New Japanese Carrier

[oldgrubber]

The new Japanese "helicopter carrier".
Nice!
It would look better with a ski jump.

Japan Unveils Largest Warship Since WWII (http://news.sky.com/story/1125173/japan-unveils-largest-warship-since-wwii)

Cheers now

[racedo]

Submariner somewhere smiles......................Ah new target.

[oldgrubber]

As a primarily ASW ship she does have some tools to keep her safe (up to 14 cabs so they say).
At least Japan have (airborne) maritime assets to give their fleet a fighting chance.

Cheers now

[Willard Whyte]

It would look better with a ski jump.

Nah. Cats 'n Traps? Yeah.

[chopper2004]

What variant of JSF, they're ordering again? Lol :) the B

[AndyPandy068]

That's a might strange looking 'Destroyer' :E

[gr4techie]

At least the Japs have alot of carrier warfare experience from ww2 :)

If JSF ever materialises, will Lockheed Martin have servicing at Pearl Harbour? I heard the Japs can't miss it.

The streamers don't look very tactical and surely are a fod hazard.
http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/8/6/252064/default/v1/three-japan-warship-1-762x428.jpg



.

[500N]

Looks pretty good.

[500N]

Half way to being able to re create the Battle of Midway !

[SpazSinbad]

YouTube: Launch of JMSDF DDH183 Izumo

?????????"???"???????13/08/06? - YouTube

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewerAlbum/LaunchofJMSDFDDH183Izumo06aug2013screenie.png~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewerAlbum/LaunchofJMSDFDDH183Izumo06aug2013screenie.png.html)

[TBM-Legend]

Quick pilots man your SBD's!!!!!:eek:

[The Old Fat One]

Wrote about the Japanese "defence forces" for my masters dissertation...

Here's a few facts for you...

The Japanese are forbidden to have offensive armed forces in their constitution (which was written by the Americans after WW2)

Back in the mid nineties they had the second largest "defence" budget on the planet (after the US)

They had around 90 MPA (not sure what it is now, but more than us :{)

They have had the most modern SSK fleet on the planet (they keep circa 16 SSK and build news ones all the time, retiring the "old" to keep the number stable)

With the American's they have the best theatre missile defence (TMD) going (both land-based and shipborne).

I could go on, but you should be pretty jealous by now. If not how about another fact...non-military this time.

They have zero immigration.

[c-bert]

Half way to being able to re create the Battle of Midway !

So that would be midway, to Midway then? :hmm:

[500N]

That's almost as bad as my RSCPA have gone to the dogs line the other day !!!

[Wensleydale]

"Atora, Atora, Atora" was a Japanese attack on a suet factory. :\

[Heathrow Harry]

these "helicopter destroyers" aren't new - they have a couple in service already - but the new ones are bigger

[BBadanov]

TV news described it as a "flat top destroyer".

Evidently not as big as a "through deck cruiser" !! :bored:

[ORAC]

these "helicopter destroyers" aren't new - they have a couple in service already - but the new ones are bigger Indeed, mentioned here in 2009....... ;)

Japanese Through-Deck Cruisers (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/388026-japanese-through-deck-cruisers.html)

[Yamagata ken]

Old Fat One
They have zero immigration.
I resemble that! I've migrated here and I like it very much. Especially the pluralist democracy ruled by law bit. Add to that schools where they teach good behaviour as well as factual stuff. And a national health system with modern and clean hospitals, and helpful staff. And you can drink water from the tap, the trains run on time and public infrastructure is constantly being maintained/upgraded. And our rivers are pristine and jumping with fish. And I'm surrounded by mountains and get to ski on fresh snow every day. Apart from that, its just like living in the UK. Except we never bother to lock the front door as there's no crime here.

[Thomas coupling]

Errrm:
Apart from the fact that they do not allow major aspects of WWII to be taught to their young. Young and middle aged Japanese don't know what the Japs did during WWII.
They deny (even to this day) that they raped, pillaged and killed 15 million Chinese in the thirties.
That 75% of their previous Nuclear Reactors were not even at EU safety standards,
That they are in zero or negative growth for the last 20+ yrs.
That they have recently (2013) introduced the biggest QE campaign in the world to salvage their economy.
That they are broke!

Enjoy.......

[500N]

"TV news described it as a "flat top destroyer".

Evidently not as big as a "through deck cruiser" !! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gif"


So as not to offend the neighbours as the name Aircraft carrier would :O

[Yamagata ken]

Thomas Coupling. Japan is a pluralist democracy ruled by law. China is a Communist/One Party state ruled by The Party. You prefer China's version of history, and the One Party's opinion about teaching of Japanese history in Japan. Willful ignorance is your prerogative. I just checked the calendar: it reads 2013, not 1942.

[Genstabler]

Stop it children!

[Thomas coupling]

Yamagata:

Lest you forget..........

http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/NMNJ.html

and

BBC News - What Japanese history lessons leave out (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068)

A charming race....don't you think?

[SpazSinbad]

Much more to this longish article at the JUMP:

The Day When Japan Has A True Aircraft Carrier 21 Aug 2013 Hiraku Katsuyama
(SEKAI NO KANSEN (JAPAN) 01 SEP 13) Hiraku Katsuyama is former admiral and Japan Maritime Self-Defense fleet commander.
"...Possibilities for the 22DDH Light Aircraft Carrier
It is still assuming a lot that Japan will acquire a fifth-generation V/STOL fighter plane (from here, generally understood to mean the F-35B), but I will discuss the developmental possibilities for the 22DDH helicopter carrier with this assumption.

1. Putting the F-35B Into Operation Without Remodeling [the 22DDH]
The 22DDH would be able to serve as a takeoff and landing, as well as a holding, vessel for the F-35B. As for the number of planes, in addition to pilot rescue helicopters and a V/STOL AEW aircraft, and considering the placement of the aircraft moorings and the necessary work space, it is thought a 22DDH could hold ten or so F-35Bs.

The problem is the payload for the planes on board. In the case of aircraft operations with the 22DDH, compared with a large aircraft carrier or a light aircraft carrier equipped with a ski jump ramp and landing equipment (arresting gear), the 22DDH would be fairly constrained as far as its combat radius and the number of missiles it could carry. However, since these constraints could be mitigated by advancing close to the area of operations so that the planes could be utilized, even though the number of planes would be limited, if a high-performance fifth-generation fighter plane like the F-35B is part of the equation, the 22DDH could play a substantial and active role.

2. Equipping a Ski Jump Ramp
A 22DDH could be equipped with a simple-type ski jump ramp. One way would be to attach a truss-structure ski jump ramp near the bow of the vessel. Even though this would include reinforcing the ship’s hull, attaching a ramp would require relatively little construction work, time, and cost.

However, in this case, to ensure an adequate length of the runway for takeoffs, the standby area for the next plane to takeoff will have to be limited, which would lengthen the intervals between takeoffs. Moreover, since a ski jump at the ship’s bow will create air turbulence, the direction the vessel can take during landings will be constrained.

A truss-type ski jump ramp would be made on land in advance, requiring several months for the construction and attachment and costing under 100 million yen. (The construction period and costs are estimates taking into consideration the relationship with the ship’s hull; further research needs to be done on matters, such as the adding of ballast, related to maintaining the ship’s performance. The same holds for the option described below.)

One other option is to build a full-fledged ski jump ramp within the bow. In this case, the 22DDH would be able to carry out flight operations as a light aircraft carrier....

...even if the 22DDH is commissioned into service in line with the current plan, it could still serve as a takeoff and landing and holding vessel for V/STOL fighter aircraft. In order for Japan to prepare itself to be able to deter and prevent independently attacks on the Nansei Islands, particularly the Senkaku, Miyako, and Yaeyama islands, adding the F-35B operational capability to a 22DDH-class vessel is very meaningful. Moreover, it is also possible...."
The Day When Japan Has A True Aircraft Carrier - Association of Naval Aviation in Virginia Beach, Virginia - Hampton Roads Squadron (http://hrana.org/articles/2013/08/the-day-when-japan-has-a-true-aircraft-carrier/)

[Whenurhappy]

OFO,

If I recall correctly, the US has leant heavily on Japan post '9/11' to reform their constitution, especially with respect to the deployment of the JSDF, hence why they had troops in Iraq and Afghanistan (albeit in 'reconstruction' roles). Furthermore, the US 'assisted' the JSDF to become much more multilateral in the maritime security field by getting their ships and MPA to participate in high seas MIO against vessels beleived to be carrying WMD precurser material, under the legally dubious 'Proliferation Security Initiative'.

Other countries in the Pacific Rim still feel rather uncomfortable about the overt military growth of Japan, beyond what are clearly self-defence means. I also recall a Dan Pletch lecture at RUSI where he asserted that Japan could be the next nuclear power - it has all the pieces, including launch bodies and fissile material (the latter heavily controlled and not reprocessed in Japan...but guess where?) - and more importantly, it has the perceived defensive need - DPRK and China providing two prescient reasons. Obviously there is an enormous (and possibly insurmountable) historical legacy associated with nuclear weapons, but the strategic leverage that the US and Japan could assert on China if Japan had an 'independent' capability would be enormous, akin to the Soviet Union placing weapons systems in Cuba...


...mind you, that didn't quite work out as intended!

[500N]

Whenurhappy

I think people have got to move on from 1945 and realise we are in a different era
now. No countries or it's people are the same as they were back then.

Yes, some might feel uncomfortable but some might say the same
about Germany and Italy !

[West Coast]

No kidding 500. Not saying forget the past, but that was a lifetime ago.

[Dan Winterland]

Why only 14 helos? Because they need the space for 24 F35s!

[chopper2004]

A good bedtime read is Tom Clancy's Debt of Honour :) w.r.t Whenurhappy's point below :)

So 14 x SH-60J or include some of their mine hunting Merlins as well?



Cheers

[oldgrubber]

Not worth a separate thread just yet but the Indians have launched their indigenous aircraft carrier earlier this month too.
All ski ramped and ready to be fitted out; nice!
China won't be happy according to this article. No kidding.

'India's indigenous aircraft carrier a threat to China' - Economic Times (http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-08-21/news/41433192_1_aircraft-carrier-global-times-launch)

Better pictures here

Indian aircraft carrier: with first home-built aircraft, nation joins U.S., France, Russia and Britain in elite naval group | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2390112/Indian-aircraft-carrier-home-built-aircraft-nation-joins-U-S--France-Russia-Britain-elite-naval-group.html)

Cheers now

[busdriver02]

I've worked with multiple JSDF officers and they are so far from the bat**** crazy WW2 officers of story that it's almost funny. The internal strife within their own culture/government wrt to a re-emergent military leads me to believe that it wouldn't be a problem.

[ORAC]

What a surprise.... not.

Making Izumo an aircraft carrier would boost alliance (http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0004148553)

Japan said to be interested in acquiring F-35Bs (http://alert5.com/2017/12/26/japan-said-to-be-interested-in-acquiring-f-35bs/)

[Heathrow Harry]

I think if there is a worry about Japan its their potential. Vv rich, cutting edge technology etc means they could become a very serious military player quite quickly
But there is zero support for such a path...

Maybe in 150 years...

[Buster Hyman]

The Chinese love the idea...not!

China warns Japan on F-35B Izumo helicopter carriers plan (http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/china-upset-at-japans-plan-to-buy-f35b-stealth-fighter-jump-jets-for-its-helicopter-carriers/news-story/2a4e34b4ff6329661d8aa9f0ddb7f671)

[George K Lee]

From ORAC's second link:

The Japan Self-Defense Force is barred from deploying military aircraft to Shimochijima airport, which has the longest runway in the Ryukyu Islands. Therefore, defense officials are thinking of using the F-35B at airports with shorter runways.

Pity that nobody makes a much less expensive fighter that can fly on and off a 1500-2000 meter runway all day long without breaking a sweat. Wait, what?

Otherwise, Izumo's size will limit its ability to support a large and complex (F-4-sized) aircraft, irrespective of how it takes off and lands.

[Heathrow Harry]

wher's Ed Heinemann when you need him??

[PDR1]

A good bedtime read is Tom Clancy's Debt of Honour :)

Well yes, but it helps to remember that it's a work of fiction. Like Trump's manifesto, but with even more extreme racism.

PDR

[sandiego89]

Well yes, but it helps to remember that it's a work of fiction. Like Trump's manifesto, but with even more extreme racism.

PDR


Wow, what a political zinger- and only 4 years after the post.....I believe we all know Clancy is in the fiction section....


Meanwhile getting back to the Izumo, I do note that her aft elevator is around 20x30 meters from this source: https://www.rina.org.uk/Izumo_class_far_from_carriers_in_the_fullest_sense.html
just about right for a F-35B.....lucky coincidence;)

[ORAC]

You know, for two nations that, historically, hate each others guts - this is a hell of a coincidence. The enemy of my enemy is my friend....

South Korea, Japan Mull F-35Bs for Amphibious Assault Ships (https://www.military.com/defensetech/2017/12/26/south-korea-japan-mull-f-35bs-amphibious-assault-ships.html?utm_source=RC+Defense+Morning+Recon&utm_campaign=dd1bbb8621-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_12_26&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_694f73a8dc-dd1bbb8621-85340453)

South Korea's navy is looking to buy stealthy F-35B aircraft, the Marine Corps jump-jet variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, for its new Dokdo-class amphibious assault ships. Citing military sources, South Korea's Yonhap news agency said the Lockheed Martin Corp.-made short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35Bs would be part of South Korea's long-term plan to build a "blue water" navy.

South Korea currently has one amphibious assault ship, the 14,300-ton, 653-foot Dokdo, which is the largest ship in the South Korean navy. A second Dokdo-class amphib is planned for 2020. "I understand that the military top brass have recently discussed whether they can introduce a small number of F-35B fighters and operate them aboard the new ship that has already been deployed and one to be additionally built," a military source told Yonhap....

The problem for South Korea and Japan will be in redesigning the decks of the amphibs to take the heat and stress of the F-35B vertical landings. The Dokdo class ships now are configured to support 10 helicopters. "Considerations will continue about whether we can run F-35Bs by redesigning the decks of the Dokdo and the new ship that is being constructed," a second military source told Yonhap.

In 2014, South Korea agreed to buy 40 conventional landing and takeoff F-35A fighters, the Air Force variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, for deployment from 2018 through 2021 at a cost of $6.75 billion. The F-35B is the Marine Corps' variant and the F-35C is the Navy's......

[George K Lee]

OK. Now someone's really deep into the magic mushroom stash.

Dokdo is substantially smaller than the Invincibles and has a well deck that can take two LCACs and consequently occupies a large slab of the hull. It's designed for ten SH-60-class helicopters, each of which at a rough guess takes up much less than a quarter of the deck space of an F-35B and accommodates less than a quarter as much fuel. Other than rounds for the Goalkeeper and RAM, the only other ordnance it carries would seem to be lightweight torpedoes and small ASMs like Sea Skuas.

Again, folks, the F-35B is the size of an F-4.

[sandiego89]

OK. Now someone's really deep into the magic mushroom stash.

Dokdo is substantially smaller than the Invincibles and has a well deck that can take two LCACs and consequently occupies a large slab of the hull. It's designed for ten SH-60-class helicopters, each of which at a rough guess takes up much less than a quarter of the deck space of an F-35B and accommodates less than a quarter as much fuel. Other than rounds for the Goalkeeper and RAM, the only other ordnance it carries would seem to be lightweight torpedoes and small ASMs like Sea Skuas.

Again, folks, the F-35B is the size of an F-4.


She's not that much smaller that the Invincibles (by about 45 feet and perhaps 10% in tonnage), and Harriers/SeaHarriers have operated from even smaller ships with Spain, USA, Thailand and Italy. Yes, I do understand the Harrier is a smaller aircraft).


The Dokdo has elevators that can fit the F-35- another coincidence like the Japanese carrie...I mean destroyer?


While she is definitely primarily an amphib, and while she would not be able to employ a large airwing for simultaneous CAP, strike etc, she could employ a handful of B's. Not as a true blue water carrier, but perhaps as the perfect middle finger "carrier" that would be prominently aimed directly at a few neighbors I can think of....

[ORAC]

Perfect for “hack the shad” if placed up threat. Sort of role the “through-deck cruiser” was supposedly designed for.....

[Engines]

May I be allowed a couple of observations that might help this thread along?

First, the RN's 'through deck cruisers' (the 'Invincible' class) were most definitely not designed to go upthreat and 'hack the shad'. (That task appeared in the mid 70s as the reality of the RAF's inability to provide meaningful air cover over the Fleet became apparent, plus the new threats posed by Soviet missiles that could be targeted by 'Bear' shadowers). The CVS design, aimed at providing an ASW command vessel with 8 or 9 Sea Kings embarked, was hastily (and fairly late on) modified to include lifts large enough take a Harrier. The original lifts were long and narrow in size to handle a folded helicopter., From that time on, Sea Harrier ops from the ships demanded a continuous process of 'make do and mend' to make it work. The Falklands showed what could be achieved from very basic beginnings.

Which, I think, brings us to what the F-35B might or might not be able to do from smaller ships. The F-35B was specifically and deliberately designed to be able to operate, and be supported from, a USN 'Wasp' class LHD. These have a displacement of just over 40,000 tons, decks about 840 ft long, just over 100 ft wide. But no ski jump.

The B was also required to be able to launch from an 'Invincible' class deck and ski jump. Flight deck was about 600 ft long.

Izumo has a lower displacement (27,000 tons), but a comparable deck size to the LHD (814 ft long, 125 ft across). Again, no ski jump (yet). At a guess (yes, just a guess), her lower tonnage is because she doesn't have a well deck and all the amphibious assault stuff.

Dokdo is smaller still. 18,800 tons displacement, 650 ft long, 102 ft wide.

The RAN's Canberra class are in the middle of the pack - 30,000 tons, 760 ft long, 102 ft wide. They already have a ski jump

Warning - opinions here. I'd think that very useful F-35B operations could be conducted from Izumo (with a ski jump) or Canberra. Dokdo looks extremely small, but if all they want to do is 'lily pad' a few F-35Bs up threat, then a ski jump might make it happen. Tight, but possibly achievable, with a bit of determination and old fashioned ingenuity.

A bit like Sea Harrier operations from the 'through deck cruisers'.

Oh, and I think the F-4/F-35B size comparison goes like this:

F-4: Length 58 ft, span 38 ft, weight 61,800 lb
F-35B: Length 50 ft, span 35 ft, weight 60,000 lb.

I do think that the F-35B's a little smaller than an F-4, but weighs about the same. But it doesn't need cats and traps.

Hope this helps a little,

Best regards as ever to all those looking to put aircraft on ships,

Engines

[George K Lee]

You could certainly operate a few F-35Bs from Izumo although it would probably take some modifications. How many is a matter of the capacity to sustain operations - and as always, the next question is whether there are better ways to meet the need, or better ways to spend the money given 2 x B ≈ 3 x A.

I incline to the view that much of this is still in the realm of think-tank and defense-planner noodling combined with STOVL-enthusiast wishful thinking, amplified by the politically exciting idea of the JMSDF getting carriers and the predictable ROK #UsToo reaction thereto.

[Just This Once...]

... were most definitely not designed to go upthreat and 'hack the shad'. (That task appeared in the mid 70s as the reality of the RAF's inability to provide meaningful air cover over the Fleet became apparent,

One would hope the RN would have noticed the absence of an RAF air defence aircraft that could cover the Atlantic, or that no such aircraft has ever existed in any air arm.

I would be surprised if anyone in the RN was daft enough to walk over to any NATO airforce with a requirement for persistent, land-based, long-range fleet air defence. I would be astonished if the RN got as far as penning a requirement, let alone expecting the RAF to arrive.

The absolute reluctance to fully acknowledge, equip and train for realistic air threats explains the poor capability; it has nothing to do with expecting the RAF to arrive with a bag of miracles.

[Heathrow Harry]

There is an indepth view of the Hyuga class in Seaforth World Naval Review 2014

One thing that struck me was that they have significant capability other than just carrying helicopters - with 16 surface to surface missiles, 12 ASROC, 6 torpedo tubes and 2 Phalanx as well as a locally developed multi-function radar system that looks like a Junior Aegis.

The Izumas look generally similar to the Cavour - so a small air group of F-35's is quite possible

Also interesting that thee japanese navy has similar manning issues as the RN

[Just This Once...]

According to the Japanese media the refit of Izumo to enable F-35B will cost them around £375M. For that they get a new deck layout with more heat resistance, hangar modifications and a big change to magazines and aviation fuel storage; the rest is being spent on F-35 IT support system.

A quick third of a billion is quite a chunk of change.

[Heathrow Harry]

yeah but they can probably do it on time and on cost whereas others................

[George K Lee]

$500m is a fair sum. Plus, realistically, if you want even 10 jets on the boat you need to buy 25 F-35Bs, which is close to $3.5 billion even at US budget weapon system cost.

[ORAC]

MSDF helicopter flattop Izumo designed as aircraft carrier (http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201802230054.html)

Despite the Defense Ministry's denial that the helicopter carrier Izumo, launched in 2015, was planned to be refitted into an aircraft carrier, former Maritime Self-Defense Force executives confirmed that that is how the blueprints were drawn up. “It is only reasonable to design (the Izumo) with the prospect of possible changes of the circumstances in the decades ahead,” a then MSDF executive told The Asahi Shimbun. “We viewed that whether the Izumo should be actually refitted could be decided by the government.”

The former executive said a consensus was reached privately among the MSDF that the Izumo should be considered for conversion into an aircraft carrier. But the MSDF couldn't explain the need publicly due to the government's view that aircraft carriers capable of launching large-scale attacks are equivalent to the military capability prohibited by the war-renouncing Article 9 of the Constitution.

Ever since the Izumo's construction, experts both in and outside Japan have pointed out the possibility of turning it into a full-fledged aircraft carrier. However, the Defense Ministry publicly denied any plan to deploy fighter jets with strike capabilities on the Izumo and contended that it was not an aircraft carrier. The ministry has since done an abrupt about-face and now is mulling the possibility of refitting the vessel into an aircraft carrier. Such a reversal has inevitably raised suspicions that the ministry had this plan in mind from the beginning.

Refitting the Izumo, the Maritime Self-Defense Force's largest vessel, into an aircraft carrier had been considered since late 2000 to bolster the nation's defenses against China’s increasing maritime advances around Japan’s southwestern islands, according to the MSDF executives.......

In 2008, Chinese naval vessels and other warships passing through the waters between the main Okinawa island and Miyakojima island, which lies to the southwest, were spotted for the first time. At that time Chinese government vessels intruding on Japan’s territorial waters became common. According to MSDF executives at that time, the MSDF saw the need to secure Japan’s competitive edge in the airspace to counter possible China’s maritime expansion in the East China Sea.

However, the runway at the Air Self-Defense Force Naha Base is the only one that allows ASDF aircraft to take off and land in and around Okinawa. Therefore “the plan to construct the Izumo was settled with its future conversion in mind to prepare for any possible contingency of the unavailability of the ASDF Naha Base,” according to one of the executives. In those days, the U.S. F-35B stealth fighters, which could take off and land vertically, were in development, leading to a design conception of the Izumo on the premise that it could be converted to handle landings and takeoffs of the F-35B and other aircraft, such as the Osprey transport aircraft.

The approximately 250-meter long Izumo’s elevator connecting the deck with the hangar was designed to accommodate the F-35B fighter, which measures about 15 meters in length and about 11 meters in width. Paint that can withstand the exhaust heat generated from F-35 fighter jets during landings and takeoffs was selected for the deck of the Izumo. It has also been expected to retrofit the Izumo with a sloping deck for takeoffs, the former MSDF executives said.

If the Izumo is converted to enable landings and takeoffs of the F-35B, the vessel can be utilized to refuel U.S. stealth fighter jets anywhere in the world at any time, including during military emergencies under the new national security legislation. Even if it is designated a “defensive” aircraft carrier or with some other terminology, the refitted Izumo would be a vessel capable of attacking enemy targets.

[jolihokistix]

Perhaps that partly explains why Japan have just ordered 20 more F-35(A)s.
https://japantoday.com/category/national/Japan-to-buy-at-least-20-more-F-35A-stealth-fighters

[Heathrow Harry]

"It is only reasonable to design (the Izumo) with the prospect of possible changes of the circumstances in the decades ahead,"

Boy can we hire some of those guys??? Looking decades ahead........... would bring about panic & melt-down in Whitehall.............

[jolihokistix]

In the UK we do not have China, Russia and North Korea flexing their muscles right on our doorstep, though Russia does play the same game at either end.

[Frostchamber]

I'm reminded that in the early 2000s it was announced with some fanfare that the UK had decided to pay extra to pursue a flexible design for what was then CVF, so that the carrier could be converted to cats and traps if needed. I think we all remember how that turned out - it seems no-one thought to write into the contract what that actually meant.

I can't imagine the Japanese ballsing things up in quite the same way, and anyway they're not talking about converting it to CTOL...

[Cazalet33]

It is to be hoped that some Japanese Admiral on one of these damned things, after some more ill-considered exuberance, doesn't ruefully rub his chin in a decade or three and say something to the effect of: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

It won't be the tired old clapped out American Empire that he'll be talking about, but instead a youthful vigorous independent nation which is already fed up with Japanese and American activites of yon ilk.

Let's hope, too, that the wretched Blaircraft carriers don't get sucked into such a geopolitical vortex and morass.

[Heathrow Harry]

N Korea??

China are the oldest nation in the world..............

[Heathrow Harry]

"I can't imagine the Japanese ballsing things up in quite the same way"

A quick look at the Japanese navy suggests they go for steady production rates, incremental advances and upgrades......... they try and avoid the "Great Leap Forward" type of purchase (Zumwalt anyone?) that occurs elsewhere

[jolihokistix]

Build your own. Chinese Zumwalt anyone?
https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=chinese+zumwalt&lr=lang_ja&hl=ja&tbs=lr:lang_1ja&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMt93PgcHZAhVLiLwKHQfCDtMQsAQIJg&biw=1366&bih=599

[Lonewolf_50]

Caz, not sure if you have kept up with current events for the past 30 years, but to describe China as "a sleeping giant" is to demonstrate a clear misunderstanding of their steady, growing presence as a world power.

[ORAC]

Japan ponders use of helicopter carrier for stealth fighters (http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201803030015.html)

Defense Minister Itsunori Onodera dropped a bombshell admission March 2 by saying he authorized studies into whether advanced F-35B stealth fighter jets can be deployed on the Maritime Self-Defense Force's Izumo helicopter carrier.

Such activity would fly in the face of war-renouncing Article 9 of the Constitution that prohibits Japan from maintaining more than the bare minimum to protect itself. Aware of the political ramifications of his comment in the Upper House Budget Committee session, Onodera added, "No decision has yet been made about whether the F-35B will actually be attached to the Izumo."

The Izumo is the largest vessel in the MSDF fleet and any move to refit it into an aircraft carrier would face an uproar from the opposition parties.

Akira Koike of the Japanese Communist Party called Onodera's comment "an important admission" in light of the government's past refusal to possess an aircraft carrier due to the nation's exclusively defensive posture. "But he (Onodera) is now saying consideration is being given to fundamentally change the posture of the nation," Koike said.

The U.S.-made F-35B is the most advanced stealth fighter jet and unlike the F-35A now used by the Air SDF, it can take off from a short runway and also land vertically like a helicopter.

In the Upper House Budget Committee session, Onodera said, "Regarding the Izumo, research has been conducted on which among the latest aircraft could possibly take off and land on it. The most representative aircraft is the F-35B. (The research) is intended to accumulate fundamental information regardless of the conclusion reached in the future." But he stopped short of stating whether the Constitution banned the possession of any aircraft carrier. He would only say "attack" aircraft carriers that had many aircraft capable of loads with extreme destructive power or anti-land attack capabilities would not be allowed.

[Heathrow Harry]

Hey! We could lend them our F-35B's - just as we're "helping" Qatar with Typhoons.................

[JPJP]

N Korea??

China are the oldest nation in the world..............

Don’t be ridiculous. He’s obviously referring to Stralia. :E

Paint that can withstand the exhaust heat generated from F-35 fighter jets during landings and takeoffs was selected for the deck of the Izumo

:D Genius. Who would ever underestimate the Japanese ........ again.

[Heathrow Harry]

yeah but they probably just went out and bought it - no 5 year in depth study of paint as opposed to wallpaper as opposed to mirror tiles..........................

[Cazalet33]

Izumo's Fleet visit to Pearl Harbor, replete with a deck-full of fighter-bombers and torpedo-carrying helicopters, will be an interesting photo-op!

[Davef68]

Izumo and Kaga are closer in size to the new Italian and Spanish (and Australian) 'carriers' than the Hyguas, but without the amphibious encumberances those have; and although about 10k tonnes smaller, their flight deck dimensions are not that different to the US America class, so she should be well able to operate F35s.

The lack of a ski jump could be easily dealt with on refit if felt required, as it was with Hermes and Vikrant in the early 80s

[Engines]

Just to note - the original ski-jump on 'Invincible' was fitted alongside in about 10 weeks, and didn't require a full refit. All depends on how big a jump and how far forward they want to install one, in my view. Invincible's first ramp was limited by the Seadart launcher located centreline forward - I can't see any obvious problem for 'Izumo' or 'Kaga', apart from a Phalanx CIWS located on the flight deck right forward starboard side.

Also worth noting that the maximum effective angle for a ski-jump with F-35B is less than that required for a Harrier, so the size of the ramp should be slightly smaller. Width required is about the same as for a Harrier.

Hope this helps,

Engines

[Davef68]

Just to note - the original ski-jump on 'Invincible' was fitted alongside in about 10 weeks, and didn't require a full refit.

I'd forgotten Invicible launched as a completely flat deck

http://www.gosportheritage.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/The-launch-of-HMS-Invincible-at-Vickers-Shipyard-Barrow-on-3rd-May-1977..jpg

[jolihokistix]

Looks quite similar.

[ORAC]

Cross post from the F35 thread to keep this one up to date.

LDP to propose introducing F-35B fighters (https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20180320_26/)

Japan's main governing Liberal Democratic Party plans to propose introducing F-35B fighter jets and a multi-purpose aircraft carrier to be operated under the country's defense-only stance.

The government is to review the National Defense Program Guidelines this year for the first time in 5 years. On Tuesday, the LDP panel on national security compiled a set of proposals to be considered. The panel stressed the need to enhance Japan's defense capabilities both in quality and quantity. It said North Korea's nuclear and missile development and China's military buildup and growing maritime presence are creating a security crisis.

The panel will call for procuring a multi-purpose aircraft carrier that can also serve as a hospital ship. It will be operated solely for defense purposes. Retrofitting of the Maritime Self-Defense Force's destroyer Izumo is to be listed as an option.

The panel also wants the Defense Ministry to acquire advanced F-35B stealth planes, which can take off from short runways. Panel chair Gen Nakatani suggested Japan must become able to hit back at enemy bases.

The LDP plans to submit the proposals to the government for discussion in late May.

[Heathrow Harry]

Great!! Someone to take over our order..................

[Navaleye]

I think there is a strong case for offering the PoW to the Japanese as a 'Training Carrier" while we build a new Catobar carrier in Rosyth as a replacement.

[Heathrow Harry]

better we give them the PoW and get them to build the new CATOBAR carrier...............

[Cazalet33]

Someone to take over our order

Can't we just sell them our Blaircraft carriers?

We don't need them and the money could be well spent on useful stuff like hospitals and schools and libraries and roads and stuff that makes our lives better, instead of making other peoples lives rotten.

[ORAC]

Peace dividends are wonderful - until you need to keep the peace.

[KenV]

We don't need them and the money could be well spent on useful stuff like hospitals and schools and libraries and roads and stuff that makes our lives better, instead of making other peoples lives rotten.And some people believe unicorns and garden faeries are real and the moon landings were a hoax. Good luck with that.

[Cazalet33]

Yamean: we could do moon landings and everyfink wiv our Blaircraft carriers?

Gahn! Ya kiddin'. Innya?

Thanks for the good wishes, though.

[West Coast]

We don't need them and the money could be well spent on useful stuff like hospitals and schools and libraries and roads and stuff that makes our lives better, instead of making other peoples lives rotten.

You could always emigrate to that utopia, where ever it might be.

[Heathrow Harry]

Germany, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Chile.....................

[glad rag]

I think there is a strong case for offering the PoW to the Japanese as a 'Training Carrier" while we build a new Catobar carrier in Rosyth as a replacement.


:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Buster Hyman]

PoW. An unfortunate acronym in a JDF thread.

(For those of you playing at home, it's the Prince of Wales!...took me a moment.)

[ORAC]

Not sure giving them the PoW would be politic, not after what they did to the last one.... (http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/the-sinking-of-the-prince-of-wales-and-repulse/).

[ORAC]

Need somebody who can read Japanese to gather any more details from the original article. Is “mother ship” a better euphemism than “through-deck cruiser”?

Alert 5 » Japan?s LDP is calling the proposed aircraft carrier as mother ship - Military Aviation News (http://alert5.com/2018/05/27/japans-ldp-is-calling-the-proposed-aircraft-carrier-as-mother-ship/)

Japan’s LDP is calling the proposed aircraft carrier as mother ship

Japan’s Liberal Democratic Party has unveiled its proposal for the country’s mid term defense plan. It urged the government to procure the F-35B and upgrade the Izumo-class to support the fighter.

Instead of calling the upgraded vessel an aircraft carrier, the party is now calling it a “multi-purpose mother ship”.

[typerated]

Wonder if they want a couple of bigger "mother ships"?
We could cut the middle man out and supply direct.
I'm sure they could get a decent price on a part delivered batch of 48 B models too.
Everyone would be a winner?

[Heathrow Harry]

Wonder if they want a couple of bigger "mother ships"?
We could cut the middle man out and supply direct.
I'm sure they could get a decent price on a part delivered batch of 48 B models too.
Everyone would be a winner?

Tsk tsk tsk!! :=:=

The heavy mob will be around shortly for daring to suggest we don't need several Carrier Battle Groups..................

[Whinging Tinny]

In Japanese an aircraft carrier is called 航空母艦 (Kōkū bokan) which translates as aviation mother ship or 空母 (Kūbo) which is basically sky/air mother.

[ORAC]

Japan avoids flak by refusing to call flattop ?aircraft carrier??The Asahi Shimbun (http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201812060055.html)

Japan avoids flak by refusing to call flattop ‘aircraft carrier’

Although a Japanese naval vessel may be retrofitted to carry fighter jets, the ruling parties will call the Izumo a "multi-purpose operation destroyer" to avoid criticism that use as an aircraft carrier would violate the pacifist Constitution. Members of the ruling parties’ working team on revising the National Defense Program Guidelines, which the government expects to approve later this month, reached a consensus on what to call the Izumo-class destroyers during a meeting on Dec. 5.

The Abe administration has been considering retrofitting the Maritime Self-Defense Force's Izumo into an effective aircraft carrier that can deploy U.S.-made F-35B stealth fighter jets, which can take off and land vertically. However, an issue on how to maintain compatibility of the use with the war-renouncing Article 9 of the Constitution will likely remain a problem with the Izumo becoming a de facto offensive aircraft carrier, the first in the Japanese fleet. The 248-meter-long vessel would be reliant on its complement of F-35Bs, resulting in exceeding the defensive nature as specified in the Constitution.

In the meeting, Defense Ministry officials explained the plan of thickening the decks of two Izumo-class destroyers, which carry helicopters, and making other adjustments so that F-35Bs can be launched from there, according to a source who attended the meeting. The government has taken a stance that Japan is not allowed to operate an attack aircraft carrier, which would mark a departure from the principle that the nation should be limited to maintaining necessary self-defense capabilities. Lawmakers therefore discussed an official name of the new carrier in keeping in line with the Constitution.

A proposal to call the vessel a “defensive aircraft carrier” also emerged from the Liberal Democratic Party but Komeito, the ruling LDP's junior coalition partner, opposed the idea, arguing that using the term of “aircraft carrier” is unacceptable. The LDP’s proposal for the National Defense Program Guidelines compiled in May features a term of “multi-purpose operation mother ship.” However, Komeito frowned on the idea, saying that the expression of “bokan" (mother ship) conjures up the image of “kubo" (aircraft carrier). The LDP and Komeito finally agreed on calling the Izumo-class destroyer a “multi-purpose operation destroyer,” according to participants at the meeting.

“(The LDP and Komeito) shared a common view of enabling the carrier to be used for multi-purpose operations within the scope of recognizing the vessel as a destroyer,” said Itsunori Onodera, a former defense minister who heads the ruling parties' working group dealing with the guideline revisions, after the meeting.

The two parties also shared their views and opinions over the need to introduce 100 or so F-35s in the future during the meeting. Approximately 40 of the fighters are expected to be models that can take off from short distances, with an eye to operating them off the deck of the retrofitted Izumo........

[Asturias56]

Buying 24 - 36 F-35B's and landing them on an "Izumo"as a part of the deal wouldn't really affect Japan's overall F-35 capability but would add some expensive headaches for the PLAN

[stilton]

Fine looking ship !

[Bing]

Japan avoids flak by refusing to call flattop ‘aircraft carrier’


Did no one suggest Through Deck Cruiser?

[Davef68]

Did no one suggest Through Deck Cruiser?

They probably can't have cruisers either!

[ORAC]

New Attack Helicopters For Japan Probably Will Go To Sea | Vertical Flight content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/vertical-flight/new-attack-helicopters-japan-probably-will-go-sea)

New Attack Helicopters For Japan Probably Will Go To Sea

Japan’s prospective requirement for its New Attack Helicopter is likely to include shipboard operation and entry into service no later than the mid-2020s. Six companies are preparing to bid with widely varied offerings when a formal requirement is issued: Airbus (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=33990), Bell, Boeing (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=12083), Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI), Leonardo and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=34454) (MHI).

At this early stage, the defense ministry merely has sought information for a possible acquisition for 30-50 attack helicopters to replace 59 Bell AH-1S Cobras. They are survivors of 90 built by Fuji Heavy Industries, now Subaru, in 1979-2000. The prospective production figure, in-service date in the mid-2020s and need for operation at sea were in a request for information issued in May, industry sources say.

A key consideration for the ministry is the need to reinforce or recover conquered remote islands in the chain that stretches southwest toward China.

KHI wants to base an offering on the twin-engine OH-1 observation helicopter, industry sources say. KHI needs a new engine as the poor reliability of the current 660-kW (885-hp) MHI TS1-M-10 has caused the OH-1 to be grounded since August 2015, according to local media and industry sources. Honeywell (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=22311) tells the Nikkei newspaper it is working with KHI to improve the OH-1’s engine. This appears to be an elliptical way of saying the two companies will replace it, since MHI would be the company to cooperate with Honeywell on improving the TS1-M-10.......

MHI could propose the Sikorsky UH-60 (http://awin.aviationweek.com/ProgramProfileDetails.aspx?pgId=617&pgName=Sikorsky+MH-60%2fUH-60) in a heavy-armament derivative that the U.S. company is supplying to the United Arab Emirates. MHI displayed a model of the concept, with a long stub wing on each side of the upper fuselage. The UH-60 in this configuration can still carry soldiers. An MHI official at the show said this capability could be useful for securing ground.

The two U.S. contenders are each offering their current production attack helicopters: the Bell AH-1Z (http://awin.aviationweek.com/ProgramProfileDetails.aspx?pgId=1102&pgName=Bell+AH-1Z) Viper, unrelated to the AH-1S except in name and appearance; and the Boeing AH-64 Apache.

Depending on how serious Japan is about shipboard operation, the Viper, designed for the U.S. Marine Corps (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=23395), may have a strong advantage. The design resists corrosion and has radiation hardening to protect systems from powerful naval radars, notes Bell’s John Woodberry. Those features will be less valuable if Japan wants to send the new helicopters to sea only occasionally and briefly.......

Leonardo’s offering would be the new AW249, which has been under development for the Italian Army since 2016. Full operational capability for the 7–8-metric-ton aircraft is due in 2025, implying entry into service around 2022 or 2023. That program timing looks about right for Japan. Leonardo is designing the AW249 so customers can adapt it for other operations, says the head of the company’s Japanese business, Andrew Hill. Japan’s expected shipboard operation will require some maritime features........

[jolihokistix]

Always remembering that she was designed as a helicopter-carrying submarine destroyer.
If that concept is to continue on through, such new helicopters should be described as having a search and destroy role, avoiding use of the politically inflammatory attack word. :oh:

[NWSRG]

I wonder if this order for F35s puts an end to the suggestion of an F22/F35 hybrid for the JASDF?

[ORAC]

Defense Ministry OKs purchase of next-generation U.S. fighter jets?The Asahi Shimbun (http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201908170019.html)

Defense Ministry OKs purchase of next-generation U.S. fighter jets

The Defense Ministry on Aug. 16 formally approved the purchase of 42 F-35B stealth fighter jets from the United States at a cost of about 14 billion yen ($132 million) each.

The government indicated late last year that it intended to acquire the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft, but no formal decision had been made until now about which model to purchase........

The Defense Ministry received a proposal from the U.S. government about the F-35B in June that confirmed the aircraft met all the specifications Japan is interested in. Budgetary amounts will be set aside for 18 of the jets through the end of fiscal 2023. As yet, there are no specific plans for the payment of the remaining 24 jets.

Defense Ministry officials said the STOVL aircraft would be able to land and depart from even short runways. Plans are in the works to refit two Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyers to allow the aircraft to be used on those ships.

[Asturias56]

The Japanese navy advances in small steps - you can see this here - buy 18 , try them out and then maybe buy another 24................

[sandiego89]

Interesting that they seemed to have backed away from final assembly. Although they will be heavily involved in upgrades and maintenance, Japan had always wanted to keep involved in production to keep a small base of talent going in country.

Imagine they have been following the US Marine B's at Okinawa with keen interest.

[ORAC]

U.S. fighter jets eyed as 1st users of retrofitted Izumo carrier?The Asahi Shimbun (http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201908210022.html)

U.S. fighter jets eyed as 1st users of retrofitted Izumo carrier

The government has been caught in a lie over its plans to retrofit the Izumo destroyer and effectively transform the vessel into an aircraft carrier.

Officials initially presented the project as simply one that would strengthen the nation's ability to defend outlying islands and secure the safety of Self-Defense Force pilots by reducing their flight times. When Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya was asked by opposition lawmakers in March if U.S. fighter jets would be allowed to use the Izumo, he stated that only if the aircraft had no closer landing points while flying out at sea.

It now turns out that Japanese officials then informed their U.S. counterparts that U.S. fighter jets would likely be the first to use the Izumo for landings and take-offs.

Improvements to the Izumo deck and other measures to allow aircraft to land and take off from the ship will finish in fiscal 2020. Another MSDF destroyer, the Kaga, will also be retrofitted, with plans calling for completion in fiscal 2022. The government has also approved a plan to purchase U.S.-made F-35B fighter jets which have short take-off and vertical landing capabilities. The F-35B jets will be mainly used on the Izumo and Kaga, but the aircraft will not be deployed until after fiscal 2024. That leaves open the possibility of at least a three-year period when the Izumo would be capable of being used as an aircraft carrier, but with the Air SDF having no such aircraft in its arsenal.

According to several government sources, when Gen. Robert Neller, who was then commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, visited Japan in March, Defense Ministry officials briefed him on the plans to retrofit the Izumo and said U.S. military F-35B jets would likely be the first to use the Izumo after it became a flattop. They asked for U.S. cooperation and advice in the operation of the F-35B jets. The U.S. jets would likely use the Izumo during joint training exercises with the SDF as well as when U.S. jets faced an emergency situation requiring immediate landing. The sources said that Neller promised to provide the necessary support........

[Asturias56]

Is this really news? Did ANYONE not think the USA would trial F-35B's on these " slightly converted, modestly upgraded cross-river ferries"

[ORAC]

Japan unveils plan to develop Mage Island into FCLP for CVW 5 and JSDF F-35Bs ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2020/08/08/japan-unveils-plan-to-develop-mage-island-into-fclp-for-cvw-5-and-jsdf-f-35bs/)

Japan unveils plan to develop Mage Island into FCLP for CVW 5 and JSDF F-35Bs

The Japanese government has unveiled its plan on how to develop Mage Island, off Kagoshima Prefecture, into a Field Carrier Landing Practice (FCLP) facility for Carrier Air Wing 5 (CVW 5) of the U.S. Navy and Japanese F-35Bs.

Tokyo will pay $151 million to the owner of the island and an environment impact assessment will be carried out this fall.

There will be two runways, a hangar, and a fuel facility at the base. The main runway is about 8,00 feet long, and the secondary is about 6,000 feet long. About 150 to 200 Self Defense Force personnel are to be stationed there. Construction will take 4 years.

The base will be resupplied by JGSDF MV-22s.

Currently, U.S. Navy pilots practise simulated aircraft carrier landings at the FCLP at Iwo Jima, which is 1,400km from their base in MCAS Iwakuni. The new FCLP at Mage will be cut the distance down to 400km.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x341/image_794140542e0b3d3bf41ae3170347f3a085f1d630.jpeg

[ORAC]

https://x.com/alexluck9/status/1724025550497562967?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


JS Kaga hip to be square on sea trial after her modification to support JMSDF carrier aviation F-35B operations.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/964x681/image_10579e28cc210022788cf01d5b4c7f33cf10be2b.jpeg
​​​​​​​

[ORAC]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/12/japan-puts-helicopter-carrier-kaga-on-sea-trials-after-major-modifications-to-operate-the-f-35b-fighter-jets/

Japan Puts Helicopter Carrier Kaga On Sea Trials After Major Modifications To Operate The F-35B Fighter Jets

[ORAC]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/eye-on-china-japan-launches-first-full-aircraft-carrier-since-wwii/articleshow/109202607.cms

Eye on China: Japan launches first full aircraft carrier since WWII

Japan has achieved a noteworthy milestone in its military modernization efforts by converting the warship Kaga into the country's inaugural full-fledged aircraft carrier since World War II.

Previously designated as a helicopter carrier, the Kaga has undergone substantial enhancements to accommodate the deployment of the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter, signaling a transformative phase in Japan's defense capabilities amid escalating regional tensions.

The unveiling of the upgraded Kaga at the Kure naval base in Hiroshima signifies Japan's efforts to enhance its maritime strength……

https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/defense-security/20240409-179549/

New Deck Unveiled on MSDF Helicopter Carrier Kaga; Modification Will Let Fighter Jets Take Off

The Maritime Self-Defense Force showed the multi-role helicopter carrier Kaga to the press on Monday at its Kure Base in Kure, Hiroshima Prefecture, after first-stage modification work to make it capable of accommodating fixed-wing fighter jets was completed.

The modification is to make the helicopter carrier also capable of operating as a de facto aircraft carrier.….

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/901x1200/image_8a715d60bef17d4ce7d707e9bdab83d659a48ea7.jpeg

[Ninthace]

No ski jump? What are the implications of that in terms of performance of the F-35B?

[Asturias56]

The back end is covered in JATO bottles..................

[downsizer]

No ski jump? What are the implications of that in terms of performance of the F-35B?

Doesn't seem to concern the USMC.

[Ninthace]

Doesn't seem to concern the USMC.
Are lengths of the take off run comparable? I am assuming STOL rather than VTOL

[SpazSinbad]

Are lengths of the take off run comparable? I am assuming STOL rather than VTOL
I'll have to find the quote about STO mit JumpDeSki compared to flat deck but meanwhile SAR KPP flat deck info:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1542x1068/f_35bflatdeckkppsdec2017sar_f6c81f0f1ac85e4e710a7ada05f804d3 c40a23d5.gif

[SpazSinbad]

Some info about F-35B STOs from a FLAT DECK or a Ski Jump.
JSF programme to proceed with UK-specific land-based carrier trials Gareth Jennings 09 Jul 2012 http://www.janes.com/events/exhibitions/farnborough-2012/news/july-10/JSF-programme-proceed.aspx
"...Wilson said the advantage of the 'ski jump' launch method is in the extra time it gives the pilot on take-off. "The real benefit is one of timing. Once airborne you are flying upwards rather than horizontal, and this gives you extra time to think if something should go wrong," he explained. In addition, Wilson noted that the 'ski jump' saves approximately 100 to 150 ft of deck run over the standard 'flat top' carrier deck. "Everything we have seen in modelling is that [the 'ski jump'] is the best way to get this aircraft airborne," he said...."
______________

[b]Blue Sky OPS 26 April 2012 AIR International F-35 Lightning II http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=28256
"Mark Ayton spoke with Peter Wilson, a former Royal Navy Sea Harrier pilot and now STOVL lead test pilot at NAS Patuxent River...
...F-35B Take-off Options
The F-35B STOVL variant has a range of take-off options using different modes to suit the basing. Take-offs from a ship, with either a flat deck or one with a ski jump, are also possible with a mode for each scenario. These are short take-off scenarios that can be achieved at speeds as low as 50kts with a deck or ground run of no more than a 200ft (60m). In the same mode, a take-off as fast as 150 knots is possible if the weight of the aircraft requires that speed. If the aircraft is light it can take off at a slow speed and faster when heavy.

Take-off at speeds as low as 5, 10, 15, 20kts (9, 18, 27 and 36km/h) are also possible, each of which is effectively a vertical take-off while moving forward. There are different ways of rotating the aircraft in STOVL mode, including the usual ‘pull on the stick’. Other ways are by pressing a button or programming a ground distance required after which, the aircraft control law initiates the rotation and selects the ideal angle for climb-out...."
______________________

RAMP UP Deck-mounted ski-jump assembly marks key step toward U.K. carrier-based JSF operations, Aviation Week & Space Technology / 19 Aug 2013 pp.33-34
“As a new phase of ship-borne testing of the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter gets underway on the amphibious assault vessel USS Wasp, British shipbuilders are assembling the ski-jump launch ramp on HMS Queen Elizabeth - the first of two new JSF-dedicated aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy.

The 200-ft.-long ramp is the longest ever fitted to a carrier and, like the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers (QEC) themselves, is the first of its type to be purpose-designed from the outset for F-35 operations. Angled at 12.5 deg., the ramp will be 20-ft. high and is designed to reduce the required deck roll on takeoff by up to 50%, or allow an increased payload of up to 20%. The ramp achieves this by boosting vertical velocity, giving the aircraft a ballistic launch profile that provides it with additional time to accelerate to flying speed...."
__________________________

“...Onboard the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers, the aircraft would take off at its maximum weight of nearly 27 tonnes using a UK-developed ski-jump,...” 2204.62lbs = 1 tonne 59,535lbs = 27 tonnes [Wing Commander Hackett explained]
ETS Winter 2012-13 (http://content.yudu.com/A219ee/ETSWin12/resources/20.htm) ETS winter 2012_13 LIGHTNING STRIKES
_______________________

Roles F-35B Lightning II http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/f35jointstrikefighter.cfm
"...maximum weapon payload of 6 Paveway IV, 2 AIM-120C AMRAAM, 2 AIM-132 ASRAAM & a missionised 25mm gun pod [no longer being purchased]...
_________________

[b]Ship Shape — F-35/QEC simulator - PAUL E EDEN; AEROSPACE TESTING INTERNATIONAL Sep 2014
"300 Take-off run in feet from QEC for lightly loaded F-35B
800 Take-off run in feet from QEC for fully loaded F-35B"
____________________

Jumping Jack Flash July 2014 unknown author; AIR International F-35 Special Edition
“…STO-ing…
…There are three ways to conduct a short take off (STO) in the F-35B: stick STO, button STO – and auto STO. “That’s a completely automated way to STO the aircraft off the flight deck. You punch in a distance and the aircraft will auto rotate to its optimal fly-out condition. It’s all based on distance: we know where the aircraft is spotted and where it should start its actual rotation,” explained Rusnok. “Unlike a Harrier, which launches off the end of the ship flat, the F-35 rotates at about 225 feet from the bow, sits on two wheels until it gets to the end of the ship and actually takes off, a much different process to a Harrier. From a pilot perspective, you lose some sight of the front of the ship; in a Harrier you can see all the deck. But that’s all part of optimising a 35,000lb aeroplane to get off the ship compared to the Harrier, which is only 16,000 to 25,000lb.”

With stick STO the pilot controls the take-off by pulling back on the stick, holding it there and then rotating to the optimal pitch angle to fly off. In button STO, the pilot uses a trim switch which rotates the aircraft when pushed in, activating it when the aircraft passes the yellow STO rotation line positioned 225 feet from the bow of the ship.

“That was a temporary marking applied on the flight deck for this trial and is now being permanently installed on the ship with lighting,” explained Rusnok. “It’s based on optimising the performance of the aircraft and its flying qualities, so we can get the aeroplane off with the maximum amount of nozzle clearance and performance. The STO line is our visual cue to either pull the stick aft or hit the button; or if you’re on automated STO you should start seeing the aeroplane’s flight controls moving by the line, otherwise the pilot can intervene and pull back on the stick. We’ve never had to intervene.”

The pilot also has command of the throttle. Two power setting options are available for takeoff: Mil STO and Max STO, as Maj Rusnok explained: “When you taxi to the tram line you stay in mode one, the conventional flight mode. You convert the aircraft into mode four, the STOVL flight mode, and it takes about 15 seconds or so for the doors to open up and the lift fan to engage.

“Then you push the throttle about halfway up the throttle slide into a detent position at about 34% engine thrust request. It sits there and you check the engine gauges: if the readings are okay you slam the throttle to either Mil or Max position and then release the brakes simultaneously. Pushing through to max is like an afterburner detent. But it’s not an afterburner – you can’t go to afterburner in mode four.

“It’s a very fast acceleration. The closest we would spot from the bow is 400 feet, so about 175 feet before we would actually start rotating the aeroplane [at the STO rotation line]; so very, very quick.”...

...Maj Rusnok said the take-off was very much like that ashore, with very little sink off the end of the deck. “The aeroplane is ridiculously powerful in STOVL mode. Just raw, unadulterated power.”
________________________

[b]Salty Dogs & Funky Jets - Oct 2015 Mark Ayton; Air International OCTOBER 2015 Vol.89 No.4
"…Ski Jump Trials
...Sqn Ldr Edgell explained an interesting fact about the takeoff: “You can be lined up three, four, five hundred feet back from the start of the ramp and as you slam the throttle forwards, the jet doesn’t know it’s about to go up the ski jump. It waits for certain triggers to alert it to the fact it’s going off the ski jump, at which point its flight control system moves the horizontal tails and the nozzles into the optimum position. It needs to hit 45 knots going up the ramp.

“The throttle needs to be above 65% ETR, with 6 degrees of attitude and a pitch rate of 6 degrees per second. At that point it moves all of the effectors into the right place...."

CVF STO Ski Jump Deck F-35B Sim Details Pilot [Pete Kosogorin BAE test pilot: “...STO 800 feet with FULL operational load [F-35B CVF off Ski Jump]...”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxezKrL6apQ

[Ninthace]

Very informative. Thank you.

[Mogwi]

Fascinating stuff, indeed.

Mog