Longford, Australia, S76 Engine Failure at CDP

[turboheli]

What happened to this thread,it was here yesterday? Are we not permitted to discuss this serious event.

[industry insider]

It seemed to be old news and a well handled event by the crew so I deleted it.

[turboheli]

Only last month,and now subject of ATSB investigation.

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

Not as quiet as all that...
Investigation: AO-2013-124 - Engine failure involving a Sikorsky S76 helicopter, VH-EXU, near Snapper platform, Bass Strait, 11 July 2013 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2013/aair/ao-2013-124.aspx)

[Brian Abraham]

It seemed to be old news and a well handled event by the crew so I deleted it. Well your old news certainly didn't make it to the Pprune community. I've been waiting for the "old news" appearance, having a propriety interest by way of having had two of the operations (Esso - S-76C) now four (that I know of) blow em up engine failures with the Turbomeca.

it wasn't until the third failure that CASA/ATSB took interest by way of an investigation. I have the technical report should anyone be interested, as it's been removed from the ATSB web site.

It has to be remembered too, that Esso, like all large corporations, dislike having their name in the press when it relates to what may be perceived by some as bad news.

A discussion of peoples experience with the Turbomeca would be of interest.

[gulliBell]

...having a propriety interest by way of having had two of the operations (Esso - S-76C) now four (that I know of) blow em up engine failures with the Turbomeca....A discussion of peoples experience with the Turbomeca would be of interest.

Not just with the 1S1 engine in that op Brian, I distinctly remember seeing an Allison C30 spectacularly disintegrating on an S76A at Longford as well. I don't think they salvaged any bits off it either, it just got trashed in the scrap bin :uhoh:

[Brian Abraham]

remember seeing an Allison C30 spectacularly disintegrating on an S76AWell the engine was trying to tell them some thing, having spectacularly failed a trend check, they thought they would double check the figures, during which it threw in it's claw. Actually the C30 gave very good service, only recall one catastrophic engine failure in all the years of operation.

[gulliBell]

Well the engine was trying to tell them some thing, having spectacularly failed a trend check...

Yep, I wrote down the trend check numbers that day as we were on the way out to Marlin platform and they were noticed to be suddenly awful compared with the previous check. Fortunately the engine kept going for another 1.2 hours and didn't blow up until the aircraft was safely on the ground back at Longford. I only saw two C30 failures in 3 years there: one a low-side governor, and this uncontained mechanical failure....

[Nigel Osborn]

I think some people are just naturally unlucky! I spent 3500 hours on the S76A, was the second pilot endorsed in OZ in 78 & never had engine problems but I did have other problems! This was before Esso got them!:ok:

In fact I've never had any Allison fail!

[industry insider]

Brian

It was my prerogative to delete it. It seemed to be a bit sensationalist for a well handled incident.

I have 4000 hours with the 1S1 on the A++ without so much as a murmur and on a similar cycle and # of landings operation to Esso. Maybe they are doing something different?

[helmet fire]

Industry, I am sure it is your prerogative. But there are interested people who would appreciate that your good grace might enable them to discover and discuss this one.

Australia is going to introduce PC1 and PC2 relations into RMS shortly and such incidents are very topical here. I too have been waiting to see this one on the prune and see the reaction when the story comes out.

Lastly, as I have remarked before, we would get 3000 posts criticising a pilot /crew who made a minor error or who can be publicly ridiculed but f all about a job well done and something for us all to learn about how it could be done, how it should be done, and how good some of the outcomes that a good training program can produce. This plot/crew deserve recognition and discussion and even celebration from us as professionals.

Wouldn't it be nice to point to what all those training dollars can really achieve, and why getting the right pilots with the right standards, discipline and knowledge is actually important?

What is the difference between this one and the Myanmar S76 accident? Bueller?
Apart from one thread being deleted?

BTW Longford Engine Failure may not attract as many people as "S76 OEI at TDP" and may also permit better searches and comparisons later? For your consideration turoheli.


Thread title modified: good idea!

Splot

[turboheli]

Interesting to note, no CVR,FDR or recording of engine parameters available. Difficult to conduct a comprehensive investigation with only the testimony of the crew who were obviously under pressure at the time. As already stated, true professionalism and training will always provide the outcomes we all require.

[gulliBell]

All that hardware are installed on those Esso helicopters, so none of it was working on that aircraft on that day? Doesn't the IIDS system capture some of those parameters in memory?
And minor point, I think they call it engine failure at or after CDP down there....

[SASless]

I've never had any Allison fail!


Lucky Sod! Never bet your life on something named for a Woman!

[Brian Abraham]

true professionalism and training will always provide the outcomes we all require. There is a fulsome discussion right there. I understand at the time of the incident the copilot was the flying pilot, and was himself a rated captain.

The sim training at Esso was every two years for rated captains, but zero for copilots. Good idea?

The check and training people excelled at what they did by way of simulating a failed engine at CDP on a rig take off. Set power on one engine where by you were light on the wheels, and at a 125 foot hover pull the good engine as you rotated, so you were left with partial power you had previously set on the remaining engine to fly away. Great fun, but risky?

[Flingwing47]

gee mate,
you are much braver than I would have been - if the trend was downwards I think I would have headed homewards to have it checked pronto !:ooh:

happy hovering

[PO dust devil]

Insider - I also had an interest in the latest of four turbomeca engine blow ups there. I was thinking they might refresh or share the take off profile that has worked in Brian and Pat's fortunate outcomes. No proprietary information or conflict in sharing a safety technique..........is there?

Nothing controversial there, and still of interest. It appears to be well handled by the crew as you said. Why not leave it on public record? Nothing controversial there.

It has been interesting to read the African threads over a long time and Lu Zuckerman threads so it seems just hasty to pull down something so fresh. I am puzzled.

DD. p.s. hey abba

[PO dust devil]

The four turbomeca failures I know of

BA and AC efatdp

DO and NE ef crz

BA and ?? ef thr 27

PR and ?

As I said in another post Nice work Pat!

[gulliBell]

...I know some non-TBO 1S1 engines at Esso have been pulled off airframes after borescope inspections as well.

[oleary]

Brian Abraham states, "Actually the C30 gave very good service, only recall one catastrophic engine failure in all the years of operation."
-------------------------------
You, sir, are extraordinarily UNINFORMED, ...

.... or perhaps new to the industry.

Our average time between engine removal the first couple of years on the S76 A was 128 hours. The C30 blew up with alarming regularity - hence the first "containment kit" - 170 pounds (4 big slabs) of unobtainium designed to deflect the blast outwards and upwards. This bit of sillyness was the Sikorsky/Allision response after a friend of mine blew one up taking out the good engine (this happened numerous times) the AC & DC electrics (junction box under the left engine) AND the TR driveshaft. His says it gets really busy when that happens - and it happened a lot more than once!

[gulliBell]

Brian Abraham states, "Actually the C30 gave very good service, only recall one catastrophic engine failure in all the years of operation."
-------------------------------
You, sir, are extraordinarily UNINFORMED, ...

.... or perhaps new to the industry.


BA I suspect was probably referring to the C30 in-service experience at Esso which I think, overall, gave them many years of reliable service on the S76A. Probably many hundreds of thousands of hours in-flight operation, many of which BA was responsible for. And as far as I know they only had one blow up in-flight, and the other on the ground.

In my limited experience I've seen all engine types blow up at some point in service, and that includes 1S1, 2S1, PT6 and C30. No particular type has a tendency to blow up any more than the others, I'm just glad that a spare was always available on-board when the other didn't want to play any more.

[ericferret]

I would side with you on the C30 OLEARY.

At one point in the early 80's in an attempt to control the massive carbon build up within the engine which was leading to turbine failures one operator had each of it's six aircraft operating on different engine oils to determine which had the best anti coking characteristics.
A maintenance nightmare but the answer was Mobil 254 and that was still in use 25 years later.

The other maintenance nightmare was that every Friday one aircraft had both turbines removed which were sent for a total strip and decoke for reinstallation on the Sunday and flying on Monday.

Can you imagine having to shop visit your engines every six weeks today!!!!!

As for the armour plated engine bays, well I think that speaks for itself.

Gullibell

I think you comments about the general reliability of helicopter engines is accurate.
There are other possible reasons for a bad run, you could just as easily point the finger at operating practices, maintenance or a specific overhaul shop without even mentioning the manufacturer.

For what it's worth we flew about 10,000 engine hours over 4 years with the 1S2 without a total failure. Engines rejected for other reasons FOD, chips e.t.c. but no major failures.

[John Eacott]

You, sir, are extraordinarily UNINFORMED, ...

.... or perhaps new to the industry.

That's not only a bit harsh but remarkably insulting to Brian: a simple check would tell you that he has had a stellar career in helicopters over the past 45 or so years. Esso is well known for excellent maintenance and Brian's experience on the S76 flying for Esso does not deserve your comments, even if your experience of the C30 is less fortunate.

Indeed, my time with the S76A (Okanagan Australia) in the early years had very few engine problems and certainly no failures of note. Does that make me similarly 'uninformed'?

[gulliBell]

That's not only a bit harsh but remarkably insulting to Brian: a simple check would tell you that he has had a stellar career in helicopters over the past 45 or so years...

...including extensive combat experience in Vietnam, having been shot down several times by enemy action (usually on a Sunday!). Respect definitely earned and due.

[industry insider]

O'Leary

Out of order and uncalled for. You should apologise to Brian. He was no doubt referring to Esso Australia.

Your comments show that you are the new boy on the block, even if you do know about the C30 failures.

[HeliTester]

Australia is going to introduce PC1 and PC2 relations into RMS shortly and such incidents are very topical here.
I think what the Europeans have done to establish minimum engine reliability standards for certain PC2 operations (not more than one in-flight engine shut-down per 100,000 flight hours in the most recent 5-year period) is relevant. While Allison C30 and Turbomeca Arriel engines both had reliability issues in the past, I think they currently meet the European standard.

[topendtorque]

not more than one in-flight engine shut-down per 100,000 flight hours in the most recent 5-year period)

That might or might not be a powerful statement. Is it further qualified with number of units being monitored or example? Bit like saying Robinsons crash more than other light helicopters when there are multi more of that type around than others.

cheers tet

[Brian Abraham]

You, sir, are extraordinarily UNINFORMED, ...6,000 hours in the A and ditto in the C. I see where you are coming from though oleary. The early days were indeed trouble some, when I said "good service" I guess I meant very few heart stopping moments - none for this little turkey, though there were some "interesting moments".

[The Sultan]

The S-76A incident which caused everyone to shake their heads was the one where one of the armor plates cut the tail rotor driveshaft after it's mounting fatigued and failed.

The Sultan

[oleary]

John Eacott states, "That's not only a bit harsh but remarkably insulting to Brian: a simple check would tell you that he has had a stellar career in helicopters over the past 45 or so years. Esso is well known for excellent maintenance and Brian's experience on the S76 flying for Esso does not deserve your comments, even if your experience of the C30 is less fortunate.

Indeed, my time with the S76A (Okanagan Australia) in the early years had very few engine problems and certainly no failures of note. Does that make me similarly 'uninformed'? "
----------------------------------------------------------
Yes, John, it does!

Why the hell did Sikorsky/Allison mandate the installation of the 170 pound "containment kit" in 1982!

Esso Canada was mightily pissed about this as they lost one seat - and I know, because I was the Okie job manager in Tuk!

The kit was the result of Dome Petroleum's (Mel Barton, Captain) total destruction of MQE. And this sure as hell was not the only case of a C30 in a 76 grenading.

[oleary]

Brian Abraham states, "6,000 hours in the A and ditto in the C. I see where you are coming from though oleary. The early days were indeed trouble some, when I said "good service" I guess I meant very few heart stopping moments - none for this little turkey, though there were some "interesting moments".
--------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you, Brian. I only had 5 engine malfunctions in the first 500 hours I flew 76's - fortunately nothing as dramatic as a third stage wheel burst - which is what we are talking about here.

I picked up Mel and his co-pilot- there was nothing left but the tail, main blade tips and a few gears.

[oleary]

Brian Abrahamson stated, "Actually the C30 gave very good service, only recall one catastrophic engine failure in all the years of operation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Industry insider states, "Out of order and uncalled for. You should apologise to Brian. He was no doubt referring to Esso Australia."

Your comments show that you are the new boy on the block, even if you do know about the C30 failures.
---------------------------------------------------------------

What utter bull****!!!

Do your homework on uncontained C30 third-stage wheel bursts before you comment again!!!

[industry insider]

Oleary

I started flying the S-76A in the early 80s. I don't need to do my homework, I remember the whole series of C30 failures and the whole episode only too well, I think a friend of mine (TWM) had one.

You are rude. Go away.

[oleary]

Industry insider,

Terry was one the many who had a C30 uncontained third stage event in a 76.

But if there was no problem with the C30 installation, then why did Sikorsky/Allison mandate the installation of that 170 pound "containment kit"? Which was nothing but a Rube Goldberg contrivance designed to protect the helicopter FROM ITS OWN ENGINES!

Which is the point I was trying to make from the beginning.

Perhaps rudely, but never-the-less - TRUE.

Anyway, as I said, do your homework on C18, C20, C28 and C30 third stage bursts. Those engines killed a lot of people - some were friends of mine.

[turboheli]

Allison engines built many houses in the Sale district during the 80s. About 600 hrs was the best time between removals.

[500e]

And still having to fit the dam thing Yep a "C20 Allison" GB but still requires the shrapnel shield at VAST cost
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/500d_2006/IMG_8912.jpg

[gulliBell]

Yep, a schrapnel maker, and expensive shrapnel at that :eek: I think these engines work a lot harder on a S76A than say, on a B206L...even so, handy to have a spare on-board (as long as said shrapnel hasn't taken out any other important bits that you need to get home).

oops: now that I have my beer goggles on that looks more like a 1S1 than a C30?

[skidsR4kids]

PoDD

I'm sure there was a donk lost in the crz in 2009 as well, AD & FB :sad:

Sdsr4Kds

[O/S and BLEEDS]

Actually DD, there was one more. In the cruise on the way back to Longford from Snapper about 4 years ago I think.

[HeliTester]

minimum engine reliability standards for certain PC2 operations (not more than
one in-flight engine shut-down per 100,000 flight hours in the most recent
5-year period)
Is it further qualified with number of units being monitored or example? Bit like saying Robinsons crash more than other light helicopters when there are
multi more of that type around than others.
The metric is engine failure rate and takes into account the sample size. Using the Robinson example, even if there were more Robinson crashes (because there are more Robinsons around), the Robinson crash rate might not be any higher than for other light helicopters.

[Evil Twin]

Can anyone tell me who does the recruiting for Esso at longford now? As I understand it was done by Helicopters Australia but that was some time ago. Is it done in house now?

Cheers
ET

[ersa]

Still done by HNZ global, you will need a S76 ticket though !

[Evil Twin]

Thanks for that, but bugger!

[2leftskids]

They always used to do their own 76 endorsements in house if needed. Has that changed?

[Ralphael]

Well unfortunately, I may be able to lend some info to these old posts which I just found. On 11 August 1984, I was flying a new, less than 160 hours, S-76A model from Morristown, New Jersey to Atlantic City, New Jersey to pick up passengers. While flying over Fort Dix, an Army base, one of my engines suffered a turbine burst. This resulted in taking out the second engine, severing the tail rotor drive shaft and destroying the DC Electric box which killed the AFC. This sent the aircraft all over the sky since it was disabled at a speed of 145 knots. After lowering the collective, and attempting to gain control of the aircraft, I was able to stabilize the autorotation at about 75 knots. The problem was I could see I was heading for trees and there was no alternative. My copilot, Dave Sweeny, died of internal injuries and I suffered a concussion and loss of consciousness. Having an Air Base adjacent to the crash point got us immediate assistance but I have no memory of any of that. When discussing this accident with the FAA they indicated I was number three. I think the first was an oil rig helicopter, and number two was an aircraft flown by the Amway Corporation that crashed in Lake Michigan. From having an aircraft in good enough condition to inspect, the FAA immediately grounded the S-76 Fleet until a protection kit, mentioned in some of your comments, was sent to all users and installed in the aircraft. That's the story as I remember it.

[gulliBell]

Esso hasn't operated S76A's for about 25 years.

[Old Dogs]

Esso hasn't operated S76A's for about 25 years.

Your point?

[Old Dogs]

Well unfortunately, I may be able to lend some info to these old posts which I just found. On 11 August 1984, I was flying a new, less than 160 hours, S-76A model from Morristown, New Jersey to Atlantic City, New Jersey to pick up passengers. While flying over Fort Dix, an Army base, one of my engines suffered a turbine burst. This resulted in taking out the second engine, severing the tail rotor drive shaft and destroying the DC Electric box which killed the AFC. This sent the aircraft all over the sky since it was disabled at a speed of 145 knots. After lowering the collective, and attempting to gain control of the aircraft, I was able to stabilize the autorotation at about 75 knots. The problem was I could see I was heading for trees and there was no alternative. My copilot, Dave Sweeny, died of internal injuries and I suffered a concussion and loss of consciousness. Having an Air Base adjacent to the crash point got us immediate assistance but I have no memory of any of that. When discussing this accident with the FAA they indicated I was number three. I think the first was an oil rig helicopter, and number two was an aircraft flown by the Amway Corporation that crashed in Lake Michigan. From having an aircraft in good enough condition to inspect, the FAA immediately grounded the S-76 Fleet until a protection kit, mentioned in some of your comments, was sent to all users and installed in the aircraft. That's the story as I remember it.

A friend of mine, Mel Barton, had exactly the same experience.

[gulliBell]

Your point?

My point is, this topic was about an engine failure in a S76C fitted with an Arriel 1S1 engine. Not an S76A fitted with an Allison/RR C30S engine.