More U2 info declassified - Operation Fishhawk

[tartare]

Click here (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB434/) for interesting CIA docs just released.
Originally SECRET NOFORN - but now in the white world.
Includes info on RAF participation in the U2 programme for those of you in the old country, and for Mil forum ppruners south of the equator, some interesting stuff about carrier ops to spy on French testing at Mururoa - and the mods made under Project Whaletail to allow the Dragon Lady to perform arrested landings.

[Pontius Navigator]

the new Soviet Bison bomber in the spring of 1954 had been followed
by reported sightings of more than 30 of these bombers in the spring
and summer of 1955 (in reality these were sightings of the same
group of l 0 aircraft that circled around out of sight and made several
passes during a Soviet air show).

We were told by a former air attaché in 1968 that the precise number of Bison was known as they were manufactured at an airfield in Moscow and flown out. They could be seen from the embassy (he said) and as the aircraft could not land back it was a simple matter to count them.

[VIProds]

Many thanks for the newly released CIA document, tartare. The old document, apart from being heavily censored, had pages 154 to 156 missing. So no mention of British involvement.

It is interesting to see that Operation Robin is mentioned several times, where the RAF flew a modified Canberra on a photo reconnaissance mission to Kapustin Yar.

I wasn't aware that when the RAF pilots flew missions in the U-2. That the title of the aircraft would be transferred on paper & full responsibility for that mission was with the British Government.

I was also not aware that during the two years that the RAF pilots were at Detachment B, that the RAF flew 27 U-2 missions to the Middle East.

[Courtney Mil]

A very interesting part there about the A-12. Thanks for posting.

[Davef68]

Many thanks for the newly released CIA document, tartare. The old document, apart from being heavily censored, had pages 154 to 156 missing. So no mention of British involvement.

It's hard to beleive it's almost 20 years since Paul Lashmar's TV programmes and subsequent books on the overflights were made, but IIRC the CIA chap said that the UK Govt refused to allow declassification of that. Presumably, someone has changed their mind.

I wasn't aware that when the RAF pilots flew missions in the U-2. That the title of the aircraft would be transferred on paper & full responsibility for that mission was with the British Government.
.

No, but I did hear a rumour that a photo exists of at least one aircraft in RAF markings.

[Heathrow Harry]

excellent

but who were the Canberra crew that proved the concept by overflying Kasputin Yar in 1953?

"Sometime during the first half of 1953. the RAF employed a
high-altitude Canberra on a daring overflight of the Soviet Union to
photograph the missile test range at Kapustin Yar. Because of advanced
warning from either radar or agents inside British intelligence,
the overflight did not catch the Soviet Union by surprise.
Soviet fighters damaged and nearly shot down the Canberra!"
Rumors about this flight reached Washington during the summer of
1953, but official confirmation by the United Kingdom did not come
until February 1954."

[SASless]

The Book I want to read is an indepth analysis of what each side knew about the other from the work of spies and other sources.

Yet...we have to remember just how close we came to real nuclear war in 1983....but did not due to the work of the KGB and GRU....despite the Soviet Nuclear Arsenal being cocked and locked....waiting for the Release Order from Andropov.

The Walker Spy case combined with the German fellow at Nato....(Raub was it ?) really put the USA in a very real risk of losing whatever war we would have fought with the Soviets.

[Heathrow Harry]

They spied, we spied, everyone spied

Historically there is very little evidence that spying makes much of a difference

Like ENIGMA it's no use knowing what the other guy is up to if you don't have the resources to do something about it

Strategically probably Richard Sorge is the only one who made a real difference in WW2

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, your answer may be revealed in the parallel history project.

It would indeed be fascinating to see whether the NATO conception of a Soviet attack was the same as the Soviet plan and vica verca.

At one time we had a large number (in UK terms) of aircraft planning to exploit a perceived gap between two SAM 2 sites. As the route plans were being prepared by crews I saw an amendment to the SAM sites that placed two SAM 3 sites in the gap. The inbound tracks were planned to pass within a mile of each site.

A spy or a technical appraisal by the Soviets?

[SLF-Flyer]

I got a copy of Air Pictorial August 1997 on Ebay for about £1.50. It gives a good insight into the RAF using four North American RB-45C's over the USSR.
The flight crew were RAF, but the ground crew were from the USA.

Other information can be found on the Internet, including the flight path flown.

[Old Ned]

There were several and there was an excellent presentation during my Staff College course some years ago. A certain 43 Sqn boss was one of them. Google RAF U2 Pilots and a useful list appears from a PPrune entry dated 4 Nov 07. "You Saw in on Prune First" Again.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Here's a comprehensive list in the order they took a 1st flight - 3 x RAF names I recognize from the Phantom era and another who was later a Tornado GR1 OC Ops Wg:

U-2 PILOTS BY DATE (http://www.u2sr71patches.co.uk/flightnamesu2.htm)

[VIProds]

I started a thread several years ago entitled: Russian over flights by RAF crews during the "Cold War" with the help of Tartanterror, Heimdall & several others, covering the North American RB-45's flown by RAF crews in Operation Ju Jitsu. The modified Canberra that flew to Kapustin Yar in Operation Robin & the 15 RAF pilots that converted to & flew missions for the CIA in the Lockheed U-2.

If you have got a few days spare, there was a lot of information that came out.

[Wander00]

My "A" Sqn Cadet Wing squadron commander at Cranwell had been one of the RB47 pilots

[adr]

For the sake of those with limited time or bandwidth, and a pertinent interest: the newly declassified section on British participation starts on p153 of the printed volume, which appears as p61 of this single-chapter PDF (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB434/docs/U2%20-%20Chapter%203.pdf#page=61) .

[Davef68]

excellent

but who were the Canberra crew that proved the concept by overflying Kasputin Yar in 1953?

"Sometime during the first half of 1953. the RAF employed a
high-altitude Canberra on a daring overflight of the Soviet Union to
photograph the missile test range at Kapustin Yar. Because of advanced
warning from either radar or agents inside British intelligence,
the overflight did not catch the Soviet Union by surprise.
Soviet fighters damaged and nearly shot down the Canberra!"
Rumors about this flight reached Washington during the summer of
1953, but official confirmation by the United Kingdom did not come
until February 1954."


Chris Pocock implies in his side note that was a myth, although the later 1957 flight was real.

[Heathrow Harry]

Thanks - but we were telling porkies to the CIA? Surely not..................

[Heathrow Harry]

Vprods thread is

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/376693-russian-overflights-raf-crews-during-cold-war-5.html

[TBM-Legend]

So what were the U-2's really doing in Australia in the '60's????

[VIProds]

Davef68, Heathrow Harry. Gentleman, what a load if pocock (pardon my French). The Americans knew about the mission (Operation Robin) right from the very start. US & UK Mil Int. found out from the returning WWII German rocket scientists & technicians who had been on a five year contract with the Russians to develop their rocket programme at a place called Kapustin Yar.

The Us were desperate to find out what range of missiles they were developing (short, intermediate or long range), but didn't have an aircraft that could fly high enough & fast enough to carry out a photographic mission. Also, President Eisenhower would not allow US overflights of the USSR at that time.

That is when the CIA, through the "Wright Air Development Command" contacted English Electric & persuaded them to fit more powerful engines in the Canberra. English Electric fitted six Rolls Royce Avon-109 engines that had been developed for the Lightening in three Canberra's, which brought their maximum operating ceiling to 65,000ft.

The Americans arranged for one of the Canberra's (WH726) to be fitted with the forerunner of the U-2 100inch oblique camera to be on loan & was fitted at Hascom Field in the US. The Americans also arranged for Canberra WH726 to fly from the USAF Base at Giebelstadt right on the East German Border.

After WH726 had photographed the missile development & testing sites at Kapustin Yar, it flew to Iran (yes, we were still friends then) for the crew to rest & aircraft to be refuelled. It then flew back to Giebelstadt where the film was removed & flown straight to the US for developing & analysis. The following day, the aerial photographs were on the President's desk.

Yes, the Americans knew about it. They actually orchestrated it, the RAF only took the snaps! The flight took place on 27/28th August 1953. Where Chris Pocock get's confused is that the Records Office have removed three Operation Robin files & the only files remaining were after the oblique camera was returned & replaced with a LOROP camera in the bomb bay & operation Robin missions continued.

He was also unaware that WH726 had the new, more powerful engines & assumed that it flew the mission a 47,000ft. Lieutenant Mikhail Shulga, a MIG15 pilot was vectored at dawn to Kapustan Yar. His maximum ceiling was 47,000ft & could see the Canberra three miles above him.