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poonpossum
15th Aug 2013, 15:22
Some skydive outfit, ADVERTISING a PPL as an acceptable minimum?

Skydive Central Queensland

Skydive Central Queensland is a drop zone that operates on weekends located between Rockhampton and Gladstone and is the only one in the area.

Looking for hours or something to do on weekends, this may be for you.

Central Queensland 55km from Gladstone and 65km from Rockhampton.
Cessna 182 and 206

Minimum Qualifications:


PPL or CPL
200hrs TT
100 PIC
10 hrs on type Cessna 182
Class 2 medical or better


Is this essentially advertising that they are not intending to pay their pilot, as well as being a not for profit drop zone?

I'm surprised AFAP accepted a job ad with a PPL minimum listed.

Why skydive ops are exempt from needing an AOC is beyond me.

pilotchute
15th Aug 2013, 15:25
Poon,

You can fly skydivers on a PPL as it is considered a private op. Plenty of PPL's out there doing it right now.

27/09
15th Aug 2013, 20:57
I find it amazing that they had to advertise the position

VH-XXX
15th Aug 2013, 23:02
Don't APF specify CPL these days? There was a thread on this not long back.

Jay Bo
16th Aug 2013, 01:36
I think these are the hours needed as a minimum unless its changed

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft used for parachuting must have at least:
(i) A private pilot licence without area restriction, and two hundred (200) hours total aeronautical experience, of which at one hundred (100) hours must be as pilot in command, or
(ii) An APF Certificate D, and a private pilot licence without area restriction, and one hundred and twenty (120) hours total aeronautical experience of which seventy (70) hours must be as a pilot in command.
(b) 10 hours on the particular aircraft type or an aircraft type of similar performance, weight and operational complexity.
(c) Effective from 01 June 2010, a Jump Pilot authorization, issued by the APF

DH164
16th Aug 2013, 04:09
Poon, you're a hack. Get your facts straight before posting. What would be the benefit of forcing AOCs upon dropzones? I'm not exactly how it came to be that skydiving ops are not classed as commercial but thank god thats the way it is. I'm guessing you also have a problem with people selling joyflights in AWAL aircraft? After all, you dont need an AOC to do that. To think people want to see more redtape...

MakeItHappenCaptain
16th Aug 2013, 05:45
What would be the benefit of forcing AOCs upon dropzones? I'm not exactly how it came to be that skydiving ops are not classed as commercial but thank god thats the way it is.


Really? Read the report into the five people killed at Willowbank and the fact it was not clear when the pilot's last emergency ops proficiency was checked (as would be required at least yearly under an AOC) and then say thank god it wasn't you in the back of that flight. :mad:

XXXX had no previous experience flying parachuting operations and no commercial experience when he commenced with the Brisbane Skydiving Centre on 1 July 2005. When he commenced flying the Cessna 206 on parachuting sorties on 30 July, he had not yet accrued ten hours flying time on type as required by the APF operational regulations. However, YYYY considered he was sufficiently trained and capable of flying the Cessna 206. He said further that he had supervised and coached the pilot during several of his early parachuting flights.
It is clear that YYYY did not consider that, as the owner of the aircraft and the operator of the Brisbane Skydiving Centre, he had any formal training role; nor did he provide for any recurrent training or checking of pilots used in the business. Because the skydiving business was able to operate without an air operator’s certificate (AOC), YYYY was not required to have a chief pilot appointed; nor were there any requirements for a Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) approved testing officer or a check to line system to be employed.
The ATSB report notes there was no evidence that XXXX had completed a knowledge check on the incident aircraft in accordance with the APF’s jump pilots handbook and aircraft operation procedures manual or that appropriately documented emergency procedures were available for the modified Cessna 2O6 aircraft.

Yeah, good idea we don't need to make sure we have competent and current pilots flying paying pax around. Bullsiht.

RIP, Nige.:(

Ixixly
16th Aug 2013, 06:21
In all fairness Makeithappencaptain, go through the ATSB and have a look at the number of Sport Aviation accidents, 18 Aircraft which resulted in Fatalities, resulting in 21 Fatalities from 2002 - 2011, 344 Incidents and 31 Serious Incidents, compared to lets say Aerial Work which has 41 Aircraft involved in Fatalities resulting in 56 Fatalities, 2,587 Incidents and 134 Serious Incidents.

Admittedly for the Sports Aviation it doesn't include Accidents/Incidents per Million Hours unlike the Aerial work category does so we can't get a really good comparison, but my point is that maybe you should rethink your statement. An AOC doesn't automatically make an operation safer, nor does the lack of one make it less safe than others. Percentage wise, I wouldn't be surprised if there were just as many dodgy AOC Holders operating as there are Skydiving Operators without an AOC.

I felt compelled to type this as someone who has operated at 2 different DZs (Not a large number admittedly) and don't appreciate the implication that the work I conducted was dodgy or unsafe.

DH164
16th Aug 2013, 06:41
Thats a terrible example. Whenever there is an accident, 99% of the time there is some form of sheer stupidity involved. AOC or not, 20.11 check or not, or any other bullsht piece of official paperwork saying 'nah guize, trust me on this one, this pilot is GOOD'.

At Willowbank they had an engine that was already showing signs it wasnt happy but they decided to continue flying whilst overloaded and thats the stupidity in this case. Whoever the pilot is, if it starts coughing on you at 100' on a 36 degree day, then you're going to have a bad time. I just can't say that had there been an AOC in place and adheard to this accident wouldn't have occurred. You could open up the next can of worms by saying maybe the pilot was pressured into flying overweight with a dodgy engine, but that happens on a regular basis at mobs issued with AOCs.

An AOC didn't save the poor nurse who was murdered by the fellow driving the Mojave. Didn't prevent a westwind from getting a bit wet at the hands of old mate.

People need to stop hiding behind the bureaucratic processes and take responsibility for coqing up.

Orion Delta
16th Aug 2013, 07:12
Murdered? Wow

norwester33
16th Aug 2013, 08:22
DH164

Out of curiosity would you accept this óffer'and fly for free?.

DH164
16th Aug 2013, 10:38
If I were a local with 200 hours wanting to build hours I very well may have.

MakeItHappenCaptain
16th Aug 2013, 11:41
I flew at the same DZ as my example. My friend was one of those killed. I was of the view that it was going to cost me $200 per hour to get that experience. The pilot in the example was 19, wasn't getting paid, had no super, no insurance and is DEAD. My opinions are vastly different now with a bit of hindsight.

Ixixly, your statement leaves me flabbergasted. Can you honestly say that proficiency checks, a minimum supervised period of flying before being let loose and adhering to flight and duty limits don't make an operation safer than one that has none of these features in place? If airwork is so dangerous by your reasoning, then maybe all training should be discontinued. There is no fairness or logic to your statement AT ALL!

DH, your statement that "I'm so glad no-one checks up on me" smacks of either being a DZ operator who wants free pilots or someone who does actually need the supervision. Why is my example terrible? An inexperienced pilot who didn't know any better as you put it? A Chief Pilot who did know better would certainly have given these five people a better chance.

Both of you need your heads read.:cool:

romeocharlie
16th Aug 2013, 12:07
If scumbag operators want to pay their pilots nothing under the guise of it's character building et al, then they deserve to be shut down.... or worse.

You don't turn up to maccas and work 12hrs for free just for the experience or character building while the owners get rich, why is it acceptable to take advantage of people who've just spent upwards of $60k looking for hrs.

I've worked in 3 drop zones, 2 of which were exceptional. Shame I can't say the same for the first. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Ixixly
16th Aug 2013, 12:10
At both DZs I flew at there was all those checks done and we followed all F&D and no we didn't have AOCs at either of them. I've seen a few AOC Operators who do all the right checks on paper but in the end those hours were worth nothing as nothing useful was really passed on.

I think you've misunderstood me Makeithappencaptain. When done properly, of course the checks and training required of an AOC Operator should make them safer than someone not doing them, that wasn't my point though. My point is that simply holding an AOC does not automatically make an operation safer, nor does NOT having an AOC make an operation less safe. You're implying that because DZs don't operate with an AOC that automatically makes them less safe than Operators who do have an AOC, this is far to simplistic and misleading, it comes down to the operation itself doing things in a safe and proper manner, not simply the holding of a piece of paper.

currawong
16th Aug 2013, 13:54
Comparing Aerial Work stats to Sport Aviation stats is laughable.

One is operational flying. Getting a job done, often in challenging conditions, consistently, over and over again.

The other is not. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

johnwells3366
16th Aug 2013, 18:49
As a broke fresh 150 hour CPL I would 100% work for free to get some hours up. As far as ruining the industry or for the next people, that was done long before I started my flying training.

I am not whinging that is just how it is and I am happy (well not really) to play the game and bend over to get some hours as I have limited options for the foreseeable future.

I have spoken to my mates about this many many times and unless they have rich parents they all have the same feelings as me. Im sure there are people who feel different I just dont know any of them.

I am sure ill cop some abuse for this but I am def not alone

Capt Fathom
16th Aug 2013, 22:26
John, if you work for free now, how will you pay for your next endorsement, and the one after that, and the one after that!

We pilots are a weird lot. Is there any other industry where people work for nothing?

hiwaytohell
16th Aug 2013, 22:39
Is there any other industry where people work for nothing?

Yes law & medicine for many starting out and newbies in those professions have more time and money invested than a fresh CPL.

If the skydive club is prepared to let someone fly their plane with minimal hours, and they get valuable experience in return, it seems like a fair trade off

johnwells3366
16th Aug 2013, 22:47
If I dont get some more hours up I wont need anymore endos because nobody will hire me with under 200 hours.

Looks like ill be throwing dirt for a bit longer lol

seneca208
16th Aug 2013, 22:54
If the skydive club is prepared to let someone fly their plane with minimal hours, and they get valuable experience in return, it seems like a fair trade off

This is the opinion of most skydive operators I've ever met.

Why is allowing a CPL holder to fly a basic aircraft such a privilege? These operators need people to fly their planes, and CPL holders are appropriately trained and qualified to do so. There is certainly no special privilege regardless of how many hours you have, in my opinion.

johnwells3366, it may be true that the industry has already been damaged by pilots before you, but there's also a sense of self worth. Paying for an endorsement or working for free might get you closer to your dream job, but you know you've played a part in damaging the interests of pilots.

As a low hour pilot, I had been offered two pilot positions within skydiving companies. One operator insisted that his hourly payment was hours in his crappa 182, the other required me to pay quite a few thousand dollars in endorsement training. Although taking either of these positions would have definitely put me forward in my career (possibly more so than now), I refuse to work for free by principle only.

romeocharlie
16th Aug 2013, 23:02
Hiwaytohell, I hope you're joking.

I don't know who you know in law and medicine, but EVERY single person I know that is about to start or is in their first year as a grad nurse, Intern, or paralegal is getting paid. I can assure you it is a bloody lot more than I ever got paid in my first 10 years of aviation. If you think I'm wrong look it up - and they don't have to continually hand out money for endorsements et al either.

This is just one example of grad nurses. http://www.nursing.health.wa.gov.au/docs/working/wages.pdf

I don't care if it is a sport jumping club or a business. $5 per jumper per load and you've got a (probably) happily paid pilot. Finally, I'm sure you don't work for free, don't expect someone else to.

johnwells3366
16th Aug 2013, 23:18
I might be wrong Ben, but sounds like you have a few more hours than 150. Congrats, I am very jealous and hope to be there soon.

"dream job" ? no just any job.

Maybe I look at it a bit different. Even flying friends around that will still probably cost me $50/hour. So I would have to throw dirt for 2 hours for that one hour. Or do some skydiving for free.

I know this is the mentality skydive operators exploit but there are not many other options.

Nah I have no guilt that I have damaged the interests of pilots as you cant damage what is already broken (yeah I know I left that one open for a few come backs)

I guess its a case of "Dont hate the player, hate the game"

Ixixly
16th Aug 2013, 23:34
For jonhwells3366 and ben_093 it depends on the DZ you're at. The first one I was at I didn't get paid but it was a club, all money went back into the club, no one was making money just covering costs so I certainly didn't mind in that case, got some good experience, met a bunch of great people and had a blast. The free beer or two at the end of the day sure helped as well! The hours I got there allowed me to get the job at my second DZ.

Second DZ I was at was a business not a club and as such I was paid per load. Each load took about 0.4, I got paid $20 a load which meant about $50/hr about 4 years ago and the boss was kind enough to even buy me lunch when we were working over lunch time! The second DZ got me where I needed to be to get my first full-time job.

There are certainly good ones out there and there are those who are looking to take advantage of Pilots, its up to each of us to decide which type each DZ is and act accordingly.

Capt Fathom, why should we be paying for endorsements in the first place? :O

mcgrath50
16th Aug 2013, 23:53
Like anything there are good operators and bad operators. The DZ I worked at paid a few buck more than Ixxily. I never paid for lunch or dinner if we all went out. My Jump Pilot Approval (endorsement training?) was paid for and done in their aircraft including the ~1 hour each way ferry to the examiner. A trip to the local main airport for the 100 hourly (including a stay at the backpackers) was paid for. The boss never questioned if I didn't want to fly due to weather or maintenance (although maintenance never was an issue despite the plane being twice my age).

I really enjoyed my time at the drop zone. I still say, if there was more money and BIG aircraft like in Europe and the US in our skydiving community I may have stayed a lot longer. I was also acutely aware though I had been very lucky with the company I had ended up with.

Set your own standards, have a bit of integrity and you will get the respect you deserve.

Capt Fathom
16th Aug 2013, 23:54
why should we be paying for endorsements in the first place?

I never have. But people do apparently!

Ixixly
17th Aug 2013, 00:54
Capt Fathom, price it and they will come I suppose! :}

pilotchute
17th Aug 2013, 07:40
Johnwells,

Your 150 hour CPL, Did that include a night rating? Or a Aerobatic rating? Tailwheel? When I started my CPL I asked if I could get a job with 150 hours because most of the ads I had seen for entry level jobs (mustering and the like) required 200 to 250 hours. The staff let me know that even though I could get a CPL with 150 hours it would be hard to crack a job with such little total time. About halfway to getting my CPL the more senior instructors suggested doing some more training to get me closer to the 200 instead of just boring holes in the sky. I was doing the night rating anyway but doing the other 2 got me to 175 hours. finished with IFR and then boom! 200 hours. I'm pretty sure the tailwheel was instrumental in one of my job offers a few years ago.

As a side note I did check the whole 200 hour thing with some charter operators. They all agreed that no way could they hire someone with less than 200 hours. The insurance just wouldn't accept it.

John, sounds like you didn't research or the school didn't inform you of the difficulty of getting a job with such low time. Did you think when you graduated you would get something with 150 hours?

mcgrath50
17th Aug 2013, 09:15
Think of your fresh CPL as an apprenticeship, you wouldn't dig trenches for FREE as an apprentice plumber just to "build experience".

And that's what a job like skydiving is. It's like digging a ditch, great experience for the first month or three, but by then you have it pretty down pat and if you are working for a smaller drop zone with only a C206 or C182 there's no where to move up to. It's an awesome job and it allows you to build a variety of skills but it's very similar every day. They might be doing you a favour in the first month but after that you should be a highly competent jump pilot and deserving of some money for the loads.

If it really is a club, and NO ONE is getting paid, instructors, tandem master, CI etc. then fair enough. But otherwise, you should be compensated.

Flying Bear
17th Aug 2013, 09:54
The Company I work for has taken pilots with less than 200 hrs and has pilots with less than 1000 hrs total flying C441.

When recruiting junior pilots, let's face it - there is little difference between a 150 hr pilot and a 250 hr pilot. The important thing is temperament, maturity and sense of professionalism. The "insurance" thing is largely a cop out, in my opinion - an easy way to show a pesky wannabe the door...

However, the moment that we suspect a pilot will work for free, he gets shown the door. It's difficult enough in GA without pilots undermining the profession. Anyone who thinks that working for free to get hours will translate into being able to demand better pay and conditions later is kidding themselves, undermining the rest of us and condemning future pilots to more of the same crappy apprenticeship into the industry.

However, we are not a skydiving operation. Of the specifics of that niche of the industry, I have little direct experience.

Jack Ranga
17th Aug 2013, 11:41
You guys are funny!

Pinky the pilot
17th Aug 2013, 13:37
I really don't know if it's just my age, ie the generation I was born into and the education and upbringing I recieved, but I look most unfavourably upon any pilot who would agree to work for nothing just to get a start!:mad:

Fact is, I wouldn't **** on one who did if they were on fire in the gutter!:yuk:

Get the message?:rolleyes:

Rant mode off.

morno
17th Aug 2013, 23:25
Here here Pinky.

Don't justify working for nothing by "if I don't, the next guy will". By doing it, you are completely supporting these parasites who think it's ok.

morno

grrowler
18th Aug 2013, 01:49
Perhaps a stronger union presence at the grass root levels to stamp out this practice would instill some ethics and pride in our industry which would carry through to airline level. I am constantly surprised at the number of people in good airline jobs who would still sell their grandmother for an extra stripe/ bigger ac, etc.

Protecting the vulnerable "bare" cpl could even boost your ailing memberships, union!

seneca208
18th Aug 2013, 02:11
Perhaps for a lot of young guys it's just not knowing any better?

johnwells3366 and others have made some reasonable points. Going from flying school and other private flying which costs upwards of $200 an hour, getting 10 hours a weekend flying a drop plane for free seems like a great proposition to a newly graduated commercial pilot with slim prospects of paid employment elsewhere. How many times has somebody said, 'some flying is better than no flying'?

Maybe as grrowler mentioned, better union representation for unemployed pilots, particularly those in transition from sausage factory flying school to GA employment. I know it would definitely help me.

Wally Mk2
18th Aug 2013, 03:30
Trouble is to be effective & not working for free you need unity, total unity (something we will never see in this country anymore) & where flying newbies are concerned it's back to basic animal instincts, survival of the fittest. It's the same in all walks of life, humans have been crawling over themselves to get ahead since the microbe stage & will continue to do so for all time.
From the morons that race ahead in their cars & takes risks to do so just to get one cars length ahead of the traffic shows that it's wired into our makeup to 'beat' the competition & there's nufin' you can do about that for most.

The whole gambit of not paying for a job (which we all have since we started flying & paying for it at day one btw) & flying for free means the flying landscape has changed, no longer has this industry at that basic level got a long term future & notions of flourishing is short lived, it's all but dead........welcome to the new world so adapt or get left behind & that my fellow aviators is just the way it is.

Wmk2

Wmk2

Aussie Bob
18th Aug 2013, 06:05
1. Go work for them for free
2. Document all the work you do including hours onsite
3. When ready to quit take em to court for unpaid wages

This will show that you are:
(a) An idiot
(b) A scab who cannot keep his word

And the dodgy organisation that employs you will get lumped with a bill that may well send them to the wall.

All problems solved.

DropYourSocks
18th Aug 2013, 12:55
In a few years time there won't be any GA left to con pilots into flying for free. Problem solved :rolleyes:

Mark_Tuck
18th Aug 2013, 15:54
Funny how some guys see a few hours of unpaid jump flying to be anything different than paying for your own endorsement (in one way or another) at major airlines. We're getting screwed at both ends of the aviation ladder if you ask me! :sad:

Aussie Bob
18th Aug 2013, 19:02
Mark, I don't really care but looking around the traps, it is the skydivers in some areas that make money and have good planes, therefor the question remains, why can't they pay their pilots?

The only reason some don't is because of pilots who fly for free.

Ejector
18th Aug 2013, 19:30
It looks like a club, open 1 weekend a month.

pilotchute
19th Aug 2013, 02:01
I dropped chutes for a bit and was lucky enough to get in with a company that did pay you for your time. A 6 day week got you $900 before tax and Super. My decisions to ground a plane or not fly due weather were never questioned.

There are 2 other drop zone operations on the East Coast of Australia that have the same sort of pay and conditions. The one I worked for and the other 2 have multiple locations and primarily fly turbine single engine aircraft. They are run as a business and hence they pay.

If you are flying for a club then you don't get paid. That's the whole idea of a club. That said if its a club you fly for then you don't pay any training costs either. The job I had, asked you to pay the cost of the turbine rating up front which you got back after certain period of time. This was only done because in the past people had got a free endo and then ran off 6 weeks later when they had 150 hours turbine.