Narrowed it down to these schools

[wecrashlanded]

G'Day PPRuNe,

So I'm coming to the end of my military service, with a bit of change in hand, and I'm ready to start my flight training. Having spent a ton of time reading on here, as well as doing some research of my own, I've narrowed down some flight schools I'm thinking about attending, and want to get your input on which one is "better". Now I thought I should add the obvious disclaimers. First, I know visiting a school is the best way to get to know a place, rather than here, but as I'm literally going to be spending the next several months floating around the ocean, so that's not entirely possible. Further, money is a bit of an issue, so I'm planning on going modular, and hence the geographical region in which most of the flight schools I mention are located. And lastly, thank you for taking your time if you do post, it'll greatly help a poor sailor who wants to get off the bloody ocean and into the skies.

1) Bartolini Air (Lodz, Poland) - So far, has a great reputation on here. Lodz is, from all accounts, a great airport to learn at, and it's relatively inexpensive, only EUR 45k for 0 - Hero. I've emailed them as well, and they were prompt and courteous in their replies. Also, the cost of living in Poland is enticing.

2) DSA (Hradec Kralove, Czech Republic) - Not as talked about on here as #1 or #3, it still has a pretty good reputation from the few posts I've read on it. They offer an integrated package for only EUR30k which isn't bad at all. I imagine it's cheaper for modular, although I haven't looked yet. And same reasons for going to Poland apply to going to the Czech Republic. Plus, have you seen their woman? Or tried their beer? Exactly.

3) Intercockpit (Frankfurt, Germany) - While Germany is a fair bit more expensive, this school looks attractive. The reputation on here isn't as good as say Bartolini, but from all accounts they have excellent equipment, facilities, and a modular fATPL will only be about EUR47k, which isn't bad especially considering they offer 50k funding with no collateral.



Anyways, those are the three I've narrowed it down to. I'm a big believer in enjoying the journey, so I'm not necessarily out to get me arse into a big, shiny jet a.s.a.p. I would eventually like to, of course, but things like bush flying in Africa, among other things (yenno, the fun stuff) is a bigger priority for me in the short term.

If there's any other schools out there I may not have heard of, feel free to pipe up.

Thanks for your time PPRuNe.

[UberPilot]

Don't forget that you can use elcas tier 1 and 2 claims towards civil flying training. So if you've served for more than 8 yrs, 2 elcas claims either side of April will put 4k towards any course. Also investigate the raf flying clubs; some will offer the initial ppl instruction at about 100 pounds per hour including instruction, and 80 pounds an hour solo. That's about as cheap as anywhere abroad.

[Hagop]

Hi wecrashlanded,
I have checked Bartolini Air's website.. they have stated the price of the zero-hero program is 45k EUR (as you said above) including 18 months accommodation! The price is very competitive but sounds a bit strange for me! I mean it's pretty cheap as compared to other modular flight schools (50k-60k EUR) excluding accommodations. Do you have any idea about why is the price as such? Is there something wrong with the school? Or do they have cheap aircraft rentals? We all know the famous saying: "You get what you pay for"
That's why I'm asking. Feel free to share any additional info you have.

[TOLIP-LPTA]

If by zero-hero program you mean a frozen ATPL(A) then the stated price of 45k EUR at Bartolini Air is real. Calculation is easy. The only thing you really need to know is 2 prices - in Poland 1h SE (C-150/P2002JF) cost about 130-160 EUR/h and ME (P2006T) is about 300 EUR/h. Simple calculation 6h MEP(L) + 15h IR/ME + 5h CPL(A) complex part + 4.5h ME exams (CPL(A) ME and IR/ME) = 30.5h ME + 173h SE (that includes PPL(A) + VFR NIGHT + hour build-up). 173h because you need to have 200h TT before you take CPL(A) + IR/ME exam. Add 40h IR FNTP II training (60-70 EUR/h).

Do the calculation for yourself. Also, remember that many schools in Poland give theory courses for free if you do the practical part - therefore you can easily assume that you can get those free of charge. Accommodation in Lodz is cheap - you can get a 1-bedroom condo for about 300EUR/month (incl. electricity/water/heating). TV/Internet is usually included (if not, add max. 20-25EUR/month). If you rent a private room - it can cost you as low as 150EUR/month. Hotels will run you about 30EUR/night (discounts for long stays). Food is also cheap and you have IKEA near (3km) the school.

Check with Bartolini Air what do they exactly offer for this price and have in mind that (most likely) all of your ME hours are on P2006T, which is cheaper than Piper Seneca. On the other hand, if you want the cheapest option - you can take CPL(A) exam on a single engine plane (C-150/P2002JF) and do the complex part of CPL(A) training on a SE complex plane (Piper Arrow). I know they offer Piper Seneca familiarization, so even if you do all your ME training on P2006T, you can add few hundred EUR and familiarize yourself with Seneca.

[Hagop]

Now the total price of the program makes sense, thanks for the info TOLIP-LPTA. Have you been in that school before? If yes, then how do you rate it?(fleet, instructors, first time passes, employment after obtaining the frozen ATPL)?

Does training in heavy aircraft C-172/PA28(SE) and PA-34 Piper Seneca(ME) have an advantage over light aircraft C-150/P2002JF (SE) and P2006T(ME)?

As for the ATPL theory part, they have stated on the website: "3 month online training through Bristol Groundschool, after which there will be a 10 day classroom session at the Bartolini Air facilities in Lodz, Poland.
After finishing the 10 day classroom session students can start writing their exams at the CAA in Warsaw."
I don't think a student can finish all the 14 ATPL subject tests in 3 months!. Any idea ?

[TOLIP-LPTA]

Yes, I've trained at that school but not long enough to rate everything.

Tecnam planes (P2006T and P2002JF) are new and well maintained (the school has its own CAMO). They got a substantial financing from the European Union to buy P2006T so they can and do take good care of it. As far as C-150 is concerned, it's as new as it can be - most likely produced in 1980s. Other planes look good from outside, but I have no knowledge of how they look inside.

Instructors - I've flown only with one of them. Proficient English, good teaching skills, very good knowledge of all plane devices/systems. As far as I noticed, others speak English quite well.

First time passes - no knowledge of practical tests beside my own test. I passed at first time. Theory tests - have a look here http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/445731-bartolini-air-flight-school-2.html#post7696372

Employment - no knowledge.

If you learn how to fly C-150/C-152 you'll have no problem flying C-172 (1h familiarization with instructor will be enough). Piper Arrow - don't know. Tecnam P2002JF - it has a stick instead of a yoke. Never flown, but heard that 1h familiarization is enough. Tecnam P2006T and Piper Seneca - everybody claims that there is a big difference because Seneca's MTOW (depending on the version but around 2000kg) is almost 2 times more than Tecnam's (1180kg). Never had a chance to fly Seneca, maybe somebody who had can give some input on that.

3 months distance learning course of ATPL (as far as I remember: 550h of self-study) and 10 days of classroom session (10x10h=100h) is possible and real. I did go thru a distance learning course like that (not Bristol though) and passed all my exams in 1 session (yes, one 2-week session). Overall it took me about 5months - 3 months on-line, 10 days classroom + few days to apply at Polish CAO to get password to be able to take tests. ATPL(A) CBTs are organized in Poland every month - currently the last 2 full weeks of the month (usually excluding one summer month - this year it was August). Remember, that you'll have to travel to Warsaw (1h45min by train one way + 25min tram to CAO) to take each of your tests. Of course, one day you can take few test (even all 14 if you feel lucky enough).

My advice would be - gather as much info as you can about contract details (amount of hours on particular planes, who pays for plane rental for your exams, etc.) from all 3 schools you named and estimate your living conditions. When you have all that information - make a decision. Maybe somebody can share info about those 2 other schools you consider.

[Hagop]

Thank you for the information provided.. they were really helpful. Cheers!
Hagop.

[federico100mt]

Hey Guys,

anyone here who apply for CAA UK licence through Bartolini?
What about the reputation they have in the rest of Europe?

[tecbar]

The only thing I can tell you is that they have two UK CAA examiner in house. Generally speaking they are very well prepared for foreign student. One of the instructor is Italian, another is French and the examiners are certified by several European Authorities.