Bad Morale in the British Army?

[SASless]

Wot's this? Bad Morale in the British Army? Troops quitting and going to Civvie Street?

Amazing to think the UK is going to downsize to a 82,000 Man Army.

So long as you continue to refuse the American Invite to Fandango I guess so long as you can keep up with the Ceremonial duties you are good to go. Ya'll always did look good on Parade in those colorful uniforms and tall fur bonnets.

Sad too on top of the Troop Reduction itself is the loss of Regiments and all the Traditions that go along with them. That is a pity.

Surge of soldiers wanting to quit prompts morale concerns - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10274897/Surge-of-soldiers-wanting-to-quit-prompts-morale-concerns.html)

[Bob Viking]

This phrase encapsulates everything that is wrong with the MOD political types:
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said a huge number of soldiers had chosen to stay, "so it is not a reflection on morale in the Army".
I hope they don't genuinely believe the crap they spout to the press.
BV

[500N]

"Army chiefs are particularly concerned they are losing a generation of officers who have gained invaluable experience from the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. One senior Army source said: “It’s the worst I have seen it and we are losing some real high flyers who could have great careers in front of them.
“These are not old duffers, we are talking about highly experienced middle-ranking officers who have spent the last 12 years in Iraq and Afghanistan.”"




I would ask what was being done to make sure the "high flyers" didn't leave
or was it the usual military response of someone else will be available, no one
is that important !


This war generation will be in for maybe 20 years. A lot to lose.

[SASless]

Young'uns don't have the willingness to suffer along for decades with no toys, poor housing, bad pay and benefits, all the while suffering under a bunch of Dicks.....at least not like older generations did.

Basically, I reckon the young'uns are a lot smarter than their Dad's and Granddads were.

[500N]

Yep.

And / Or, and I know this is anecdotal, they do the 4, 6, 8 years, fight a few wars
and get out while still young enough to get on with something else / start
another career.

[Party Animal]

One senior Army source said: “It’s the worst I have seen it and we are losing some real high flyers who could have great careers in front of them.
“These are not old duffers, we are talking about highly experienced middle-ranking officers who have spent the last 12 years in Iraq and Afghanistan.”
Col Richard Kemp, a former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, said many soldiers now viewed the Army as a “declining industry”.
He said: “People who had hoped to serve out full careers and have the expected career path and progression are seeing it shattered as the Army is cut to pieces.
“A lot of people are seeing their friends made redundant and that causes a lot of discontent. There’s a lot of concern about people losing allowances and how that will hit their standards of living.”
He said it would be “incredibly difficult” to replace the hard-won experience held by many of those leaving.


Not sure about the dark blue but you could certainly substitute the letters RAF instead of Army in the quotes above. Sadly....

[Melchett01]

Morale .... Nope, sorry, afraid you've lost me there. Is it a new UOR that we don't know anything about yet?

[Churchills Ghost]

I would ask what was being done to make sure the "high flyers" didn't leave.

Nothing.

In Britain's "modern military" individuals are not important, only the collective (think in terms of the Borg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek))) and the achievement of political goals not practical solutions or even sensible outcomes.

[Torque Tonight]

Whilst armed forces personnel experience overstretch, underinvestment and continual cutbacks, groups such as new immigrants, prisoners and the benefits class seem to be treated with more respect, dignity and funding. Didn't the barrack blocks at Colt have to be refurbed at considerable expense to meet the standards required for sex offenders and immigration detainees - what sort of message does that send to the nation's most loyal? Meanwhile, we had people returning from ops, living in leaking portacabins through the winter in a car park at home base. The mythical military covenant seems to be a very one sided deal and most instantly improve their quality of life and income by jumping ship. It is a deplorable state of affairs, and all governments of the last decade or two are equally culpable.

[sitigeltfel]

Didn't the barrack blocks at Colt have to be refurbed at considerable expense to meet the standards requiredMany local councils have refused the offer of ex military quarters, citing them as being below standard. Even when they were in decent condition, they didn't come up to scratch due to insufficient floor area.

Good enough for the troops though :rolleyes:

[OutlawPete]

Yep.

And / Or, and I know this is anecdotal, they do the 4, 6, 8 years, fight a few wars
and get out while still young enough to get on with something else / start
another career.

Agree fully and not just anecdotal 500N. I've seen this numerous times now and young ex Army/Navy/RAF make very good civilian employees. A bit of real life experience, in most cases they have attained civilian qualifications, modern apprenticeship, degree, etc. They are motivated and prepared to put themselves out for the greater good if needs be.

[500N]

Outlaw Pete

That is interesting that the same applies in the UK.

My "anecdotal" was from reading, watching, talking to diggers
in my old unit who served in the regulars, the last Australian VC
winner who had done I think 6 years and got out.

[gijoe]

Tranche 1 Volunteers - The ones that had had enough and were going to go anyway. Not selected - gone anyway via the 7 Steps of JPA.

Non-volunteers - gone anyway.

Tranche 2 Volunteers - Those that had seen Phase 1 Vols go and get jobs and fancied a bit of that. Get ahead of the bow wave etc.

Non-volunteers - gone anyway. Survived 2 rounds - 2 to go

Tranche 3 Volunteers - Spoken to the others that had already gone and were seeing the extra work on them slowly increasing due to the others on resettlement etc. Slightly behind the bow wave now.

Non-volunteers - gone anyway. Getting more desperate and amazing how brave some of the wardodgers became.

Tranche 4 Volunteers - who knows?

Industry wanted Phase 1 vols and got a good crop.

Q. Why would you stay in an Army that is shrinking, losing its raison d'dtre in the coming months and not really sure of what the future holds when you could try your hand at other things? (Probably applies to other colours)

The Army is a young man's sausage machine as the routine and training can be brutal. It is not a 40+ year old's game...despite what those that you see running around like Mutant Ninja Turtles might want you to think?

I sure their knees will be fine in the the future. :ok:

G (Civvy since Tranche 1 - Took 12 months to get in the TA. Not seamless)

[TomJoad]

Bad morale in the British Army:eek:

Dog bites man.

[Hangarshuffle]

Some sensible comments above me here.^
I always found the state of morale hard to gauge in the Navy, for a long time. Some of the most bitter people I ever met in my many years seemed to be the Junior Ratings of the ships company of HMS Illustrious in 1984. They seemed (I now perceive 29 years later) to feel they had been continuously seen off in a wide variety of ways since the ship had become operational (1982), and appeared to me (as a mere callow youth) a very tough, bitter,cynical and potentially violent set of lads at times. Loads of them seemed to wrap at the end of 1984 and that commission (when the ship went for refit) and went outside.
But really, thinking back they/we/me had it really easy.

I think the morale of the Navy I served with collapsed after SDR - you know Ark going, Invince. wrecked, SHAR went. Pay frozen, then the tranche redundancy thing, it just seemed to go on and on-fewer and few platforms made me feel very uneasy on operations. I though we really lacked credibility as a fighting force, the RN has become steadily weaker and weaker.Added as someone wiser than me says above, the people we were working for.....and I include senior military as well as civilian...were not good, not the right people at all. I really noticed it and had a long look at where I was (by this time I am in the old duffer park anyway) and simply resigned and left.
Now, I wish I'd left years earlier, (as many people say afterwards).

I cannot for the life of me think now why anybody either joins any of the forces, or stays in. I'm sorry but that's what I think.
"Why would morale be high?", could be another way of asking the question why is morale low?
God bless them though, especially the Army for doing it. I still appreciate them, more so than ever.

[Hangarshuffle]

Just to add to what I think sitgelfel says above, twas poor accommodation at Culdrose that drove me to distraction....and I think of all the issues this was the one that made me hit the ejector button on JPA.
If the MOD or the country cannot get basic clean accomm. right for people who return from sea or desert operations, then a sticky wicket they are on. Seeing and reading about money lavished on a wide variety of the British social spectrum, whilst I lived in the delights of Vian Block, truly crushed my spirit.:{
And yes the young officers at CU had it even worse than the Senior Rates - how any of those very bright and able young guys and gals could put up with it I will never know. What a way to treat people.

[500N]

Hangar

I have heard the comment made here in Aus that Asylum Seekers
get better PAID FOR accommodation that people on welfare, the
military etc and that's before all the other welfare payments are
made to them - for free.

It's no wonder mil people get pissed off.

[drustsonoferp]

Torque,

There is a continual banging of the anti-immigrant drum at present fed by chronic mis-representation of facts, xenophobia and giving a convenient diversionary scapegoat for many ills. Mostly it is pretty disgusting and is unlikely either to solve any problems or bring any long term benefit, while the reverse is perfectly possible. The economic benefits of imigration are consistently downplayed while focussing on how bad the illegal side is. Our political masters are driven by popular opinion, rather than willing to engage and lead it with proper informed debate.

Benefits have had a significant cudgel from the gov't, who stick to the strivers vs scroungers drivel in another surprisingly successful divide and conquer manoeuvre.

Decrying the decisions made on and within the MoD shouldn't mean a need to rush to the bottom to hurl stones at other easy and often undeserving targets IMO.

[gijoe]

Accommodation wasn't really an issue for me as anything was better than a hole in the ground sans bathroom.

Other factors mentioned above were also important.

A big question for me was also if all 3 colours have retained and promoted the type of leaders that I would want to work under for the next few years????

I was worried and made my decision.

G

[Heathrow Harry]

TBH there are always relatively large numbers of people leaving the armed forces every year - there is some idea it's actually affected by how good civy street looks cp service prospects

In 2006-2007 Civy street was booming and a lot of people left - since then people have tended to be a bit more sticky

Defence Analytical Services and Advice: UK Armed Forces Quarterly Manpower Statistics (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/index.php?page=48&thiscontent=170&pubType=6&date=2012-02-09&PublishTime=09:30:00)

has the recent numbers

Somewhere between 12000 - 16000 leave every year (highest in 07-08)

Army loses 8000- 11000 (highest 07-08)
RAF 2500 - 5000 (06)
Navy very flat at 2250-3000 every year

[Just This Once...]

HH, not sure of your conclusions as a smaller force should have a declining total outflow. The fact that outflow in terms of pure numbers has remained steady whilst the armed forces have reduced in size is another way of saying that the percentage leaving is increasing.

Anyway, the official and latest position from DASA is:

• The outflow of personnel from the UK Regular Forces was 24,110 in the 12 months to 30 June 2013. This is a increase of 590 (2.5 per cent) when compared with the 12 months to 31 March 2013 and an increase of 2,470 (11.4 per cent) when compared with the 12 months to 30 June 2012; this is due to those leaving on redundancy and an increase in voluntary outflow.

DASA's take on it seems about right from where I am sitting. What is not reflected in the stats is the profile of the cadre choosing voluntary outflow; this is of serious concern.

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/personnel/military/quarterly_personnel_report/2013-07-01/1_july_2013.pdf?PublishTime=09:30:00

[TBM-Legend]

all leave is cancelled until morale improves....

but as they say, if you don't like it then leave it..

[Broadsword***]

There is a continual banging of the anti-immigrant drum at present fed by chronic mis-representation of facts, xenophobia and giving a convenient diversionary scapegoat for many ills. Mostly it is pretty disgusting and is unlikely either to solve any problems or bring any long term benefit, while the reverse is perfectly possible. The economic benefits of immigration are consistently downplayed while focussing on how bad the illegal side is. Our political masters are driven by popular opinion, rather than willing to engage and lead it with proper informed debate.

Benefits have had a significant cudgel from the gov't, who stick to the strivers vs scroungers drivel in another surprisingly successful divide and conquer manoeuvre.

Decrying the decisions made on and within the MoD shouldn't mean a need to rush to the bottom to hurl stones at other easy and often undeserving targets IMO.

Very well said.

[Heathrow Harry]

JTO

You have a point of course - but it's interesting that the numbers vary (especially for the Army) by so much - somewhere I think I have some longer term numbers.

I can't ever remember the Forces being happy about the numbers leaving and understand why - even if they aren't the brightest and the best you still have to keep training new recruits. Same as any business TBH

there's always a perception that "it's a crisis" - the numbers suggest it isn't but it's part of the ebb & flow of the whole employment economy

[SOSL]

Just scanned the link in JTOs post at #21. The MOD appears to have developed something called the "Naval Service".

What happened to the Royal Navy? Did someone decide that it would be good for morale to rename it?

If so, why not the Air Service and the Land Service!!

Now, I'm going to go and sit quietly in my darkened room, with a large Black Grouse ( the drink not the bird ) and try to think calming thoughts.

Rgds SOS

[airborne_artist]

The Naval Service probably means the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines, combined. To write about the Royal Navy, the Army and the Royal Air Force would therefore leave out the bootnecks ;)

[SOSL]

Thanks AA. I'm sure you're right, but I've still got a monk on! Just because they're statisticians they think they can hide the Royal Marines.

Rgds SOS

P.S. I was a RAF engineer so I have no anchor to swing (as it were). I'm just miffed that statisticians seem to be allowed to constrain our understanding of the world.

In my day they were called "Clk Stats" and bloody good they were too, but they weren't in charge.

I think I'll have another grouse ( the drink, not the complaint )

Rgds SOS

[airborne_artist]

There is of course an Air Service, SOSL. They don't wear light blue though ;)

[500N]

I was surprised by the use of the term Naval Service.

From wiki.

The Naval Service is the naval warfare and maritime organisational structure of the British Armed Forces. It consists of the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, Maritime Reserves, and the Naval Careers Service.[1]

The term Naval Service should be distinguished from the "UK Naval Services", which consist of the Naval Service and the Merchant Navy. The Naval Service as a whole falls under the command of the Navy Board, which is headed by the First Sea Lord. This position is currently held by Admiral Sir George Zambellas (appointed April 2013).[2] The Defence Council delegates administration of the Naval Service to the Admiralty Board, chaired by the Secretary of State for Defence.

I check the source for 1. "Queen's Regulations for the Royal Navy"

[SOSL]

I take our point - shush, say no more.

Rgds SOS

[Whenurhappy]

'Naval Service' is not a new term and includes, as pointed out, the those in sworn Service to the Navy, but I also thought it includes the Royal Fleet Auxilliary - quite a fleet in its own right. The The RN Maritime Auxilliary Service (who used to operate the 'black and buff' tugs and similar) were contractorised about 15 years ago. Their last base was HM Yard Pembroke Dock.

[Heathrow Harry]

The RFA is a civilian organisation owned by the MoD

The vessels are crewed and commanded by civilians with detachments of Rn or RAF personnel attached for specific purposes (ehg helicopter operation & maintenance)

For management purposes it is fully integrated into the RN