Off topic faith discussion

[Rotoronin]

Speculating at this early stage is as ridiculous as praying, we'll eventually know what occurred, good luck to'em.






This thread has been created from the posts made in a thread about a fatal helicopter crash: they detracted from the thread and were initially deleted until I had time to move them.

Veteran Rotorheads will understand that historically we delete condolence and other fluff posts as being incidental to a proper discussion. This thread will (hopefully) give those who wish a place to have their say.

Senior Pilot

[Savoia]

Speculating at this early stage is as ridiculous as praying, we'll eventually know what occurred, good luck to'em.

If faith has no part in your life, fair enough, but do not criticise those who draw strength and hope from theirs.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pYxad2-Kd_k/UhfHJrpovWI/AAAAAAAAOEA/hxYaJqWazo0/w57-h41-no/Orange+ribbon.png (https://plus.google.com/photos/103091366291700372399/albums/5848098502427641073/5915415931792546898?banner=pwa&pid=5915415931792546898&oid=103091366291700372399)

[MacRS]

Well said Savoia, I'm sure we are all hoping and/or praying for the survival of the 3 missing.

[fenland787]

If faith has no part in your life, fair enough, but do not criticise those who draw strength and hope from theirsCouldn't agree more. 'Rotoronin' - your post is insensitive and inappropriate

[Rotoronin]

I appear to have been moderated. I'm not sure why, this is, after all a forum of free speech. All I said, as soon as people started to offer prayers and speculation is that, this does no good.

Speculation on unfounded and limited facts can cause untold harm, especially to the friends and family that may read these 'educated theories' on this forum. What if, after the AAIB have declared their findings, that doesn't fit as well as some Ppruner's theory, that friend or family member may not be able to believe what the AAIB found, and forever think that the truth lies elsewhere. These are how conspiracies are born.
Ideas, fellow pilots, once thought of as correct, are very difficult to remove.

As I understand it, someone angrily posted that their faith is very important to them, seemingly upset that I may consider prayer useless. I do, but that was not my point. My point was and still is, your 'prayers' may be offensive, this is not the place for them. Many pilots, including myself, are atheists, had 'prayers' been offered to the family and friends of people I know, you would receive at best, a 'stick your prayers up your arse', not everyone respects faith and many find it condescending, patronising and arrogant. Offer your condolences, your sorrow, your heartfelt sadness at their loss, offer help and understanding, sympathy if you have similarly lost, empathy if you haven't. Pray, by all means, but do not offer it where it may not be wanted, it's not about you, or your faith.

Look, I didn't mean to offend, being ex SAR and having led the life I have, gives me a harder shell than most, when you have encountered tragedy on a regular basis, it tends to harden your heart and instil hostility to those offering grand opinions with little evidence, it's not personal, it's a protective feeling towards the sufferers, I hope I have made myself clear.

So...'Do not speculate, do not offer anything that may not be comforting.'

Moderate that.

[African Eagle]

As I understand it, someone angrily posted that their faith is very important to them, seemingly upset that I may consider prayer useless. I do, but that was not my point. My point was and still is, your 'prayers' may be offensive, this is not the place for them. Many pilots, including myself, are atheists, had 'prayers' been offered to the family and friends of people I know, you would receive at best, a 'stick your prayers up your arse', not everyone respects faith and many find it condescending, patronising and arrogant. Offer your condolences, your sorrow, your heartfelt sadness at their loss, offer help and understanding, sympathy if you have similarly lost, empathy if you haven't. Pray, by all means, but do not offer it where it may not be wanted, it's not about you, or your faith.

Rotoronin you really are a total f***ing jerk.

You managed to p*** off a bunch of people yesterday and now you're trying to do it again today.

I live and work among many Muslims where 20 times a day I hear "Assalamu Alaikum!" or "inshallah" or some other Muslim expression. I'm a Christian but I don't tell them they can't express their faith.

You need to learn more tolerance and stop telling people what they can and cannot say when it comes to their faith.

Will the Moderators please take down this jerk's trash.

[HeliComparator]

African Eagle and Rotoronin, I'm sure those affected by this accident will be rivetted listening to your personal views on the subject of prayer. NOT. Maybe you should take it elsewhere? (like the carpark, for a good punchup)

[Rotoronin]

Faith has no place here, and it seems you are the ones who are showing agitation for no reason. How have I offended you? By simple reasoning? I have no wish to offend you and I belie ve fully that you have every right to express yourself and your religion, but not here. Not in this thread. Moderate me by all means. Strip me of my voice, it seems that some can only tolerate whatever suits themselves.

[African Eagle]

You can't tell people not to use the word "pray" just because prayer doesn't appeal to you and that's what you are asking people to do and its wrong.

There was no one asking you to become a Buddhist or a Jew or even a Christian but several people used the simple word "pray" and which is their cultural and religious right.

No one wants these issues discussed here - so why the hell did you bring it up.

Let those who want to offer their concern by using the word "pray" do so and let those who do not have the same freedom.

:mad:

[Rotoronin]

Look mate, I agree, I just heard from a mate that I'd become a hate figure from saying speculation and prayer won't help at this early stage, I'm genuinely not trying to be inflammatory. I desperately want to get off the subject, however, should I not be allowed to explain myself? I don't hate religion, I just think there's a time and a place for it and not everyone is comforted by it, is that so terrible?,

[African Eagle]

I suppose you're one of those people who tell the friends not to send them Christmas cards !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rotoronin]

Because some find prayer condescending, patronising and insulting. It's not my wish to upset you, or any faith, you are entitled to your beliefs. I happened to enjoy the beautiful architecture of Churches and Cathedrals and love having theological debates. I'm not a hater of Religion, I just think that it has no place here. It's just an opinion, no need to get your knickers in a twist mate..

[Savoia]

African Eagle: Take a deep breath.

Rotoronin: I was the first to respond to your comments last night and my reply conveyed no anger whatsoever only a simple sentence stating that your own lack of faith should not be the basis for silencing those who possess it.

Taking exception to someone using the single word 'pray' as our African friend has (not so eloquently) stated .. is indeed an intolerance.

I trust our fearless Moderator will sweep away all these posts so we can get back to the sad matter at hand.

[Rotoronin]

I love Xmas, don't be presumptuous. Look, I'll get me coat and bugger off. I was simply trying to explain my thinking, I have no problem with religion, but I know a lot of people who do, surely the first law of anything is be kind and considerate, that's all I'm saying. It's not about me or you, or anyone's faith, it's about the friends and families' of those that have endured this anguish, pain and sorrow.

I'm sorry I ever tried to explain myself, my friend advised me not to but I considered that a more informed declaration than previous would placate all those I'd upset, clearly not and for that I truly apologise to those I have upset, it was not my intention.

[Savoia]

Rotoronin: You don't have to go anywhere. An interest/involvement with rotary wing aviation is what unites us on Rotorheads and I am sure there is no malice felt toward you.

Having said this .. I think you need to realise that you did start this and that your comments (that prayer was "useless") were and are offensive to some.

[Rotoronin]

Yeah I suppose you're right, it may have been, is it so difficult to offer thoughts, sorrow and condolences.

Look I just wanted to make it right, I've clearly failed, apologies.

[Savoia]

Look I just wanted to make it right, I've clearly failed, apologies.


You have not failed.

I for one accept your apology and shall now keep a keen eye out for my new Rotorhead friend Rotoronin!

But .. we've created a page of 'mess' that Senior Pilot is going to have to clean up and so we owe him (and Rotorheads readers) an apology for that .. and which I offer.

[Rotoronin]

That's just a personal opinion, am I not entitled to that? You think I haven't prayed? I'm ex SAR, I've prayed alright, searching for people 12 hours straight, days at a time, not sleeping, was that them?, was that a buoy? Please don't let this child die, that child die, don't let him throw himself off the cliff, please let us find them! Did it work, did it ****, that's my opinion based on things that happened in our crew.

My only thoughts were to explain that not everyone appreciates prayer, especially when something else can console, and speculation causes more harm than good....in my opinion.

Seriously, I've learned my lesson. Reasoned thought is triumphed by emotive reasoning, and in a Pilot' forum?! I'm closing my account.

I'm off, my heartfelt and most sincere condolences to family and friends of those that died in this crash, lets hope the AAIB can ind out what occurred and make sure it never happens again.

[heliduck]

"Praying" for a good outcome in difficult circumstances & "Hoping" for a good outcome in difficult circumstances are the same thing depending on what you believe in. Unfortunately neither brings relief for those in trouble or their loved ones, the only consolation for those left behind is the knowledge that everything possible was done to try to prevent the occurrence in the first place. If this is not the case then both praying & hoping are hollow sentiments.

[HeliComparator]

I'm inclined to agree with rotoronin that the proliferation of "let's all pray for" is pretty sickening. If people want to pray, that's fine but don't presume that everyone else wants to. By the same token its wrong to rubbish those who do want to pray. Praying should be a personal thing, not used as a tool for whipping up sympathy or credibility. Mutual respect for each others views is what is appropriate IMO.

(Even though those believing in some listening god are a bit daft):eek:

[Neville Nobody]

I agree with Rotoronin. Leave off the "My invisible friends better than your invisible friend" stuff, if it makes you feel superior to go to church then do that and don't go sprouting off on an aviation forum. Go to the Blind faith forum.

[arismount]

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
--(Ironically...) Paul the Apostle

"What is Truth?"
--Pontius Pilate

[arismount]

"Religion" is nothing more or less than how the individual explains the inexplicable and rationalizes the irrational. It is the means by which the individual deals with the unknown and the unknowable.

As such, atheism and agnosticism are in themselves "religions."

Some individuals are offended when others profess religious beliefs which differ from their own, and this is most regrettable.

[SASless]

I just heard from a mate that I'd become a hate figure from saying speculation and prayer won't help at this early stage...

From that statement I take it there is a point at which Prayer helps?

I did not see you as a "Hate Figure" but rather one that deserves pity.

Offending people by challenging their Faith on an anonymous forum such as Rotorheads just seems rather crass.

You should reserve those comments for Jet Blast.

I am not a "religious" person....far from it....but I have the decency to respect those who do ascribe to Faith and see it as being offensive for someone saying what you have in your original post.

No mattter how you spin it....bad taste is simply rude.

I suppose we are far more tolerant when it comes to Religion in my Country as part of the reason it came about was so many folks sought refuge from intolerance all those years ago.

I am not sure Prayer works.....but I know for a certainty it does not hurt.

That seems a simple standard by which to judge it.


An aside....I had prepared a response very similar in Tone to that posted by African Eagle....but after a moment of silent prayer and a cup of coffee....I decided no to post it. Perhaps my Prayer was answered by some force prompted AE to make that Post in my stead.

[bigglesbutler]

If some one says to me "God speed" "may god be with you" etc. etc. I don't get upset I look at the person saying it. If they mean genuine care for me and my family I accept it as a human token of care and am grateful. I'm not religious person and have no time for religion given the trouble it can cause between people, but it is simply that persons culture of care.

Perhaps when you read someone saying we should "Pray" for them maybe think of words suitable to you along the lines of "I hope this turns out okay".

As I say it is the underlying intent of the words you should concentrate on not the actual words.

Peace out

Si

[Agaricus bisporus]

Rororonin, spot on. This forum seems to have developed a bizarre habit of forumites offering "condolences" and additions of "RIP" from people who have never met and do not know victims - this is inappropriate, mawkish, patronising and self-indulgent and so is offering prayers. You don't say "RIP" when someone you don't know has died, that's just weird! In fact, RIP is not something anybody says, ever, it is something that is carved on a headstone, not articulated out loud. (unless, maybe, by the vicar at a funeral service)

Seems to me some people just don't know what to do or say and instead of realising they shouldn't/needn't say anything go blabbing the first thing that occurs to them.

As for praying, didn't Jesus have something to say about ostentatious prayers in public? Matthew 6:5

I'm sure the same sentiment goes for ostentatious pretentions of grief for people you've never met too. Do you stop off at a complete stranger's funeral and offer the grieving widow your "condolences"? Of course not, that would be crass beyond belief, so why do it here?

Nothing stinks quite like fake piety.

Grieving for an audience...
Etiquette: Grieving for an Audience | Persephone Magazine (http://persephonemagazine.com/2013/06/06/etiquette-grieving-for-an-audience/)

[industry insider]

I love this thread.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose. But if someone expresses religious view to me and expects me to show tolerance, please expect me to share with you my militant atheism and show equal tolerance.

[Geoffersincornwall]

... hear we go.

As if it wasn't bad enough that religion has caused more grief in the history of the world than any other aspect of human activity. We have to import it into our little world where, guess what? It causes more grief.

Give it a break guys, those that believe have a right to do so and as long as they don't come bothering me I'm happy to let them. It's a pity that they appear to be a little less tolerant than their beliefs tell them they should be.

:{

G

[iamthetroll]

Boy I caused quite the stir. I suspect it was my comment wherein I said I will continue to pray for those missing.

My statement did not imply anything other than my well wishing for those at risk. Rotorin, I wasn't offended by your remark please spare your apologies, you owe me none. I simply found it bleak. I would rather you continued to make contributions to future threads without fear of being chewed out by other Ppruners, I'm certain your experience would bring many valuable contributions to a variety of threads.

HC: I didn't try to rope anyone into pray with me. It is simply how I instinctively send my well wishes. Please don't feel I was trying to tar you, and everyone around me with my brush.

Neville: I never mentioned my God nor "invisible friend". You did. Nor did I try to condescend you by saying "mine was better than yours". You did. Therefore your post did not address any issue previously brought up, in fact you raised one or two new discussion points yourself. So to take your own advice: perhaps it is you that needs to move your post to the blind faith forum.