My dream - advice please (collective thread)

[artie711]

Hello everyone! Ever since I was little, I've wanted to become an airline pilot. Now i'm 15 and started my PPL training earlier this year and it's been going very well. I live in France but I was born in the USA and lived there for 14 years and I am fluent in both languages. I finish high school in 2 years so I started looking at some flight schools or colleges. I am most likely not going to stay in France or Europe because I won't be able to get a EASA class 1 medical but I will be able to pass a FAA. Basically, I don't know which path to take to become a pilot... At first I wanted to join a professional pilot program here in Europe which includes all licenses and many ratings as well as some ATP training. But I wont be able to attend because of the class 1 medical problem. So now i'm focused on going back to the United States.

I was thinking of joining a flight school (no college) such as Pan Am academy or Phoenix East Aviation, get my licenses and ratings, however, training only takes 8-12 months and I would be under 23 years of age so I wouldn't even be close to having my ATPL (hours and age requirements) so job wise I would have some trouble, and the fact that I wouldn't have a degree.

Another option is going to a college such as ERAU which looks very nice, plus they have a huge number of different courses. Only problem with a college is that it's very expensive in the USA (I know flight training cost a lot). The advantage with this option is that I would have a degree.

I also have another question: What kind of jobs can "new pilots" (23 years and younger) get? Assuming that they have PPL, IR/ME, and CPL but no ATPL. Do they work for charter airlines? Because last I checked most of them require the ATP written.

Well thats my question :p. Hope some of you can give my some advice on what I should do. Also, is a degree REALLY preferred in aviation, or is it experience? Because who is most likely to get hired? A 25 year old with a degree and 2000 hours or a 40 year old with 25,000+ hours and no degree...

Thanks!

[Selfmade92]

all im gonna say is, don't go to aviation colleges/universities. waste of money.

to build hours, you can do flight instructing, banner towing, all that kind of stuff. preferrably live in california or florida. To fly for the Airlines you'll need to be 23 and have an ATPL.

Good luck.

edit: regarding the degree, Delta and the big players in the US require a Bachelor degree, few regionals now put down for preferred minimums associates degree.

[IXUXU]

Advice on becoming a pilot?

yes.

Don´t do it.:=

[artie711]

Why do you say that?

[paco]

Because economically, it's a non-starter.

You often spend a lot of money to get a job that pays very little in most cases ($20 000 p.a. as an F/O in the US), is no longer a career but a series of short jobs, mostly subject to poor management.

Some would say that if you had £100K burning a hole in your pocket it would be better spent starting another business.

I say that if it is genuinely your ambition, go for it, because life should be spent doing what you love (otherwise why bother?) but you should at least have your eyes open to reality.

If you are not sure, don't do it.

OK, back to some of your questions. A degree is not required to do the job, but some customers list it as a preferred option because of its perceived value (same as listing an IR for a VFR job).

I wouldn't restrict your thinking to airlines - there are plenty of other jobs that are rewarding - for example, if you got a float rating and built up some time (they like at least 500 hours) you could end up flying fire bombers.

It's good that you are bilingual - it's a good upgrade for a low time pilot.

And good luck!

[artie711]

I am aware that the job pays very poorly at first (10-15yrs) and that it's very expensive. Everyone talks about those two topics. But I know this is what I want to do later on. I have an appointment with an AME in Paris who will tell be whether I can get an FAA or EASA class 1 medical. It would be a lot easier for me to stay in Europe (financially speaking) and because there are some great flight schools here with Modular or Integrated flight training.

One more question: Lets say I go to the USA and join a flight school (Pan Am academy for example). I start at 18 and finish before my 19th birthday. I will have my PPL, IR/ME, and CPL. Considering I have only that, what kind of jobs are open to me besides flight instructor? Oh and we know a pilot who owns his own corporate/charter company so maybe networking and asking around there might be the way to go!

[darkroomsource]

what kind of jobs are open to me besides flight instructor?

Honestly? not many.
To find out, why not spend some time researching the job market, looking for actual jobs that you could do with those qualifications (as a minimum).
you'll find that there aren't many.

Then, do a bit of research as to how many people go through the training to get the same level of qualifications...

What you will find is that the odds are not in your favour.

Only you can decide if you have the tenacity to actually get a job flying. You will not find it easy, or even hard, or even very hard, you will find it close to impossible. That doesn't mean you won't get a job, but it means you will work harder to get that first job than you can possibly imagine at this point.

You say you have a friend who flies, and might be able to network, why not talk to them about your chances of working for/with them with minimal qualifications. Maybe they can give you some encouragement.

My advice, is to fly for fun, get your PPL, get a nice job doing something you like to do, and fly on the weekends. Then flying will never be a chore, but only a pleasure.

[pull-up-terrain]

My advice is to have a career/other qualifications to fall back on before you go down the pilot route.

[paco]

If it's really what you want to do, go for it, as I mentioned before. Otherwise you will always be wondering. But networking is a major ploy in getting a job. Use all your friends!

[artie711]

Thanks a lot guys! I will see weather I can do my training in Europe since i'm more interested in the flight schools here. Just need to get my eyes checked out from an AME

[cosmick251]

Personaly, I think a ft-programm in association with a major airline is the only reasonable way ... at least for me it was. No cost risk + a secure job afterwards.
Well , I don t know, if there is an Air France FT-programm - check it out,mate!

[artie711]

Yes i'm going to try and do an airline based training program (Oxford, Belgian Flight School...). Air France has one, however it requires a selection process at L'ENAC which only takes a small number of candidates who apply, so for me it's a bit of a wast e of time...

[maxed-out]

Artie711

You are 15 years old. If you think embarkingon a selection process like Enac is a waste of your precious time, then you have an attitude problem.

[artie711]

And why would you say that? Besides i'm just saying to apply for a cadet program for Air France requires 2 extra years of "classe preparatoire" which is a preparation for engineering schools. Then you have to participate in a "concours" or a competition where there is a huge number of people who apply and only a few are accepted. So I don't think it's an "attitude problem", but i'm just being realistic and I don't want to take 2-3 years after secondary school just to be rejected at the last step.

[darkroomsource]

I think that says it right there.
If you're not willing to do 2 years in the HOPE of getting accepted, then you're in for a shock, a big one.
You will spend a long time and lots of money getting the 'ratings' and 'certificates', only to find that you can expect to spend years looking for that first job, or working grunt jobs, or instructing, hoping, year after year, for the opportunity that you seem to think will be easy to get.

Talk to your friend who has that company and see if he'll hire you with just a CPL? or what it would take for you to be qualified, and how long and how much that will take...

[artie711]

I understand what your trying to say, but I think your understanding it wrong. I mean I don't want to do those 2 extra years because I am fairly certain I wont be able to get accepted into the program, however, I know that getting accepted into a flight school in Europe is hard work but that is something I KNOW I can achieve, so that's what i'm going for. And I know I will spend time getting my ratings and certificates but in the end I know I will have them.

[cosmick251]

I am not sure, if you can say, that the selection process is hard work.
If you have the required ability, you will succeed.

If you don t succeed, especially to take the last hurdle, where is checked, if you fullfill the airlines specific profile... this has something to mean .. in my opinion at least.

I do know some guys, that failed to take this and not just with one airline... went to flight school, spend a load of money to get ther licence.. and then, when it s about finding a job, they face same hurdle again... unfortunately they never made it to a major airline.

So, the risk is very high, to end with debts and no work...

[Ben-Stoke]

I'm new to posting on this forum, but I'm 16 (2 months of being 17), I'm going to College to study - Maths, Physics, I.T and Accounting. However I have dreams and ambitions to be a Commercial Airline Pilot. I have wanted to do this for quite some time, since I was around the age of 10.

What I want opinions for off of you guys on here who will know a considerable amount more than me is:
If I were to do my Private Pilots License now, what would be a route after I were to finish at College (age 18)? - I have seen someone who has done their PPL and gone onto doing their ATPL at Bristol GS
After I finish College, I would be thinking of going to either OAA or CTC, would you recommend?

[Buggington]

Ben,

I'm someone who's a couple of years further down the line from you - I'm eighteen and making the decision on whether or not to become a pilot. I've been looking into it and researching it for over two years.

I don't know how much you know, but there are two main ways of training - integrated and modular. A quick search on this forum will reveal that the advantages and disadvantages of each have been discussed again and again and again.

This person you're talking about has done it (or at least started doing it) through the modular route, meaning that they can do things in stages, stopping and starting and paying as they go. This is cheaper, but airlines don't like it as much because the training normally hasn't been done in one hit.

CTC and OAA tend to do Integrated courses - in other words, nought to pilot in eighteen months. All the training done in one hit, costing about £20k more. Airlines tend to prefer this route.

Doing your PPL and then going through to CTC or OAA would be kind of like mixing these two up. That being said, CTC offer a discount for those who have a PPL already, so it might be helpful. Note that the National Private Pilot's Licence (NPPL) doesn't count towards it, and you may make use of it on your own.

That being said, there is no way that having a PPL could be a disadvantage, assuming you have the money for it.

While you're thinking about becoming a pilot, look into the costs of training (it's not cheap, but in the last month there has been a change to the system which means you can put up to £42k on the student loans system - this is just over half the cost of the basic training - a CTC Wings Integrated course will set you back £69,000) and the starting salaries of pilots.

Hope this helps - sorry for the essay :)

[Ben-Stoke]

Thanks for the reply Buggington, thanks for all the relative information. I knew already about some of the things that you mentioned such as the Intergrated and Modular courses.

Do you know how much a Modular course would cost at CTC?

Thanks :)

[Buggington]

I'm not too sure which is the CTC Modular route, but I think it's the Wings Takeoff, as below.

CTC Wings Takeoff | CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/takeoff)

Prices can be found here (http://www.ctcwings.com/takeoff/finance), but I think there's something missing. I added up the values in the table and it came out as £36k.

Even at smaller flight schools the costs come out at circa £50k for a modular course, so I would say something's missing. They might have done it on absolute minimum hours (I wouldn't be surprised), but I would fire off an email to them to find out how much it would cost.

Do you have any plans to visit any of the flight schools? Before you set your heart on any school, visit them a few times. While Oxford and CTC are pretty much the same on paper, I felt personally wouldn't have felt comfortable spending £100,000 of my money with them and despite having visited other training schools which offer an integrated course I still like CTC the most.

I might add that this is just my opinion and that I'm not trying to sell you CTC - go where you feel comfortable (if/when you make the decision).

[CPL]

Friend of mine has just gone CTC finishing off. he had a ppl and ATPL exams complete. Cost £37000 for the rest to be done and an additional £7000 for an MCC and other bits and bats that they can wank about and hopefully get a job quicker. Do your college course and get high grades and then you can always have something to fall back on over time maybe go uni. the industry at the moment isnt the best but if its something you want to do then go for it, no ones stopping you from flying. Remember don't do the work for the money

with that said, ive doing modular. outcome overall cost will be around £30-40k and im just on to doing my CPL. There will be many people in my position that read this and all i can say is Good luck guys. Hopefully we will all be up there one day. Hopefully

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Chaps,

Its all well and good diving into training, however, one of the FIRST things you should consider is getting a class 1 medical. If, for any reason you are not granted one from the CAA any training you do, will be a waste of time and money, so book yourself an appointment with the CAA and get it.

There is lots of useful info on this site using the search function, regarding pros and cons of all routes in the industry and lots of sound advice and experience from guys that have been there and done it.

The whole process will require a tremendous amount of research and thought. It will also require a tremendous amount of dedication and hard work, and lots of ups and downs, however, if you love flying and aviation, the rewards it brings are very satisfying.

I wish you all the best with it.

Cheers.

[Buggington]

I second CAT3C's idea.

Just thought of the following:

If you're bored and have half an hour to spare, then I would recommend you watch the programme below. I watched it earlier; it gives you a pretty good idea of what you might be getting into and the current state of the industry. I apologise if it's a little harsh, but it will give you an excellent idea of what people are talking about on this forum when they complain about how they're treated in a company.

Of course, Ryanair is the lowest of the low, but at the moment it (or EasyJet) is likely to be where you are having finished training.

Dispatches - Ryanair: Secrets from the Cockpit - Channel 4 (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-136/episode-1)

[Ben-Stoke]

Thanks for the great replies, I was thinking of going to look around some local flying schools soon and see what I think and what they have to say. Once I am in my second year of college, I was thinking of going to look around the larger flying schools such as Oxford and CTC.

I hear from my one of my friends Dads that doing the Modular route 9/10ths of the time works out cheaper.

After I have had a look around the local schools and 100% put my mind on what route I am going to take I shall arrange a Class 1 medical.

This time last year, I did my first flying taster/lesson and thoroughly enjoyed it at Blackpool, just thought I'd let you all know

[Ben-Stoke]

Regarding the Class 1 medical - When I was about 12 I had a corneal lacceration basically a scratch and small tear to the cornea, however it has healed 100% and I would never have known it happened.

I just wanted to know whether this could make me fail the medical.

I only though of this because I was looking at the medical review sheet on the CAA's website.

[Daydreaming]

I am contemplating becoming a pilot. I have worked in a few different industries in the past and am now thinking of moving into aviation to become a pilot.

I have never been that person who as a kid always wanted to be a pilot. I have flown for a few hours and enjoyed it, but never was the type of person who wanted to be a pilot and only that. I have lots of fleeting interests and am nervous that I will pile 100,000 dollars into flying and after a few years I'll want to move on and do something else.

My father was a pilot and I guess I never wanted to follow his footsteps as a kid I was more interested in creative fields and carving my own path. As I got to my mid twenties it hit me "why have I never thought about being a pilot"? I began researching, asking more questions and getting excited about the prospect. I applied for a couple of cadetships that I was eligible for and was rejected on multiple occasions. This obviously affected my confidence and I now am questioning myself as to whether this is a smart move.

I wonder if there is anyone else out there who has been in a similar situation or knows of anyone who is in the same boat who can share their experiences?

If not feel free to chime in and give your thoughts and opinions. Is flying really for those who cannot bear doing anything else with their lives?

[Malkovitch]

Hi,
First of all I have done lots of research but the more I read the more disheartened I get.
I am 34 and moved to Brugge, Belgium 2 years ago. My partner is from here and she wanted to move back. I have spent that time learning the language (Dutch) whilst working part time for a large animal pharmacy. (I did 12 years in England as a Veterinary Nurse, GF is a Vet).
Now that my language studies have finished and my original job doesn't really exist here in Belgium I decided to look into fulfulling my lifelong dream of becoming a pilot.
I recently (2 weeks ago) had my COMPASS selection test for the BAFA flight school in Antwerp and I'm pleased to say that I passed. I have been offered a place to start 9th September. Problem is I am now having doubts.
The more I read on here and other forums/websites it seems to paint a very negative image of the airline industry.
The training that I will undergo is integrated full time and will cost 83,700 euros. It seems that once that is completed and I have my frozen ATPL I will then need a type rating. If I want to go down that route. Am I right in thinking that the airlines rarely pay for this nowadays? As far as I can tell people are paying for this themselves and this is encouraging the airlines to duck out of the costs. Which i can understand from their point of view.
But anyway my initial excitement 2 weeks ago is all but gone. I could end up with debts of over 100,000 euros and be none the better for it.
I truly do want to fly for a living and to be honest I would be happy doing any flying job from pottering about in a small prop plane, flying rich business people in private jets or all the way up to a full blown airline job. Hell I would even crop dust if I got paid for it. I was truly shocked at the level of wages you start at, but that I can live with as I know it will pay off in the end.
But what I really want to know is:
Is there a 'bright' future persuing a career in the airline industry? Is it worth the huge finicial risk? What is the current/projected job market like? Am I too old?
I know these have been asked millions of times before, but I just keep getting conflicted views. I am on the verge of making one of the biggest decisions of my life and I don't want to regret it - either way.
Any advice from those in the industry/studying/recent graduates etc would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks in advance for you replies. You may be as harsh as you like, I can take it!

[Ben-Stoke]

Daydreaming, you could try doing your PPL first like I will be doing and then after finding a ground school where you'll be able to do you CPL, this way it is a lot cheaper and is called Modular, however if you have a lot money you could do an integrated course where you will do your PPL and CPL at the same place. However, for me this works out about £30,000 to £40,000 more.

[Daydreaming]

Hi Ben, thanks for the advice, I think this is probably the only way I can be sure. I mean if I come out the other end and I have a ppl a little bit of debt and a clearer mind to make a decision, I will be far better off. This is pretty much the best idea I could come up with also.

At the moment I am planning to do a year long integrated course, they reduce the cost of the ppl for those who do integrated. I wouldn't be able to afford modular as the Aus govt pays for integrated at some schools with a repayable loan over your career called "vet fee" vocational education training.

I think I'll just have to bite the bullet, take some time off work and do a ppl!

[benish]

First things first read this http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/521353-current-employment-market.html

Secondly go to Uni and get a degree first, before parting with 50-100k of money you won't see again unless your in the lucky 5% (probably less) who get hired.

[Wizbod7]

Hey guys!

Need some opinions. My goal is to become a commercial pilot, I'm 23 years old and left school with not 1 gcse, not because of lack of ability but just had no career goals or ambition and was very immature!

A few years after leaving school I realised that becoming a commercial pilot is the path I wanted to take. I looked into it and found that my education needed improving so I've done that and now I'm in a position to take my A levels, which I understand are important for sponsored schemes.

The dilemma I have is whether I should start my A levels this September or wait a year and get some money behind me as I'm literally broke at this moment in time, and I find it hard, I can't bear it anymore, I feel the lack of money will affect my ability to achieve the highest grades, I'm from a poor family so I cannot get support from them.

If I do decide not to start this year I will be 26 by the time I'm finished my A levels, would this be too old? I just don't know what to do as becoming a pilot is something I feel I must pursue! I understand how tough it is, and I must admit I do have second thoughts sometimes because if how unpredictable the aviation industry is but I can't see myself doing anything els until I've tried to achieve my goal!

Taking a year out will allow me to take my class 1 medical, start my ppl and save some money!

Please guys! I'm really in need of some guidance and would appreciate any input! What would you do?

[Bealzebub]

Firstly, well done on recognising the need to repair your education and actually doing something about it.

Is it possible to combine employment with your A-level courses so that you can address both your educational ambitions and your practical need for income? If you can, that might be well worth considering. I sympathise with your predicament, but given your motivation this option might allow you the flexibility to set your own timescales for A-level attainment and possibly a PPL as well, all within a reasonable timescale.

You can also apply for whatever sponsorships (such as GAPAN) and other assistance that may be available. The odds may be stacked against you, but you certainly have nothing to lose, and you stand as much chance as anybody else who shows motivation, commitment, and desire.

You are right, it is a tough industry to break into and I don't think it is likely to get any less tough. I think your broad game plan is a sensible way to proceed at this stage given your resources. If you can combine and accelerate those plans as much as possible (which obviously won't be easy and will need a lot of extra time commitment,) you would probably be doing yourself a favour.

look at night school, correspondence courses, assistance from your local education authority with regards to the A-levels, and at the same time look for employment that allows you to finance (and hopefully save a bit) your life, over a 12-18 month timescale to complete an accelerated course if you can do this.

Also try getting down to your local airport and seeing if there are any opportunities there to find some additional work, even if it is weekend odd jobs. That sort of thing can help you feel motivated, involved, and can in itself open up the opportunity for the odd ride, lesson, or opportunity. It also sometimes provide the resource to "network" with people who can provide valuable information, that may well help you later.

[Wizbod7]

Hi, and thanks for your response, much appreciated!


I do believe it would be possible to combine the 2, I'm just concerned working may jeopardise my grades, that's the last thing I was as I'm aiming to achieve the highest possible grade which will support my applications. Do you agree or do you think I could still obtain the highest grades if I were to combine the 2?


I do know about GAPAN as I have looked around their site before, it's really helpful! I will be applying for anything available as soon as I have made my final decision, which I haven't got long to make unfortunately.


Are you a pilot? If so what would you advise me to do if you were in my shoes? Is it something worth pursuing? Good balance of work/social life? Sorry for all the questions I just want to be satisfied with my final decision as I don't want to waste more time of my life, I need to make something of myself, I'm fully determined to succeed, I just need support and guidance!

Thanks again!

[Shamrock 84T]

Hello everyone, I'm from Ireland and currently I'm working my way toward becoming a professional pilot via the modular method at AFTA Cork. For several reasons I have decided on this approach the first one being money, although my father works in the public service as you may know our country has been suffering imormously for over 5 years now and his pay is a 1/3 of what it used to be whilst expenditure has increased during those years, but hey it's where we are and it ain't gonna stop me, I hope.

I'm 19. And I love my passion for this so much it takes my life over at times, I work Mondays to Fridays to support my family and pay for my training and to have an actual social life also which comes third after flying which is my second priority, family is and will always be first. To make sure this was the right career to be going down I passed my Class 1 medical with flying colours last week, as I work weekdays I will complete my PPL at the weekends until I receive my licence, I will then seek a loan to carryout my ATPL course. This whole process I estimate will take me just over 2 years, my questions are;

1) When I have completed my ATPL what happens next?

2) How likely am I to get a job following the completion of this process?

I'd also like some of your opinions with regards my method of doing this, I really appreciate you reading this and would like to hear your views which would be massively appreciated.

[Bealzebub]

As unhelpful as it might sound, the answer to both of your questions would be to spend a lot of time reading these forums and look at other peoples experiences.

There are a lot of people who acquire CPL/IR's every year and very few "jobs" for those that do. Then there is the question of what do you mean by "jobs?" Airline vacancies for pilots tend to be either at the experienced level or at the cadet level. The former tends to be in the 2000 hour plus range with significant previous experience (catch 22?) or in the case of the latter, usually via specific cadet training programmes. Both of these routes are very heavily subscribed.

In the middle, you have many thousands of would be hopefuls looking for the limited spectrum of (often) stepping stone jobs that are themselves both rare and keenly fought over.

Nobody can really answer your two questions for you other than to say you presumably look for a job and should plan for a long period of drought, with a realistic set of "what if" scenarios. Again, spend a lot of time researching, and look in some depth through these forums where your questions have been answered by those who have been in this position time and time again.

Good luck.

[Yeager]

Mate,

If you want to fly aeroplanes - do it. You already have a healthy priority at a young age - putting family just before flying. If your "family" does not include "your own" family (wags, kids etc.) keep going. Get your commercial license probably also the Instrument Rating and buzz off to Africa or Indonesia and get some fun flying experience and more importantly FLYING experience in order to proceed.

Good luck mate.

[flyme19]

I set out on my training when I was 19 and just beginning my IR now 3 years later. It took this long due to saving to fund where I am up to now.

My advice to you would be that you have 2-3 years of training to come. Jobs out there are slim at the moment and as I'm sure many people would echo on here, it's not what you do, it's who you know. For me personally I worked as cabin crew and this gives great contacts and insights into an airline.

So all I'd say is enjoy it and do whatever you can to get in and around the industry as you don't know what it might lead to in the future!

[sudden twang]

Is there a website anywhere that shows the proportion of modular fATPL holders who get jobs v integrated grads?

[sudden twang]

I'm still researching stats, I'm interested in the numbers going through training, modular/integrated split plus numbers that don't gain employment. I appreciate I may have to do the number crunching myself but if it's already been done......
It's entirely possible that I can return the favour in one form or another:ok:

Edited to say I've done it now what a task it was too.

[JpQuealy]

Hi, im an 18 year old student in Ireland and have aspirations to become a pilot. To make a long story short, I really dont know where to begin as regards training and qualifying as resources here are very limited to say the least. Just wondering if anyone in this forum has any tips for me or has been in the same situation. Im studying for my leaving cert this year, but what really grabs me is the asperation to become a pilot, i just need the knowhow! :)

[asap_maz]

Hi Guys ,

Atm i am 15 and I'm studying for my GCSE'S i am really confused as to how i am supposed to get there , i know it is too early on to be doing this but its really because my parents are going to start saving for the fees of the flight school on the basis that i start studying hard to make sure i get the grades to get in , i'd prefer to go a course where you are put straight into the airline on completion for example CTC'S qatar airways or british airway's fpp because generally when you finish flight school you leave with not enough hours to fulfil the requirements needed to become a pilot for and airline for e.g 1500 hours on a turboprop etc and i have no clue as to how i would get my hours up to that much !! and the hours needed on a specific type basically sorry for the long explanation but being a pilot is the only thing i ever want to do when I'm older , i don't see myself liking or enjoying any other jobs apart from being a pilot its all i want so can someone please explain the best possible way to being a pilot ?

as i said i know its early but I'm going to be starting the procedure hopefully in about 1 and 1/2 years and i want to make sure i prepare in the best possible way to ensure i get into the route of becoming an airline pilot:ugh:

[Bealzebub]

Good idea to apply yourself towards obtaining good grades at GSCE and A-level. The BA FPP scheme sets a particularly high benchmark in this regard, and obviously a good solid set of education certificates is only going to be a good thing generally.

Your presumption about airlines only taking on pilots with 1500 hours isn't accurate, however the routes into "cadet programmes" are very competitive and often very expensive. There is a lot of advice, comment and discussion on these boards. I would recommend taking the time to read through those that seem relevant to you (particularly some of the longer threads.) You will find many of your questions have been answered time and time again. Once you have a better understanding generally, post on the many specific subject questions that you will no doubt have.

[asap_maz]

Thanks so much , ill spend lots of time looking through the forums until i have a good understanding :8

[Jee]

Hi guys, i'm new to this forum but require advice from commercial pilot's.

I'm 19 and have been granted a place at Pan Am Intl' Flight Academy in Florida after passing the initial aptitude tests. I have also got my class 1 medical and i've been approved my M1 visa to study.

I have good A-level qualifications from a grammar school here in the UK. I've wanted to be a pilot for some time now and unfortunately have just stumbled across this site. I've read many posts from current and retiring pilots suggesting that the Aviation career is not what it used to be. Obviously, i dream of finishing my ATPL pro-pilot course and becoming a first officer ASAP. I understand that this is very difficult in the current climate.

However, i've read that the demand for pilots is set to soar over the next 2 decades or so. I just want to ask the question: Do you still believe that it is faesible for me to think that i can secure a first officer position after i complete my course (hopefully). I am being sponsored by my parents and the estimated cost will be ~£60k. I wouldn't want to finish my studies and then wait years on end to secure a first officer position. After all, training isn't cheap.

I'm after some impartial advice, i've been told by the reps at Pan Am that the demand for young pilots will be there in a few years time, but i know that they are there to convince you to do your training with them. I've read on this forum that young pilots find it extremely difficult to find jobs due to the flying time that companies are seeking. I don't necessarily want to finish my training and find out that i need to spend x amount on time building etc.

Thanks in advance, i hope that you guys can provide me with a bit more info.

[sudden twang]

Jee
Check exactly which licence you will have upon course completion. Trawl the internet to see if any airlines are recruiting with the quals / experience you will have. Is there any particular reason that you haven't considered the BA FPP, even the most cynical on these forums agree it's one of the best deals around.

[Jee]

sudden twang, i appreciate the reply.

after completing the course, i will have a "frozen ATPL license" with MCC and JOC includes 40 hours in full motion Simulators.

I first looked into BA fpp at the start of 2013, but i was still at sixth form then, so didn't meet the full entry requirements. I didn't finish my a-level by mid 2013 and had already stumbled across pan-am. I attended seminars held by BA, CTC and many other american schools.

I understand that BA fpp has a much better chance of getting me into employment, but i've also heard that it is extremely difficult to get to that position (which seems logical)

It's just the employment bit that is slightly worrying for me tbh, i don't want to be in the situation where after my training, i have to keep building hours just to be able to apply for positions.

[sudden twang]

If you apply for the FPP you may get it.
If you don't apply you most certainly won't.
If you fulfil the entry criteria apply and do absolutely everything to get it.
You asked for advice , there it is.
Best of luck.

[krstill]

Buggington or anyone,
Can you give more detail on how you access upto £42k on the student loans system?

Many thanks

[papawhiskeyfoxtrot]

People of pprune, if possible I would appreciate some serious advice.
Like many of us I have always dreamed of being a pilot, I wouldn't quite call this an obsession but it is certainly a burning desire, and I do want to do it as a career.
Background information, I am in my early 30's and already have a relatively well paying career. I have made the choice to stay in the family home and save very hard for 10 years, this has meant a lot of sacrifice, and for me this was better than doing local modular with a poor training organisation. I am now in the fortunate position of being able to afford either modular or integrated training, I have passed my class 1 medical and gapan aptitude tests.
If I am going to spend my life savings then I want to give myself the maximum chances of successfully getting a cadet ship at the end followed by a long career at first officer and hopefully captain level.
I sometimes feel that a lot of pruners don't respect the cost of the training, or the nature of the industry, I do, and it scares me. I have a degree in mathematics and physics, and am currently doing my ppl for fun.

I've contacted many airlines but can't get any dialogue going.

Is there anybody in the know who can advise me, either on this thread or by pm on the best route for success. I will relocate and do whatever is necessary for a bright shining light at the end of the tunnel.

[mad_jock]

if you have the cash personally the CTC waypoint programs are probably your best bet to be honest if you can get on them.

If you don't get into the top level course your going to have to go away and re think.

Unless your on a cadetship or that top of the range course you pretty much stuffed at the moment and relying on luck and networking to get a job. The method of training outside these methods doesn't really give you any benefit on that first job front.

[Capt T]

Evening All,

For many years, like many who will read this, I have wanted to become a pilot. I have disregarded anything else, it has been my only ambition.

Well, I have got the stage where I have the money I would need to train, however, after looking well within this forum I can't say i'm very confident that I will reach my end goal which is to make a decent living through aviation. Not because I lack the ambition but because there's nowhere for low hour pilot to go anymore.

What should I do?

Where do freshly, trained, low-hour pilots look to to find a job?

Everywhere you look nowadays you either have to have 1500+TT & 500 hours on type to get a job with the airlines. Is it really necessary to factor in the cost of a type rating into the cost of training?

[OhNoCB]

Look outside the airlines and look everywhere. Search for the lesser remaining piston operators, even turbo prop operators, look in Africa and Asia, look for the jobs that the percentage of new licence holders think themselves too good to do*.

I'm not saying it is easy, it's far from it. I know people who have put the effort in and have struggled to get the return. Some are still struggling, but that is life, not everyone can achieve their goals, but if it's a true goal and you are prepared to put the effort in, you'd probably kick yourself not to have tried. If you have any doubt, don't put yourself through it in the first place cos it can be draining at times and depressing at others.

*I think there is a decent percentage of these people, probably more so from bigger integrated schools (not all of these people though!). I have met quite a few that think they shouldn't go through "The system" of gaining experience and are inclined to believe that they have paid for top training to go straight to the top.

[Capt T]

Many thanks for your reply OhNoCB...

I realise I may have to start at the bottom and work my way up. I would leave training without any debt and luckily i'm quite young so there's no immediate need for lots of money for a mortgage or children so I would like a job that would at least allow me a comfortable sum to live on and act as a stepping stone onto the next step.

Is this unrealistic?

[4Screwaircrew]

It's tough to get a toe in the door, when I started back in the late 80s the market was buoyant and whilst you couldn't exactly pick any job there was some choice; however within a few weeks of getting on line the market died and friends just behind me in the system took years to get an airline job.

I think at the moment the cost of training is so high that people are looking for a high paying jet job immediately, an apprenticeship on the turboprops doesn't seem to lead through to the jets as it did for me. Indeed some people describe being trapped on turboprops, the jet operators are reluctant to train them and they cannot fund a further rating.

Being debt free at the end of training would allow you to work in some of the lower paid jobs to develop your skills and increase your experience, but then some operators only seem to want brand new pilots with no experience or habits. So you find yourself in that catch 22 situation, do you shell out for a Type Rating or hunt down an entry level job on old machines in sunnier parts of the world.

Only you know what would be "comfortable" to live on and that figure will vary depending on where in the world you find yourself, whatever you decide or find it's a fine way to earn a living, good luck with your choices.

[Cloudious]

Hey guys, first post here on these forums.

I'm currently 16, in my last year of school and about 5 months away from finishing. I've never really liked the education system as it never motivated me or anything like that, never really prepares you for the outside world. I also don't feel like going to college as I'm almost mentally tired from school, and I'm planning to take a gap year maybe to get my EASA PPL combined with a part time job, that way I can focus on that, then maybe go for the CPL couple years after.
Question: I'm currently 16, and I mainly wanna get into a charter company as I love to fly VFR and I love lighter aircraft. Would it be possible for me to get a job
without having the best college results?

[Bealzebub]

Anything is possible, however you should consider the following.

Jobs in aviation are few and far between. Competition is extremely intense for the places that do become available. If you think otherwise, then spend a few happy hours reading these forums.

When competing for job placements and particularly attractive job vacancies, you are going to be up against people who will have attained a solid education foundation. Employers expect it. They see ample evidence of it every day. They will use it as a filter to whittle down the huge number of qualified applications to a manageable pile, from which they then make their selections for interview.

If you think education doesn't prepare you for the outside world, then you will quickly discover the harsh realities of what a lack of it is likely to mean.

The best advice I can offer you, is to stop kidding yourself, and knuckle down to achieving the best results you possibly can. That won't guarantee anything either, but having these basic weapons in your armoury will likely save you a lot of time and having to revisit these same fundamentals later in your early adult life.

[Jaspervp]

Just as Bealzebub mentions, going to college or do some additional studying is always good. You'll always have that extra point on top of non-high educated candidates. Being 16 and 'school tired' is surely possible, I guess everyone at that age has that feeling. However, if you truly want get a job in the aviation sector, motivate yourself to do additional studies by realizing it will help you get this aviation job faster (of course it's not a magic formula, but...). Make sure you don't hasten everything and ending up with no 'decent' college degree, an ATPL but no job.

Of course, this is all your decision. But if you think about it, when 2 persons are competing for a job, having the same flight experience but one has a higher education degree, the choice would be pretty much already be made.

I don't want to be disrespectful for people without any higher education, but as you're already planning on doing a modular course, I would suggest you do some studying and in the meanwhile get you PPL, IR etc. I know it's hard postponing your true passion, but it'll be worth the wile (I am in the same situation ;))

[RTN11]

You may not like the education system, but in life you can't always just do what you like. Sounds a bit like you need to grow up a bit and learn what the real world is like.

The type of job you're talking about is often only done by some of the most experienced pilots, as it's single pilot low level stuff so a lot more risky than two pilots up high with autopilot where they are little more than systems operators. It's rare these days to get into single pilot vfr operations without some serious contacts, so you really need to start networking.

If you know the right people, school qualifications aren't particularly relevant, but if you don't have the contacts then good school grades could be the difference between being phoned for an interview or your cv going straight in the bin.

No reason not to do your best and get good grades. I hated school, still worked hard and got As and Bs, a good mental attitude to hard work can't be beaten in the real world.

[Dillon318]

My dream is to be an airline pilot but I'm worried about the chances I'll even make it. Don't get me wrong, I will do anything to make it that far but will I ever get a chance? So I looked it up online and saw a yahoo answers for it so I don't know if you guys agree with the answers or not but the answers aren't to optimistic. What are your thoughts?
Here's the link: Air Force pilot chances? Commercial pilot? - Yahoo Answers (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AmOVP2wmYKMDduQDw1JXQzXwX3U6?qid=20140118203909AA XYoEe)

Thanks

[Dillon318]

Oh and I forgot. What is the average monthly or yearly salary for a regional pilot?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure that somebody else will be along in a minute to lock, delete or move this thread.

But in the meantime - as a general rule, the odds of somebody incapable of doing a bit of basic homework for themselves successfully training for and landing a highly skilled and competitive job, are vanishingly small. The questions you've asked can be answered in 5 minutes with google.

[AirLad380]

Hi everyone

I am a 20 year old Japanese/Israeli male citizen currently living in Japan.
It has been my dream to become an airline pilot since I was little, and I intend to become one. After taking a few introductory flights, I decided I want this as a carrer. However, I don't really know the most efficient way of becoming an airline pilot since I'm not an American citizen or European citizen.
I really need guidance.

I looked up in the Internet and found out that basically I either have to go to a flight school, which I previously planned to, or to a college/university that offers flight training along with a degree/associate.
I am planning to go to a community college and do the flight training and then transfer to a four-year degree program while working as a commercial pilot or an instructor(assuming I will earn the certificate for it).

I have about 50000 dollars that I earned in the past 2 years after graduating high school(in Israel) so I'm a little worried about the budget since there aren't that many scholarships for international students in the states. I know that universities or four year colleges will cost me more that community college. However I'm concerned with the quality of the flight training that community colleges offer.

Lately I have found that there is an airline sponsored flight training in Japan that All Nippon Airways offer which I didn't know of. But they require their applicants to have a degree(which I don't have) and be less than 25 ears old. This I don't have a chance because I will need four years to obtain a degree. Had I known about this earlier, I would have taken action.

I also thought about going to austalia, but since there are even less scholarships offered to international students then in the states, I simply won't be able to pay for the education.

Since I am already 20 years old, I'm beginning to worry about time running out and I really need guidance about this. Is going to a community college and start working as a pilot while earning a degree is the best option for me( assuming I will get a working visa)? Does anybody have any recommendations for community colleges? Or should I just go a flight school ? In that case not having a degree be a problem?
Or should I try another country?( military is not an option)

I really need guidance please!!
Looking forward for help

Thank you

[Genghis the Engineer]

Airlad,

I came across this company the other day - they may be exactly the sort of people you want to talk to.

ƒgƒŒƒ“ƒhƒxƒNƒ^�[ƒGƒrƒG�[ƒVƒ‡ƒ“ ƒCƒ“ƒ^�[ƒiƒVƒ‡ƒiƒ‹:::TOPƒy�[ƒW::: (http://www.trendvector.com/index.htm)

I can vouch for the fact that they really exist, own at-least 3 aeroplanes, and really are where their website says they are. After that, you're on your own I'm afraid.

Good luck.

[ThomasNL]

If you want to be a commercial pilot, just do it. Follow your passion, although remember as some previous members told here that it won't be easy to find a job. It might take years to find one.

[pak0pak]

Attempting to join SAAF (South African Air Force) "minimum requirements - I am less than a year by 6 month's(26), meet all other physical requirement's, except for one thing, maths and science in high school, however I took HG mathematics's but dropped after 3 year's (damn quadrilateral equations), have a bachelors degree (not aircraft related).

Geography has always been my passion in high school and it show's in my knowledge of thermals and wind prediction and precipitation (damn Bravo Charlie's), and my history (also taken in high school), so over my year's Iv'e concentrated on WW2 and a little bit of WW1 plane models and parameters and unique and innovating points in the design, my 1st class oral (presentation in grade 3 was on the ME 262, class fell asleep but I got an A+).

Sorry for the long post, but I am hell bent on becoming a fighter pilot, so if any advice on how I should present myself to the recruitment office in writing, eg. do they want someone who they can mold from scratch, or will they prefer someone who has some knowledge of aviation?

Warm regards

P.S ANY SAAF MEMBERS PLEASE ASSIST!

[orya32]

Hey my name is Orya and im 18 and im from israel and i want to start a career as a professional pilot.

but tall you the truth I dont know how, i was looking around and I thought going to do a degree in the feild and get the flight houres you need, and i really liked that idea but the price for the degree is right at 220k $ witch will take about 12 years to get by working here or abut 7 with loans so an less i can get a scholarship i dont think i will by able to do it... :sad:

also im sure there are progrems that just get you a licence you can work but probbly with minimum flight houres and that its really hard to get the remaining hours

in israel the only thing you can learn abut flight is PPL so i have to go somewhere else, but its really hard to chack the options from the internet (I tryed for like 5h :ugh: )

so if any one can help me even a little bit it will by great

[Captain Bradley]

Hi Guys,

In the near future I am going to make a very important decision and I was wondering if any of you could help me with it.

Shortly about me:
- 26 years old
- SPL (Glider Pilot License) + FI rating (about 300h TT)
- PPL(A) student pilot (should finish in upcoming months)

I have gained most of this flying experience during my B.Sc and M.Sc studies which were not related to aeronautics. I simply wanted to have a Plan B if anything would go wrong at any stage of my training... or later.

At that time I did not have enough money to even think about something more than flying gliders and a little single engine planes. Now, after graduation my finances got better and since flying is my biggest passion I am highly motivated to start training for serious. What is more I am getting older and I realize that soon it might be too late for me. But I know how terrible the current market looks. I have lots of friends with many hours and licences who are unemployed for a long time. That made me think - is it because they did their training as cheaply as it could be at unknown to anyone flying clubs.. with no reputation and connections? And if I will spend some more money but will attend to more famous foreign FTO (operating by an airline) I will be in different position? Or it does not really matter and in the end CPL/ME/IR + 250h = CPL/MR/IR + 250h.. and you are unemployed anyway?

Thank you!

[runak]

Hi, I am 32 yr old citizen of Russia. For a variety of reasons pilot career path in my country is closed for me. I was reading pprune for a while, and have a question. I can pay my training all way through, including p2f. But again, I am not an EU/USA citizen. Is that an obstacle for applying for a p2f scheme? Do these p2f schemes still exist at all? Can a non-eu citizen find a job anywhere in Asia with ca. 800TT and 500 on type? I am ready to submit myself to several years of flying for peanuts somewhere in Asia. The main question, is citizenship an obstacle for this. And if the whole plan makes sense. Thank you.

[Bradwatton]

hello,being a PPRuNe reader for many years,on and off,I decided to join.

since I was a child,before setting foot on one of these wondrous flying machines I would always be amazed at each sight of any aircraft in the sky,then setting foot on a Boeing for the first time to go on holiday,going to RAF cosford,meeting and speaking to pilots,and visiting bobbington airport a fair few times,its safe to say I caught the bug before I sat in a cockpit.

my questions are to you,which will most probably have similar experiences,but have taken the plunge into the world of aviation,what are the chances of gaining a office in the skys,but,is it outweighed by the chance of disappointment.

I have seen a lot of posts on here,of people that have given up,all I seem to see is people aiming for big airline jet vacancy's,I wouldn't mind any job,such as a ag pilot in the us,a water bomber in Australia etc,obviously id love a job with british airways,in a lovely cockpit,but I just love the aviation world.

I dont want to not try and achieve my dream,but I don't want to attempt it,15 years down the line,broke,no job,cant afford to stay current.

the market isn't exactly booming,pilots are not in big demand,but still,I feel I need to attempt this,should I aim for my ppl,see how the market goes while flying for pleasure,gain my cpl then attempt to get a job,or go all out,get my ppl,cpl,aim to get a job instructing,put all of my money into hour building,and get it out of my system.

the problem with option two,is right now i could pay for my ppl,but thats 4 years of saving,so for my cpl id literally have to sacrifice everything to get it done even within 5-6 years.

what did you do?did you wish you had done it differently,and any advice for a newbie?

also if anyone flys from bobbington,or owns an aircraft there and would offer some advice or to help in anyway,it would be appreciated.

[tumelo]

Gooday everyone

I am currently in grade 12 doing physical science and mathematical literacy.I decided to change pure/core mathematics due to my average marks.I'm concerned if I will still be able to persue my dreams as a pilot or there are steps I must take first to become one.Help anyone?

[DanniT]

Hi, It's time to start planning and I'm stuck for what to do. I've wanted to be a pilot for a long time and although the costs involved are discouraging, it hasn't deterred me. There's so many opportunities, but aviation is the only one that truly excites me. I'm nearly finished my exams and then I'll be onto my last year of school and I need to make decisions. I'm currently sitting my Higher exams (equivalent to A-Levels) and next year I'll be doing Advanced Highers (almost university level).

Like the majority I don't have the money to take the integrated route just now, so we can cross that off from the list. A solution to this would mean finding a job and saving up until I have enough to pay for integrated training, which could take a while, or I could use that money to pay for modular training and in addition would also be cheaper.

I've heard that many airlines are now beginning to accept mostly pilots with a degree, which puts me one step back as it adds time. If I went to University and did a degree it could land me a slightly higher paying job, helping to save up quicker. But if we add the time it would take to do a degree, and then the time it would take to save up the money, that could turn into quite a while.

I think I have found a solution though; an apprenticeship. If I were to do an apprenticeship in aircraft engineering, I would be paid during it and it would not take as long as university. In other words I'd get a job with a higher salary than if I didn't do uni or an apprenticeship, and comparing an apprenticeship to university it would take less time and I'd be paid during it. But, would airlines consider this as valuable as a degree as it is also to do with aviation, especially since a lot of people who for example apply to airlines or tagged integrated training schemes and have degrees that are irrelevant to aviation.

To summarise the options:

Grab any jobs I can and save for intergrated training.
Grab any jobs I can and do modular training.
Get a degree at Uni, get a job from it and save up for training.
Find an apprenticeship related to aviation and save for training.


Anything involved in saving up and achieving my goal will be good experience, but which is the quickest and most effective way forward? any guidance would be really appreciated, thanks. :)

[OhNoCB]

Plenty of info on here about integrated vs modular. A popular opinion (aligned with my own personal opinion) is that if you can get on a tagged integrated scheme then go for it, otherwise you pay a lot less to end up in the same situation by going modular.

I disagree with needing a degree for airline jobs. I can barely think of any in Europe, although it is more often a requirement outside of Europe.

Out of the options you gave, I would do an apprenticeship and then do modular training. Reasons being that an apprenticeship should give good skills, a decent job, decent wage (afterwards anyway) and good experience. Make sure it is something you enjoy as I wouldn't personally pick aircraft engineering unless I thought I would enjoy it. Doing it this way means you can save and start flying training. You may find you want to continue it, you may find you are happy with a PPL for spare time, or you may not want to pursue it at all. If you do pursue it then regardless of the outcome you have something to fall back on.

[KurtW]

Hello

After several years working in finance I have now decided to fulfill my childhood dream of becoming a pilot. I am looking at a number of schools that offer integrated ATPL. I would really appreciate if there are any pilots willing to talk about their work experience as well as the training. Please send me a private message and I can give a call.

Many thanks

[Piltdown Man]

Kurt, there are too many other dreamers which means the job no longer pays what it should. Spend your money and effort getting a job that pays enough so you can fly privately. Not until the supply matches the demand will it be worth doing.

As for the schools, virtually all of them can turn out someone with a frozen ATPL. Also, with very few exceptions, they can teach anyone. Flying is easy, it is getting a job that is the hard bit. Maybe only a third of those who embark on the route of getting a commercial license actually end up with a job. But ALL of them are saddled with huge debts. Unfortunately because of the huge number of dreamers, those actually flying find it difficult to live let alone pay down their debts.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Don't do it but if you do then consider the Modular route.....it will save you a fortune and when you can't get a sensible (by that I mean not pay to fly) flying job you would not have wasted so much money. Piltdown Man is totally correct I am afraid.........

[Genghis the Engineer]

It may take you a couple of hours, but read through the discussion on the "modular versus integrated" thread at the top of the page.

[gpiper]

read the modular versus integrated thread, and do what you want to do, do not listen to anyone about not getting a job.

You will get a job but not as quick as doing something else like accounting and etc...

And another thing, do the training IF(and only IF) you got the money, otherwise it's not worth it... Making a loan will set you back not only financially but also with the rest of your life.

Better to do something and regret it instead of wanting it so bad and never do anything about it.

Start by doing a class 1 medical before anything else.

[Tynado]

Hi,

Bit of a background, I've been into flying since a young age and been playing flight simulators pretty much my whole life. Which just fuels me to want to fly more, especially for a career.

I was scammed last year with the whole "Senior Aviation" thing. I'd been unemployed for around 5-6 month and saw the advert and thought it was too good to be true, turns out it was...

I haven't played any simulators since, it sort of ruined the spark for me as it just makes me want to fly as a career even more so it's quite saddening sitting on my pc doing it!

I've been unemployed another 5 month now due to a motorcycle accident which caused my to lose my job due to my injuries at the time so I'm currently in the market for a new career.

I don't want to go back to a factory job, it's dire and I drowse off into my own little world. I need something exciting. Like flying.

There is no way I could afford a private pilots licence, never mind a commercial licence (fixed wing or rotary) due to obvious reasons meaning I currently have little money.

Is there anything out there that would give me a shot? I've considered the RAF but due to doing nothing for the past few month my stamina is pretty much non-existent so I would never be able to pass the fitness. I'd never be able to get a bank loan and there's no easy to get to airports that I can volunteer at in return for the odd lesson.

Is it really just one of those jobs where you have to be well off already or just plain lucky to get into?

[The Seat of Your Pants]

If this is a career you truly want, and the RAF is a path you are considering, the fact that you are not fit now should not be seen as a barrier to entry; rather, it is a challenge for you to overcome.

You can still apply to the air force up to your mid 20s so if you are young that is plenty of time to get fighting fit. To overcome an injury would be a great demonstration of determination to discuss at interview! Join a local sports team to combine fitness with improving your team skills.

The RAF is a lifestyle as well as a career so make sure its for you, and if you are eligible for selection give it a shot! Or as many shots as it takes!

In the mean time; you don't need to be a pilot to work surrounded by aviation. Perhaps there is a local airport you could work at? Anything to get closer to your interest and passion. You will enjoy work more and are hence more likely to perform well enough to one day fund a licence.

Wish you the best of luck!

[KurtW]

Thanks for all the responses. In the 90s I was considering becoming a pilot but in the end decided not to go through with it due to the reasons everyone seem to be stating, i.e., high costs and difficulty getting a job. Instead I decided to go into finance where I could make more money and I have regretted it ever since. It is clearly not that easy to get a job once you have the license but some people must get them. Can't say I am doing this for financial reasons. Would be a lot better off continuing with what I am doing but not particularly happy. Worst case scenario is that I have spent a fair bit of money and have to go back to what I was doing before. At least I made a go at it.

I know this has been covered more or less in other threads but it is still a bit hard to get my head around it. I am considering FTE, OAA, and CTC as they are all used by BA for training their pilots. Prices and training seems pretty similar albeit in different locations. Is it the case that the airline industry consider the quality of training in these schools comparable?

[bex88]

a few guys I know got themselves into pilot jobs through internal recruitment. One via cabin crew and used the money to get their cpl via modular route and the other as a dispatcher. Both roles put them in front of flight crew and gave them inside info on recruitment. As they were respected by the flight crews for what they were doing and how they were doing it the senior pilots put in some good words and levered the door open which gave them a chance to prove they were ready. I would say this works in either a smaller airline or a medium sized one at a smaller base as you get to know people. I can't see it working in big airlines that run very set recruitment policies.

I would explore the RAF, Navy and possibly the army (careful with that last one as you are a soldier first then a pilot)

Any parachuting near you? Maybe you can volunteer there. This may enable you to again work towards your CPL/PPL and get into the aircraft as a drop master or just to assist the pilot. Its all a start

good luck

[Tynado]

Thank you for the replies.

I have considered all 3 of the armed forces. Like mentioned it is my fitness that is currently stopping me however the past week I have gone on runs around a local field as my leg has got slightly better since the accident.

I would say the RAF would be the best route for me as the Navy doesn't appeal as most of the time would be spent on ships even if as a pilot. The Army, you are a soldier first, however it does seem one of the easiest routes, especially as my qualifications mean I could potentially join up as an officer rather than commit 3 years to being a door gunner before having the opportunity to apply for a pilot vacancy. The RAF also seems to be the best out there for how you are generally treated.

Good shout with the parachuting, I know there are a few skydiving places just out of town so I could give them a shot. There's also a gliding club which is very cheap for flights and to learn to get a gliding licence so that could also be a possibility once transport is sorted out as I imagine someone with a gliders licence would get the edge over someone with no experience at all.

[Chris0799]

Hi, I'm Chris. I'm a 20yo college student (just completed 2 years) I am wanting to pursue a career as an airline pilot! I've done a good bit of research on it but can't seem to find out the possibly of me actually being able to become a pilot for a commercial airline(Southwest, AA, Delta ect.) I hear that most of those jobs are taken by the military. Military is not an option for me at this point and time in my life due to personal reasons. I just need to know where to start with this! Any help would be great guys!

[Willestone]

Hi there,

I am a wannabe pilot, hoping to start commence my journey through flight school, however I lack any of the inside knowledge into the industry and just shared experience from other pilots. So after attending Flyer Exhibitions and getting advice from flight schools it seems one of the common things to come out of them is to get pilot contacts, someone who can share experiences, give tips and some guidance. Now this is all well and good but none of these people advised me on where to start with getting these contacts. So my main question here is where would be a good place to start?
I was speaking with some people who said i should approach pilots if ever i see some at an airport terminal but i feel this is the wrong way to go about it as they would not want to stand and chat whilst on there way to a flight. Plus it would look a bit odd!
I think it would help me just to have contact with a real pilot so I could get some advice and hear real life experiences.

Let me know what you all think!

Cheers

[sgmattsg]

Hey everyone,
This is my first thread on here. Just like most of the people on this forum, my ultimate dream is to finally become an airline pilot. Right now I am studying for my Bachelors degree with Honours in Tourism Studies from the University of Malta and should be finishing next year. However, this is more of a back up just in case my prospective career in piloting doesn't work out.

So, I just wanted to ask for some guidance in achieving all my licenses from people who have actually gone through all the trials and tribulations that accompany the journey to becoming a pilot.

Just like most people, I was contemplating the age old question of " Modular Vs Integrated" , and I think I have opted for the modular route. However the problem is, only having one national airline in Malta (Air Malta, which doesn't employ many pilots being a relatively small airline) , obtaining a job on my own might be more difficult than it is in other countries. Opposed to this, integrated offer aid in obtaining an interview with airlines however are exponentially more expensive (CTC being around 86k STERLING compared to Diamond Aviation school here in Malta offering all licenses for around 70k EUROS in total done modularly). What are your opinions on this?

Also, regarding funding, i would definitely have to take a loan for most (if not all) of the costs. Repayments on this would be over 1k a month I'd imagine. Considering the average starting salary with a degree over here is around 1.3k a month, that seems impossible. Scholarships nowadays are scarce and have been contacting countless airlines and private companies asking about potential sponsorships to no avail. I am telling you all this so as to maybe obtain a bit of insight regarding what all the pilots on this forum did to cope with the payments. Any advice would be IMMENSELY appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[pilotchute]

Sgm,

What do you want us to tell you? To go for it and follow your dream?

You have to be realistic. You said yourself you cant make the payments if you don't get a job pretty much straight away. You also haven't factored in paying for your own type rating or living expenses whilst away if you go to a school outside of Malta.

There is no easy way into it. Unless you can afford to lose 100k Euro in a failed attempt to become a pilot you shouldn't even try.

There are HUNDREDS of modular and integrated CPL graduates scattered all over Europe trying to get one of the very few jobs on offer to low timers.

Now isn't the time to take the leap.

[sgmattsg]

Don't worry... wasn't expecting any particular answer from you collectively. As i said, i just wanted to hear other people's experiences. I am being very realistic trust me, as I have been doing everything in my power to see what I can do (if anything) to potentially make this dream a reality.

So please don't misunderstand me, in no way am i trying to make myself believe that this seemingly impossible venture is a simple journey, in fact, quite the contrary. However, I am a very strong believer in "where there's a will there's a way". So I thought other people's constructive insight might be of beneficial aid to me. Thanks for your reply.

[magicmick]

Air Malta is not your only option, there is also AirX in Malta who have recently been offering 2 year apprenticeships to low hours people who already have CPL and MEIR with a company funded type rating on one of their biz jets on completion of the apprenticeship. I don’t personally know much about AirX or the apprenticeship scheme but you would have to hope that when you complete training they will be offering the apprenticeship and will favour a local like yourself. It might be worth you paying them a visit and trying to land (no pun intended) some non flying job with them and train for your licence when not rostered for work, if you get on well they might look favourably on you when you have your licence.

Failing that you may have to leave Malta to another country or another continent in search of your first flying job.

The advice from pilotchute is absolutely correct, embarking on training is a massive gamble with your money at stake and you should never gamble what you cannot afford to lose. Please do not tie yourself down to a massive loan with your (or someone else’s) property as security without a secure Plan B to bring in money if you don’t get a flying job quickly, to do such a thing with current recruitment prospects would be truly insane.

Good luck to you whatever you decide to do.

[cefey]

Find a sponsorship deal with one of the companies providing it.
Otherwise, just let it go. At least for now.
You don´t have money to pay for it and there are no pilot jobs.

Otherwise, I would suggest to go through US, where you can do instructing and get 1000hrs.

[sgmattsg]

Thanks for your replies!

I understand that it is a very costly venture, and unfortunately I don't have "mummy and daddy"'s money to gamble away. However, in light of this, might just continue to do my masters in business over here as it isn't too costly. That way I'd have somewhat of a good chance to get a good job should I not be able to find a piloting job immediately. What do you think?

Magicmick, I have tried to contact AirX via email, but I received no reply. I might just have to schedule a visit and talk to them face to face. Working with them and training gradually would be a great situation to be in, should it be available.

Cefey, that's what I'm trying to do but as you probably know, sponsorship deals aren't plentiful nowadays and can't really find any that apply to me. I have to disagree with your "let it go" advice though. Postpone it, maybe.... let it go? Never.

[sgmattsg]

You're right :) Yes I have taken the padding into consideration because just like you said... anything can happen. However, fortunately, here in Malta we're blessed with good whether for the major part of the year. But yes I am aware of all the "extra" charges that might come to the surface during training :ugh:

[FullTanks]

I recently posted the following on another thread, but think it relevant here.
Please read and seriously consider; this is not the time to spend the equivalent of £100k, without a reasonable prospect of future employment. There is also now the reality that the previous options of instructing and a job on a propeller aircraft could soon, if not already, be a career cul-de-sac. There are too many airlines requiring a valid Type Rating on the jet type which they operate. Be VERY careful about embarking upon a self-selected training course. CTC have an outstanding record of placement, but in order to gain a place on the their 'Wings' programme, and be 'tagged', you will have to pass their strict assessment procedure.
Good luck in your endeavors, but consider all previous advice on this thread.

Reality Check Required
Whilst I appreciate that many self sponsored pilots who achieved fATPL/IR qualification have, in the past, managed to secure flying positions with major UK airlines, both of the legacy and low cost type, the recruiting position is now far more problematical.
The very limited places available on each year's BA FPP program ensure that they can recruit both the most suitable, those most likely to complete the demanding course and, importantly, those whom they consider will have little difficulty during their ensuing careers in passing recurrent checks and conversion courses.
The majority of those who have been selected by BA are not enthusiastic teenagers (as I once was), but those with established and well remunerated careers. They still have the enthusiasm but were prepared to forego commercial flying until BA launched their scheme in 2011. The integrated / tagged courses with the three major training providers gave similar employment prospects to their successful candidates.
As I have tried to impress upon those thinking of embarking on a SELF SPONSORED integrated or modular course - you are by definition SELF SELECTED. Sadly the schools may consider you trainable - that does not make you employable. The unemployable (by major airlines) are distorting the market and having to face the reality of no flying job and a massive loan repayment. If you are considered to be the 'Right Stuff' by a major airline, you will be tagged for a course or offered a place on a version of BA's FPP. If you embark on professional licence training in the current climate without such assurances you will have only yourself to blame if you fail to find employment upon qualifying / graduating.
If you are prepared to accept the reality, you can still have a wonderfully successful career in an entirely different and rewarding field and still enjoy the benefits of a PPL, possibly owning your own or a share in an aircraft. There can be few, if any, other occupations in which so many have qualified who thereafter find themselves among the long term unemployed.
Good luck, but please be realistic. This is a time to let your head rule your heart.

[magicmick]

john smith makes some very sobering and very valid points, as they speak from a position of experience and knowledge within the industry then prospective pilots would do well to heed their advice.

While the airline tagged courses are the best option at the moment there are absolutely no guarantees linked to them. The cadets will bear the financial risk as very few if any airlines now pay for the cadet training (pre 911 they used to) and they will be under constant pressure during the course to maintain minimum standards set by the airline (eg 1st time passes in all written exams with a high average and 1st time passes in all skills tests on minimum hours) failure to maintain the required standard will mean removal from the scheme.

Assuming the cadet finishes the course to the required standard and graduates, there will be no guarantee of a job with the airline, if the airline happens to be laying pilots off at the time the cadet graduates from training they might be offered work in another department or just abandoned.

If another recession or another 911 happens (god forbid) the airline will reserve the right to cease the tagged scheme leaving cadets high and dry. When 911 happened there were cadets for several airlines (including BA) going through their courses and many were dropped almost immediately.

Finally even integrated FTOs with tagged cadets on course can got bust, not so long ago we had PTC and Cabair go down with all students (tagged or non-tagged) losing all money paid to the school. At the time there were Flybe cadets at Cabair who had the following choice:

Move to another FTO (approved by Flybe) and self-fund the remainder of their training (which they’d already paid Cabair for) and then join Flybe.

Forfeit their place on the course and walk away from professional flying.

Not a pleasant situation especially if you have paid up front for an integrated course and you’re only a few months in when the FTO goes under and you have to find the money to fund another complete course of training.

I have read elsewhere on PPRuNe some speculation from usually well informed contributors (not trolls) that at least one of the big three integrated schools is in serious financial trouble. I don’t know which one or how true the speculation is but it was written by more than one contributor who normally contributes reliable information from inside the industry.

Any tagged scheme cadet contract will be cleverly written by lawyers who listened at school and will place all risk squarely on the cadet with 100 ways to be removed from the course and only 1 way to get through to the RHS of an aircraft.

Despite this the cadet schemes are viewed as such wonderful opportunities which is more a sad reflection on the current recruitment market and opportunities for ab-initio trainees.

[echofly]

check mp

the best is to get plan B

[ThePilot007]

Dear Friends,
I am 18 years old and am going to pursue this career. I would like to get some advice and your experiences as what problems did you''ll face and what steps are to be taken after the training and aquiring the frozen license.

I thank you all very much in advance.

[Byrne11]

Hello, I've been recently accepted in Oxford Aviation however my first preference is CTC to get on the Qatar Airways programme, I've done a lot research on the airline and life in the middle haven previously visited dubai I've had a taste of the middle east.
I was hoping someone could give me some advice on the entrance exam into CTC?
i'm 18, i've recently left school, no interest in going to uni wanted to be a pilot from a very young age, I've cousin flying for Fly Emirates who done the same as myself so all the advice i get is needed and appreciated thanks

[spacemen]

Hello all,

Well this will be my frist post, and i hope the first of many's.
I will be the first one (maybe) that comes here and say, my dream is not becoming an airline pilot, but an astronaut, i know its crazy :p.
So since NASA prefers someone with flying experience, i think i will need to start my trainig in this area.
Right now im at university studing physics in astronomy & astrophysics and almost finishing my course.
SO what i want with this post is someone who can tell me what is the best path to follow.
I already know that exists PPL CPL and ATPL, and the courses are expensive as hell =/

I was thinking to start in PPL at a groundschool, in my country, then start building hours and at the same time studying for ATPL (modular way).

Any suggestions?

PS: I Live in Portugal

[Matthew024]

Hi,

I am in the process of deciding where to complete my PPL training, yet before I make any decisions on where to invest my money I first wanted to find out what routes may be available to achieve a CPL or job with an airline through a Cadetship scheme or otherwise. I know it may seem pessimistic to look at it in this way but I have to face the harsh reality that its an expensive and lucrative path to becoming an airline pilot.

I have a massive interest in Aviation itself and have completed a degree in Aviation Technology in DIT. I have also just completed my Class 1 medical and feel that before age becomes a major factor I need to start pushing on with my training as I am now 22 and may have another few years training to do before I reach the top of the ladder.

I have checked a number of Cadetship Programmes, looked at the possibility of entering the Air Corps and also achieving a PPL and then looking to join a company such as West Atlantic. I just want to know that if these options fail me can I do anything else to reach the eventual goal???

Many thanks to all in advance!!

[r9z]

hello everyone
it is all about pursuing your dream , your passion . life is too short thus i decided to start following my heart FINALLY after all of those years and i hope im not too late . I will be 29 next September . Im a Neurosurgical Resident i've already finished 3 years of my residency program and i still have 3 years to go . i have many questions hope that you guys can help me to take the right decision . First will the airlines companies consider me being a doctor as an advantage when i apply for a Job .secondly the most famous question am i too old to start my training . hope to hear from you guys soon

[elmore81]

You've already put so much in to your chosen career, why start again with all the uncertainty that comes with aviation. Ryanair are the largest employer of new pilots and the chances of being called for interview over 30 are slim.

So the best idea would be to get on a scheme like the ffp or the easyjet mpl. I'd imagine that academically you would be much stronger than most - if not all - your fellow applicants, but there are no guarantees of anything.

Why not carry on with what you're doing and get in to flying for fun, start with a ppl and then see where it takes you, I work at my local flying club and most of the members who fly the more interesting types (sbach's, pitts, harvards, WW1 replica aircraft, tiger moth, spitfire, mustangs etc) all made their money outside of flying.

If you're asking then I'm sure you've already made up your mind, so good luck!

[Luke SkyToddler]

I'm trying to think of a good joke to crack here but I can't, I'm just speechless

My old flying school is owned by a brain surgeon these days, he's younger than me, went for a trial lesson and liked it so much he bought the school, just because he could, and he was looking for a small, fun, investment opportunity to supplement his main investments in commercial real estate :eek:

If you touch the airline business with a 40 foot pole then you are seriously in need of some of your own medicine!!

[skidbuggy]

You're never too old to achieve your dreams. In the US, there is USAirways A330 pilot from New Hampshire who is a practicing ER doctor. I've also heard that AC has one also here in Canada.

Get your licenses and ratings and see where it takes you. In time maybe you'll be able to fly professionally and practice medicine. If it turns out that flying isn't for you; then you'll have something to fall back on.

Best of luck to you.

[pilotchute]

Elmore,

He is in Amman. I doubt he has a EU passport. I also doubt if a surgical resident will throw it all away to be an airline pilot. That is unless he hasn't paid for any of the medical training himself. Being Jordanian that is a likely possibility.

[FANS]

Unfortunately, flying and rational thoughts are very different.

John Smith makes some excellent points, but there are hundreds willing to fill his seat! Some will feel the same way he does after a few years, others will just be grateful.

If I was being too broad brush, I'd say those interested in high academic learning will struggle to fly A320s for much more than 10 years.

[reallywanttobeapilot]

Hello guys !
Im 15 and going into year 11,
My dream is to be a commercial pilot when I leave school however I understand it is very expensive, I wouldn't like this to hold me back from reaching my dream. After doing some research i am under the impression that I first need a PPL, CPL and a ATPL.
PPL = aprox 13,000 GBP
CPL = aprox 12,300 GBP
ATPL = unknown
Is this accurate?

I am looking for the most cost and time-effective way to finish my CPL or whatever I need to stat flying passengers around.
What levels do I need (at GCSE ) ?
Do I need A-Levels or a degree if so which one's ?
How long will this take ?
How much will it cost all together ?
What Pilot school do i go to?
I don't mind travelling around the world... ( living in the UK at the moment )
How much do pilots get paid?
I am looking for professional & Smart advise

Thank-you so much for your time

[Byrne11]

I've just finished my A-Levels I'm Irish myself I'm going on to be a commercial airline pilot, well thats the end game.
I done 11 GCSE'S I've 6A*s and 5As main ones are Maths Physics and geography will help i always hard although i never done it. I done Physics and maths at A level A and B in them and history also.
If you're looking to train in the UK theres Oxford and CTC, i was accepted into both of them however you don't need A-Levels to get into them they do their own entrance exam on maths physics and hand co-ordination tests plus interviews they're around 90k plus you've an airline training on top of that at 30k+ .

I personally have chose to go to America, theres loads in the states Aerosim, Pheonix East. They're around 60-70k however your license will be different, you'd need to change it if you wish to fly in the UK. If you're pretty smart and have the financial backing go to Embry Riddle, thats were I'm going to train and earn a degree and hopefully get a green card.

And salaries vary in the US 20k till near 200k at captain in the emirates. I've family who've been pilots for many years, its a tough job its not like the virgin add where you've 9 air hostesses dandering behind you don't be under that illusion its demanding and its expensive. I was brought up as a child flying C172/152 i could never imagine myself doing anything else but its not for everyone

hope that helps

[too_much]

That Virgin ad is not that far from the truth when you make it to the big airlines...

It's not difficult once you have experience, that hard part as you stated is getting that first job, sadly over 70% don't ever get to fly after school 20% get started at the bottom instructing!glider towing part time stuff on nice weathered weekends when the regular guy is sick! and I would say 10% actually fly in airlines.

Think very carefully before embarking on a career in aviation, especially if it's airlines you want to work for...

I'm a classic case & there are thousands in my position 4,500 hours 10 years experience I was Captain of a B737, I've done all the crappy jobs, kissed arses been to hell and back yet still with all this experience and finding myself unemployed due to the bankruptcy of my airline..still I find it hard to even get invited for interview! Can you imagine....

Very cruel, unfair & heart breaking industry it will crush your dreams, some may even develop mental health issues

I urge you think very carefully....

[Peregrinefalcons]

"Despite that, if I could go back in time, there is no way that I would get involved in this rotten business."


If you don't mind my asking, why?

[LukePilot152]

Hello,

Sorry about the title, it sounds very cliched and that wasn't really the angle I was trying to go for. Be prepared for a read, as I'm not known to be brief.

First things first. My name is Luke and I'm 17 years old. I've been wanting to be a career pilot for nine or so years and I'm one exam away from my EASA PPL (I'm UK based). Now, I don't think this is out of the ordinary, and I'm sure you've seen introductions similar to that more times than you can count. But that's what makes me different I suppose, I can understand the fact I have very little chance of achieving my dream. Doesn't mean I won't try though.

I'm studying at AS level and expect/hope to get at least BCC, ideally BBB. This would place me in good standing for the BA Future Pilot Scheme and all the various other schemes on offer for airlines in the UK. I will hold a PPL in about three to four weeks so I will also be able to apply for the fully funded Atlantic Airways scheme.

What I want to know though, is what else can I do?

I know that the chances of my getting lucky with a scheme to get me from wheels to wings in 18 months are, at most, slimmer than a size zero supermodel. So what other things would I be able to try and aim for? Bush flying? Cargo runs? What I need is inspiration, a glimmer of hope to keep the dream alive. Which is the best division of career flying to aim for if I don't want to be the one who tried and, regrettably, failed?

Stories, advice, inspiration - anything to stop me from listening to the people who keep on telling me to find a new inspiration.

[LukePilot152]

Also - if I have, as I think I may have, put this in the wrong place, don't hurt me. Shout at me and tell me I'm stupid, but don't hurt me.

[TowerDog]

I did both bush and cargo flying, not for the faint of hearth and not always easy to get into.
(The Alaskan Bush operators require Alaska time for insurance purposes, chicken or egg, which came first?)

Cargo flying can be a good career path and I enjoyed it much more that hauling pax around. Would go back if I could..:sad:

Best advice is: Don't get married, don't get kids: starting out you will be poor for a while and will have to travel around to where the jobs are, sometimes living out of suit case, and or drive fork lifts or taxi cabs in between to support the flying.
Things may have changed and your mileage may vary.
Good luck.
(As my Instructor said today In the simulator when launching down the runway for a certain V-1 cut:)

[LukePilot152]

Thanks for the reply - I am currently running a small business importing from China which has funded the best part of my license, and if needs be I can afford a rather nice tent, although I have a car so I could always sleep in that!

The idea of flying cargo has always seemed ideal - considering I'm writing this reply at 04:40 local time, it's fair to say I've always been more of a night person. Not that cargo flying is all night time mail runs, of course. As a hangar rat I was able to get experience in a ton of aircraft types, from Chipmunks to Senecas, Tiger Moths to Eurostars - maybe the experience will come in handy.

Thanks again for the advice :)

[mad_jock]

luke just be flexible and see where life takes you.

You have the right attitude and your young. So just keep enjoying life.

I would suggest though you go and get a class 1 medical down in Gatwick.

Its just in case its a no go for flying commercially, no point working towards your goal if its not going to be viable.

[G-F0RC3]

Well done Luke - you are doing well for a 17-year-old. You have good flying experience; a good sense of humour (not to be underestimated); and it would appear you are prepared to work hard to achieve your goals. I agree with mad_jock in that you should probably get a Class 1 before you invest any serious effort or money in furthering your career.

I can relate to your desire for inspiration. You’ll probably read at least ten times more pessimistic views on this forum than optimistic ones. That’s not without good reason; it is unquestionably an expensive and difficult industry to get into. You already know this. But someone will get the next set of cadet positions on the various tagged schemes, and there’s no reason why that couldn’t be you.

Twelve months ago I was readying myself for the selection process of the BAFPP. I rated my chances at no more than 1 in 100, and it’s easy to feel disheartened when the only career you’ve ever wanted hangs on such odds. But try to think positively and work very hard with your preparation and it might surprise you how far you get. Against the odds – and much to my surprise – I made it all the way through the process and start my training in only a few weeks. I hope that can give you some inspiration for your own career.

Good luck for the future! :ok:

[average-punter]

You seemed to have your head screwed on for a 17 year old. I think it’s also good how you haven’t fallen for marketing and glossy brochures from prospective flight training organisations

Firstly I also agree with both mad_jock and G-FORC3 about getting the class one before you do anything else.

Keep working hard at those a-levels. You’ll need BBC or better to be considered by BA through the FPP. Future Pilot Programme - Future Pilot - Share your passion (http://www.britishairways.com/careers/futurepilot/aboutYou.shtml) Best of luck with the PPL also.

In terms of what else you can do, I would suggest trying to broaden your CV as much as you can. Get involved in as many extra curricular activities as you can. Volunteer to take roles that involve leading teams and working as part of a team. Interviews are often competency based and will ask for examples of things you have done in the past that demonstrate the qualities that this particular airline/job wishes you possess. Whilst doing my a-levels I found it helpful to start a word document. I started out by listing all the qualities that potential employers look for in their pilots, and then I thought of times when I had demonstrated these qualities. I aimed to get involved in more activities to have a better range of topics available to discuss at interviews.

It worked for me and I made it onto an airline programme.

Best of luck

[LukePilot152]

Thanks for all the replies - as mad_jock knows due to a thread crossover, I currently help with scout gliding, do work for a balloon chase team in return for flights and do Amateur Photography. It's obvious that, while experience and knowledge is important, individuality is also important, and a quality not to be under-estimated in it's value.

I'll keep on looking for openings, as some schemes offer the chance of immediate application for someone my age, with a few British and American schemes not requiring any A-Level grades for application. Meanwhile, time for me to go and get a medical!

[JSFerrier]

Hi people,
I have recently received my gcse results, (7as: maths, additional maths, all 3 sciences english language and pe, 3bs: history, geography an English literature, 2cs German and ethics and a merit in IT), and am off to college next week.

My interview for enrolment is Monday, and currently I am taking maths, further maths, physics and geography, however I am debating if not to change geography for electronics as it fits in better with physics. So my first question is what should I take??

Secondly I have been scouting around the flight schools and have noticed that the majority of English based airlines sponsorship schemes are currently closed and open yearly, but and this is a big one, i have come to understand that the aviation industry does not tend to be that regular and therefore my second question is how does employment look over the next 3 to 4 years?

Third is basically should I go to university as I know that no airline requires it however it does stand out in comparison to others but I will be four years older at the end of it.

Thank you for taking your time to read this I will
Become an airline pilot it is just a matte of when and how but all advice is appreciated.

[Tom!]

Before anyone makes any career choices watch this video:
Cal Newport: Follow Your Passion Is Bad Advice - 99U (http://99u.com/videos/22339/cal-newport-follow-your-passion-is-bad-advice)

It's about 20 minutes long but worth it before throwing a lot of money at flight training

[G-F0RC3]

So my first question is what should I take??

Are you studying A-Levels (or equivalent) at college? If you are then I don't think it makes a huge difference whether or not you study Geography instead of Electronics. Both are good subjects in my opinion.

...my second question is how does employment look over the next 3 to 4 years?

Pretty good relative to previous years by most accounts, but still highly competitive.

Third is basically should I go to university as I know that no airline requires it however it does stand out in comparison to others but I will be four years older at the end of it.

I'm really not sure going to university does make you stand out a whole lot in this industry. I have mixed opinions on this question to be honest. On one hand I think it's good to have a plan B in case your chosen career never comes to fruition. On the other hand going to university will cost you a lot of money in terms of debt and lost earnings, which isn't hugely compatible with then embarking on a course of flight training. So it really depends on your personal circumstances. Either way, good luck! ;)

[JSFerrier]

Thanks GFORCE made it clearer that il attempt to get on a graduate scheme post college as I have had planned for a number of years, I know their hard to come by and such but I feel as if I can do it. Thanks for your help :)

[Philip G]

Hi, From my profile you ca see I'm very new, however this is what I want to do in terms of later on it life, I'll give you a background.

I'm currently 17 years old, 18 in January 2015. I'm studying A-Levels at my Sixth Form and studying Geography, Psychology and BTEC ICT, I have the needed 5 C's or above at GCSE.

My dream is to become a commercial airline pilot, so I had a look at CTC's airline programmes. Ones that caught my eye were Monarch and British Airways. However, at such a young age, my fear of the cost of the training being so high, what would you do. I know both Monarch and BA use the bank loan from BBVA, do you think that's a good way to go?

Out of the two programmes, at this moment in time I think that Monarch's programme would be best in terms of entry requirements.

My family also do not simply understand how much I want this dream to become a reality, but with how much the training costs, they won't even think about it.

Any help or advise is welcome.

Thanks :ok:

[rehpej]

hi, first of all i would like to be an airline pilot but i'm too confused if i'm going to start my training. since i'm not sure if i can hit the job right after the training. i'm already turning 25 this year still in the middle of yes or no.

[LukePilot152]

First off - keep working on your A Levels - many schemes require two or more A Level grades at C or above, with the British Airways one requiring BBC or above at A Level. The British Airways scheme could be regarded as the most foolproof, as once you have completed training you have the sum paid back to you in full over seven years, however this makes it very popular and even getting to the interviews stage can be a challenge. I'm about to start applying for the Atlantic Airways scheme, which requires no funding up front but does require you to have a PPL before applying, and costs will be paid back once a position is secured. As I have been told many times, and it is good advice, find something that makes you stand out from the crowd and do it. I'm sure that interviewers get bored of hearing the same old stuff, and having a unique or interesting hobby or interest can help grab their attention.

The fact is, this is not an easy career to get into - but don't let that stop you from having a damn good go at it. I'll be 18 a month after you, but I have the benefit of a funding source. Sometimes however, money is the least of the issue, you first have to find a scheme that you get far enough in to actually need to pay for. The other ways in which fledgling careers are started are numerous. Whether it's bush flying (something many younger wannabes seem to be getting more and more interested in) or crop spraying, it seems that aspiring airline pilots are finding even more ways to make their dreams a reality.

My advice to you? Same as many peoples advice to me. Have fun, and for this great bit of your life that exists between 18 and 21, don't let the prospect of a future career dominate. By all means, apply to every scheme you can find and fly in smaller aircraft at every opportunity just for the experience, but make sure you remember to have fun. I hate the saying with a passion, but you do only live once, and it's very difficult to do the kind of things you do at this age once you've retired (do with that as you will...)

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask :)

[average-punter]

Philip - continue to work hard at those a-levels and get the best grades you can. For many the BBVA loan is the only way to go, hence why the terms of the loan are shocking, if you have the money then great!

Immerse yourself in as many activities as possible, get a part time job, visit your local airfield, attend FTO open days (take what is said at these with a huge pinch of salt), visit the flyer exhibition at Heathrow, and ask to visit the flight deck on flights that you are on. These activities will help to demonstrate your motivation to become a pilot, of which recruiters will want to see evidence. This should also help demonstrate to your family how much you want this job. If you want to do it and get the loan you will need to have them onboard. However I would ask yourself if you feel comfortable with using your parent’s home as security for a loan?

Most importantly before you spend any money, get yourself down to Gatwick for the initial class 1 medical – without this you will never be able to fly commercially.

I think it’s worth bringing yourself up to speed with what’s currently happening in the aviation industry. In the current state of affairs Monarch will most likely not be recruiting cadets for a while. BA on the other hand probably will. Look at airlines and see how they recruit their pilots, what do they look for when hiring new pilots? The low hour market is flooded with people that all have the license, what makes you stand out?

[Helihopefull]

I completed my PPL(H) in 2008 but haven’t flown for 4 years due to work and financial commitments.
For these 4 years I have thought about nothing apart from flying again and have really missed it. I am disillusioned with my job so now I have decided to carry out my dream and continue with flying helicopters again.
My issue is the old favorite of money and spending money with no guarantee of a job at the end.
I read on all the flying schools websites that there is or will be a shortage of chopper pilots within the next year or so. This maybe propaganda to take my money and give me false hope but naively and optimistically I hope this is true and they are not the scammers of the century!
I’ve looked online to see what jobs there are and this may have been my first mistake. On looking there doesn’t seem to be many jobs and the ones I have seen seem to have everybody and their dog going for it.
Are there jobs out there or am I for a major disappointment?
I’m still going to push on with my dreams but the question now is where to go to learn?
I am English but do I train in the UK where I would have to sell every organ in my body or go somewhere warm like the good old US of A??
I know I would have to put travel and accommodation into my funding but it still seems to come out cheaper by the hour compared to good old blighty.
If I get my FAA exams all the way from hour building, IFR, CPL, CFI and then CFII, it’s going to cost me a fortune to change back to the new EASA.
Sooooooo, if it costs me a lot to change my licenses over, would it be a waste of time going the US way and just bite the proverbial bullet and do my licenses in England?
Also where is the best place to learn and hopefully be taken on at the end?
If you wish you can PM me.
Thanks guys.

[paco]

First of all, take with a pinch of salt any promises of employment after training. Next, don't forget you need immigration if you train and intend to work in another country, and that you have to think many years ahead in this business.

Having said all that - there are indeed shortages of helicopter pilots, but in the mid range. That is to say, there are lots of low time guys (and gals) and lots of high timers, but not much in the middle. As the average age of the industry is quite high (57 in the GOM a few years ago), I can see that over the next few years most of the industry will have to retire, which should nicely take you to the end of your training.

Your licence is not the only hurdle - that is actually the easy part - you need some sort of specialisation (IR or longlining, mountain course) or hours in the book, so your budget needs to be quite high for the extras.

If you want to go that route I would also recommend another language (Spanish, etc), which is a cheap upgrade for a low hours pilot.

[Philip G]

Thanks for all the suggestions and help. I am trying to apply for a part time job to earn some money, however I do need more help to persuade my family that this is what I want to do, it's what I want. They keep explaining that it's a lot of money, which I understand. any more help?

Thanks

[leemp5]

Hi guys,

My first post here, hope its in the correct section.

For a long time I have wanted to be a pilot, scared of heights but love being in the air (yeah as crazy as it sounds). Until recently i have never had the cash to do the training. Now I am able to afford to pay for the training outright i am considering doing it however there are a number of things putting me off. If possible i would like to hear the views of people with more experience on the following points:

Salary:
Are pilots salaried or paid per flight hour? I have read conflicting things on the internet.
Also is it true pilots can start on as little as 20k a year? Again i have read different things. Many websites state being a pilot is one of the best paying jobs earning 70k + per year however others say you can start on around 20k.
I currently earn 32k (+OT taking it to around 40k) repairing the EEC for trent 700 & 800 engines. I dont really want to spend 60k on training to walk into a 20k a year job.

Job Prospects:
Is it really that hard to get a job with a decent airline? Due to the high cost of training id have thought pilots are hard to come by, however many sites on the internet are saying there are loads of pilots and few jobs.

Commuting:
I understand being a pilot is not exactly a 9-5 job. I have no problem working unsociable hours, however I have also read that pilots have to commute 100's of miles or get a flight to another airport before starting their shift, that some sleep in airport lounges and even the planes themselves. What is the reality of this?

I have read articles at the following link however it seems to be very US orientated. How does this compare to flying for UK airlines?:
The Truth About the Profession - Home (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/index.html)

All advice greatly appreciated.

[fwjc]

IF you manage to get a job, the starting salary for most newbie pilots I know (myself included) is £20-25000 If you have paid for your type rating, it might be towards the top end. If you are bonded for your type rating, it's towards the bottom end. I took a pay cut of nearly £10000 to do the job I'm in now.

I expect to be in this kind of pay bracket for several years until I have gained enough experience to be able to move to a larger operator where the progression to higher pay scales is possible.

That's the realistic picture, particularly since you seem to be heading for the modular route rather than the integrated route. There are those who do get straight into an airliner job, and over the course of a few years their financial position does eventually get somewhere decent.

Commuting - it's a 2.5 to 3 hour commute from my home to where I work. I work some pretty strange hours, but nowhere near as bad as some. That said, the worst of the "flying to fly" commuting seems to happen in the USA and not so much in Europe. Bear in mind you have to go where the jobs are. Would you move to Inverness, or Newquay, or Norwich, or London, to follow a 6 month contract? If you have a house established and a mortgage, this makes it a lot more complicated since paying mortgage on your own house and then rent on a hardly used room near to your current place of work makes life very financially stretched. If you're a 20 year old living at mum and dad's hotel, your options are clearly much greater for renting something near to where you're working.

[dannybuckley8]

Hello all,

I am now 20 years old and in the final year of my Bsc hons degree in sport with a predicated grade of 2:1/1st. My whole life (especially more recently) i have dreamed of one day perusing a career in aviation as a pilot. I have a fully functional Boeing and Cessna flight simulator at my university which i use on a weekly basis (all hours logged) so even though its not substantial, i am currently gaining some aviation training. I just wondered whether there was any advice on what next steps i should take to start being more serious about aviation and start training to become a pilot? I have researched aviation training for some time now and am aware of the substantial financial investment i must make!

If anyone could offer any advice then please post as it will be much appreciated!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Basically - fly something.


I'm guessing as a final year undergrad, you're up to your eyeballs in debt, and also fairly busy. However, not all flying needs to be expensive.

Most universities have a university gliding club - go and join them. Get some time with air under the tyres: at this early stage it really doesn't matter what, and actually gliding does tend to create good "stick and rudder" pilots which should help counteract the bad habits you've probably been developing from unsupervised mucking about on computer flight emulators.

Once you do have time and money, then the next stage is to do a PPL. It really doesn't matter what that is in - microlights, gliders, motorgliders, helicopters will all serve the basic function. That said, if you do it on light aeroplanes, then the hours are most portable to civil professional licences. The main issue here is that you need to learn:-

(1) Whether you have an aptitude for real flying (and don't think that simulator time has told you that, it hasn't).

(2) Whether you have enough real passion for flying to keep going through the exams and training.

(3) How the real world flying environment works - from contact with the various professional pilots who will be teaching you.


Once you have a private flying qualification of some description, then you're in a position to decide if you want to go pro or not.


And don't forget at your relatively young age, everything is open to you - not just the standard default of airline pilot that is all most people see. Military careers in particular - either as (say) a PT Officer with access to service flying clubs, or as a military pilot.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Like i said before, step one is a class 1 medical. Until you have that, any effort or money spent might be entirely wasted.

[dannybuckley8]

Thank you for your advice it is much appreciated, I have gained few 'real world' flight time but will keep looking at gaining more after I graduate as like you said I am up to my eyeballs in work!

[Scyther]

Hello!

I am fairly new to these forums. I've been snooping around them for the last couple of days...

To cut a long story short I am a bloke in his early 20s born and bred in the US who has had a burning desire to become an airline pilot ever since he was a little kid etc etc etc. Unfortunately I sort of gave up on the idea in high school when I realized that there was no way I could ever back my dream with the adequate amount of mulah or achieve it via the military route. So I had to think of something else to do in the mean time...

Fast forward a few years and I am now a professional firefighter in one of the biggest cities in the UK. A bit random I know but I feel very blessed and also very content to be where I am now, doing what i'm doing BUT... I still always find myself looking up at the clouds etc etc etc [insert cheesy dream stuff here].

Now I am beginning to feel like I am in a position where I can actually start thinking about pursuing my ultimate dream of being in the right seat of an airliner. I am not saying i've got the money to do it this very moment but at least I am making decent money which I can save towards my dream. Plus I hopefully also have time on my side. Maybe?

From what I can tell these are my options...

A) Save around £30k, go and do all my training in the US. However I know this will not get me anywhere near the amount of hours or experience I will need to apply for any airline job. So if I went this route would there be any part-time flying jobs I could do in the UK to make me competitive for an airline flying job?

OR

B) Go the integrated flight school route like CTC, get lucky and get hired for easyJet flexicrew or something similar. However it is a terrifying thought that I might be nearly £100k in debt and be making less £££ than I am now.

Now money is not everything to me. I do not want to be a pilot for the big $$$ but obviously we all need to be making enough to look after our families and not be in a load of debt.

Oh and before I forget there are also things like BAs future pilot program but I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket, get rejected by these excellent programs and not be any closer to becoming an airline pilot because I didn't do any training myself. But then again you can't be a fully certified pilot and apply to these programs...

Heck, what about becoming a bush or mission pilot? But you need a load of hours for those jobs too.

So that brings me back to the title of this thread, where do I start?

Let me specify I do love my job and would be quite happy doing it till the day I die but that doesn't mean I don't want to give my ultimate life long dream the big old try otherwise I will always wonder, what if?

I fully appreciate anyone's input in advance! :)

And let me just specify that I attempted to get my PPL a few years back so I know I love to fly. Never achieved because I ran out of money.

[G-F0RC3]

I think you should apply for sponsored schemes and see where they take you. You have a good job from which I'm sure you'll have demonstrated lots of qualities that airlines are looking for. You're also still young enough that if they don't work out over the next few years then you can try the alternatives.

Hope it's helpful.

[Scyther]

Cheers for that G-FORC3!

Are there any sponsored schemes you can recommend? The best one i've seen is BAFPP which will be up again in 2015.

The reason I ask this is because I see an application for easyJet open on CTC and am not sure if it's even worth applying for.

I know I need to have a look myself as i've only just got back on board with this stuff but I also appreciate tips from those more experienced... ;)

[G-F0RC3]

Any mentored scheme with a reputable airline is a golden opportunity. The BAFPP is the best in my humble (and entirely unbiased :p) opinion. But a scheme that gets you to the RHS of an Easyjet A320 is an excellent one too. :ok:

[Scyther]

Ha, and my fire station is the best and busiest in the world! :}

Yeah, after having spent quite a bit of time reading the stuff on these forums i've decided to throw myself off a bridge... :eek:

Kidding... no... instead over the coming years I will attempt to save a giant mound of money as well as apply for all the best sponsored schemes I can. And if I don't ever get into any of those then I will hopefully have saved enough to go the modular route. And then at least I will still have my job and be able to look for flying jobs without the debt.

Advice heeded!

[Scyther]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering... if you had the choice of pursuing an airline career in either the USA or the UK where would you go and why?

From what I can tell, the modular route in the USA seems to be a much more acceptable route to the flight deck for those of us who will never have a spare 100k lying around. The only catch is that you will most likely need a bachelors degree to be competitive for a major airline.

UK seems to offer a more direct route to the cockpit (integrated ATPL OAA/CTC) but only if you have the cash and you don't even get a PPL out of them? You are also stuck with your airline? Factor in a high degree of luck and being in the right place at the right time. The cadet programs are definitely worth as many shots as you can give them though as they are not available in the US.

I personally feel that America would be the best way to go if you factor out the cadet programs. You get all your licences (including PPL) and all options are open to you unlike in integrated ATPL/MCC programs. It is cheaper and you can work your way up the ladder.

And if you already loved your job would you give it up to pursue a career in the flight deck of a major? Or would flying Cessners for fun on the weekends satisfy? Is flying a big jet ACTUALLY much more exciting and enjoyable than flying a small prop plane and going on flying adventures around the world. I understand that there are A LOT of variables in this one but general thoughts would be appreciated... If you don't want to fly for money than why are you flying for money? Do you get more of a buzz from flying a big jet? Are the views much better?

I just can't shake off the feeling I get when I think about being in control of a large multi-million dollar jet aircraft, full of passengers that are relying on my skills and professionalism to get them from point A to point B safely and efficiently. But as I said, I can only imagine, I don't know what it actually feels like... I just can't get rid of that, "WOW, I wanna do that" feeling (shiny jet syndrome). Do you airline pilots still get that feeling?

Lastly, are you ever too old to become an airline pilot (bearing in mind you have to give your license back when your 60)? Will you still get a fair shot as anyone else starting out in your mid to late 30s?

I would highly appreciate your response!

[dgor92]

Hi all,

I am currently a medical student in year 4 out of 6 years of study. Basically I always wanted to be an airline pilot, right from my first ever time flying, took a few flying lessons around the age of 16 before I realised that me and my family simply couldn't afford pilot training, modular or integrated.

Anyway, I went into medicine at University because of the above reasons, I also enjoyed work experience in the field and basically around when I started (2011) the chances of getting an airline job were slim and I wanted to go to university anyway. But the thought of becoming a pilot always niggled.

I fully expect to get told where to go when I say I am coming from a guaranteed job in medicine but I'll tell you this: whilst I enjoy the subject matter, medical careers have had a fall from grace much like flying jobs recently: my starting base salary will be around £22k (less than a FlyBe Q400 FO I believe), with around £60k in student debt and endless competition for jobs that will have me moving around every 6 months and maybe not ever getting a job in my chosen field and location. Basically while your job is secure in medicine in your early years (when you're getting married and raising a family) stability is basically zero and it's entirely possible you can end up in a job you hate in a place you don't like. On top of that the government is making a right mess of the NHS in general, morale is low and the future is uncertain. If I walked away from the job right after graduating it would be difficult to get back into it.

A little bit of me died inside when I realised I had missed opportunities like EI's recent cadetship and BA's FPP. EI covered 75% costs I believe; BA offered to act as a guarantor for the £100k loan and then pay it back (or am I missing something?). Basically what I am saying is that whilst I have no intention of doing ab inito training without a job at the end of it, if a scheme similar to these opened up again I would have a hard time turning it down.

My questions therefore are as follows:

1. what are the chances of similar schemes coming along again and is it worth applying? It seems to me that both are good deals at stable, "career" airlines. Also if I was to start with someone like BA, what would be the chances of commuting from EDI or GLA as a junior FO? For people like EI and Flybe, am I right in saying that Scotland/NI bases are easier to get into? (I'm basing that on very very old info)

2. is the industry as bad as PPRuNE makes it sound? Granted paying to fly at Ryanair sounds horrendous and I see a lot are moving out east (many doctors do too by the way), but when the cockpit door closes are you happy or is there a lot of moaning at 35000ft?

3. what are the timescales of schemes like the above? If I was to apply would it be worth sticking out my uni studies in case it all went awry? And is there anything I'm missing that makes them less rosy?

Thanks for reading this long post. I'd really appreciate some honest answers because to be honest I'm sick of turning it over in my head for the last 6 months! Does anyone have any advice for me on where to start? Getting a Class 1 medical before I do anything stupid for instance?

[Akhiiza]

Hi,

I am 19 years old and have just completed my A-Levels in the previous year. After much deliberation, thought and industrial advice I decided that going to university was not for me. I'd rather utilise the 3-4 years saving up for my ATPL as a degree was not compulsory.

My father already works for a leading UK airliner 'in the air' so travelling with him has given me the opportunity to meet various pilots on the job so to speak. Having spoke to many pilots they have advised that a Integrated route is preferred to the Modular, As airlines favour the 'Full-Time training'.

I have decided to set up my own business as well as accompany my father on many flights to keep the dream alive. I am currently in the process of applying for my Class 1 medical which I would recommend to everyone. This will give you peace of mind:that you can meet the MEDICAL requirements to avoid disappointment in the future.

Good Luck.

[OhNoCB]

There is already a long thread about the debate between modular and integrated so I won't start it again here, but I would urge everyone to make the decision themselves after doing their own research, and not based on what one or some pilots/others tell you.

I was originally told by an instructor that integrated was the only way if I wanted a job. I couldn't afford this so I did it modular knowing that I may have to use some savings doing less well paid work whilst waiting for a job. The result of this is that I have never been out of a job for more than 2 months and where I work now (flying jets in Europe for a mid sized operator) I have had discussions with other FOs who said they felt sick learning that they had paidin excess of 3-4x more than I did.

[Matthew_belfast]

Hi,

I am currently 26 years of age and will be 27 come April. From a very young age i knew i wanted to fly no matter when i turned 17 years of age i started my PPL training at my local flying school, however i did not finish the whole course.

I am currently a Banking relationship manager employed full-time, however i want to reach my go back and commence training for a PPL and possible progress after my PPL so i can make a career out of it.

My question is because of my age and the age i will be when i complete training in a few years time will this be a disadvantage to me because i know a lot of pilots today are very young both male and female.

I have booked my first one hour flying lesson which will take place tomorrow and i I'm extremely excited at the thoughts of even being near the aircraft.

I welcome any advice anyone has to offer.

Thanks

[AerRyan]

Hello everyone!

Since I was 12, I have had a deepened interest in aviation. I participate in aviation fourms and enjoy discussing and learning about the subject. I'm now 15, and really considering a career as an Airline Pilot.

The thing is, I've no clue where to start. I've never actually been in the cockpit of a plane and know little of controls etc. I know some of the technical side eg: Lift, Wind, Go-Arounds (which I'll admit isn't much) but I don't know what to do to even half follow my interests.

My end game would be to become a pilot for a commercial airline, preferably for an Irish airline. I would also like to get my training done in Europe.

So where should I start? Should I get lessons on light aircraft for my birthday (June)? What are the requirements for becoming a pilot?

I'm really clueless on the issue.

[Whiskey Hotel]

@aer Ryan

Jobs are very hard to come by once you finish your training. My advice to you would be to go to college and get a degree so that you have something to fall back on. In the mean time, maybe start by getting your PPL, it's the first step and will give you a real sense of what flying is all about. Depending on what part of Ireland you're in there are a few flying schools and clubs around that you can take lessons in.

[TrojanCat]

Hello, caution, long post ahead!

I would like to ask your advice about starting training in order to be a commercial pilot.

- Some background about me:
I'm a 31 year old, Finnish guy working on my PhD in natural sciences.

It has always been my dream to be a pilot ever since I saw the movie 'Top Gun' when I was 5. When I was 18 I started my training as a cadet in the air force, but had to drop out due to personal reasons (death in the family), and finished my military service in the special forces (sgt. first class). I have no flight hours.

As it happened I abandoned the flying dream and started studying, graduated, started work life, and now doing research and working on my doctoral degree.

Last week my professor and supervisor had his second heart attack, and is still in intensive care, not sure if he will get out of it and in what shape he is going to be if he does. This, as well as the job market for people with my education made me reconsider my career choices.
All I have is degrees, no savings, and no real job (I make the same money as the cleaners who clean the floors in university), no pension (researchers don't get salaries, they are paid grants). I can either continue doing research, or be a teacher.
It means I will have to take a study loan for the entire cost of the training+living expenses.

My uncle and my cousin are both commercial pilots, one captain in SAS, the other first officer in Lufthansa, they both are really happy and make really good living.
I would (and do) consult with them, however they both came from the air force with hundreds of hours and just converted their license, they never had to do the training from scratch.

- Where should I start my training?
I've narrowed it down to three schools, each with its own advantages/disadvantages:

#1: Aeropole Finland:
http://www.aeropole.fi/prices/
Cost: 107,000 euros
Time: 16 months
Advantages:
Location: it's in Finland, so housing, paper work etc. are much less of a problem.
Quality of service and teaching: should be high, if they stick to the Finnish standards, also us Finns have a good reputation to keep in regards to honesty and reliability.
Disadvantages:
Price: 107 thousands + loan interest means it will take me about 8-10 to repay the loan, plus pay for extra hours and upkeep of license, if it takes time to find work, which I expect it will, if I only have 229 hours.
Hours: at the end of the training one has a frozen ATPL and 229 hours.

#2 EFT Florida
http://www.flyeft.com/professional-courses/
Cost: 120,00 or ~100,000 USD
Time: 12 or 24 months
Advantages:
All included approach: no extra hidden fees, accommodation on premises included as well as everything else.
Both FAA/EASA licenses: opens more employment opportunities.
internship: possibility to earn experience, pay, and hours as flight instructor. If their website is to be believed, they claim students are able to pay back 30%-40% of their training costs with internship and earn 1500 hours.
Disadvantages:
tighter selection criteria: I don't know if I'm too old for them, or how hard is it really to get in, they also have all kinds of strange English tests, but I don't know if I should take them, since I've completed 2 full academic degrees in English, published in English, etc.
American bureaucracy: need to figure out all the issues with Visas and permits etc. probably not a big deal, still a small headache.
Quality of service and teaching hard to verify: They have plenty of testimonials, and positive reviews even on this forum, however, even I can put up a fancy website and flood this forum with positive reviews in a couple of weeks, better be safe than sorry, what do you guys think?
Price(???): seemingly the most expensive, but might be the cheapest overall, it's hard to say because the other schools don't advertise many hidden costs and don't include living costs.

#3 Flying Academy Czech Republic:
http://www.flyingacademy.com/index.php?page=zero-to-500
Cost: 45,000 euros (ex. VAT)
Time: 16 (+12 months)
advantages:
Price(???): seemingly the cheapest option, but so many extra costs exist
Instructor internship: Like in EFT you can work as an instructor which is great.
Disadvantages:
All exclusive approach: no idea what the total cost is. No idea how much the cost of living is in Czech Rep, will have to sort out housing etc.
Quality of service and teaching hard to verify: same as EFT.


I'm still relatively young, healthy, disciplined, somewhat bright, single.
Would love to hear your opinions, experiences, and advice.
Should I even be considering this?
Maybe I should just go and start studying else from scratch?


Thanks a lot!

[danielseah]

Dear all,

My name is Daniel here, I am 18 this year, a Singapore citizen. I've just completed my GCE 'O' Levels.

Since young, at about age 7, it has always been my childhood dream to be a commercial pilot. Recently, I spoke to an airline pilot and he introduced pprune.org to me.

I need help on what to do next. Some has recommended Massey University in New Zealand to me. Any ideas?

[AA350XWB]

Hello folks,

I am a second year university student (B.E Computers) and wanted to know how do I pursue my dream of becoming a pilot.

I did some research around but still have some confusion regarding licenses, Institutes and other stuff.

So here are my questions,

1)So far what I've read here and other websites the path to becoming a pilot is SPL>PPL>CPL>ATPL(After 1500Hrs of flying).?
2)Type Rating means that you're authorized to fly that type of aircraft.?
3)Instrument rating is to be done only once?
4)Every six months you go through a fitness test or some sort of test so that the airlines can be sure that you're fit to fly?

Now coming to the training part..



Since I have a degree in Computer Engineering, would getting a degree in some aviation stream made any difference? Basically the point of getting my degree is (1)Fail-safe option (2)My parent's don't have enough money for full flight training. So my plan was to work for 2 or odd years after my degree, save up some money and cost will be divided 50-50.
Now about the institute, a few weeks ago I had emailed CTC aviation and they quoted 85,000pounds ~ 85 lacs Indian Rupees which is tooooo damn high!(like Audi A6 high!). Goggling results in some famous top institutes to a shady flying school in some deep corner of the country which is very confusing/:confused:. Mostly I do not want my training in India and want to go abroad. Some countries which offer good training will be sufficient. I'm taking German Language next semester so can it be helpful somehow?
Also can someone explain the licenses stuff? Is it correct that If I've got an FAA license I can only fly in the US? EASA means only Europe? Then what about Asia? I also read about license conversion, what is that?
I know that after training I'm definitely not gonna get a job right-away so what are some tips to get that "first" job?

I had a few more questions(less important) that I'll ask later.


But if someone could guide me or show a way it would be very helpful. I don't come from a family of pilots so I have no practical knowledge, just what I read on the Internet.

P.S I want to become a pilot because It's my passion /dream. It's not about the money. I'm ready to face the initial struggle.

[ShotOne]

A 350, you'll need to do a bit of homework if you're actually serious and not just a contrail watcher. It's a fair amount of work, at least as much so as a degree but more expensive...and guess who's paying? £100,000+in UK. And the six monthly proficiency checks go on for all your working life. There are a load of scam artists offering shortcuts -pay this for a guaranteed job. Follow your dreams...but do your homework!

[raycg]

Hi Guys,

I am in my early 30's and now considering chasing my dream of becoming a pilot.
Unlike most I am not aiming to become an airline pilot. I would prefer to stick to lighter aircrafts.

I would appreciate anybody who has worked through the ranks to give me an indication on what salary expectations should be, I am UK based.

I would also appreciate if anybody can give some input for ideas to get funding.
I would be able to some save for a portion of the cost but would need funding of some sort.

[Luke SkyToddler]

lighter aircraft
UK based
salary expectations

You can choose any two out of the three :hmm:

[Genghis the Engineer]

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/563189-i-dont-want-airline-pilot.html

There are other threads, equally easily found, which will answer othr aspects of your questions.

[emileijane]

I'm a 15 year old female, who is about to choose my A-levels. I was wondering what routes into the industry was. I've considered going to uni and studying air transport, and I plan to apply for any airline based in the UK's future pilot scheme. I know that the acceptance rate is extremely low, so I need to have a back up plan. I've been fasinated by aviation for as long as I can remember and have wanted to be a pilot since I was around 10.

Any advice would be helpful, thank you. :)

[NovemberWhiskyLima]

Join the RSAF.

[wiggy]

emileijane

I plan to apply for any airline based in the UK's future pilot scheme.

:confused:

I may be wrong (often am) but I'm not sure there's any such generic "UK" scheme that feeds all the UK airlines - are you perhaps thinking of the British Airway's "Future Pilot Programme"?

Whatever you choose, good luck....

[emileijane]

Many UK based airlines offer 'courses' like British Airway's future pilot scheme, I just used that as a generic term for all the airlines which offer it. :)

[wiggy]

Ah OK, my misunderstanding, it's just that to me the UK's future pilot scheme looked like some form of official title.

..I'd still offer the caution that some advertised "schemes" are much more equal than others :hmm: , and wish you the best of luck....

[Armin]

Hi, everyone!
I'm a newcomer in this forum, and I came here for the same reason as all of you guys.
So, for the beginning I want to introduce myself. I'm 17 years old Lithuanian, and soon I will start 12th grade (so it's the last year for all my decisions, which will affect my further life). It's been about a two years since I started thinking/dreaming of a commercial pilot profession as my dream job. And I really got in it.
I want to ask you for your advise in several things, like:
1) Where, in your opinion, is best place to study (prices, perspectives, etc.);
2) What is the major personal characteristics needed in this job.

Thank you :O

[byrondaf]

Armin, searching this vast forum is a great place to start. many words of past/current/future students can be found by using the search function. There are thousands of posts to read and form your own opinions.

[SamGuichelaar]

Hi everyone,

Like many others here, I am looking to become a pilot. It's the only realistic thing I can see myself doing in 20 years and still enjoying it.


I have been looking on this and many other forums for the better part of two months now, and still don't know exactly what the best course of action would be for me.

I thought this didn't fit in any other thread, so I'm sorry if it does.

First, let me tell a bit about myself,

I am a Dutch 19 year old guy, who has been interested in Aviation ever since I was 4.

I have the Medical clearance I need, my knowledge of the English language is enough and my Math skills are sufficient too.

I joined a local air club when I was 12 and spend about 30 hours in single engine Cessna's. I do not have a high school physics degree, but if it's required I will get it within a few months.

I don't want to fly airbus, or any other plane with a sidestick. Eventually I would like to fly a 747, after a few years of flying smaller aircraft. I'll fly anything from a turboprop to a bombardier to a regular 737. (I'd even fly old soviet stuff if I got the opportunity) I don't really care if I fly cargo or passengers. I just want to fly a multiengine aircraft.


I am looking to join a pilot training outside of the Netherlands, because we are amongst the most expensive countries when it comes to pilot training, and I just want to get away from here.

Basically, I'm looking for a pilot training in the US, Australia, New Zealand, or Europe.

Someone suggested I should go to the US, get an FAA license and convert it to EASA, but basically every post on this forum discourages this approach.


Another person told me to get an ATP(A) at Ibertour in Spain, for about €38.000, but again, this forum wasn't too positive about this training.


So far what I would like most, is to get an EASA license in the Scandic countries, or get an license in New Zealand/Australia. Obviously, I want this to be as cheap as possible, but I also understand cheap often means low quality in the aviation industry.

I can get an KLM Academy pilot training (+loan) in the Netherlands for €120.000, and if this is the best course of action, I will do that, but I have to believe there are cheaper ways to get that holy piece of paper.



So summing up, I want to get an EASA or the New Zealand/Australian equivalent, to fly any multi engine aircraft, no matter if it's cargo or passengers. Preferably I would like the pilot training to be modular. (Integrated if airlines REALLY do prefer it)


I would join the RAF, but only 1 in 73 people get hired at the moment so I'm not betting on it.

Is there anyone who can give me any advice in any direction? I'm a bit lost...

[skyship007]

Don't dream about being a pilot, wake up and try and live in the real world (Not the virtual one)!

Get a real education and a real job where they pay you, not a newbie flying one where you pay them!

If you are a smoker or pill player who fancies themselves on Farcebook or in Utub clips posing in your new airline pilots uniform (They even dress up the trainee pilots in school), do us and the passengers a real favour, just buy the uniform and keep your parents money for more serious things, as the price of good quality drugs is increasing.
I know that cos my P2 turned up a few days ago and was still sober and not even stoned as usual. He even managed to stay awake long enough for us to take off!

[gaveasky]

My personal story is that I'm getting ready to do an EASA course with a school called 2Fly (4 months in the US and the rest in Spain).
From this course I will gain everything I need to fly in an airline +255 hours.

So, now I need a type rating and a lot of hours. I heard that some places accept you with such a little amount of hours in a sort of cadet programme, where you gain the type rating and hours to join the airline.

Has anyone got any resources/ideas for me? What should I do when I have completed the course? :confused:

Link to the course if anyone is interested. (http://www.2flypropilot.com/training/pro-pilot/)

[kimsmith]

Many universities offering degree courses and licenses in aviation for Commercial Airline Pilots in USA. My brother just completed his Associate of Applied Science Degree in Fixed Wing and now he got good opportunities from the campus itself. The primary focus for any major airlines is the practical exposure and the aircraft model you are trained into.

[jean_howard]

From my personal experience I would say that CTC does not guarantee you a job at the end of your course. At best you'll have to fork out over the odds money for a type rating and then you'll be "employed" for 6 months at pittance wages and then turfed out onto the street again.

[Capt T]

Hi there,

I was hoping if someone who has knowledge or who has experience going through there ATPL exams could assist?

I am going to start training very soon. For the PPL section I am going to work whilst completing it. The second part, which is hour building and studying for the exams I wish to do whilst working. Assuming that I will start this section in September time and will do very little flying because of the weather and also that I will be working 4 days a week. How long should I be expecting to study? I.e. How long before I should be comfortable enough to start sitting exams?

Thanks in advance,
Thomas

[Martin_123]

there are so many moving parts involved that any answer given here will be just a wild guess or someone else's experience which may not be applicable to you.

First things first - you assume you will have your ppl by September - which is a very realistic objective as long as the school has planes and instructors available and you are equipped with the right attitude/aptitude and cash. Should you pick a small school with only 2 - 3 planes, or perhaps a larger school that's very popular meaning it might be difficult to get the slots you need - your plan might come apart right there and then.

Once you have your PPL, for the ATPL you need to study for about 2-3 hours a day on average for about 3 months per module, at least that's the rate I'm doing it right now. If you only work 4 days a week, you might do it quicker. Again this is one of those things where the next guy will come and tell you he did all 14 subjects in 2 months followed by the next guy who will call him a liar and try to convince you that ATPLs are the hardest thing in the world and it will take you 2 years to get them done.

To be honest, I wouldn't worry too much about the timelines at your stage. Go chase that ppl first and figure out whether you even like flying or not. Statistically speaking the odds are you will drop the whole aviation thing just after your first solo

[Capt T]

Interesting - thanks for the reply.

It's something I am definitely perusing. I want to continue working whilst studying and I was hoping that the timing of the PPL finishing would give me 7 months in which to complete the studying. Obviously, I don't want to leave myself not enough time to do it and then lose another year because of the weather....

[Martin_123]

t's something I am definitely perusing

this reminds me of a conversation I heard at the shop the other day. A little girl was crying to get a certain box of cookies. The conversation with her mother went on something like this:

-Why do you want these cookies? They don't look very healthy
-Because they're tasty
-How do you know they're tasty? You've never had them
-Because they have Elisa from Frozen on it..

sigh...

determination is a good thing obviously but I can't help to wonder where's this confidence coming from? Looking at your post history, you've been in this place before, years go by and you haven't even started your ppl. I know I'm being rough on you now, but trust me, I'm hear to help you to sort yourself out - are you passionate about flying as a process or just the label that comes with a pilot uniform?

Don't put yourself in a foolish position, take one step at the time. Don't worry about what will happen/when it will happen, just get on with it and the answers will come to you themselves. In my fairly short experience I've seen guys coming up with fingers in the air announcing how they're going to be next Aer Lingus captains only to drop off somewhere just after 5th lesson, between the PPL theory exams or when the NAV section begins.. happens all the time. Sort out your medical and go flying. That's all you need to think about.

[jedw0015]

Hello all, i`m approaching the end of secondary school meaning I am currently choosing my A level choices. To what degree do these choices effect my chances of being a pilot. I have been told that choosing maths/science based subjects can be favorable, i`m not particularly gifted in these subjects so I think I would not do very well at A level at them. Does this matter or should I choose a different career path. Thanks

[Spitfire LF Mk.lX]

Hello all, i`m approaching the end of secondary school meaning I am currently choosing my A level choices. To what degree do these choices effect my chances of being a pilot. I have been told that choosing maths/science based subjects can be favorable, i`m not particularly gifted in these subjects so I think I would not do very well at A level at them. Does this matter or should I choose a different career path. Thanks

I am a year ahead of you and while I cannot give you a huge amount of information on what airlines are looking for, I will say there is plenty of information about it on here. When you move onto A level it is a major step up from GCSE, especially in maths which you mentioned. Physics would be the favorable science however usually colleges like this to be linked with a maths A level.
Make sure you get good grades in subjects that are less related than fail subjects like maths and physics. If you look on BA cadet schemes etc, they do specify minimum grades however there is no required subject.
F.Y.I
I am doing Maths, Physics, Economics and Electronics
I imagine I will be dropping Maths after my AS is complete.

[BravoSierraKilo]

As the title says I want to go fro PPL to ATPL frozen....:sad:

I will need my CPL, ME / IR , MCC , ATLP and I suppose a few hours on a 737 sim will help :ok:

It will cost me approx 30k+ to get the above and the another 30K+ if an airline decided to let me get my 737 type rating.

So after chatting to a few pilots and looking at Irish airline websites the above is the bare minimum to apply. I was told while I am getting the type rating I wont be paid but some say I will. Also I will be on a pretty crappy wage until i hit 1500hrs+ and so on

Now, I am not in it for the money and if I can pay to keep a roof over my head and feed myself I'll be one happy Pilot :cool:

So what are your views...Do I go to ATPL and risk not getting employed or do I stick with my PPL and buy a sexy 1991 SOCATA TB-10 TOBAGO :p

[guni83]

Hi all, I am very new here and need advice from other pilots.
I first started flying at a local flying school in 1997 (Sydney) because I wanted to be a pilot ever since I was little. I only got to my second solo flight and had to stop due to circumstances.

Since then, I spent the first decade attending to other priorities and the second decade thinking it is now too late for me to go back. Almost 20 years later, I have this determination again and a very supportive wife who is telling me to go for it, but I am now 32 years old, have a 3 year old daughter and a stable full time job.

I should be able to fund myself through, CPL, ME and IRO using the combination of our savings and VET Fee Help. Whilst I study, I could probably get a moonlight job somewhere to generate small income whilst my wife continues with her full time job.

However, I don't think we will be left with too much balance in the bank by the end of it and I am not sure how much more money I need to be taking into consideration for supporting myself for the first type rating and to land on the first job.

I will give everything to reach my dream, but I am not willing to make my wife and the daughter go through a struggle with little hope for entering an airliner and need to have some realistic expectations before I can make the decision.

If I complete my training, but find that I have no money left to pay for more hours and type rating, is there many examples of other pilots landing on a job without needing to come up with a small fortune?

I am not expecting that I will make as much as I do now immediately (I ended up in the world of power points and conference calls), just need to see our family through without struggling, hopefully still together as family:)

Any opinions, advises, tips would be very helpful.

[TheOne83]

Hi Guni83

Not an easy decision... what can we say other than you have to make a choice: A)Conference calls & Power Point or B)Flying career


I imagine you know your options well but since I don't read anything about it on your post I have to ask...

-Have you taken a look at the option of doing a modular course instead of a full time integrated ATPL course? if so what is your preference?
-Costs differences between integrated and modular course?
-Perhaps flying weekdays after work or weekends suits your life better together with a modular course if you can keep your job?
-Is your current employer willing to get you your job back after you are done with your training if you are absent for some time?
-What about a Medical certificate class I? Do you have one?
-Bank loans, can you get any extra financial help?

Don't get a type rating with out a job secured, it's like playing a lottery game. If you get a B737 rating who says that the company that hires you won't offer you a job on A320 or ATR72, given you pay for that rating. What I am trying to say with this is that you can end up paying for 2 type ratings instead of one or in the best case scenario the Company will take care of that. Some people may agree on this others maybe not. One thing is for sure, you have to decide what is best for you and your family and follow your dreams.

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." -Sydney J. Harris ;)

[guni83]

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." -Sydney J. Harris ;)

Thank you TheOne83, this is a very powerful quote and a moving one.

The reason I was looking at full time was because the course qualifies as a full student loan, which means no money from my savings up front, although I am going to end up with a lot of debt.

But now, I do agree that a modular model may be more suitable for me. I kept thinking that I am running out of time, but I think taking another year or so longer is better than taking my family through a financial hardship. The only loan I have at the moment is my car loan, I have no other debt or mortgage, so I could potentially borrow a little more if I had to.
This way, I keep my experience and skills to go back to if the career in aviation doesn't work out, and I can continue to put food on the table while I study.

I guess the depressing thing is, when I first started flying back in 1997, companies were still willing to invest in teaching wannabe pilots, but it looks like everything has changed now and I need to fund myself until I have all the requirements to get in. I try not to, but keep thinking what it would have been like if I never stopped.

I have 3 meetings scheduled with instructors from different schools this weekend, hopefully get some advises from them and see which of them suits my circumstance best.

[TheOne83]

Best of luck Guni83!:ok: I don't think you are running out of time, yet... when I started in my class we had people aged 42 in my school, to give you an idea.

[scavenger69]

Hi everyone.

I was thinking on giving it another shot.
Im 30. I hold a South American ICAO PPL with 500hr SE, class 1 medical, UE passport and whatnot. Im back in Europe now, looking for a good school to help me with the conversion of the PPL and the CPL+IR+ME training and ATPL theory. What would you recommend? I dont have a lot of cash, just enough to fly a few hours, buy a few books and sit for the exams. While this is a very hard industry to get into, I want to give it another shot. What do you think?

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

You don't need to convert your ICAO PPL to obtain an EASA CPL and ME/IR as far as I know.
You can start studying for your ATPL's immediately and then you could attend a CPL-ME/IR right after that.

Look at Bartolini Air in Poland. They're very good. Contact Bartho Blom, he is very useful.

[tomuchwork]

Hi guni83. My 10 cents about your situation.

TheOne83 is very right with his statement, based on that I did already a lot of decissions in my flying career(heck, if I don't do this now I will regret it forever) that at the end turned out to be not the best choice I could have done.
But that's the life of a pilot I guess.

The dream of being a pilot - I am sure a lot of individuals have this dream. Often they have a different idea how this pilot life really will be. Or they see some lucky guys who made it into that big outfit(put any flag carrier of your choice in here) and stay happliy ever after ;-) (and even there are some pilots who look for that "special" outfit to fulfill their dreams).
I met quiet a lot pilots that changed over from other jobs. Some even being a lawer, made double the money in his old job. And sometimes he regrets what he did. Because dealing with some lousy airline/biz jet operator sometimes goes on your nerves. They do not keep their promises, e.g. off days(which is important if you have family/kids) or a promised upgrade.
Life as a pilot is hard, full of hard choices(again, except the few lucky ones that somehow made it in that big company and enjoying their boring but rewarding flying life - and even this ones argue about seniority, pension plans, bidding, all the other not really important crap).

Depending how happy you are at your current job I would be carefully. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
You wrote that you have already a PPL, why not go slowly for a CPL/ME/IFR and find some local sidejob to "sniff" into this business a bit and gain already some hours.
You get as well in touch with some first "dubious"(normally they are) operators that usually will be always found in a pilots life.

It is always good to go for a dream, but if you have a kid and a wife it is as well very important to take care about them.
I missed so much of the precious "growing up" years of my first child, simply because my company(ies) kept me flying like crazy, sent me on never ending nightstops,...
I managed change that with our second child, but at the cost of my career by downsizing a lot.
It might be that now I finally found a good job that let me stay on my homebase AND keeps me flying on a nice aircraft. But it took me a lot of years to reach that and it is pure luck to be at the right time at the right place.
This might be the case with a normal job as well. But normally it is easier to find a new oportunity in the same area/city. With flying this usually never happens.

Have a look into your current situation, try to figure out how "badly" you really want to be a pilot and about possible changes for your family if you really walk that line. Be sure to include your wife into that and consider all worst case scenarios - I have seen enough divorces from "understanding" wifes after they realized in which situation they ended up. Not many women are very understanding if the husband might be away for 2 weeks in a row(yes, as well that can happen, my previous job was like that). It does not help if you are afterwards there for 12 days if you are needed in your "away" time.

Lots of things to consider....Good luck with your life and decission!

[jamesgrainge]

From a perspective of someone who is not a pilot yet, but has started the same road and reading replies with interest I have this question, if you answer yes the same as me then your answer is obvious.

Some mornings I have roughly 5 blissful seconds where I think of nothing but the fact I'm alive and have no worries. Then all of a sudden my brain switches on and I begin to think of how I'm going to pay for my CPL etc,what I need to do, how long its going to take, how I can help myself, what is the right path throughout my training and how I can speed it up to achieve my dream of flying.

From this point on I research topics, learn my ppl books for my exams, stress that I might not be able to do the ATPL theory, how much its all going to cost, how I can make more money to speed up my training and the absolute abject fear I cannot do it, up until my head hurts and I need a break. This takes me until 5pm. After this I practice on flight sim, think some more, run through my procedures for my PPL check ride. Then when I get into bed it is the very last thing I think about and how good it will be in a few years time to be stood in that uniform flying something, and hope and pray nothing upsets this plan and dream and all the effort ive put in and will continue to put in. This happens every single day of the week, no matter what.

If this is your day then yes you want to be a pilot, more than anything in the world.

[tomuchwork]

Just "fell" over this thread here in the forum. I admit, I shared his thoughts sometimes, especially on my job which kept me away for weeks at a time.

Read by yourself. And don't forget, something that is new and interesting now might be boring and repetitive after a few years....

http://www.pprune.org/questions/575465-flying-not-what-i-thought-would-like.html


I am especially interested in that discussion because my oldest son want's to become a pilot as well. I tried everything to talk him out of this, I guess I will let him read obove thread. I hope that makes him think and he decides for a "proper" profession(no offence intended, but older chaps will know what I mean).

[Restricted_Airspace]

Hi Everyone,

First and foremost, my name is Jason and I have only recently joined the forums, although I have been lurking in the background reading posts and information for quite some time now.

I have recently immigrated from Australia to London and am looking to undertake my coveted Professional Pilots License. As I am not British (Irish by birth) and I do not own property, getting a loan for my training is out of the question, so I am looking down the pathway of the modular training route. I have spent the last few months researching different options, school and fees so that I can properly plan my journey and was hoping that perhaps some of you may be able to have a quick look over it to make sure I haven't missed anything?

I know there are many threads on the forum about training options, and I have read as many as I can find, however I just wanted to make sure that my decision was in line with these and that I haven't left anything out.

So without further delay, here we are:
Stage 1 - PPL


Location - Stapleford Flight Centre

Cost Breakdown -
Exam Fees - £180
Joining Fee - £15
Membership Fee - £100
Medical Fee - £350
45 Prepaid Hours - £6534

Total - £7179Estimated Completion Length - 4 months if I able to fly every second weekend

Stage 2 - Night Flying Rating


Location - Stapleford Flight Centre

Cost Breakdown -
3 Hours Dual Cessna 152 - £498
3 Hours Solo Cessna 152 - £435
Take off & Landing Costs - £500

Total - £1433Estimated Completion Length - 1 month based of the same parameters as above

Stage 3 - Beginning Modular Training

Location - CTC Flight School

Course - Module 1

Cost Breakdown -
APTL Theory & First Exam Attempt - £5950

Estimated Completion Time - 10 months (6 months are recommended, but I will also be working to get ready for the next stage)

Stage 4 - Modular Training Continuation

Location - CTC Flight School

Course - Module 2 - 5

Cost Breakdown -
All Training & Accommodation - £33,800
Food - £3000 (depending on time)

Total - £36,800
Estimated Completion Time - Unknown as I am still waiting for a reply from CTC, but if anyone has information, I will be happy to listen :)

Stage 4 - Module 6

Location: CTC Flight School

Course - Module 6 (Airline Qualification Course)

Cost Breakdown:
All Training & Accommodation: £10,500
Selection Fee: £275
Food: £225

Total: £11,000
Estimated Completion Time: 6 Weeks (as per website)


After all these stages (I have allowed myself approximately 4 years to fully complete everything so that I can also have practice in between courses and save some money for each) I am left with a fATPL with IR.

I am aware that license application fees are on top of the above listed costs however, was hoping some of you may be able to shed some light on whether or not I have missed some crucial part of the course or have overlooked any major or significant costs.

Also, if anybody have any ideas as to whether this is an appropriate plan of action or if it it would be better to approach it from a different angle, I am all ears :)

Thanks again guys and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter.

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Do everything at Stapleford. CTC is just a sausage company, Stapleford is one of those places that when I visited gave me a great impression as far as quality of training goes. The only thing preventing me from training in the UK is the horrendous exchange rate with €, otherwise either Stapleford or PAT would be the place I would train at. They have excellent pass rates.
On top of that, they're part of the Wings Alliance program – something I put hope on against over-priced sausage factories like CTC.

[guni83]

Thanks everyone for your comments.
I ended up seeing a few instructors at different schools and booked to start flying again after the Easter holiday.

I am sure I will regret it. But I either regret doing it, or regret not doing it.
Hopefully it will all be worthwhile in the end.

[tomuchwork]

guni83, that sounds good. I am glad you made this step.

I hope and wish everything works out for you as desired. Good luck!

[Restricted_Airspace]

Thanks very much. Would you consider Stapleford Flight Centre to be as well recognised internationally as CTC or Oxford? I only ask as I want to make sure I increase my chances of finding a job after the completion.

[jamesgrainge]

They give the same licence? CTC supply sleazy jet directly seemingly. There are hundreds of threads here regarding this issue and it comes down to whether you believe the conspiracy theorists or your own ability in passing everything and sourcing a job yourself. There are other schools, look to the eastern block, which have a good tie with other LCC, many successful students now flying, and will save you A LOT of money.

[Alex Whittingham]

It is surprisingly difficult to work out the total cost of training because the various ATOs' websites include or exclude different elements. We have spent some time trying to create a budget calculator (http://www.wingsalliance.eu/commercial-pilot-training/pilot-training-budget-calculator/), it's only for Wings Alliance schools, not CTC, but it will give you an idea of the total costs including test fees, accommodation etc. We include a 10% contingency as well, just in case, but even without that the figures for Stapleford that we calculated are a bit higher than those you quote.

[redsnail]

guni83, you're in Australia right? Be cautious of advice from other countries as their aviation scene is different to Australia's.
I worked in Australia for 10 years and now I am in the UK working as a pilot.

First things first. Where do you see yourself working once you have a CPL and on what wage? If you can't afford to support your family on that wage, think very carefully about getting that CPL.
OK. So you can afford it, how about that Class 1 medical? Any conditions such as colour blindness, diabetes etc.
I believe Australia is going through some interesting times WRT general aviation etc. Have a look at that market and see how the employment is. Your first job is likely to be as an instructor (more costs) or out bush flying. (Distance? Family?). What are the current requirements for Virgin or Qantas? If you can't get in with them, Cathay?

You must discuss this with your family as this will affect them significantly.

[Halfwayback]

Redsnail gives wise counsel -as always.

Forget the starry-eyed dreamers. In the end you are sitting in a flight deck driving a jet and managing systems. Yes it is most certainly the best view from any office window but it is not without drawbacks.

May I suggest you read through some of the threads on PPRuNe which may cause scales to fall from your eyes.

I speak as one with both military and airline careers and over 12K hours on jets. I thoroughly enjoy all my flying but I can only suggest that you research all aspects thoroughly and discuss it fully with your family before you commit to such a life changing move.
HWB

[heisj]

Hey guys,

I've been reading through the few major threads and decided to ask for some advice on my own situation..

Turning 25, USA/Finland dual citizen, no college degree(had the chance:ugh:), 0 experience so far.

Basically I have been saving up for sometime now and I had planned it quite through: going to FL, getting my licenses and start building those hours by instructing. I've visited a few schools onsite and got a good vibe off one operating out of LNA at West Palm Beach.

Sounded pretty straight forward and a good option for me as I have the right to work and live in the US.. But then it hit me, the lack of a college degree got me thinking again. That basically means I won't be able to get a job at major airline in the US.

There are many options as I see it:
-Go through my original plan, instruct and maybe land a job at a regional for some years and possibly go on outside the US to a major airline in the ME/Asia. Also there are possibilities to get a 4-year degree off an online program while doing my training(too much work with the flight training going on?).

-EASA licenses via US school. If I got EASA instructing licenses, could I instruct in a US school(..teaching EASA)? I guess it could be a good chance as I have the right to work in the US? No hassle of obtaining work permits for a instructor, in the eyes of a school. Get a good amount of hours and come back to Europe.

-Do the FAA route, build some time and eventually do the conversion or is that just unnecessary work compared to going with EASA from the start?


Any thoughts?

Thanks!:)

[jamesgrainge]

Is a degree necessary?

If you are going integrated in Europe the costs are extremely high but less need for a degree as training is aimed totally towards Airline recruitment with less than 300 hours flight time.

The rest I cannot answer as don't have experience.

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

You don't need a degree in Europe and a modular trainee will have the same credentials of an integrated trainee.

[heisj]

Is a degree necessary?

If you are going integrated in Europe the costs are extremely high but less need for a degree as training is aimed totally towards Airline recruitment with less than 300 hours flight time.

The rest I cannot answer as don't have experience.
Well the degree point of view was more towards future employment in the US market and specifically talking about major airlines. I believe you have a good shot at getting a job with a regional but the big guys require a 4-year degree.

[jamesgrainge]

So you are answering your own question. If you stay in US you need a degree. As I said, if you plan to do an integrated course in EU you won't need a degree for a FO job with a LCC, it means very little after training. Maybe try more US based forums, this is very euro centric.

[heisj]

Thanks jamesgrainge, but I have already decided that a high priced integrated course in Europe is out of the picture. I feel it is not worth it, especially in my case as I have a US citizenship. I should have also probably stated in my OP that returning to Europe is not a must for me. I'll definitely also try jetcareers etc for some advice.

Any other thoughts?

[am111]

Hi all,

This is my first post, so apologies if tacking my question onto this thread isn't the done thing. It seemed like the most sensible place to put it, rather than starting a new thread.

Here is my situation, I am 25 and currently working for my father in his independent business. For various reasons I have decided to pursue a career as an airline pilot. A dream I had as a child, but with 9/11 and the 2008 crash, a career path that during my formative years seemed unrealistic. I therefore concentrated on taking over the family business.

I have got my first class medical and have passed the skills assessment at CAE OAA, so I'm pretty much ready to go. I have a target start date of September as I have agreed to help my dad run the business until then. I have to keep him sweet after all.

My question is, what can I do to immerse myself in the world of aviation? Firstly because I am fascinated by it all but also because I worry that my CV will look a little sparse at the other end of flying school. I want to make sure I start giving myself the best possible chances to land that ever elusive first job. Unfortunately I will be working full time, including Saturday's, pretty much right up until I start my training so will only really have 2 days spare a week. Also, financially, every spare penny is being squirrelled to try and keep my debt as small as possible.

Obviously I have made my mind up on being a commercial pilot and going the integrated route. So I guess I am looking for any advice you wish you had received when you were in my position. Whether you're a seasoned captain with thousands of hours or you're treading water in the holding pool at the other end of an Ab-Initio course.

Thanks for your time!

[redsnail]

For something comparatively cheap, pop over to your nearest gliding club. You'll learn stuff (eg what the rudder is for) and chat to folks who may be of some use.

[am111]

Hi Redsnail,

Thanks. After reading these forums extensively I had wondered how to avoid becoming one of those airline pilots that doesn't know how to fly. So gliding seems like a good hobby to get into. I've got in touch with Surrey Hills Gliding Club over at Kenley Aerodrome (if anyone is familiar with it), so we'll see if it's something I can afford at the moment.

Any other words of wisdom out there?

[pilot2be2]

If you got into OAA why not apply for one of the airline cadet programmes? Would be better to be attached to an airline instead of going it alone?

[am111]

Hi Pilot2be2,

Whilst that would definitely be the ideal situation, unfortunately the likes of BA, EasyJet and even W!ZZ Air over at CTC all require A-Levels, which regrettably I am lacking in. Furthermore, most of them are closed at the moment, and won't likely open until the autumn for an intake next spring. Couple that with the fierce competition for places on these cadet programs, it will delay the start of my training significantly with little chance of me being in any better of a position. I'm keen to get my training done and my foot on the first rung of that ladder as quickly as possible as who knows how long this period of growth in the industry will last.

[zmzmtm]

Subject: I'd like to know how you guys think about Korean Airline Pilot Program (K-APP) with FSA (Flight Safety Academy, Florida).

Hello I'm from South Korea and gonna take K-APP in a few months. Actually I'm a student of Korea Aerospace University (KAU) and KAU offers me a 1,000hr Flight Training Program called K-APP.

The course is: (All these costs are included housing and living expenses)
Phase 1: Ground school (at KAU) : about $4,000
Phase 2: Flight Training at FSA (Beginner~CPL, 250hr): $86,000
Phase 3: Time building (250~1,000hr) from FSA Instructor ($44,000) or F/O at Ameriflight ($57,000) - Phase 3 cost could be loaned from national bank.

K-APP students can fail at every phase. Since the program has started, about 20% of students have failed. Once they drop out, they cannot apply to KE or LJ for his lifetime.
But if they successfully survive to the program, they can apply to KE (KE does not guarantee to pass them, but I've heard most of those survivors have joined KE.).

My questions are:
1. How do you think about this program? If you get a chance to take this program, would you do it? now I'm considering joining to usual flight academy because of failure rate, disadvantages of failure, and expenses (I have to pay total expense $150,000 of 1,000hr.). Which course is better do you think? Please give me some advise.
2. If someone who are studying in FSA is there, could you advise me how much time will it take for the Phase 2? I heard FSA has so many students that flying schedules are often delayed. And could you tell me how difficult it is to succeed in their course?

[MiggHD]

hello guys, i am new to this website, and I want to get some advice about becoming a pilot but dont know where to start.

I am 17 years old and just about to do my GSCEs, after GSCE's I want to join a flight school, I have looked at some in the UK, that do everything for £60,000 (PPL, ATPL and MCC) and I have looked abroad too, Namely at Emirates Avation Uni, but its a ridiculous amount to pay for an 18 month course, (£108,000)

I dont know where to start, so some advice would be appriciated
cheers

[hsmram]

hello everybody


i have always dreamed of becoming an airline pilot few days ago i decided that it's about time i go for it i have family in canada and USA and they said they will help go to any good school in there
so i started reading articles about it pilot career... some of them says thats it's the best time to start and some says that alot of pilots out there cant find a job i really dont know what to believe or what to do and im so sad about it .
i want to make this big step but im afraid at the end it will for nothing and then i ll have to find an other job and all that time and money will be a waste
would some body please help me i am really lost here.:(

thank you in advence

[arazmed]

Hi everyone. I am 27 year old doctor living in Turkey, i have graduated from med school on 2014. i always wanted to be a pilot but because of some reasons i had do choose medicine. but after years i feel that i dont belong here, i mean i love this profession, helping people but dreams ..you know. I am in a situation that cant apply for fully funded cadet programs in Turkey (thy, sunexpress, atlasjet etc.) because i am not a Turkish citizen..I have to pay for all my education and go to private school. as you understand its really hard to quit and start for a new career and at the end its not 100% that i will easly find job. Would like to hear your opinions about it. Thanks all

[wonder88]

If you have the right to live and work in the EU you can apply for cadet schemes with BA, Easy jet, Aer Lingus etc.

If you're a doctor you should be able to do a bit more research into the avenues that are open to you but there is no magic formula and you could find that you hate the commercial aviation industry even more than medicine. :E

Be careful and good luck.

[AaronForster17]

Hi there, i am an aspiring airline pilot and am currently looking at the different routes to becoming a pilot. I am looking at the integrated route and understand there is a big financial gap to overcome before being able to undergo this integrated training. I was just wondering how anyone who is a successful pilot or is currently undergoing training managed to finance this. Also how some pilots have managed to do it without having the bank of mum and dad. I am also looking at the RAF route as it can help me learn to fly and save up in the mean time to convert across to commercial after my time of service. Any advice on these subjects would be massively appreciated!

[markevans]

Hey artie711,

Learning to fly is totally awesome and even better when you obtain your PPL.

I live in Johannesburg, South Africa so I learn't how to become a pilot with a local aviation school called Airborne Aviation (Airborne Aviation - Flight School South Africa (http://airborneaviation.co.za/)).

We are very lucky with the weather due to the climate in South Africa so I was able to spend more time in the air and getting hands on with the aircraft rather than sitting in the class room.

I have been to the north of France in the past and know that whilst summers are nice, the winters can be challenging in the sky.

I would recommend taking the time to learning how to fly in a country that almost guarantees good flying conditions all year round so that you can get maximum airtime in a shorter space in time if that is possible for you.

Hope this advice helps.

Happy flying :)

[Adamk1]

Hello!

My name is Adam and I am 16 from Newcastle! I'm often found at the foot of either Runway 07 or 25 at Newcastle International; it's fair to say aviation is the thing I have the most passion and drive for.

Why, you may wonder, am I here? Pure and simple: advice! With so many conflicting views regarding the best route to the flight deck, I thought I best join somewhere which can help me sort the fact from the fiction from what I have read and heard, in the hope that, one day, I will be able to give advice to others where I am now.

My aspiration is to be a commercial pilot, I don't care for which airline (within reason!), I just want to fly.

My post centres mainly around my aim to begin training for my PPL and also which A level subjects I have chosen.

Although I have not yet committed to anything, I think I will be studying A levels in Biology, Geography, Government and Politics and History. It is my understanding that maths and physics are non-essential, which is excellent as on the whole they are not my strongest subjects, but I fully understand the areas relevant to flight (it's circle theorems and optical fibres that go over my head :ugh:).

In regards to whether or not it is a good idea to do my PPL now, please let me know. I want to begin training over the summer, since I have 11 weeks of freedom. I doubt it will be, but please asvise if this is a bad idea.

I hope that is all leads nicley on to integrated training for an ATPL licence, but, if it doesn't, please tell me :ok:

Thank you very much for reading this far, and I look forward to being a part of this forum

[Krautwald]

It is essential to have some sort of other education and preferably work experience you can fall back on. In this light, it is perfectly ok to pick your A-levels according to your best ability. If those subjects are what you can excel at academically, they will lead you to a matching degree with good grades, and motivated work. Which is a much better back up than a mediocre engineering or science degree that never got you a job because you chose something you are not good at, just for its "relevance". You might give it a thought to get into a field that could be used in aviation, because it might give you valuable contacts for pilot jobs, as well as keep you in the business should you encounter some kind of medical trouble or whatever, that could make you an ex-pilot. (Yeah I know, not the primary thought for a 16yo, but it´s a reality - **** happens everywhere). In this case, you would be better off switching to one of your airlines´ ground departments, than having to start over with something you haven´t looked at for 10-20 years, with an old degree.

Other than that, if you can do your PPL at 16 and talk about "getting your" ATPL just like that, you are probably comfortably sponsored by your parents. So all in all, with a privileged outlook to getting a degree and then obtaining an ATPL with no significant debt, you stand a good chance to ride off the rougher waves of the aviation business.

Just go on with what you´re doing, your folks seem to have money and you have decades of time to shape this out nicely, which puts you at the top of the wannabe food chain already.

[Sierra_Tango69]

Q. I have absolutely ZERO knowledge in this area, and yes I admit I could scower the web for these answers, but I thought I'd try my luck here!..
I'm living in the UK, what sort of time period and general cost would it be for a PPL?

And in the flight training world, how does one go by learning to fly say a vintage WW2 aircraft?....

p.s I'm loving the positivity in this thread!

[parkfell]

Spotting at Newcastle......a good start.

Your ultimate goal to fly......excellent. The question is what is the best path to achieve it.
Stay at school, do well in the 'A' levels. Maths, Physics, & English at 'O' level with descent grades. Probably higher education so that aged 21/22 you have sufficient maturity to start with the professional training.
Obtain your class one medical.
Now the choice is Integrated or Modular route.
No advantage in doing your PPL just yet.
Try some gliding first. Visit ATC Newcastle.

[PilotSchools]

Are you just looking to do the degree to get funds to pay for both the degree and flight? There is Epic Flight Academy who offers flight training financing (http://www.epicflightacademy.com/flight-trianing-financing) through someone but I'm not sure but it's based off of your motivation and not credit. Since you're from France you might not have credit so this would be good. Or you can always try Everglades University if your heart is set on a degree while training because it's all online.

[Lfc1997]

Ive just finished my a-levels merely passing with poor grades however am very passionate about becoming a commercial pilot. I am looking to undergo the modular route and was wondering how damaging are poor a levels to my chances.
Kind regards.

[NovemberWhiskyLima]

A-Levels results themselves should not be too big a deal to be a commercial pilot but it seems, from reading the forums, that it is more and more common to at least have a university degree if you are aiming for bigger airlines.

So you will still probably want to get a degree, and that's really where bad results affect you more.

[AerRyan]

Costs €70,000 to get the full licence in Cork, is it worth it?

[NovemberWhiskyLima]

Come to Canada. It is cheaper, by a mile.

[AerRyan]

I have free accommodation in Cork while I'm doing the course, what's the costs in Canada?

[NovemberWhiskyLima]

I'm at Harv's Air in Manitoba. To CPL should be about 45K-50K CAD.

Accommodation here is available at $410CAD/Mth if you fly more than 15 hours a month.

[shortfinals34]

As oppose to been told they don't discrimate on age (maybe because they're aren't allowed to) would you rather just be told by the airlines in clear terms "we don't take any SO or FO s over 30 years without prior commercial experience and 500 hours on aircraft in excess of 20 tonnes MTOM" or whatever?

That way theres no ambiguity and people can concentrate on reacreational flying or call it a day altogether with aviation and dedicate time to other things in life.Like achievable career goals family....etc.

[ScottNX]

(First post!)

I'm 19 and I've wanted to be an airline pilot for years. At the minute, I'm studying a fairly prestigious politics degree which includes a year's worth of work experience working in Parliament in the UK (I live in the UK). Until a few months ago, the dream was in the back of my mind. I put myself off pursuing it when I was around 16 because I knew that my parents wouldn't be able to fund it. This is still the case.

Yesterday, I had my first ever flight in a GA plane. It was a trial flight from Sherburn Aero Club in a PA-28. Absolutely loved every minute of it and I didn't want to come down. I had a smile on my face for the whole ride and I wish I could go back up today! But obviously, money's the biggest problem...

I'm doing fairly well financially as a student. I don't spend any money at all on going out and drinking at uni so I'm doing okay compared to most. Obviously, I can't fund flying on this money though as it's not a constant stream of money. Yesterday, although it only lasted an hour, was the decider that I want to pursue my licenses, and if possible to pursue a career in aviation. But I'm stuck with that money problem, and I don't know what I can do.

Overall, there's a few questions I have in mind:

1) Would it be possible to fund it during university, or should I wait 'til I graduate? Basically, does anyone have any experiences in this case?
2) If I choose to wait until I graduate, will it be then too late to pursue a career as a pilot? I know there are many variables!
3) What's the general age at which it's seen as being too late to go into airlines?

Also, would my degree actually help me out in aviation? I know for sure that I won't drop out as I would like the backup of a degree. But my year in Westminster etc. can't hurt my CV, can it?

Thanks in advance.

[Hasan7]

Hello everyone! I am finally following my dream and hope to join a flight school in preferably the next 3 months but before I choose my destination I need to minimize the chances of me being an an employed pilot like many I know. Would it be wiser to join the EASA internship course in the European flight centre where you get all the necessary licenses FAA & EASA and build around 1000 hours more or less (if given a job). Or the second plan is to train in australia and then upon completion try to instruct or get any flying job, but this plan as I think is risky because and correct me if I'm wrong pilots and flight instructors do not fall under the skilled workers in australia. Keep in mind that (frozen) atpl is the minimum requirement to the airlines in my country and region, but of course there are hundreds waiting for a job with low hours so I need to build a few hundred hours maybe a thausand to get ahead. Which path do you think will work out better? I'm open to other suggestions as well I don't mind flying anywhere as long as i fly. And oh please don't suggest Canada as it seemed great but i have tried to get a visa twice and they wasted 6 months of my life only to refuse with no obvious reason, their process was VERY slow. Appreciate your help.

[teteay]

@markevans
I came on this forum, because i'm looking for clues on what flight schools and and where i can go, been researching on different school in SA,but i'm very happy that you made mention of Airborne Aviation, can you tell more about the flight smh and what is the cost implication of doing PPL with them,I would love if we can communicate as regards this as its will make my decision making on what flight school to attend a lot easier,
thanks

[Glasgowflying]

Hi guys new member derek from Glasgow.

To cut a long story short I have been interested in aviation since school but not coming from a background where becoming an airline pilot was thought to be possible financially etc it was always on the back burner with memorable conversations with parents and careers advisers telling me you can't do that!

Basically just now I'm a self employed heating and ventilation engineer about to embark on training to get my ppl first off and then onto most probably a modular course to gain my commercial licence.

I've managed to save up the cost of the training up over the past year and a bit so have just over £50k to invest in my training.

Can anyone give me advice of flying schools please ?

[Efato75kts]

Alright ,this will be a long ,long ,long road that I am prepared to take but it will be worth it and that feeling of doing it all through hard work will be much sweeter.Fast forward 7-8 years from today ,I see my self with my fATPL.

At 21 years old ,I have 3 kids a,3 step sons and a very supportive other half all in one roof.
I am currently working full time ,self employed doing security work and furniture delivery.I literally have no off days which means I end up with just over 2k a month. Some bills paid ,cash saved and reduced family time is the result.

No holidays ,fancy clothes or other treats that can all always come later in life.

I have around 30 hours of PPL training ,solo done and savings of 5k to get me through my PPL with the 6 exams left .I am hoping to be done by February - April depending on the weather and aiming to fly 10 hours a month.I think it is achievable.:*

Ideally by April I would like to have my PPL with me .In the meantime I will be saving £500+ a month until June to fund the Bristol ground school package which will cost around £3500 (test fees included)
After my PPL ,it is the ATPL theory and hour building to keep current .2 years from June 2017 I hope to have ATPL done and the 100+ hours needed to start CPL. This time frame will give me time to also put some money away for the CPL £7k at PTT Aviation which is where I intend to finish all my training.

N/B: It will probably be wise to also listen out on any fully sponsored cadet schemes such as the Aer lingus,BA ones etc.

I am estimating the CPL course to take me 3 - 4 months to complete subject to my availability and weather.By this time ,it will be nearing the end of 2019.

After CPL I will get my ME then carry on working for the next 3 years to save up for the expensive IR.
IR done ,on to the MCC and JOC.
If no opportunities come up after this then I will save again to get my instructor rating and enjoy being a pilot and a teacher till bigger doors open.

I believe it is one of the best ways to do it if you are not blessed with rich parents or other quick access avenues .
My jobs are secured as the companies I work for are very established and we are currently expanding :D

My advice to fellow inspiring pilots is do not get pressured when you see 18/19 year olds being offered jobs at various airlines through such and such ATO. You simply do not have to sell your grandma to become a pilot .Keep your head up ,work hard and remember if it is your ultimate dream then you will achieve it !
I am not experienced enough but I have spoken to a lot of people in the industry and as you probably already know ,it mostly about who you know.It is a small world. A close relative who is a captain could not stress how many CV`s literally end up in the bin .

Point is ,have an open mind ,train ,build your network and keep your log book clean. At least that is what I intend to do.

I will post back in April to update on my training :ok:

[jamesgrainge]

Good luck. However, if you are going to work for 3 years to save for the IR, would you not be better off relaxing and enjoying the experience and spreading your training out. Trying to rush it will stress you out, trust me on this, make your plan but have a life as well.

Worst case scenario! If something dreadful happened in a year or two's time how would you feel about having given everything and having very little to show for it?

[portsharbourflyer]

Under JAA, after finishing exams it was 18 month to do the CPL and 36 months to complete the IR, I don't think EASA have changed this? you wont be able to save for three years for the IR as your exam credits will expire. However you could do a Single Engine IR by the compentency based IR route at a lower expense to preserve your exam credits and then upgrade it later to a Multi IR later on. I would recommend for the CPL to try and take a month off to finish it, doing it part time will drag it out and more than likely you will end up doing more hours to complete it. Plus don't under estimate trying to do training along side your busy schedule.

The other thing to consider is getting your first flying job will involve relocating and / or staying away. It isn't easy to uproot children for a short time and first officer pay is rarely enough to pay mortgage in one location and rent in another. Completing the training was not the difficult part, finding a job not as such the difficult part either. Getting a job that pays enough and fits with family life, that is tricky.

Good luck; btw self employed security work can fit well around part time flight instructing. The other thing to consider is you could do CPL-FI, start instructing and building hours before doing your IR.

[FlyANA]

This is going to go down like a lead balloon. But if you've got three kids then how about taking that money and providing a great life for them, especially through the formative years. Get a PPL and a decent land based job, fly for fun and do family holidays!

[FlyANA]

Coming to the end of an MPl with sponsorship and employment, but, I've been in this industry a long time and I've seen it from all sides. Just playing devils advocate that being in the pointy end isn't the be all and end all.

[ABZ777]

Under JAA, after finishing exams it was 18 month to do the CPL and 36 months to complete the IR, I don't think EASA have changed this? you wont be able to save for three years for the IR as your exam credits will expire.

I don't think this is correct - I believe you have 36 months from passing your last ATPL theory exam to get both the CPL and IR.

[rudestuff]

Whilst it's admirable that you want to save up to pay for everything - gaps of 3 years are only going to make things harder. By all means save up to get your PPL, hour building and ATPL exams. But don't think ATPL's will be easy - especially if you are working full time. I timed out on my first set and basically gave up work for 3 months to get them done. If you do your ME course, then wait 3 years to start your IR, you'll end up having to do it all again anyway. Best to group everything together as much as possible - use the MEP training as a warm-up for MEIR (You don't need to pass the MEP test, only the IR test!) I would recommend saving to get hour building and ATPLs done, then borrow the last £20k for CPL/IR. You'll get into the game 3 years earlier and have a career 3 years longer. By the time you retire, those final 3 years salary will have paid for your second home in Spain. Put it on a 0% card, it's not like you'd have to mortgage the house. You have 18 months from your first ATPL exam to finish them, then 3 years from the last exam to get both CPL and IR.

[SeventhHeaven]

Honestly, you're 21 years old, already responsible for a wife an three (!) kids, and not educated. Do you REALLY think it's a sound financial investment for yourself or your family?

Also, rethink your timeline. You're much much better off saving until you can fund the entirety of your course in one go, to minimize downtime and out-of-currency expenses, and to make your CV stronger.

Have you thought about doing this as a hobby only? No shame in it ..

[wiggy]

Alright ,this will be a long ,long ,long road 7-8 years from today ,I see my self with my fATPL........

Leaving aside we have absolutely no idea what the job market will look like in 7-8 years so far, so good...

.... ,I have 3 kids a,3 step sons and a very supportive other half all in one roof

Ok.

No holidays ,fancy clothes or other treats that can all always come later in life.

You might think that, having had kids myself I think in all honesty you are going to have trouble with holding that line for 7 years plus, (especially if the kids are young). What happens post the fATPL - Will it all hold together if you end up working for a company that requires you to be flexible about where you are based?

I know there's the standard line of "you've got to be in it to win" but I'd suggest if you haven't done so just for a while forget "living the dream" and sit down for really long chat with your airline pilot relative and grill him/her on the realities of the job - not the rose tinted specs version.. I mean the realities of pay scales, early starts, late finishes, split shifts, possible commuting/basing.

If you do that and still go ahead with your plan then in all honesty good luck.

[Efato75kts]

That is a good point ,I will be best of taking time off and finish off CPL when ready and as some have suggested borrow money for the IR to be within the timescale.

I agree getting the job that pays enough and fits well with my life will be the biggest hurdle .All I can do is stay positive and cross one bridge at a time.
Thanks for your sound advice

[jamesgrainge]

Coming to the end of an MPl with sponsorship and employment, but, I've been in this industry a long time and I've seen it from all sides. Just playing devils advocate that being in the pointy end isn't the be all and end all.

I partially agree. However if it's something you want to do there is no turning off the desire. And for those of us who work to fund it and go down the hard route, the desire is often impossible to ignore. Aviation is a beautiful mistress with a tendency to be a cold hard bitch capable of heartbreak.

Personally I think this should be more about asking the questions to get the OP to think about his path, not dissuading him.

[Efato75kts]

Ofcourse it is a sound investment .I do not intend to get in to a debate about wha is the definition of stuccess.As far as I am aware different paths can take you to the same destination.Just a difference in specific individual cirmustances is what influences us to pursue other ways of being successful.
Perhaps your idea of a great investment is having a degree ? Which depending on the course it can last anything from 3-6 (masters,PHD ).Again you can aslo question one who goes down that route ,including the loans from University ,time ,family etc .Ofcourse with no guarantee of a job.
I was achieved A star in GSCE Mathematics ,Physics,Chemistry ,Biology and English Literature .The rest were C graded.I also hold a BEng in Aeronautical Engineering having graduated when I was 20. A qualified cupping therapist to add to that.
I must say you sound a little bit judgemental but my apologies if it is not the case .

With regards to saving to do it all at once , I will be happy to have my PPL first ,ATPL and 150+ hours and end up borrowing for the IR and CPL .I have always been a go getter and very positive minded and doors will open ! :)

[SeventhHeaven]

Success is not guaranteed either, especially (unfortunately) more so for modular guys.

I imagine being an FI is pretty much a no go either, considering your financial commitments to your spouse&kids

[Efato75kts]

I appreciate your concerns
and advice .Do not get me wrong kids are very happy spending every second we can together.Apart from major holidays they have a cheerful lifestyle.I am adamant I have it in balance .
Furthermore it is vital you have a supportive spouse and work as a team.:)

The crunch ,as you say will be about split shifts ,late finishes etc which in all honesty is a valid consideration as I think many pilots have been or are in this situation.

[cloudbash]

Good luck - the journey to a fATPL isn't easy. For some finding a job is difficult for others relatively simple.

If it's something you want to do then why not? You'll see a mixed bag of comments on pprune, some of which are supportive and some not. Take them all with a pinch of salt. Only you know how capable you are and the impact this may have on your family....whether positive or negative.

[Efato75kts]

Exactly the point I wished someone made .I do not see why would one discourage someone to pursue their passion just because there is a chance the he/she might of those who find it difficult to get that first job.

[portsharbourflyer]

Actually I was going to say why don't you look into the fixed axis microlight world. Once you do you PPL(A) convert to a fixed axis microlight, to become a fixed axis microlight instructor you wont need CPL or ATPL theoretical knowledge, you will just need to get the required total fixed axis hours and do the microlight instructors course. Hour building on a fixed axis mircolight will be cheap. Also fixed axis microlight instructors get paid 40 to 45 pound per flight hour, much higher than group A instructors. This will be the cheapest way for you to get into paid aviation employment. As a fixed axis instructor you may not be earing that much less than what you do now. While working as a fixed axis instructor continue to save towards doing the frozen ATPL. As you are flying for a living there is no rush to get the frozen ATPL done, and even in 10 years time at 31 you are still plenty young enough to make a go of it.

[JumboJet1999]

^ I was once told by a C42 flying school that microlight hours can't towards towards the CPL?

[portsharbourflyer]

No they don't that is correct, and you have totally missed the point I am trying to make. The point is, it will get him the cheapest and quickest way into a full time aviation employment, Fixed axis mircrolight instructors can make 25 to 35 k a year, pretty much what he is earning from two jobs.
If he is desperate to fly he will be flying with the minimum investment. He can still over the years use these earnings to save to do the CPL, hour build and ME IR. At the end of 10 years he will have only have 200 hour CPL/IR as far as "group A" hours are concerned, but potentially 1000s hours on fixed axis microlights, although the fixed axis hours do not count it is potentially a better flying CV than 200 hour CPL/IR while trying to stay current in two non aviation related jobs.

[Prophead]

Go for it.

I would seriously look into the CBIR route though. If you get you IR(R) then you can be logging hours towards your CBIR whilst hour building and doing the exams.

[Efato75kts]

Nothing with wrong with having kids early .It is life my friend .My kids have a top life like any other happy kids.
I actually took on my wife who had three kids already ,which are now my step sons.Sounds like a man enough to step up to the plate in my opinion and they would take a bullet for me any day ! And I am in it to give them a rock lean on .
Disregard your negativity because I will make it and certainly not at the expense of my kids happines,well being or their future.

[portsharbourflyer]

Couincil Van, that must be a while back, no turboprop first officer job currently pays enough that it would get you a salary multiple to buy a family home. In most parts of the country not even a 1 bed flat, Haven't seen a turbo-prop job that pays much more than 26k starting for someone with no previous turbine time, (31k for a channel island based operator but in the channel islands 31k is only the same as 26k on the mainland due to the accommodation expense). 3.5 x 26 = 90k,

[portsharbourflyer]

Eastern about 22k a year with an 18 k three year bond.
Flybe about 26k a year
Aurigny 31 k (but paying Guernsey accomadation rates)
Isles of Scilly Skybus about 22k per year
Logan Air around the 24 to 28 k region.
King Air First Officer jobs about 18 to 25 k a year.

So on average as I said about 25/26k a year, there may be a bit of sector pay to add.

Modular Candidate with low hours has no route into Easyjet.

Ryanair may be a good way to build the heavy hour quickly but you need top put up 28000 Euros for the type rating if you do get in, not sure on his current plan he could afford the type rating as well.

[jamesgrainge]

Eastern about 22k a year with an 18 k three year bond.
Flybe about 26k a year
Aurigny 31 k (but paying Guernsey accomadation rates)
Isles of Scilly Skybus about 22k per year
Logan Air around the 24 to 28 k region.
King Air First Officer jobs about 18 to 25 k a year.

So on average as I said about 25/26k a year, there may be a bit of sector pay to add.

Modular Candidate with low hours has no route into Easyjet.

Ryanair may be a good way to build the heavy hour quickly but you need top put up 28000 Euros for the type rating if you do get in, not sure on his current plan he could afford the type rating as well.

However, Ryanair, Wizz et al pay double that starting salary. Or used to last time I did the research. Yes you have to front the TR, but loans are available from banks based on your offer of employment.

[s4ex]

Nothing with wrong with having kids early .It is life my friend .My kids have a top life like any other happy kids.
I actually took on my wife who had three kids already ,which are now my step sons.Sounds like a man enough to step up to the plate in my opinion and they would take a bullet for me any day ! And I am in it to give them a rock lean on .
Disregard your negativity because I will make it and certainly not at the expense of my kids happines,well being or their future.

I've been folowing this thread for a couple of days now, and here's my 2 cents.

I believe, nobody said that it's too early to have kids. It was more gesture of sympathy to mention that it's a tough situation, and You only deserve :D for being on top of that.

It is very important, that Your second half supports You in such a circumstances, and You are really happy in that sense and should be thankful.
Just out of curiosity, the question I have is - what would You do if Your wife was not so supportive? Would You still pursue Your dream? I will understand if it's personal and You won't be willing to answer that.

I think what others are trying to tell is not so negative, but rather a reasonable look at the reality. So You are sure, that now You are coping with supporting Your family pretty good. I don't know how old Your kids are, but they will grow, and the demands will be higher - school, clothes, college, uni, etc. You will have to continue Your training, and financial demands for that will also be higher. Especially when You are doing ME and trying to keep IR current. So taking into consideration these 2 things, there is a high possibility, that at some point in time You will face a decision to make - whether it's something for Your kids, or Your training. If You never face that question, then You are a lucky man! But in case You do, You have to be prepared for that, because You will have to live with this decision for the rest of the life further on.

In any case. Despite all the facts, I do hope that You can make it, and that Your kids and wife will not suffer from that. But just be careful with Your decisions, and also remember the fact, that there may be multiple ways to pursue Your dream, so don't get discouraged, if the way it happens is not what You expected.

Also, have You considered the West Atlantic cadetship? Not sure if the program is still actual, and they defo not taking new cadets on board now, but hopefully it may become available later. You could get there with PPL on hands.

[andyc1988]

Hello everyone, I hope you've all had a good Christmas and haven't had to work too much.

I believe I am posting this in the correct forum due to my long term intentions, please let me know if not. In short I am seeking advice on how best to proceed from 0 flying hours to an airline career. Please forgive any incorrect terminology used.

A little about me...
I have had an interest in aviation for many years, my childhood desire to "become a pilot" recently became an achievable prospect when I discovered how cost effective PPL/PPL(m) licences and associated hour building can be. I have always had a keen interest in mathematics, physics and mechanics so I believe my aspiration to be a pilot is realistic. I currently work as an ambulance technician and the ambulance crew working model appears to bear a very close resemblance to that of a flight crew, which I believe may stand me in good stead. I'm 28 years old. I do not have the cash to obtain my fATPL/MPL and type rating.

The purpose of this post...
I'm seeking advice from any willing members on how to start flying, I invite your feedback and criticism of my plan as I would hate to take the wrong path.

I am a risk averse person so jumping straight onto a c£100k flying programme either sponsored or self-funded is not for me. My current intent:
1) Obtain my PPL and buy/hire/syndicate a plane.
2) Log 'a few hundred' flying hours to ensure that piloting is not a novelty that I will tire of, and to confirm whether it is something that I have some aptitude for.
3) Apply for my class 1 medical (at present I see no reason to fail this).
4) Either obtain my CPL and fly professionally for a few hundred/thousand hours or apply for the highly competitive cadet pilot schemes by Virgin/BA, etc...
5) If CPL route, keep applying for cadet pilot schemes until successful or until I can afford to fund my own training.

At stage 1 I am keen to obtain my PPL(m), my research indicates it would cost £3-5k to obtain the licence then a 3-axis microlight could be purchased for c£5k. I feel that if I did not progress onto commercial flying I would likely continue flying for leisure, and a 3-axis microlight appears considerably cheaper to fly than a category A plane. I would also be able to own rather than syndicate a microlight vs a Cessna/Piper, etc...

Stage 4 is something I am uncertain of, a CPL appears to be achievable for £10-15k but is it enough to start experiencing true commercial flying and earning enough money to be able to afford an fATPL/MPL?

I'm aware of other qualifications that might be added on as/when affordable or relevant such as instrument rating, multi-engine, multi-pilot, etc...but I'm not sure where they play their part between a PPL and a sponsored/self-funded fATPL/MPL.

Any advice, suggestions, opinions, constructive criticism is welcomed.

Thank you.