christmas and the Scout/Wasp book is top of my list. Thanks.:ok:


500 Fan.

[Amos Keeto]

The Scout & Wasp Warpaint book is all complete and finished, but still waiting for the artist to finish the profile drawings. It should be with the printers shortly and maybe out by Christmas, but can't guarantee it.

[500 Fan]

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to it.

500 Fan.

[Alan l]

Apologies if this has already been posted,Dr Terry Martin ,who operates WASP XT787 in the UK as the Westland Wasp Historic Flight has posted the below on facebook.

The aircraft suffered an engine failure last year and received damage in the subsequent,although very well handled,force landing and as part of the effort to raise funds to get the aircraft flying again, he is going to produce a book on the aircraft and its sibling ,the Scout, so if anyone has any stories they could share,please get in touch with him.

Regards, Alan

26 March at 19:31 ·
WHERE ARE ALL THE DITS AND STORIES?
Since I owned my first Wasp, I've always looked for a book on how the Westland pair (Scout and Wasp) were developed and how the Wasp performed in service with Navies around the world.

Many of you very kindly offered support, both financial and in other ways after the incident which led to the rebuild of Xray Tango and, although I could not have justified taking money from people, it is my personal goal to get XT back in to the air and to continue the tribute that she pays to all the brave aircrew that flew Wasps, and to all those who served in some way that supported the Ships Flights. The best way to do this is to continue to display in events and airshows all over the UK, and to fly her to demonstrate her best capabilities, and impress those who don't yet realise what an important role was played by Wasps in naval history.

Sadly the costs to keep XT flying have been enormous over the past year, not just after the incident on 23rd September 2016 (much of which is being covered by insurance), but also just for the routine maintenance and normal hourly running costs. To help with the big bills, a few kind supporters have suggested writing that book I've been looking for.
What a great idea, and the royalties will fairly be used to help keep Xray Tango flying through another season.

But I can only do so much on my own without the help of those of you who worked closely with Wasps whilst in service in the UK and in all the other countries that took their first steps into naval rotary wing flight with the Westland Wasp.
I've only received a couple of short 'dits' so far, and yet I know there must be many hundreds, if not thousands of people out there that have a story to tell. Do please share, and your story will be told sympathetically and acknowledged as the author's unless anonymity is requested.

I hope to be inundated now, so please put the proverbial pen to paper and either share on this FB page or write to me at [email protected].
Many thanks
Terry
[email protected]
#historicwasp
https://www.facebook.com/navyrotors/

[Amos Keeto]

So sorry to learn of this. Terry kindly flew me in his Wasp last year to gather material for my book in the Warpaint Series on the Scout & Wasp which has just been published.

Copies are now available from specialist bookshops, on E. Bay or from
Guideline Publications for scale aircraft and toy soldier modelling (http://www.guidelinepublications.co.uk)

[KiwiBoyZac]

I wonder how Gazzer's model build is coming? He's certainly created a fascinating thread!


There's an ex-ETPS scout in a hangar in NZ, and it's evidently flown from time to time...
I'm yet to see it in person (going to Wanaka is rather cost-prohibitive) but he's right! There's also a P.531-2: http://bit.ly/2oo77DC , http://bit.ly/2oQMT69