Taking the leap?

[Buggington]

Hello,

I'm in a bit of a tricky situation. I can't decide whether to take the leap and do my pilot training.

I'm now eighteen; I've wanted to be a pilot since I was four and it's just stuck. It's all I can see myself doing as a career. I have considered (and applied, and promptly failed selection for) NATS air traffic control as a career. I am aware of the risks of becoming a pilot - I have done my research and know about the salaries, T's & C's and situation of the job market.

I plan to do my training at CTC - I have done the whole Modular vs. Integrated thing to death, spoken to some airlines about which they prefer and have decided on an integrated course. I've been to see about five different flight schools, and CTC was the stand out one for me. I know I could save a chunk of money by going elsewhere, but they didn't have the ties to the industry and I just wouldn't feel as happy spending the money there. While I'm on the subject of money, it wouldn't be done via a BBVA loan - it would be funded through a far more flexible route. Also, thanks to the Pilots' Apprenticeship Scheme, £42k can be put on the student finance system, which means until I earn above £21k a year I don't have to pay anything back.

I'm in the process of getting my Class 1 medical, and plan to try selection soon, after having prepared with some online tests. At least if I fail selection it will solve the dilemma once and for all!

I'm also looking into Higher Design/Engineering Apprenticeships in the Aerospace industry but really can't see myself going for any of these, despite the obvious financial benefits.

With all that in mind (assuming I get the medical and pass selection) something is still stopping me from saying "Yes - I'm signing up".

The issue is that I don't know what it is - if you were to ask me to sign on the dotted line for my training tomorrow, I wouldn't do it.

Hopefully I've explained this clearly, but the bottom line is that I would appreciate any sort of help making this decision, be it some pertinent (possibly even abrupt?) questions, some personal experience - anything! (assuming it isn't modular vs integrated)

[smartguy]

Hello Buggington,

I think that with your age you should go for it! this is the time in your life when you have no family worries and no financial debt (yet!). And with your choice to go with ctc wings you will have a great advantage when getting airline placement. If you are a ctc wings cadet, you will get to go out to New Zealand and get a gap year at the same time! You have obviously done your research so I can't think of any reason for you not to do it.

I am intrigued to know, How does this 42k student finance thing work?

[Buggington]

Smart guy - While I remember, did you get my PM?

The student loan bit is new. It's through the Pilot's Higher Apprenticeship scheme, which aimed to bring more talented people into the industry (rather than those who had £100k burning a hole in their pocket).

The first course starts in September with CTC (I don't know if ay of the other training companies are doing anything with it yet) and the course is exactly the same. All that's happened is that someone's been through the CTC course and said that it meets the requirements for a degree, so when you do a CTC course you can opt into the degree.

Because there's now a degree involved, it's classed as education and so you're eligible for the student funding (including maintenance grants etc) for three years (two for the main CTC course and one for the type rating).

So that's basically the degree thing - £42k on student finance (best loan you'll ever have - suck on that BBVA :\), getting a degree and all without doing anything extra.

I notice there's very little on this forum about it - maybe somebody needs to make a sticky about it to raise awareness. When the Higher Apprenticeship people were at CTC the room was nearly empty, even though the scheme could help you massively.

[future-pilot]

I heard that you can just put £ 9k a year on the student finance which in two years is £ 18k not £ 42k. Where did you get your information?
I hope it's like you said.

[KermitRulesOK]

future-pilot,

I believe it's the normal £9k tuition plus the maintenance loan (which is up to £5k depending on personal circumstances and family earnings). Which would come out at around £42k for the whole lot. Still leaves a big gap up to the current CTC wings cost of £69k and of course all the living allowances and potentially a TR depending on how it will work.

[Buggington]

Kermit's right, it hasn't been mentioned that it's actually three years; two years in CTC doing the main course, and then an extra year for the type rating. 3 years at £9k a year is £27k.

As Kermit says the extra £15k could come from maintenance loans, which until now I had forgotten were income dependant.

This leaves between £27-42k to find, not including the type rating. A lot more manageable than a flat £69k.

[Artie Fufkin]

Buggington,

You appear to have thought things through very carefully, researched thoroughly, and are capable of presenting your thoughts well. These are skills that will shine through during an airline selection process.

I completely understand your hesitance to sign up - I'm not sure what I would do in the current circumstances. There is some age old advice that I was given ten years ago when I was where you are now. That is that pilot training, however you do it, is a risk. Even chaps who sign up via the military can fail a check ride and end up as an RAF officer doing "other duties". Those on tagged schemes can find their airline going bust or revising their recruitment needs mid way through the course. It's a minefield.

The advice I received was to fully understand the risks you face, make a plan that mitigates the worst of the risk and have a backup, should the worst occur. There is no risk free method. Pilots are required on a day to day basis to assess and manage risk.

I was unaware of the new rules about apprenticeships, but it does sound like a huge step forward. I can only encourage you to pursue your ambition in a considered manner. It's an amazing job and I know I wouldn't be truly happy doing anything else.

Best of luck :ok:

[Buggington]

Artie - thanks for that. I'm capable of presenting my thoughts over the internet where I can reorder my words, but in person it all falls apart :rolleyes: :)

I need to come up with a new backup. The original backup was Air Traffic Control, but this was before I knew that out of the 3000 that applied per quarter, 20 actually got the job! That's quite a failure rate, and I was one of the 2980 unlucky ones.

I think an Aerospace Engineering Apprenticeship might be a backup at the moment, but it's not something I'm too keen on yet. I think I might need to visit some of the companies and see what I think of them. Anyway, that's not pilot related.

[Stocious]

What extra work is required for the degree aspect? I'm intrigued as to what the other 18 months of this three year thing are filled with.

[smartguy]

You don't have to do any extra work to obtain the degree. You never have to go the university you just do the 18 months integrated training course like everyone else has done but you get a degree at the end of it. You get a BCs with honours in professional aviation and pilot practice and all the other licenses that you would normally get. The good thing about this is it then gives you access to the government student loans of upto 42k, of course this is only part of the 100k it will cost you to go to ctc!

[sm85]

Hi,

If you don't mind, could someone please either post or PM me details of where i can read more about this Pilot Apprenticeship Scheme? Entry criteria, age etc

[Stocious]

You don't have to do any extra work to obtain the degree. You never have to go the university you just do the 18 months integrated training course like everyone else has done but you get a degree at the end of it. You get a BCs with honours in professional aviation and pilot practice and all the other licenses that you would normally get.

An honours degree for getting a pilots licence eh? Whatever next? Just goes to show how cheapened an honours degree has become.

[Buggington]

Smartguy's hit the nail on the head.

Steve - I think that's the wrong way to view it. As I understand it, a lot of subjects are covered.

Regardless, google aviation skills partnership. You should be able to find some info on there, although there isn't much. Your best bet is to see them at the next CTC open day.

[Stocious]

Lots of subjects are covered I'm sure - I have the licence to show for it. It does not however, in my opinion, equate in any way to the obtaining of an honours degree.

In terms of financing it though, it is a massive step in the right direction.

[redsnail]

One thing to consider - whilst you say airlines prefer integrated over modular, did those airlines mention that they prefer their own "cadets" that they have tagged for their recruitment needs?

There is a world of difference between modular v integrated v "tagged" students WRT employment after finishing.

[smartguy]

Airlines such as easyjet take on 200+ pilots a year and they only have 20 or so cadets on each of their tagged schemes. Therefore they are going to need more pilots to fill the 200+ spaces in their cockpits...where are they going to get them? Experienced pilots and Untagged integrated student! Not modular students! They will take the untagged integrated student from places like the ctc hold pool so the pilots can be put on ctc flexicrew contracts etc...

[Buggington]

Snail: I wouldn't know the answer to that. When I check there weren't as many of these tagged schemes around, but as you say there would clearly be a massive difference.

Smartguy: When I visited CTC last week I was told that their hold pool had been taken from 150 cadets down to around 30 cadets. I presume the vast majority of these went to EasyJet. Not sure what can be gleaned from this fact, but I thought it was worth putting out there.

[pilotchute]

Buddington,

So CTC told you that the hold pool is nearly empty so you should start training straight away while the wait is short?

Guys, OAA and CTC and whoever else are only interested in getting bums on seats any way possible. They are there to make money. Not get you a job.

You should ask how many students who graduated in the last 12 months have "meaningful" employment. OAA seem to think that the Lion Air pay to fly scheme is a job.

Smartguy. Do you work for CTC? Easyjet hire people from all over Europe. They may only take 50 odd from the UK meaning non tagged employment may only be 30 people for the whole country! As about 1000 people obtain a CPL every year in the UK that makes the odds of you being picked up by Easy pretty slim. Also, as Ryan aren't recruiting right now what do you suggest people do if Easy don't pick them up?

[Buggington]

Calm down pilotchute. The person who told me the hold pool had shrunk was actually a cadet who was due to finish training in a couple of months. Seeing as the training takes at least 18 months, it would be stupid to start training based solely on this advice because the hold pool would have changed by the time I finished my training.

It doesn't take much to work out that CTC and OAA are profit making organisations - I for one have always ignored their "statistics". Asking about meaningful employment would probably be a waste of time - they're never going to turn round and say "only 32% of our ex cadets are earning above £16k a year", are they?

[pilotchute]

Bug,

Borrowing money for flight training at this point in time is madness. Holding onto the belief that Easy is still taking guys on and basing your decision on the hiring practices of one airline wouldn't be a good idea. Easy can turn off the tap anytime they like. Ryan just did it.

On another thread someone said that out of his ATPL ground course in 2012, 6 out of around 60 people are actually flying and being paid for it right now.

Plenty of OAA and CTC integrated guys out there looking for work. A lot have already given up. You have to remember that plenty of people who graduated in 2008,09,10,11 and 12 are all out there looking for jobs too.

I just lifted this off the CAE Website so have amended my post to include it.

The overall worldwide fleet of aircraft will almost double; airline traffic almost triple by 2028.

29,000 new airplanes will be delivered worldwide by 2028.

Industry experts predict the overall global pilot demand for the next 20 years is about 20,000 pilots per year.

The problem with these three statements is virtually none of this will be happening in Europe. 90% of new aircraft orders are going to either the Middle or Far East. Almost all the 20,000 pilots required per year will be going to the Middle and Far East. Guess where all the traffic increases will be?

My last beef is that in the "Airlines we work with" section. Ryanair has been listed twice and apparently CAE work with not only Susi Air but Lion Air also!! What a load of rubbish. They cant even spell the names of some Airlines properly. I know they aren't going to tell you that only 30% of the grads are working but listing half truths and very questionable info on your website has to give you an indication as to what sort of business they are. All of this is to convince you that now is best time to get you to part with your money. Clearly it isn't

[smartguy]

Pilotchute- no matter what route you take it will never be easy to get 'meaningful employment', we know that! However if I am at lion air on a pay to fly scheme or I am on a flexicrew contract at easy I will be very happy because I am building experience on big jets. It's a lot better than having no work at all!

Are you saying to go modular? A modular student would do very well just to find a pay to fly scheme at lion air!

There is no flight school in the world that doesn't want to 'make profit'

[Buggington]

Chute:

I would agree its not the best time. I spoke to BALPA about this, and two very experienced captains said to stay out of the industry for the time being. Unfortunately for me it's sort of now (in the next year or so) or never. I couldn't find the money to do this with the financial pressures of house, car etc.

I would be tempted to say that those who graduated nearly three years ago ('08-'10) may have given up on the search. I have nothing to base this on, other than what I would probably do if I were in their situation - finding employment in other industries and climbing the ladder there perhaps. Just speculation.

I can agree with the figures you found on another thread - someone I knew said that out of his OAA class (or whatever it's called) of about 25, two had a job a year later.

WRT the figures from the CAE website, I understand that the boom in airline traffic is in the east. I'm not sure how they think it's going to affect the recruitment here; it might draw the experienced pilots to the east, leaving space for less experienced pilots to move up here or they might start recruiting flying school graduates (which they generally don't, with the exception of some MPL schemes).

Oxford and CTC are always going to be out to trick you. How could you run a company that turns over millions of pounds if your website read "don't bother. Try in five years time"? You would have to be very naïve to believe every word anyone says when trying to sell something.

Smartguy:

Surely nobody could be happy with a P2F scheme at Lion? Imagine having mortgaged your parents house for £100,000 and then having to pay a company for the privilege of flying their passengers around? I might go as far as saying that it's worse than having no job.

Almost makes the Flexicrew contracts look like a good deal! :}

That being said, I have to agree with you on the flying school profit. If they didn't run at a profit, they couldn't do anything for long.

Pilot lad:

I know what you mean. I have a part time gardening business and I hate the fact that there's no guaranteed income.

[pilotchute]

Bug,

I'm telling you not to do flight training at all, Mod or Integrated. It just really isn't a good time.

I got my CPL in 2008. About a month after, the hiring boom that had been going full steam ahead for about 4 years came to a screeching halt almost overnight.The difference in my case compared to the majority was I didn't have any debt. I started a bit later than the average wannabe guy. I had a few years working up my sleeve and a bit of money in the bank.

The whole mod versus Integrated thing is a bit of a myth. If the airlines need people it doesn't matter to them what type or training you did. Planes don't fly themselves. When the market is tight they can put all sorts of stipulations on the hiring webpage. First time passes and other sorts of nonsense doesn't come up when they may have to park aircraft. Another myth is instructing is a dead route to the airlines. Well sorry guys but airlines aren't hiring anyone. Instructors included. When the market picks up instructors will again find jobs on jets/TP's.

In regards to P2F. I'm in SE Asia right now and I can tell you the Lion guys aren't having a good time. Well some maybe but most of them are scared stiff of still not having a job when they go. Qatar has taken a few but since the MPL started, no one has had a call. Scoot have picked up a few also. They then had to pay 35k for type rating on a 777. Believe me, the package they are on isn't very good.

Many people will get on here and tell you that line training is just part of the whole industry now. Well it isn't and don't make it like that. For every "my mate did line training and is now flying for XXX Airline" there are ten more people behind him who didn't get anything after line training finished. So now your 150k in debt with no job. I would rather be 90k in debt with no job than 150k!

Oh yeah it took nearly 3 years for me to land my first job. I could have got one 12 months earlier but I let my medical lapse! So I'm sure there may just be more people out there looking than you think.

[smartguy]

Of course ctc and oaa want to make profit but every other school in the world does aswell. And btw, with the new degree involved you don't have to take out 100k loan on your parents house anymore, you would only be looking to take out 50k. Up to 42k of the money will be student loan which means that you only pay it back when you have earned enough money.

Do you honestly believe that paying some tin pot airline in Indonesia thousands of pounds for the privilege of flying for them is better than having no work at all?

umm...yes!? If you were to ask that question to a newly qualified pilot that has spend 2 years looking for flying work, what would they say? They would say that they would definitly prefer flying with lion. That way they are gaining valuable experience flying 737/a320 with hundreds of hours building in their log books and at least some money coming in! I would definitely prefer flying with lion than having no work at all!

Also once you have completed say 3000 hours pay to fly you may then be put on a permenant contract and you would then also fit the requirements to apply for BA/Virgin etc..

[smartguy]

Planes don't fly themselves

Lol they basically do! Well according to airbus, pilotless aircraft aren't that far away...

[smartguy]

and where did you get the number 150k ??????!!

[pilotchute]

Smartguy,

How much is the OAA intergrated course now? I want the all in price that has the MCC and JOC and god know what else you have to do now. I also want the living costs for OAA for the duration of the course and spending money chucked in too. How much is it?

I will then tell you how much the Lion scheme really costs. Its a lot more than the 50k USD they advertise when you factor in some things they don't mention in the brochure. I'm pretty sure 150 wont be far off.

[smartguy]

Ok maybe the cost of it may be close to 130k at the most! As long as you go to either ctc, oaa or flying time aviation you would be eligible to the student loan of upto 42k. Which means that 130k will not be resting on your parents house.

[pilotchute]

I suppose 88k on your parents house is better than 130k but who's counting?

Some home truths about Lion. They started doing a 500 hours plus 1 year employment. Well if you call 2k USD a month employment. They pay you nothing until you get 500 hours on type.

The course costs 50k USD (when it was running) That's 32k pounds. Now the hotel you stay in for type rating (ratings mostly done in Germany or Netherlands) and all other expenses are paid by you. Flights, meals etc. That will get pretty expensive over 3-4 weeks. Turn up in Jakarta and your ready to go. Well no your not. You wait 4 months for a sim check and pray you pass it or it will be another couple of months before you get another crack at it and if you bomb on this one the money is forfeited. So you pass the check. Fast forward another 4 months and you have finally started line training.

Well wait again cause your IR needs renewing now. Off home you go to do the IR renewal and prof check cause its coming up on 12 months since you did your type rating. Lion don't pay for that so you go to the place you did your type rating to do your renewal. All paid for by you. This is repeated every 6 month. Mmm gets expensive now doesn't it? Who was paying your rent and buying your food for the first 18 months you were in Jakarta until you finally got 500 hours on type. That's right, you.

You can budget on spending about 1000 USD a month on rent, taxi's and food while you wait to get 500 on type. Jakarta is cheap but to say you would spend less than that wouldn't be a true representation. Some will spend much more, other maybe less.

This isn't the exception. A lot of P2F schemes are run like this.

See how getting to around 150k pounds isn't that hard after all?

[TeaTowel]

Also once you have completed say 3000 hours pay to fly you may then be put on a permenant contract and you would then also fit the requirements to apply for BA/Virgin etc..

And why exactly would they take someone with 3000hrs who expects a free type rating and a good salary when they could take some gob****e who offers to pay?

[TeaTowel]

If you were to ask that question to a newly qualified pilot that has spend 2 years looking for flying work, what would they say? They would say that they would definitely prefer flying with lion.

This describes me perfectly and I say not a hope in hell am I paying to fly.

Why pay2fly? To get experience to get a job? Experience means nothing if there's people willing to pay2fly! Understand?

Do you not have foresight?:ugh:

[smartguy]

No, what I mean is that you get experience from pay2fly so you can get a job at an airline where there is no pay to fly...like BA/Virgin. BA/Virgin don't take cadet pilots (except for BA FPP) so everyone who apply's for a job at BA/Virgin will be experienced pilots so there will be no 'gob****e' who will offer to pay.

Correct me but I believe BA/Virgin cover the cost of their type rating training anyway!

[smartguy]

And maybe I shouldn't have talk about lion air. I do not plan on pay2fly but what I'm saying is that it is better than having no work at all.

[smartguy]

you are either a moron, or a troll

It does get a bit boring when you call me that for the 20th time. Do yourself a favour and leave this forum, unless your going to give good advice!

[pilotchute]

Smartguy,

I had constructed a long and balanced response to your answer. I then decided you are either too arrogant or ignorant to understand it.

With an attitude and ideas like yours no one in their right mind would hire you.

I just noticed that you don't even have a licence. How do you think your opinion should be taken seriously if you haven't even been to flying school?

Do you go onto truck driving forums and shell out advice also?

[smartguy]

I would very much like to see this response and I am sure that I will be able to understand it. I will never plan on going pay2fly I just mentioned it to make a point.

All I'm saying is that with the government funding, you would not have to take at a loan of no more than 60k (the cost of a modular course) and have a degree to put on your CV all in the time of 18 months. There is no longer as big risks as there was before

[smartguy]

I am actually going to Aeros flight training, doing my PPL.

[TeaTowel]

Correct me but I believe BA/Virgin cover the cost of their type rating training anyway!

They effectively don't under the guise of the cadetship. They spin it by saying they are giving people a chance but really they just want the wannabes cash before its spent at another airline.

With regards to the degree grant etc. Maybe the government should get more heavily involved and regulate yearly numbers of how many can train? The schools and airlines wont like that of course.