A320 simulator IREX flight test.

[hainguyen830]

Hi every one,

Im doing the long-distance oversea ATPL conversion course. I'm going to OZ to sit the exams in Sep 2013. But now Im being stuck on looking for flight school where I can do the IREX flIght test.

Anyone has any recommandation to good flight schools or simulator centre at anywhere in Australia? I'm an A320 rated and current copilot. I would love to do the flight test on A320 Sim better.

I heard that there is an Alteon Flight Training in Brisbane but there is no way I can get onto their home website.

Any recommandation will be appreciated

[Peter Pan Pan]

Alteon rebranded as Boeing Training & Flight services a year or two ago. You might have more luck here:

Boeing: Flight Services (http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/aviationservices/flight-services/training/brisbane.page)

Cheers
PPP

[RUMBEAR]

Try Ansett Flight Training in Melbourne. They should be able to help with Instrument Rating Flight test in A320 simulator.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Ansett Aviation Training.

I've just booked my CIR renewal through them - very friendly and obliging.

http://www.ansettsimulators.com/contact-us/

Ansett Aviation Training :: Contact Us (http://www.ansettsimulators.com/contact-us/)

[DeltaT]

Someone is bound to be able to find this in the regs someplace, but I have been down this path, and due to the Training Establishment not being affiliated or run by an Airline, and you not being an employee of an Airline they cannot renew an IR, or perhaps the catch is they cannot renew an expired IR.
Heads up for you anyway, check it all out first.

[LeadSled]

hainguen830,

A post has already alluded to post that refers to possible limitation at Ansett Flight Training.

It can actually go a bit further than that, I am aware of one case where a candidate for an INITIAL issue of a CIR had to negotiate a Legislative Instrument with CASA to allow him to do an initial in a simulator, and not an actual aircraft.

Given that CASA policy and recent changes to CAOs are all about using more simulation, not less, there are some serious contradictions.

Do your homework very carefully. Using a 320, you may find it cheaper to do the FAA license and endorsement, and the FAA Multi/Land/Instrument ATR is a lot more useable/commercially attractive.

Tootle pip!!

[Joker89]

Leadsled can you provide anything further?

I'm in a similar situation, I can't believe you can't do a CIR in a sim. I know of many people who have done it as part of an endorsement or recurrent training, not in a 320 but in a 737/kingair.

[pilotchute]

I have no idea what the actual regs are but I can tell you what I saw.

I know that Tiger Airways Australia was doing initial issue's of instrument ratings in the sim an Ansett. The people being rated were pilots on 457 visa's from Singapore and Australians who had been away for 10 plus years and were now needing to do an initial issue of MECIR to take up pilot positions with Tiger Australia.

I know the CP was in the sim at the time and had powers of initial issue.

[Joker89]

CAO 40.2.1

10.4.2 the instrument rating test must be conducted:
a) by casa, an approved testing officer or an approved person; and
b) in an aircraft, or approved synthetic flight trainer that is appropriate to the grade of instrument rating sought.

So question is, is the 320 flight sim an approved synthetic flight trainer? No mention of a requirement to be affiliated with an airline.

[DeltaT]

@Pilotchute, read what you have said, and what I have said. Perhaps my bad it wasn't extremely clear, I was hoping someone would find the regs to quote.
It was Tiger doing it for their pilots, new or otherwise.
Joe Bloggs pilot, off the street, not working in an airline, I don't believe a training simulator place other than, for example say Qantas who own and operate their own sims, would have the authority/certification to do the IR. Because I am not 100% sure on the technicality other than there is one, it's a bit like having a CASA Examiner qualified to test anyone (and rated for the Aircraft), as opposed to those C&T certified for that company only. So if you can find a A320 CASA examiner yes sure hire the Ansett Sim -that will work, but I don't believe Ansett on its own can just 'do' an IR test/renewal as they as a company are not certified to do so. -They don't have examiners under their employment, unless all that has changed since I tried and I am now talking out my arse.
That was my experience, happy to be proven wrong.

[LeadSled]

Folks,

When you are working for a company that has a CAR 217 approval, you can do whatever the CAR 217 approval says. In this case, the simulator(s) will be approved as part of the CAR 217.

When you are an individual, it is quite different, hence the contradictions, despite what 40.2.1 may seem to say.

As it stands, a "private" candidate will have to get specific approval from CASA and the agreement of whoever has the simulator you want to use. In my experience, many "service providers" are very reluctant to deal with individuals, because that means they are taking responsibility for the standards. In the case of their "airline" or other customers, it is the training people from the "airline" that do the final checks and sign of the paperwork, and they are covered by the operating company insurance.

I have seen any number of "contracts to provide services" where all the record shows is something like: "Between the dates of xxxxxxx and yyyyyyy, Captain zzzzzz was present when the following sequences were demonstrated" . No mention of standards or competence, that is all for the pilot's employer to determine. It is a legally very thorny and fraught area.

Hence my suggestion of Flight Safety or similar, who have no such "problems".

Tootle pip!!

[Joker89]

I see the problem you raise but don't understand how flight safety can help.

I didn't think you could do an Aussie MECIR initial overseas only a renewal. If you do the FAA ATP exam and flight test and then convert to an Aussie ATPL is there any requirement to do the CIR flight test or only IREX?

[Mach E Avelli]

Every delegation that I have held has been specifically tied to a company with a CAR 217 approval. I don't have the wording with me now, but recall that I could only issue ratings to COMPANY pilots.

Independent ATOs do exist - usually at GA level. Reading the CAO above, it would seem that if you could find a current independent ATO who also happened to hold an A 320 rating you probably could get your CIR renewed. The simulator has its own approval, so that part would (should?) not be an issue.
But if this is your first Australian Instrument Rating, I am uncertain how CASA would want to play it. Get something in writing from them.

What I am fairly certain of, is that passing IREX then sloping off to the USA to do the flight test won't impress them and probably won't work unless Flight Safety have a tame CASA ATO on staff.

Once the new CASR Part 142 comes in at the end of the year, this grey area in the rules will go away.

[LeadSled]

Joker88,

What I was suggesting re. Flight Safety was why bother with an Australian ATPL at all, the world is a big place, there are far more opportunities around the world for employment than in Australia, and the FAA system is a known quantity most places.

MachE is on the money, maybe there are independent CASA ATOs that have an A320 approval and access to a CASA approved simulator, but I suggest they are literally as scarce as hen's teeth.Hanguyen, make life easy for yourself, and go and do the initial on a beat up little twin somewhere, make CASA happy, if you really want an Australian ATPL and CIR.

That's the point of the Australian system, as it is operating at present, make life as difficult as possible for anybody who does not have bigger legal budget than CASA.

As the CASA slogan goes: " We ain't happy 'til you ain't happy", "Empty Skies are Safe Skies."

Tootle pip!!

[rodney rude]

I Can tell you 100 percent absolutely categorically that provided you have an a320 endorsement, you can do an instrument rating at Ansett. no affiliation with any airline required. Many Aussie pilots flying airbus in Europe, middle east and Asia come and do their renewals at Ansett to keep it valid.

You can do the written irex via a third party on the net.

If anyone doubts me, well, ring Ansett, 03 9373 8000, and just ask them.

[polaris79]

Does anyone know if one has a initial done in Australia already - and wishes to conduct a CASA license renewal in an overseas A320 sim say Singapore Boeing, is this at all possible? There is a CAAP that is directed towards renewals in an overseas simulator which I have used many times, but the aircraft i fly does not have a sim in Australia, however in the case of the A320 there are a few sims in Aus - so what would apply here? My guess is that i think CASA would still accept this as a renewal given the sim/instructor and the training org check out ok!