RAF F4 Phantom in the 70's

[CoffmanStarter]

I don't think this has been posted before (apologies if it has) ... cracking bit of film of a cracking aeroplane :ok:

F-4 Phantoms in the 70s - YouTube

And a little something for our man from 43 :ok:

F4 PHANTOM RAF 1974 - YouTube

Coff.

[Ubehagligpolitiker]

Great - reminds me of the RAF that I loved, lots of aircraft, different types most very noisy

[Courtney Mil]

Oh I could watch it all day. Mrs C just commented, "fine looking beast." I wonder if she was refering to me or the 43 Sqn F4?:ok:

[Haraka]

Yup!, I was on 41 (F).

A Big, Ugly, Noisy, Powerful and Menacing presence.
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AND we also had Phantoms. :)

[Wander00]

CM - Nah, more likely next door's cat. At least would be here

[Courtney Mil]

Naaa. She hates cats. Can't be that. Any better ideas?:eek:

[NutherA2]

And a little something for our man from 43 http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Make that "Our men from 43" thanks for the clip, might have been Roger Beazley doing the aeros?

[OutlawPete]

There's a few Fighting Cocks around! Great video Coff.:D

[BEagle]

For even more nostalgia, I recommend the phollowing DVD, which includes:

Intro: Includes lots of carrier shots of UK Phantoms phlying from the USS Saratoga.

Phantom Pilot (1973, 39 min): RAF phlying training via. Biggin Hill, Henlow, Church Phenton, Leeming, Valley and TWU to Coningsby.

Oversight (1976; 25 min): Made using real actors, a good account of sqn pressures on groundcrew and the resulting loss of a Phantom due to insecure wing pins.

Low Flying Training (1971; 23 min): Really ham stuff! It was replaced by a less awphul 'Low Level Navigation' philm a phew years later.

Phinally, a composite of various US Phantom clips entitled 'F-4 Phantom USA' made in 2008.

Available from all the usual sources - just enter the post title into your search engine.

Mercifully, only about 15 sec of clattercopters - and I don't think I spotted anyone wearing pongo pyjamas either....just blues, overalls or phlying suits.

[CoffmanStarter]

I'm glad that brightened up the evening for some of you chaps :ok:

This pic also appeared earlier this week in support of the forthcoming Leuchars Airshow ... truly a magnificent beast (hardware that is chaps) ... the 70's camouflage scheme just looked the dogs bo11ocks IMHO.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps7a437be1.jpg

Any claims to being in the picture either driving or naving :ok:


If only I had been a better aviator :(

Coff.

[54Phan]

Very nice, I am most appreciative. PH4s Phorever!

[OutlawPete]

Beagle, that Oversight film did the rounds and got the point across very well. Like the best of the flight safety films it was based on a real life situation. Another good one is the Harrier/Belize/ejection seat pin story with Richard O'sullivan in the lead role.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Not all 1970s - some later:

Phantom QRA - YouTube

PHANTOM PHINALE SECTION 5 - YouTube (others on same channel)

F-4 Phantom. Practice display Leuchars airshow 1992 - YouTube

F4 Phantom West Malling Airshow 1988 - YouTube

Let's not forget how hairy landing the Phantom FG1 on HMS Ark Royal must have been for the FAA and RAF aircrew on 892 Sqn - not a lot of margin for error on a deck much smaller than USN Forrestal / Nimitz Class carriers of the day:

HMS Ark Royal aviation opération - YouTube

HMS Ark Royal alongside USS Nimitz

File:HMS Ark Royal USS Nimitz Norfolk1 1978.jpeg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HMS_Ark_Royal_USS_Nimitz_Norfolk1_1978.jpeg)

[thing]

Brilliant, thanks for all of those chaps. Finest jet I ever worked on and probably the best time in the RAF.

OCU 74-78.

Edit: OT but does anyone know what happened to Bob Prest? I heard he was flying freighters somewhere but that was a while ago.

[CoffmanStarter]

Great! Would it be too much to ask for some Logbook "keepsake" pics to be shared on the thread :ok:

[sandozer]

Beautiful picture, I was on 43 Sqdn:ok: at the time as a Nav Inst tech. Managed to get a flight in XV576 "D", just visible in your picture. It had just finished major servicing and the flight purpose was an air test. Pilot was Flt Lt Richmond, top man ! Great times, any more gems like this picture lying around ?

[johnfairr]

Saw Bob P at the F4 TDPU last year, it was, I think, his first appearance. He and another chum, John S......n pitched up together. Bob is flying for Qatar Airways and lives out there, John is another airline pilot, though he mentioned some slight medical problem. Bob hasn't changed a bit since we met in 1973. Great bloke. :ok::ok:

[Chris Kebab]

Great photo.

So why did we have such humungous registration markings under the wings in those days?

[NutLoose]

They originated post WW2 to stop bored aircrew doing low level stuff for the fun of it, made them easy to identify.

[ExRAFRadar]

Dictionary Entry -

Warplane : See F4 Phantom

[thing]

Saw Bob P at the F4 TDPU last year, it was, I think, his first appearance. He and another chum, John S......n pitched up together. Bob is flying for Qatar Airways and lives out there, John is another airline pilot, though he mentioned some slight medical problem. Bob hasn't changed a bit since we met in 1973. Great bloke.Good to know he's still alive and kicking. I remember around '75 he drove a black (naturally) TR6 that every man and his dog was envious of.

[fantom]

XV431 before:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/xv431.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/minlgw/media/xv431.jpg.html)

[fantom]

...and after:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/bentphantom.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/minlgw/media/bentphantom.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Fantom ...

Ouch! XV431 finally end up as a CAT5 following a take off from Bruggen where the wings weren't locked ... crew safely banged out

Ejection History : RAF Phantom XV431 (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/aircraft_by_type/RAF_Phantom/pilley_ray.htm)

[thing]

I remember 416 going in at Coningsby, both crew banged out. Bit surreal watching it, it took me a while to figure out the two 'chutes floating down were the crew. Not something you see every day.

[Haraka]

I remember around '75 he drove a black (naturally) TR6 that every man and his dog was envious of.

Indeed. I paced him down the A1 quite well until abeam Hatfield. Then he got bored and by the North Circ. was well gone. TR6 v MGB(GT) - left me wishing I had the V8!

[Courtney Mil]

Back to 431 for a moment, I found this account quite interesting:

An Accident Waiting to Happen
"If ever there was an accident waiting to happen it was this one. Having bought the Phantom as a stop gap measure the Brits managed to double the price and make it go slower. Principally this feat was achieved by cramming into the fuselage the Rolls Royce Spey engine.



One other way was to make the wings fold manually so there existed a situation where the wings were down but needed locking by an engineer with a brace and socket. A really nice added touch was to remove the wing pin warning lights in the cockpit so that not only could the wings be down and unlocked but there was nothing to warn a pilot as he lined up for take off.


All the warning lights were out.!


In the case of XV 431 the tiny wing spigots had been oversprayed green which blended in perfectly with the camouflaged wing."


The Ejection


"The ejection was interesting. The aircraft became airborne but immediately pitched to the vertical and I was sure it was going over on its back. Full forward pressure on the stick did nothing and at about a hundred feet rolling slightly to port I ordered my navigator to eject.


In the event I left the aircraft about 0.6 of a second ahead of him which in the event saved both our lives.



In those days there were no explosive bolts on the canopies and the seat would not fire until the canopy interlock had been removed. My canopy went over Kevin's canopy just as his was leaving, and I passed over Kevin just as he was rising up the rails.


My rocket motor lit at the advertised 6 feet and lightly toasted Kevin.
No time to lower the personal survival pack and without a full parachute we both hit the ground very hard just as XV431 blew up 100 feet from the QRA pen housing 4 nuclear loaded F4's.


Shortly afterwards the canopies were fitted with explosive bolts and the operating procedure in a time critical situation was changed so that the pilot left without warning, save for a loud bang, which would catch the attention of the most docile navigator.



Alas nothing was done about those little old warning lights and eight years later only the sharp eyes of a caravan controller saved yet another one of Her Majesty"s precious Phantoms."


Source:PILLEY_Ray (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/RAF_Phantom/pilley_ray.htm)

[CoffmanStarter]

I may be missing something here ... But even if the wings needed locking manually ... Why on earth remove the warning light cockpit bulbs ?

The warning lights would have hardly been a distraction ... more a reassurance for the crew I would have thought. More importantly why wasn't it recommended to replace the bulbs after this terrible accident ?

[CoffmanStarter]

For those interested ... Here is a listing of the RAF F-4K (FG1)/F-4M (FGR2) and F-4J(UK) lost in service. Additional info on prior RN F-4K losses also included.

RIP to those crews who lost their lives.

UK Phantom Losses (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/F-4_Phantom_RAF.htm)

[CoffmanStarter]

I've done a bit more digging on the pic I posted @#10 yesterday.

I believe this is a very early picture, possibly taken as 43 Squadron became equipped with the Phantom. If you care to look at G banking away and compare with XT879 in the foreground, you'll notice that the Squadron's chequerboard stripe looks as if it is being "sucked in" to the intakes on XT879. Apparently this was the initial delivery default paint job that was subsequently corrected to the positioning (fuselage roundel moved aft) shown on G (4 squares showing as opposed to 2 and a bit).

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zps7a437be1.jpg

It would be great to try and fix the date ...

Best

Coff.

[Courtney Mil]

Coff, as far as I know, the cockpit warning on the teleight panel was removed because the wing lock was no longer an aircrew action. A bit like having a caption for an undercarriage lock in place. The telelight remained in the F4K (FG1) because it was something you could, and often did, do from the cockpit. In the FGR2, checking that the wings were locked was a part of the walk round. Not saying that's a good reason, it's just my understanding of the situation.

[thing]

I remember at Coningsby the crew chief check was amended to include 'wing lock indicators flush' or something close to that after a floppy wing incident.

Edit: Just remembered, some F4's had a manual wing fold operation and some were hydraulic. Can't remember if the hydraulic ones had wing indicators.

[CoffmanStarter]

Cheers Courtney ... Still feels a little strange to disable a servicible warning cap even if it was no longer an Aircrew FRC action other than during the pre flight walk round check ...

Edit: Cheers Thing :ok:

[walbut]

I was not involved in the removal of the wing fold lock warning light on the FGR 2 but I think Courtney's explanation for the logic behind it is probably correct.
I did have a minor involvement in the wing fold mechanism in the 1970's. As a young and inexperienced Mechanical Systems at HSA Brough I had to investigate a problem which, hopefully, I can explain better now than 40 years ago.
The issue was that as the wing fold hinge pins and bushes wore, the outer wing would drop slightly relative to the inner wing, when unlocked, so the locking pins and holes did not line up. The more the wear on the bushes, the greater the amount that the outer wing had to be lifted as the locking pins were inserted and the greater the loads required to drive in the locking pins with the brace that operated the mechanism.
I had to write a DOI (Drawing Office Instruction) to change the adjustment procedure which had to be signed by all the relevent tech departments, and I went to the Head of Structures. a notoriously crotchety engineer at the time. I obviously did not explain the requirement very well, as he could not understand why the locking pin loads went up as the hinge pin bush clearance increased. Eventually after an increasingly acrimonious attempt to reach an understanding I was told to stop wasting his time and that I was going to be reported to the Head of Systems for insubordination. Rather nervously I reported to the Head of Systems to warn him what was going to happen. Don't worry son he answered, he's just a miserable old bugger like the rest of the stressmen. I never heard any more of the disciplinary issue and got the DOI signed by Frank Frodin, who was the Phantom Structures Group Leader instead.

Several years later, after the Alconbury accident, I was also involved in re-writing the rigging procedure for the radome locking mechanism over centre latch.

[thing]

Excellent post Walbut, it was indeed true that the locking pins needed some serious waggling of the outboard section to get them in place. I also have a half memory of the pin housings fracturing, did you ever hear of that? I may be mistaken.

[sandozer]

As regards the date, no fighting cock on the Fin, so definitely pre 1971.

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Sandozer ... I agree it's an early photo maybe even to mark 43 attaining Front Line status with the F4 :ok:

I remember a really great picture of the Coningsby Flight-Line showing some 20 odd Phantoms ... anyone got a copy to share here ?

Coff.

[Rhino power]

Is this the one you're thinking of Coff?

http://www.phantomreunion.talktalk.net/images/64-228/aircraft/228line1969.jpg (credit - Pete Mears)

Plenty more great photos on this website- Home of The Phantomeers (http://www.phantomreunion.talktalk.net/)

-RP

[CoffmanStarter]

Cheers Rhino ...

Yep I've seen that one :ok:

I think 29's aircraft were in the foreground on the one I'm hoping someone has a copy of to share.

Coff.

[Courtney Mil]

Impressive pic, Rhino. Three points: 2nd a/c in - rear seat scissor shackle not properly connected. 5th a/c in - static vent bungs not removed (starboard side). 7th a/c in - crew cheif has hi-viz jacket on back-to-front. The rest are a bit far away to tell.

[CoffmanStarter]

Glad to see you've still got 20/20 there Courtney :D

Mind you 12 in ... the Nav's left his Mars Bar on the seat pan :E

[big v]

And the seventh in has a dodgy trigger circuit breaker.......

[Courtney Mil]

the Nav's left his Mars Bar on the seat pan

That's not a mars bar, Mate. :sad:

[WH904]

:)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/Shefftim/F4nose.jpg

[glad rag]

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/f-4e_gr_16.jpg

the wingman will follow

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/f-4e_gr_17.jpg

[kaitakbowler]

The 431 accident and subsequent Board of Inquiry report was part of the SNCO management course (late '70's RAF Newton), including the flight safety film mentioned. The film was played up to the point of ejection then a discussion took place on the lead up to the accident, after which the BoI report was discussed. I seem to remember that the board noted that the ejection(s) had been premature, The crew had "flown" a sim sortie that included an ejection whilst a jet was being prepped for them (their original jet, which had hydraulic wing fold had gone down in the morning), so the board thought they were "primed" for an ejection. As our discussions were ongoing the Ch Tech instructor asked the Flt Sgt Painter sitting next to me why he wasn't contributing, to which he replied along the lines of " If you care to look at the BoI's list of witnesses you will see my name, I saw the whole thing from the side of the runway"

[CoffmanStarter]

904 ... Another stunning pic :D:D:D:D

[claron]

Phantom QRA vid. Wow I had forgotten all about that. We must have done the scramble about half a dozen times, what with knocking the camera over at least once. and all you saw was the top of my head strapping the driver in.
Happy Days!!!:D

[fantom]

904

Flaps and close; following a Herc?

[WH904]

Yes, that shot was taken a couple of days before 74 Squadron disbanded, they put-up a formation for some happy snaps, off the starboard parachute door of a Hercules:-

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/Shefftim/f4s.jpg

The tail codes do spell "Tigers" but I'm afraid my slide scan isn't all that good- sorry!

The nose-on shot was taken en-route back to Wattisham - one of the guys decided to formate on the Hercules ramp, but most of the dimwit press photographers on board had gone to settle into their seats for landing by that stage, so I think I was only one of a couple or so guys who actually got the nose-on shots :)

[Rhino power]

Flaps and close; following a Herc?

Yes, its one of a series of photos from a photo sortie in October 1992 to mark the F-4s retirement from RAF service, which was a few days later at the end of the month... :{

Peter R Foster took some excellent shots which you can see here- Aircraft in action the pre-digital years - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40263244@N04/sets/72157627617958343/page4/)

-RP

[WH904]

Don't know about a series but there were lots of people on that Hercules... the mighty Phantom was very popular!

[ORAC]

Speaking of outer wings, I believe it was XV405 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=82616) which crashed when an outer wing folded and detached in flight?

As I recall it, and it was a long time ago, the pilot managed managed to regain control after the wing separated and could maintain straight and level flight, albeit at high speed. He asked for advice as to whether he should do a low speed check and the Duty Pilot in the tower suggested he should see how it handled flaps down.

The obliging pilot selected flaps down..... and had a HYD failure as all the fluid poured out of the severed pipes at the end of wing; at which control was lost and they ejected.

Again, IIRC, the pilot was subsequently found at fault for attempting to lower the flaps, since he was the aircraft captain and the DP should have been ignored.

[MPN11]

Cheap camera held at arms' length by the hose on a HercDet C-130K, Stanley, Summer 83.
F-4 being flown by the Stn Cdr, then Gp Capt Mike Graydon, who went on to greater things.

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/Graydon.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/Graydon.jpeg.html)

[ORAC]

I have a DVD copy of a VHS tape obtained from an LU nav many years ago. He liked filming and it's mainly air to air QRA but also has F4s in the Falklands and a C130 trip to South Georgia for an air mail drop. Falklands/SG audio track is, I think, Fingal's Cave

Don't remember his name to ask, so I don't think I can put it up on youtube, but I can run a copy off if requested. I have another from Mount Alice with various F4/Measles Rock fly-bys, (and no, it doesn't have the infamous F4 hill climb. That was deliberately omitted).

[ACW599]

I've been on several courses where the Cranwell graduation F-4 flypast is mentioned in hushed tones. Allegedly there is a video recording but no-one ever seems to have seen it. Does it exist?

[teeteringhead]

There certainly is a video of the Cranwell "flypast". It used to be shown at Flying Supervisors' and/or Flight Safety Courses. Seen it myself a coupla times. :eek:

Lots of Mums' (and Cadets') hats all over the shop! :D

[Dan Gerous]

MPN11, that was the standard jolly shot, a lot of the folk got down there, when they got a flight on the Herc. I never got one, as the loadie wouldn't let me anywhere near the hole to get any pics.:sad: Still a great flight though.

[wiggy]

There certainly is a video of the Cranwell "flypast"

Yep

I was e-mailed a copy by a friend :oh: which I used to able to play on my old PC and as teeteringhead has said there were hats all over the place....:ok:

unfortunately due to IT issues i.e. new machine and windows 8 :mad: I can't play/open the darn thing at the moment...give me time, I'll see what I can do.

[1.3VStall]

ORAC,

The XV405 crash was nothing to do with an outer wing. They had a hyd failure, after which they lowered the gear with no flap and then lost control.