Norway bristow winchman with wet feet?

[copterhead]

Hello,

I hope I am posting this topic in the right section, I have 2 questions for the people here who know things (preferably from experience) about SAR operations around the world. First I'll tell why I am asking these questions and then I'll ask them.

I am a young person (18) who is currently looking for a goal in life, or at least a goal for the coming years. I like running, swimming, and see myself as an adventurous person. I only just graduated from middle school and am now a proud owner of a qualification with wich I can go to university. I found out about the occupation winchman trough my interest for helicopters. It seems like the perfect job for me. But..., and this is going to sound dumb, being only a winchman might not be enough for me. I want to really rescue people. Like the US coast guard AST's do and the (former) royal navy SAR divers. I want to be IN the water and do the rescue as opposed to only stay on the wire like the winchman do. I did alot of research about it and I found out that those 2 options are not possible as I am dutch and the SAR divers are removed form operational service a while ago.
So here are my 2 questions:

1. In this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exljdc5xgjQ) video I think I see from 2:14 till 2:21 and from 2:52 till 2:58 that the winchman is carrying something on his belt wich I think are fins. That would suggest that the winchman seen on the video was prepared to get in the water and swim. That raises the actual question:"Do bristow winchman in norway get off the wire and actually swim to the survivors in the water and then rescue them?"

2. My second question is a less specific one. Everywhere I look on the internet there is always a very strict border between "rescue swimmers" and "winchman". Rescue swimmers get off the wire and put survivors in the basket and winchman stay on the wire and try to rescue survivors from there. Now I think that winchman are very limited in the types of rescues they can perform compared to rescue swimmers. For example:"How will a winchman rescue someone stranded in a cave?";"How will a winchman rescue someone that has gone underwater because of a big wave?". I don't think the type of SAR cases that occur on the US coasts are very different from the types that occur on the coasts of the UK. So my actual question is:"How will bristow fill the gap that the limitations of the winchman creates?"

I would be very gratefull if someone would answer my questions, it would really help me with deciding wich carreer path to take.

Thanks alot in advance!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Can't help you with the first one, but to answer the second, there isn't really a gap to fill. The winchmen on British (and other) rescue helicopters are more than capable of resolving pretty much every incident which crops up using their existing techniques and equipment. Bear in mind that winchmen may well come off the wire if the situation requires it - there's nothing forcing him (or her) to stay attached just because the job description is 'winchman' and not 'rescue swimmer'. If the rescue diver role was so vital, why do you think British SAR aircraft don't have them? No offence at all to the remarkable individuals who do the role - they are very brave and certainly a desirable part of the crew, but not essential in most cases.


I want to really rescue people


No doubt you didn't mean to cause any offence, but be careful with your wording - suggesting that winchmen don't really rescue anyone might ruffle a few feathers! Most SAROps in the UK SRR are overland or coastal anyway (I don't fancy a rescue swimmer's chances of success if he jumps out over Torridon or the White Cliffs) and the variety of challenging, exciting and downright dangerous rescues which British winchmen (and others elsewhere) conduct is enough for most people!

[copterhead]

First of all thanks for the reply!

Bear in mind that winchmen may well come off the wire if the situation requires it

I am not trying to offend anyone and especially not the brave winchmen all around the world but there is a reason winchmen are called winchmen.
As far as I know, correct me if I am wrong, are the winchmen not trained to swim nor do they have any equipment (from what I have seen) that would support a swimming rescue(like masks/fins/snorkel). The standards for an US AST are very high for a reason, because swimming in big waves is not an easy thing to do. So I'd still think there is a gap to fill that is created by the winchmen limitations. They are very proffesional people and I respect them, but it is just not a good idea to come "off the wire" when you are not trained to do so. Then you have 1 extra victim in the water. Again no offence.

why do you think British SAR aircraft don't have them?

Well I don't know the answer to that question but I would very much like to do so, because I don't understand how you can just remove that part from the SAR ops. I'd think they would replace that asset with something that is sufficient in carrying out that role but that also has other roles within the navy.
Like you said they are not needed in most SAR cases.

No doubt you didn't mean to cause any offence.

Indeed, that wasn't my intention at all. I truly respect all men and women who do this job and I am not trying to condescend them but I fear that if I become one, I will be "that paramedic who picks victims up". I don't want my picture in the newspapers, I don't want to brag about being one if I will ever be. I am in no way trying to imply those things by saying what I said. I just want to really put the skills that I think I posess to good use and I mean really to use. That is all I want.

Thanks again for the reply and I hope others will try to answer my questions too.

Cheers

[nomorehelosforme]

I can't help, but wish you all the best, you are clearly an ambitious young man, good luck in a tough industry. Let us all know how you get on with your career!

[copterhead]

I can't help, but wish you all the best, you are clearly an ambitious young man, good luck in a tough industry. Let us all know how you get on with your career!

Thanks mate, will do.

[chute packer]

Have alook at chc.ca in the careers section, there are EOI for future roles as aircrewmen, the position descriptions a fairly intensive fitness test including a swim section, might give you an idea of what they can be required to do.

[jimf671]

Luftforsvaret training.
http://forsvaret.no/sites/artikkelbilder/PublishingImages/Redningsmann/redningsmann2.jpg?lastned

Recruitment swim test on their website is 400m and also 25m underwater.

There seems to be a rescue swimmer tradition in Norwegian Air Force. The guy I met is Senior Redningsmann/Senior Rescuer on his card yet during conversations (English) he routinely referred to himself and others as rescue swimmers.

I have no information about contractor procedures in Norway.

I think a lot of this is about what risk profile your organisation and your society accept. Nobody's way is wrong.

[copterhead]

Have alook at chc.ca in the careers section, there are EOI for future roles as aircrewmen, the position descriptions a fairly intensive fitness test including a swim section, might give you an idea of what they can be required to do.

Thanks for the reply! I checked it out and you were right. You have to pass a fitness test that includes these challenges:
* 8 chin ups non stop
* 50 sit ups in less than 2 minutes
* 40 push ups in less than 2 minutes
* 3 kilometre run in less than 15 minutes
* 700 metre swim in less than 20 minutes, followed by
* Tread water for 10 minutes
* 300 metre fin in less than 10 minutes (Fins to be provided by applicant)
* 3 metre duck dive to retrieve object
* demonstrate single person water rescue technique incorporating 25 metre survivor tow

They must be completed within 2 hours.

There seems to be a rescue swimmer tradition in Norwegian Air Force. The guy I met is Senior Redningsmann/Senior Rescuer on his card yet during conversations (English) he routinely referred to himself and others as rescue swimmers.
I think a lot of this is about what risk profile your organisation and your society accept. Nobody's way is wrong.

Thanks for the reply! I searched a bit and found out that they do have some sort of rescue swimmer tradition in norway. Strange thing, it seems like it that the same company (chc) uses different methods in different countries. Depending on what method that particulair country uses for their government run SAR. That would support you statement about what the society accepts.

I found some videos of SAR in norway in wich you can see rescuers who have fins on. One video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIHcWpvqmnE) was about CHC sar so I guess they use swimmers in norway.

So my conclusion from all this is that if you want to be a "swimming" winchman, you should get some experience elsewhere, become fit and then try to get into one of the norway bases of CHC.

This helps alot guys keep it coming!

[copterhead]

I was also wondering if anyone here knows if there is a private company in europe that uses freefall deployement (jumping out of the heli) as a way to get the rescuer in the water?

I searched for it but I can't find anything, help would be much appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

[jimf671]

Careful. If you demonstrate an unreasonable appetite for risk, you will be unemployable.

[[email protected]]

Copterhead - it sounds like you need to look at the Canadian military SAR technicians' job - they are free-fall, mountaineer, diver, rescue swimmer, survival expert, winchman and all-round tough guy rolled into one.

The sheer size and variation in geography of their SAR area means they are often dropped in from FW to the casualty in order to stabilise them whilst the helicopter takes 2 or 3 days to transit to recover them.

In UK, the RN stopped having divers aboard SAR helicopters a few years ago - partly due to the training burden and partly because a diver is only useful in a very small minority of SAR situations whereas a winchman is what you want for the vast majority of them.

The only UK SAR job I have heard of with someone being swept into a cave in the last 15 years was in Devon and that person was rescued by a winchman.

[aergid]

All I can say on the fact is having worked as a part time winchman on Lynx helicopters in FAA, it can get hairy enough at the end of the wire never mind being in the deep blue yonder without the bleedin wire attached to me espcially somewhere like near the Portland Races, North Sea or Bay of Biscuits...:eek::eek::eek:
We used to do rescues off boats/submarines which meant we came of the wire but were always told in open water to stay on the wire no matter what...:yuk:

My mate once did a backwards free fall from a lynx in Portland harbour while training (30mtrs) , but that was because the baby Observer never attached the dispatcher harness to the helicopter before undoing the winch wire from the winchman and he was still on the door ledge of the cabin oops..:ugh::ugh::ugh:

oh and not forgetting the days the 'Boss' was pissed with you and put you in the washing machine (all winchmen know what I mean)....

Good luck with the Job hunt. I personally think the Dutch Marine SAR ops (if they still around) would be your best bet...

[copterhead]

Careful. If you demonstrate an unreasonable appetite for risk, you will be unemployable.

Thanks for the reply but I think you don't get what I am after. I don't have an unreasonable appetite for risk. I just want a job that really combines being a rescuer and a paramedic. With this topic I am trying to find out if there are any jobs out there that really split those two 50/50.

Copterhead - it sounds like you need to look at the Canadian military SAR technicians' job - they are free-fall, mountaineer, diver, rescue swimmer, survival expert, winchman and all-round tough guy rolled into one.

I am dutch so that won't be an option. Thanks for the reply though.

All I can say on the fact is having worked as a part time winchman on Lynx helicopters in FAA, it can get hairy enough at the end of the wire never mind being in the deep blue yonder without the bleedin wire attached to me espcially somewhere like near the Portland Races, North Sea or Bay of Biscuits.

Thanks for the reply mate. I guess you are right. Being on the wire is enough and the choice between rescue swimmer or winchman is just a matter of taste. One isn't better than the other. But I still want to find a company within europe that uses rescue swimmers instead of winchmen.

About the dutch navy sar, that is a part time function just like you did. That means I'd have to find another job within the navy that I can combine with being a winchman. And I don't really want a job in the navy except for that one. So I better try my luck in the civilian life.

____________________________________________________________ ____

Meanwhile I have found something interesting.
It seems that "Priority 1 air rescue" has recently opened a badass training center in arizona where they offer SAR training to companies (Priority 1 Air Rescue SART/TAC Fully Operational | Priority 1 Air Rescue | Air & Helicopter Search and Rescue (http://www.priority1airrescue.com/priority-1-air-rescue-sarttac-fully-operational/)) . One of the courses they offer is the "rescue swimmer course" in wich they teach the exact same methods for rescue swimming that are used by the USCG and US navy (Era and Priority 1 Air Rescue establish JV SAR training centre | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2010/07/17/era-and-priority-1-air-rescue-establish-jv-sar-training-centre/)).

And here comes the interesting part, they are opening another school "within the european union" this year too. That would mean that they will teach rescue swimmer methods to european companies. This could lead to a change in european SAR operations for some companies. I haven't found where and when they will open the school in europe yet. But it will open this year so we'll what happens after.

[Winnie]

The answer would really be that only the US Navy and US Coast Guard uses free deployment anymore...

Everyone else uses Winchmen. Simple, less risk of losing the swimmer.

The task is on par with some special forces types, and the requirements for fitness are very similar. I know several, and if you think there is a large difference just because one group jumps from 30 ft you are wrong I believe.

I have played "Victim" during one class' Final Exam in Nroway a few years ago (for 330 Sqn) and it was NO walk in the park.

Cheers
H.

[Matari]

There's a guy here by the name of Um...Lifting who knows a thing or two about USCG ops. I'm sure he'd have an opinion about the relative merits of using rescue swimmers vs. winch ops, with the wide variety of water conditions, sea states, marine traffic and the thousands of miles of populated coastlines we have.

[Vie sans frontieres]

copterhead

You're being far too picky. Whether you're attached to the wire or not, you'll still get ample opportunity to rescue people from the water and then apply paramedic skills. If rescuing people is what you crave, then take the necessary steps to enable yourself to get some rescue helicopter time in.

However, the reality is that your employability in the civilian sector will probably depend on the number of years of military service that you have in the role which means the necessary steps will be signing on the dotted line somewhere. You're unlikely to get snapped up as an 18 year old enthusiastic wannabe rescuer unless it's by an organisation with questionable selection, training and standards.

[copterhead]

The task is on par with some special forces types, and the requirements for fitness are very similar. I know several, and if you think there is a large difference just because one group jumps from 30 ft you are wrong I believe.

Thanks for the reply, but what do you mean by saying that the requirements for fitness are very similair. Do you mean that they are very similair for a winchman and a rescue swimmer? If you know several, could you give me some company names? Thanks in advance.

There's a guy here by the name of Um...Lifting who knows a thing or two about USCG ops

Thanks for the reply, I hope he will join this topic.

You're being far too picky. Whether you're attached to the wire or not, you'll still get ample opportunity to rescue people from the water and then apply paramedic skills.


Thanks for the reply. I guess you are right. I think all those videos I watched about rescue swimmers carved some kind of picture in my brain that shows me that rescue swimmers are more focused on the rescue part then winchmen are.

Again I didn't mean to offend anyone who is part of any aircrew.

If rescuing people is what you crave, then take the necessary steps to enable yourself to get some rescue helicopter time in.

Yeah I saw that, nearly every job posting requires experience. So that would be a good step, where do you suggest I get that time?

You're unlikely to get snapped up as an 18 year old enthusiastic wannabe rescuer unless it's by an organisation with questionable selection, training and standards.

I know that very well. I am planning on earning some money to pay for a degree in paramedic science, that way I may get my first job if I am lucky. If you know an organisation that is not the militairy that does that, please tell me.

[Vie sans frontieres]

copterhead

I think you'll struggle to achieve your goal without military SAR experience. There are occasional stories of guys being in the right place at the right time and landing on their feet. If you get your paramedic qualification that may help but that's going to take time, as is building up experience on the road.

If you were the recruiter, you would want to minimise the risk to your organisation. That means knowing what you're getting which generally means recruiting those with lengthy, full-time military SAR experience. An organisation wouldn't take their chances with unproven, inexperienced non-aviators if that other known quantity was available. Unless of course, they were recruiting on the cheap.

[copterhead]

I think you'll struggle to achieve your goal without military SAR experience. There are occasional stories of guys being in the right place at the right time and landing on their feet. If you get your paramedic qualification that may help but that's going to take time, as is building up experience on the road.

If you were the recruiter, you would want to minimise the risk to your organisation. That means knowing what you're getting which generally means recruiting those with lengthy, full-time military SAR experience. An organisation wouldn't take their chances with unproven, inexperienced non-aviators if that other known quantity was available. Unless of course, they were recruiting on the cheap.

Thanks for the reply. I know it will cost effort but I am willing to give effort. I just need a way in so I can prove myself and I think that being a paramedic gives me the best chance of getting in.

I read somewhere that chc once hired paramedics and trained them as aircrewman. Those are the kind of opportunities I must look for.

Do you also think my best shot (except the militairy) is becoming a paramedic? I am hesitant because a paramedic science course will cost me alot and at least 2 years. Get me right, I'd love to be a paramedic as well so if I don't get into an aircrew I can just do that for the time being.

[jn45672]

Hey copterhead,
at 18 you seem to know what you want..after ALOT of research myself heres what I know..
(First of all joining the military is an option but I guess you already knew that...Im on here to answer your question as to private companies..

Australia:
If you don't want to train as paramedic and want to go straight in as a rescue swimmer then Oz is a good option. Companys like Careflight train indivduals to become rescue swimmers and aircrewman/winch ops..but don't get me wrong, this is expensive as your training will be in a twin engine heli and only a few flying hours involved..but maybe a start! You also don't have to be paramedic, an EFR qualification is the standard I think, but has tough fitness levels. Companys like CHC, Careflight, Australian Helicopters and others on east coast is worth having a look into..

Europe:
From my research most companys in Europe hire paramedics and then train them as winchman. From what I know some military only use resuce swimmers. There are some companies who will give search and rescue training like helirescueconsult but I think this is only to private companies who have there own heli and want down the wireman/hoist training. It would be ALOT of money for yourself just to train on a EC145!!

USA:
Join the USCG/Navy & become an AST/rescue swimmer which is extremely tough. or become paramedic with years of experience and join companies as winchman..I think this is Era Helicopters policy.

From what iv learned most companies have there own policy as to hiring winchman/rescue swimmers but been a paramedic in Europe is a major +. I know the cost of training as a paramedic aint cheap but it might outweigh the cost of paying for rescue swimmer training in a helo with only a few hours under your belt and no coin left...(but the experience is good)))
Have a look at Bristow website..they hiring winchmen for down the road but paramedic is standard. It aint an easy industry to get into with limited jobs and ex mill having most of the experience, but if youv got the drive youl get there.

[copterhead]

Hi thanks for the long reply and of course all the info.

Militairy:
Don't think that'll work, like I said earlier. I'd have to pick a function within the navy that I can do in conjunction with being a winchman. And I just want full-time.

Australia:
Won't be an option untill I get some decent experience in my pocket. I'd very much like to go there and be a winchman or preferably a rescue swimmer but that is down the road.

Europe:
Will be my best option in my eyes. I'd first do 2 years of paramedic science and then work a while as a paramedic while trying to get into the aircrew business.
Train for it with a private company will indeed not work for me as it just costs too much. And I also think that getting a degree from a university is a good thing (experience). I could get a BSc if i'd study for another year after that paramedic course and I may do that. And all of those things are not possible if I pay my way into aircrew just to be there as soon as possible.

US:
Won't work as it's almost impossible to get a VISA for a guy like me. But I may end up there someday if a company asks me so.

I am now really looking into getting into a paramedic science course as I think that that is the gateway to being a rescuer. I think it's a very interesting study as well so that's all great.

Thanks guys and keep it coming.