Gulfstream Rear Galley Option - Thoughts/Experience?

[Tray Surfer]

Hello...!

As part of my exploration into the industry, looking at types, cabins and the likes, in preparation for any work possibilities that may arise, one area of interest has been galleys and equipment onboard varying types.

I have noted that it appears to be only Gulfstream who offer a galley at the rear of the cabin. Which to me looks to be an interesting option.

Just wondering if anyone has experience of operating on a Gulfstream with the rear galley, and how you find it? Both in terms of flight and cabin crew? Do you find that communication between flight and cabin crew is more difficult with the two work areas being separated, especially with single cabin crew operations?

Probably seems an odd thing to wonder or think about... But I am curious.

Hope you are all well,

Regards,

TS
:)

[I.R.PIRATE]

We are a single FA setup, and cant say we have hassles whatsoever with communication. I would actually find it odd to move back to a front galley setup.

A minor point if operating in the Mid East for example would be during Ramadan, it means the cockpit crew meals need to come from the back, with many passengers finding this unacceptable, in which case we generally survive on sandwiches and cold meals stored up front.

Also, if the pax are sleeping, its sometimes necessary to hold out on crew meals in order not to wake the them.

Those would be the only two negatives we experience with an aft galley. I like that its out of the 'cockpit', and feel that it opens up the vestibule somewhat. Real or imagined....:ok:

[mutt]

For us the galley is in the front, we probably carry the largest crew complement of any Gulfstream operator, so it makes sense to have them all located at the front, that way the passengers can shut off the aft cabin and have total privacy with access to toilet, shower etc. It also means that garbage can be removed from the aircraft without destroying the carpet.

Mutt

[galaxy flyer]

Speaking from the competition's view, GLF has turned the design characteristics of the "legacy" fuselage into a marketing angle with the aft galley. The fuse has a large section aft of the cabin without windows and the engine location within the rotor burst zone makes an aft galley attractive, if a dark "cave". It also locates the heaviest item of cabin furnishing aft, avoiding a forward CofG's decrement to cruise drag, hence range.

The GLF's section with the highest decibel count is also aft, the aft galley keeps the passengers forward, in a quieter zone. The Global's quietest zone is the aft area making it an ideal spot for sleeping. It's four or five decibels quieter than the GLF due area ruling the tail and the further aft engine mounting.

F/As seem to like one or the other, depending on experience. The inter-cabin door frequently needs to closed with a forward galley, as food prep, cleanup is in view of the pax, including the inevitable messes. Boarding stores is easier with the forward arrangement, as is trash removal. Esp, when forgotten in the air stairs behind the curtain. :}

All that said, there are trade-offs inherent in any design.

GF

EDIT: You have a shower? How's that fit in the GLF?

[LGW Vulture]

Rear galley is the norm with Gulfstream. Usually rear galley interiors done in Savannah and fwd done in Long Beach.

[ksjc]

Another FA take on it:

I fly a forward galley GLEX but work with an ex-Gulfstream aft galley FA. She notes that pax often have to use the aft lav just before meal service which can be inconvenient and awkward while preparing the dinner.

[Flying Mechanic]

I prefer the rear galley, as the galley is not next to crew rest. So you get peaceful rest! Cabin crew like the rear galley as gives you access to the luggage bay, so handy for catering stores.

[mutt]

You have a shower? How's that fit in the GLF? Excellent for storing crew baggage, worthless in its original role due amount of water required.

Mutt

[Tray Surfer]

Thank you very much for the replies... I was surprised to see so many this morning! :ok:

Some very valid practicality points raised, of which most had crossed my mind. I did wonder about the Ramadan issue mentioned by I.R.Pirate having just operated 2 ME trips and having to have had conversations with passengers about why we are still serving food on the flight, despite it being Ramadan etc...

Also, ksjc, I did think about that too, with the layout of the galley in front of the toilet, would seem rather impractical if you are assembling plates and have all your catering set up in the galley and have people back and forth to the bathroom. Obviously it is not the same as having 235 down the back of a jumbo, but still, something to be mindful of.

TS
:)

[Savoia]

Unless a client specifically requested a rear galley I would never normally recommend this option.

Several disadvantages associated with rear galleys have been highlighted above and with which I concur.

A forward galley/cabin crew station permits:

* Increased rear cabin privacy
* Improved crew communications through advantageous cockpit-galley proximity
* Improved convenience for last-minute catering deliveries
* Strategic positioning for supporting pax embarkation and disembarkation

Additionally, always incorporate front and rear lavatories when ordering a new aircraft so that the crew don't need to traipse through the cabin to relieve themselves. :ok:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Prefer forward galley:

a) did one Atlantic trip when we had rear galley on G550. unable for CC to get to galley due to sleeping pax.
b) get forward toilet certainly.
c) the crew rest area is a joke regardless.

Glf

[Tray Surfer]

Just to be clear here... I am not buying an aircraft... :(

I am just looking at it in terms of working on one... :8

Savoia, all very good points indeed, and, despite having never worked on G anything, I would agree.

Gulfstreamaviator, again, nail hit squarely on head. Advantages of forward galley complex versus rear seem to be all too obvious. It does make one wonder why Gulfstream offer it as an option.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

It does make one wonder why Gulfstream offer it as an option.

I wonder, could it be anything to do with:

GLF has turned the design characteristics of the "legacy" fuselage into a marketing angle with the aft galley. The fuse has a large section aft of the cabin without windows and the engine location within the rotor burst zone makes an aft galley attractive, if a dark "cave". It also locates the heaviest item of cabin furnishing aft, avoiding a forward CofG's decrement to cruise drag, hence range.

The GLF's section with the highest decibel count is also aft, the aft galley keeps the passengers forward, in a quieter zone.

[Dak Man]

I wonder what the G7 will have.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

I wonder what the G7 will have.

It would be interesting to see if the wingspan constantly increases - maybe one day (G8) we will see a 50m Gulfstream wingspan! :eek: :p

[noneya]

There are reasons to have an aft galley on a Gulfstream, more so on the G4/450, than the 5/550/650

1. Weight and Ballance with aft galley is far better on the 4/450. Not so much a factor on the 5/550/650

2. The cabin is quiter with the aft galley due to its placement between the motors

3. You don't lose a window with an aft galley ( not a factor in the 650)

4. And you don't have to pull the galley out during inspection time to inspect the window that is covered by the forward galley.

Both configurations have their benefits!

[FrankR]

Gulfstream offers this option because customers request it.

My opinion is that the aft galley is a better choice. One reason not already mentioned is because of crew rest certification. Some (not all) FAA POI's require an aft galley for certification of the crew rest area, feeling that the noise and smell from the galley prevents adequate rest.

I believe all 550's have a forward lav, I've not seen one without, but there are two types of lavs, one where the crew rest should be, and another a "pocket lav" where you must open two doors.

For you Bombardier fan boys, I watched a 605 get grounded last month and require a new $30,000 ground spoiler control card due to the CA spilling coffee in the galley, and it dripped down into the avionics bay. Ooooops! I'll stick with my "legacy" 550 that dispatches always and can make it from Hong Kong to London without refueling!

FR

[Tray Surfer]

Interesting points... Thanks.

We have had issues over time with galley spills effecting avionics bays, especially on the 767 aircraft.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I still maintain that the aft galley is a big mistake.

Passengers must transit galley to get to toilet.

Is this desirable.

As mentioned before forward galley enable crew to have hot food, on a 15 hour flight...... at the mercy of sleeping passengers.

If aft divan converted to bed, then CC is stuck in Galley, (even with heated floor ) and FD might have use of the Mini Galley up front, ie Mapco, chiller draw, and the pocket toilet.

As an aside, always specify the " optional" knee hold for the toilets. if over 5ft 10, they are essential for the gentlemen.

Re the Crew rest area approval, I would agree that the aft galley is better, but does not solve the flight deck noise / chatter.


Glf

[Mach Tuck]

It does make one wonder why Gulfstream offer it as an option.

When the GV was first approved by the JAA they severely restricted the forward c of g limit such that with a forward galley it was possible that the empty aircraft already exceeded the limit.

[Tray Surfer]

Interesting... Thank you for that Mach Tuck :ok:

[Victorian Dad]

Dear Gents If I could possibly add a few things etc to this conversation. One Thing is Key to this is which particular Gulfstream are you referring too etc?

The GIV and G450 mainly are offered with AFT Galleys, Forward galleys are not the the normal and if its a GIV a lot of the radio rack will take up essential space, however haven said that I have seen some great G450 with a partial galley in the front and one in the back.

GV-G550 as its a long range aircraft depends on your client etc.

Charter arrangement
(Forward Galley has great advantages in the fact that the Crew can give privacy to the clients) and if there is a Fwd Lav and crew rest or work station this is a fantastic option. I would advise though to not have a full sink vanity unity takes up too much room.

If its a Private client its basically up to them what they prefer but a forward galley does work well.

NJE and NJA opted for AFT galleys on their GV-G550 fleet and I think they found it often difficult on long range flights as the FA was constantly in the Cabin. The other thing is the noise created when food is being prepared.

It would be interesting to see on their new globals what they opted for

[galaxy flyer]

We have had issues over time with galley spills effecting avionics bays, especially on the 767 aircraft.

Couldn't happen, only happens on Bombardier planes. :p. And, only Bombardier planes go tech.

NetJets took the only layout offered--forward. But they did extend it, 5 inches, I believe.

GF

[Tray Surfer]

galaxy flyer... Not a Bombardier fan then? ;)

And, as for an extra 5 inches... Sometimes can make all the difference... :D

[galaxy flyer]

No, I am a Bombardier fan, it's FrankR that isn't.

GF

[Tray Surfer]

Well, that makes two of us galaxy flyer... :ok:

[FrankR]

The best airplane is always the one you're being paid to fly! Everything else is rather inconsequential...

FR

:O

[Photoburst]

The fuse has a large section aft of the cabin without windows and the engine location within the rotor burst zone makes an aft galley attractive, if a dark "cave".

This is not the only part of the 550's cabin which can be a dark cave:

http://www.jetcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/G550-5004_int-ACA04-462x306.jpg

http://www.jetcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/G550-5004_int-FLA01-397x600.jpg

http://www.jetcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/G550-5004_int-GAL02-462x306.jpg

PB :ok:

[Tony Mabelis]

On all Gulfstreams, G2 through 550 the outflow valve is in the front, and all smells from nice to nasty pass through the cabin from the rear galley and toilet, on the way out.
The DU fans pull the air into cockpit.....fart in the galley and within 30 seconds there are screams of disaproval from the flight deck.......ask me how I know this.:O
Tony

I hope the galley and toilet in the pictures above look better in real life!!

[Anthony Supplebottom]

An interesting consideration Tony Mabelis!

Do you suppose cabin attendants have a "fart contingency plan" - such as dousing themselves with copious amounts of perfume and then walking through the cabin in an effort to control any unwelcome odours they may unintentionally have permitted to escape, especially say, after overnighting in Bombay?

[Tony Mabelis]

Sounds like a good plan to me!!
Nobody seems to have appreciated the obvious on this thread, seems to show a certain lack of practical Gulfstream operation to me! Too much waffle and not enough farting.
Tony

[SussexBroker]

perhaps a moot point, but as a broker, we are wary of aircraft on the charter market with a rear galley. The inflight service can disturb the passenger as well as that area of the cabin usually being used for sleeping. It is a fact that we have had clients whom have flown on rear galley Gulfstreams and have made negative comments.

SB

[Tray Surfer]

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate it.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

perhaps a moot point, but as a broker, we are wary of aircraft on the charter market with a rear galley. The inflight service can disturb the passenger as well as that area of the cabin usually being used for sleeping. It is a fact that we have had clients whom have flown on rear galley Gulfstreams and have made negative comments.
SB

I understand your point but from what I have read on this thread rear galleys are standard fit on the LRG's (long range Gulfstreams) the 500, 550 and 650. Is this so?

[Tray Surfer]

From researching and looking at the Gulfstream website, it is offered as an option, not as a standard.

[noneya]

There is no standard option. When you buy the plane you have 6 configurations to choose from. 3 are aft galleys and 3 are forward galleys.

J

[vjs]

Normally, a rear galley without a rear service door, either on Biz Jets or Airlines is just a pain in the ass.
All catering needs to go thru the cabin to reach the rear galley, on some Biz Jets you may bypass that and route everything to the usual small(Bizjets, except CL850) cargo compartment.
Servicing the rear galley - much harder then a fwd one

Pax comfort : Same. Think being in your pax shoes, would you really like someone all the time in the cabin with you. Privacy is much easier to obtain if the galley is up front.

Crew comfort: True, as a flight deck member I would not mind if the FA is (some of them :E) most of the flight at the other end of the aircraft trapped. Maybe the only plus point for me opting for a rear galley.

Crew comfort V.2: As mentioned already, it might get tricky to bring food and drinks fwd during a night long rangeflight with sleeping pax.

Not to mention the stains you create to get all the waste out using a beautiful light coloured cabin :).

I think rear galleys are a nice thing to ADD on superheavy Biz Jets(BBJ+), below that it's just a wrong turn taken from the producer.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

There is an option for an extractor fan in the aft lav.

BUT not certain of the routing, think it goes out via the "vac" extraction system.

I place a towel at the base of the lav door, and encourage the aroma to travel the short route.

Remember the knee holes for the stand up users.

glf

[con-pilot]

I am on the side of the forward galley as well. When we (well actually the owner) were deciding between the G-IV-SP and Falcon 900EX we took long demonstration flights in both; KPWA-EGGW-KASE* and KASE-TNCM-KHOU.

After these and other demo flights the boss decided that having a forward galley was going to be the way either aircraft would ordered. The basic reason was, as many here have posted, he did not like either the FA or the pilots waking through the cabin when he was trying to sleep. When he was not sleeping, during daylight flights he had no issue with the crew going back to galley.

He finally settled on the 900EX, primarily due to the better performance out of Aspen, than the G-IV-SP.


* A technical stop was require in both aircraft in KBGR for customs and fuel, on the EGGW-KASE segement.

[exitfirstright]

Never has so much waffle been written by so many.....

Fact is Gulfstream have to place the galley at the back to save the loss of two windows in the cabin (hidden by the galley and place the pax further from the noise (engines). (It is dark - your pics are clever photography)

The Crew are self-contained in the forward galley with the toilet all in one section.

As for smells I think the G550 crew toilet is likely to be more smelly after a Bombay curry. No rest there.... come on wake up smell the coffee.

AND the person who is important is the owner - not the F/A wanting to store food in cabin which cant be open at 450FL or above either.

Resale is also important - forward galleys are sort after, aft are not.

Remember the G550 is still a re-engine G1 which had propellers I recall. Check the Type Certificate if you want.

[Simon Cavelle]

Really interesting to hear all the comments regarding the position of forward or aft galley and the benefits and downsides to each. Please do post any other issues you have either operational, servicing or comments from passengers. The more we learn from your experiences the better designs will be in the future.

Many thanks

S

[Tray Surfer]

Well exitfirstright... Thank you so much for your bullet-point shake down of the thread.

Although, having read back through the thread, I am not sure where:

AND the person who is important is the owner - not the F/A wanting to store food in cabin which cant be open at 450FL or above either.

:confused:

[I.R.PIRATE]

Troll.

Don't feed him from either galley.

Guess he never got his Gulfbob shirt....

[tuna hp]

Cool thread. I have also wondered why Gulfstream has continued to market the rear galley even though it seemed to be made irrelevant with the G550 and G650.

G550 added a 7th row of windows to the original G-V design, making it irrelevant (from a window perspective) as to whether you put the galley in the front or back.

There is also the obvious weight balance question but I've never read anything to suggest that forward galley G550s have less range than the rear galley variants. While more weight at the front is generally considered detrimental, if the plane was designed from the outset to accommodate a forward galley there's no reason to assume that it would automatically perform better by moving the galley to the rear. Engineers can design the plane to perform any way they like.

From a passenger perspective, the forward galley is obviously strongly preferred. Keep the crew all in the front so that the passenger cabin has more privacy overall and the last seating section in particular, which is often walled or curtained off and serves as the owner's cabin, has direct private access to the rear lav and baggage.

Contrary to what another poster speculated, I can actually see the rear galley option as being possibly more attractive to charter or fractional operators specifically because there is less privacy. The rear galley gulfstreams always have completely open cabins while the front galley models often have cabin partitions. I think this is because the rear galley charter and fractional operators want an excuse to be walking through the cabin and observing the passengers. Less privacy = less opportunity for passengers to do anything too dirty.

But overall, I think that the reason that they still offer the rear galleys is because of nostalgia for the G-II, G-III, G-IV, G-V era, when they actually had valid performance reasons to place the cabin in the back. (1) moves the center of gravity rearward (2) removes the necessity to install windows in the weaker tapering section at the rear of the fuselage (3) putting the galley in the loudest part of the plane make the experience quieter for passengers.

If you ever browse controller.com you may notice that there seems to be a ongoing trend of ever greater proportions of Gulfstreams being fitted with the front galley. Almost no G550s have the rear galley and even with the G450 and G-V, the later models from more recent years have often taken the front galley even though it costs them a cabin window.

[Tray Surfer]

Thanks for the reply tuna hp... Most interesting.

Out of curiosity, but still related to Gulfstream aircraft, is the 3rd jump seat in the flight deck or is it a fold out type from behind something/somewhere?

I know, a beginners question... Sorry... :ugh:

[Tray Surfer]

Never mind! I found a diagram of a GS and have seen where the 3rd jump seat is... I know interior fits can vary, but would imagine they are all similar in regard to the pull out jump seat from behind the FO...

Ta muchly. :)