Thoughts on post CPL options

[gfunc]

Folks,

I am approaching the end of my CPL and I'm seeking advice on a decision I have to make. Let me preface this by saying that I am not one of these people obsessed with climbing straight into a shiny jet to press buttons - maybe down the track, but it is not my one and only aim. I believe I would be perfectly happy putzing around in a C172 for a wee while. To cut the chase, I would like to know your opinions on which of these two is the more likely to find employment in the current economic climate, in your experience:

(i) 200ish hour CPL + FI Rating (with extra $20k in back pocket)
(ii) 200ish hour CPL + MECIR + 100 hours ICUS and 50 hours PIC in a piston twin (night IFR cargo runs)

I have the option of getting myself into either of these positions. Obviously one has more hours, but as far as I can see has more limited opportunities. Certainly either training provider might offer me a job at the end of the course, but there are no guarantees, hence I am thinking of the worst case scenario whereby I finish the courses and get sent on my merry way. I have flown previously with both providers and I like them both. Each tells me of a glorious future paved with gold, but since I live (sort of) in the real world I know full well they are both businesses and will tell me what I want to hear to get me to swipe my credit card.

I am leaning towards the FI at the moment as I enjoy tutoring (I work at a uni) and I think there are probably more job opportunities, especially around the capital cities, plus I would be $20k better off. Please note that I have a genuine interest in instructing, rather than using it to fill up the logbook on the way to somewhere else.

Your thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.

Gareth.

[MadMadMike]

Since when did an MECIR have to include 100 ICUS and 50 Twin Pic out of your own pocket :ugh: A bare rating will be all you need and you will find that in time your employer will pay for your ICUS when the time comes.

[seneca208]

If the paid ICUS happens to be with any Toll Priority contractors, I'd be cautious. They don't seem to be overly happy about the practice from what I hear.

[the_rookie]

Paid ICUS at vortex maybe?
If you enjoy teaching then instructing may be for you. You wouldn't need MECIR for your first job anyway.

[solowflyer]

Instructing sounds like the pick for you. Paying for ICUS won't win you much respect from your peers.

[gfunc]

Thanks for the input so far guys. Does anyone know if there is a surplus of grade III instructors at the moment? Would finding a job as a fresh faced instructor with just 250-300 hours TT be relatively difficult?

Yes, the_rookie, I'm looking at the Vortex Air ICUS program.

Gareth.

[poonpossum]

If you are serious about being a progressive and professional pilot, don't pay for ICUS.

I too thought that the Vortex thing sounded like a good idea when I was starting out, but when you get into the world of commercial aviation, you will realise that you were just increasing the profit margin for flights that have already been funded.

Never pay to operate any aircraft that is already making bank for the company, consider yourself, your enthusiasm and your time as the asset you are presenting to a potential employer, not your cash.

[Mick Stuped]

Poonpossum, biting the hand that feeds you is never a good move. Take the same logic, did you go to an employer before you started to fly and ask your potential employer to pay to teach you to fly. Of course not! First jobs are hard to get in these times, the better the skill set you have the better the chance of getting that first job is. Paying for ICUS is like another endo, it improves your skill set and gives you more tools.

Gfunc,depends on the company doing the ICUS training. If you are getting some real good commercial skills training as ICUS in IMC conditions, at night in a pressure cooking fast moving operation, then as an employer I am going to pick the guy with commercial training in tough conditions with a good operator above any instructor rated pilot, who maybe able to fly an aircraft and have perfect radio skills but cannot economically manage his aircraft or time. As your ICUS training is real everyday work this is what you are taught, basically how not to cost your boss money through silly mistakes, this can only be learnt on the job, with tricks of the trade. Don't ICUS train with a company doing easy passenger runs in virtual VFR, look for a company that will push you.

Remember you are going to work in a tough commercial environment, anything you can do that puts you at the top of the pile with experience do it. Good ICUS trained pilots stand out so much to an employer with flying skills and commercial decision making and confidence than any ex young instructor ever has, trust me chalk and cheese. You will also amaze yourself just how much you don't know and with how much your skills will improve. If you don't feel this then you are with the wrong ICUS trainer, they will push you.

To also be brutally honest, the less time our CP has to spend with you to get you online, the better it is for us. The minute their bum sits in the seat it is costing us dollars in lost revenue be that freight or Passenger. Really that's why ICUS time costs you. You are still being trained and the time that involves with brief & debrief, as well as usually extra time in the air because you are slower at everything, but you are also costing lost revenue due to your weight or bum on seat. Think of ICUS as the next level of training, all pilots do it it's called commercial reality, you want a job do it. Your peers may think you are pushing in, your potential employer will call it dedication and ambition. Just what we are looking for.

By the way, we have no association with any companies doing ICUS training, but have seen the result and will always employ a low hour, good ICUS trained pilot above one without.

[Wally Mk2]

'MS' interesting reply, no doubt some here will not share yr same thoughts on paid ICUS. Personally I can see both sides of the argument due aviation is in some ways now a mugs game at that level.

Just out of curiosity what did you hiring guys do before in the days where paid ICUS was really unheard of?


Wmk2

[Mick Stuped]

Wally, all ICUS was in-house. There was the luxury of natural progression. Start a newbie in a 172 doing scenic then onto a 182 with short charter and then onto 206 freight charter up to 210 for IFR freight and a higher performance. From there onto 402 and Navajo chieftain and then it was goodbye from us with usually 1500 - 1800 hours under the belt to RPT.

Now it is straight to airvan,206,210 less work,seasonal. So we now need command hours and experiance as we dont like to shove a newbie straight into a larger higher performing aircraft. Like most operators we don't have the luxury of bringing a pilot up through the the levels anymore as the demand and economics for small aircraft doing scenic's is just not there.

For twins we can still get a good pilot up there, and try to whenever we can, but we don't usually have that option as the lack of full time work for the singles, means when a twin pilot leaves us we don't have a suitable replacement good enough to get to our standard from the single ranks so its easier to look for a twin houred pilot to replace them.

Company policy is 1000 hours command and 500 hours ME TT before a twin, single pilot operation seat.

[seneca208]

I can definitely see the advantages of ICUS from an employers perspective, but as it becomes more popular what does it mean for the rest of us? To merge slightly with another thread on poor training standards compared to years gone by, will a CPL become just a tool to enable students to go onto further training (at their cost) on paid charter operations? Will I need to go and buy some ICUS in a 210 to do some Bungle scenics? Where does it stop..

[Centaurus]

Think of ICUS as the next level of training, all pilots do it it's called commercial reality
ICUS just gets more ridiculous. I saw a log book a few weeks ago where the bloke had a total of 2400 hours of which 1100 was ICUS! His total real command time was 75 hours.:confused:

[Centaurus]

Company policy is 1000 hours command and 500 hours ME TT before a twin, single pilot operation seat.
.

Not trying to be a smart-arse but I find it quite fascinating when comparing the hours required in 2013 before getting a single pilot twin command. And in the 1950's where an RAF pilot would be flying a four engine bomber single pilot with total of 500 hours or less.

Maybe the high experience level demanded of Australian GA pilots to get his first twin job, reflects the fact there is and always has been, a hopeless over-supply of CPL's and so the operator can cull any applicants that fail to meet the required hours. In other words it is not necessarily the skill or good attitude as a pilot that gets you that first twin job, but more like its a lottery biased towards hours attained.

[pilotchute]

Chartair has put people in 402's with less than 500 hours and Australasian Jet into PA31's with the same.

So when needed it can be done somehow??

[the_rookie]

Company policy is 1000 hours command and 500 hours ME TT before a twin, single pilot operation seat.
This is probably a stupid question, but how does a pilot in your company build the ME time for the upgrade when they are only flying SE charter? Cheers

[seneca208]

Chartair has put people in 402's with less than 500 hours and Australasian Jet into PA31's with the same.

So when needed it can be done somehow??

Throw in all the other low hour twin pilots on the east coast too.

To quote one of the Chief Pilots 'Flying Bear'

The "insurance" thing is largely a cop out, in my opinion - an easy way to show a pesky wannabe the door...

[Mick Stuped]

Centaurus, how long has it been since you have had to deal with insurance companies?
The problem is they are rising their premiums and the minim required hours. They are getting tighter with named pilots. So the lower the hours they perceive a higher risk and so, if they do insure you, the premiums go through the roof.

Company policy reflects the minim hours before a hike in premiums kick in. Touch wood we have a nil accident history and a few aircraft on the same policy, so I don't know how companies get on that have had a bad history.

We put our own guys in with less than 500 hours ME, they do ICUS with us no cost and if they are good enough then progress as a named pilot as a single pilot op's after about 100 hours ME TT. However to hire off the street we go with 500 TT ME.

[poonpossum]

Poonpossum, biting the hand that feeds you is never a good move. Take the same logic, did you go to an employer before you started to fly and ask your potential employer to pay to teach you to fly. Of course not! First jobs are hard to get in these times, the better the skill set you have the better the chance of getting that first job is. Paying for ICUS is like another endo, it improves your skill set and gives you more tools.

Ok cool. So I suppose paying ones way into an airline is good too? It's the same thing, just diluting the industry from the opposite end.

Let me get this right, the timeline of someone who definitely isn’t me, paying for ICUS, our hypothetical newbie.

- Finishes flying school.

- Gets MECIR

- Forks $14k to fly revenue charters ICUS. Acquires ‘skill set’ associated with flying Navajo at night, IFR.

- Finishes ICUS

- Flying school: “Actually, sorry, no job, thanks for your cash, now get out of my office”

- Gets single engine VFR job for a year or more.

- IFR skills get rusty, isolated location and no cash inhibits renewal opportunities.
- Finally it’s time to progress.

- Twin job interview passed.

- IFR skills rusty, needs retraining anyway

- Trained to standards of the new company anyway.

- Wonders why she gave her flying school ridiculous cash for something she just got for free, that was of a better quality, from someone that actually saw her as an asset and not a cash cow, that had a real, working system in place to properly train pilots up to their own company’s standards.

Is that the general jist of it?

[BreakNeckSpeed]

you will realise that you were just increasing the profit margin for flights that have already been funded

Or in the case of at least one former Top End operator, using the additional cash flow to reduce their hire-out rates and undercutting the @#$% out of their competitors. Great way to ensure you win a contract I suppose..

As for the insurance premiums excuse - I recall when I started out my employer at the time sought a specific exemption on the insurance policy for me to be able to operate their "larger higher performing aircraft" like the C210 as I didn't meet the required minimums. They provided the ICUS and I was brought up to standard. The pilots tasked with supervising offered some good information and constantly challenged me with hypothetical discussions and "what ifs" - which allowed me to learn from their experiences.
By comparison, speaking with a handful of people who paid for their ICUS with the operator in my first paragraph, the "Supervisors" were actually not much more experienced than those they were "Supervising" and sat in the RHS, silent, watching as the VDO filled their log books one scintilating "larger higher performing aircraft" hour at a time.

[outnabout]

Poonpossum:

I don't know of any GA company in Aust where you can start as a newbie flying scenic in a C172 (or similar) and work your way up through the ranks to fly turboprops (willing to be corrected).

In the broken, fragmented career that is GA, it seems to me that you work your way through the ranks as your experience & skills grow, changing companies as required to climb the ladder. So to me, it makes sense that you acquire the skills as required, at the appropriate "step", rather than acquiring them all at the beginning (of your career), and getting rusty.

Just my 2 cents (not included - GST, en-route charges, fuel levy, landing fees, head taxes, credit card fees).

[Go West]

Do MECIR. Forget about ICUS. Go north. Look for job flying a single. Get a job. That is it for now. Call back when u have done that.

[gfunc]

-Flying school: “Actually, sorry, no job, thanks for your cash, now get out of my office”This is exactly what I fear will happen, based on the simple arithmetic of the number of people lined up for the ICUS program, the number of already qualified pilots and the current lack of PA-31s passing over my house in the early hours of the morning.

[poonpossum]

outnabout:

I wasn't directly saying that the hypothetical newbie stayed in the same company, but off the top of my head, since you asked:

JFC
Shine
Slingair
Chartair

[outnabout]

I stand corrected.

However, if you want to work from the bottom to the top, it would appear they are your targets. And if anyone can manage that, good luck to them.

However, it is my opinion that the majority of GA have to jump from company to company as their skills increase, and may have to pay for endorsements / ICUS along the way.

[Rogan82]

This thread seems familiar. I asked the same questions when holding a brand new CPL at the end of last century and received the exact same replies. My response... joined the Air Force and had command of a shiny, but rather old 4 engined bomber before I knew it!

My mate, same position, same questions, same responses. He chose the ICUS route. Not too long after that was lucky enough to be picked up by the red rat. He has a 747 and A380 endo- downside is that he has not taken off, landed or flown an approach in an aircraft that is above Mother Earth by more than a hydraulic jack in almost ten years.

It's just a job now for him, progression is stagnant and he had to ride it out. Me...made the jump, large aircraft command, instructing and looking at flying a shiny new big aircraft that I can actually takeoff and land. In the end take a leap and do what seems right for you. But don't quit when it gets tough.