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Sun Who
4th Aug 2013, 18:53
Where do we think this one will go?
Gibraltar: The 'Party Is Over' Warns Spain (http://news.sky.com/story/1124461/gibraltar-the-party-is-over-warns-spain)

Sun.

Lima Juliet
4th Aug 2013, 19:04
Sun

I expect this is also related...

Jet fighter threat to the Falkland Islands | World | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/419522/Jet-fighter-threat-to-the-Falkland-Islands)

The Spanish and Argies have always enjoyed a linked dialogue of understanding between the Falklands and Gibraltar.

Best they give back the Canaries first though, if the Spaniards want to take the moral high-ground! :ok:

LJ

PS. It is also 300 years this year since the Treaty of Utrecht that gave us Gibraltar.

Dengue_Dude
4th Aug 2013, 19:06
Here we go again . . .

smujsmith
4th Aug 2013, 19:11
As Leon says, this has the same feel to it that the Falklands debacle had. An Hispanic government in an economic mess at home need to divert the populations attention away from their plight. I would think that a reciprocal threat of extra taxes on travel to and from Spanish holiday destinations, with its obvious knock on effects, would be sufficient to ward off the threatened border tax. Curious though that when a spat breaks out between member states Rumpy Von Pumpy and Co. are peculiarly quiet.

Smudge

Lima Juliet
4th Aug 2013, 20:04
I also think that this (Repsol secures Spanish court case over YPF expropriation - FT.com (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c2c143e-ea33-11e2-913c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2b245DUxo)) coupled to Spain's and Argentina's economic woes may also be at play here. Hence, my surprise at the Mirage F1 deal.

Isn't it always connected to oil!

LJ

Jimlad1
4th Aug 2013, 20:32
Surprised at the news, but bluntly, if the argentine air force can somehow overcome decades of chronic underfunding, lack of training, operations and support and turn 8 nearly 40 year old jets (plus spares) into something that can threaten MPA, then I'd suggest we've got some fairly serious issues.

Lima Juliet
4th Aug 2013, 22:05
Of course, on top of the Canaries you can add Melilla and Ceuta on the opposite side of the Straights of Gibraltar - both on Morrocan soil, both about the size of Gib and both belonging to Spain!

How about Spain handing these back and we'll give them Gib? No, I thought not...:ugh:

For those that do not know, Gib is on the left and Ceuta is on the right in this picture of the Straights of Gib...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Strait_of_Gibraltar_perspective.jpg/320px-Strait_of_Gibraltar_perspective.jpg

orca
5th Aug 2013, 05:02
If you haven't read Razor's Edge by Bichenot for an incredible peak into the Latin psyche may I recommend it?

Mad_Mark
5th Aug 2013, 05:19
Is it legal under EU law for one member state to tax people who cross into a neighbouring member state?

pasir
5th Aug 2013, 06:30
Is it legal under EU law for one member state to tax people who cross into a neighbouring member state?

>>>>>>

Seems that the EU do not recognise (or accept) GIB as a member state of the EU

ORAC
5th Aug 2013, 07:28
Seems that the EU do not recognise (or accept) GIB as a member state of the EU Totally false.

Gibraltar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Gibr altar)

Since it is not part of the Schengen Area Spain is legally obliged to perform full entrance and exit controls; but charging a fee would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome.

Eclectic
5th Aug 2013, 08:01
Spain are daft. We can harm them far more than they can hurt us.

Step one would to be obstructive within the EU to economic support for Spain.
Step two would be very thorough inspections of Spanish fruit and vegetable lorries entering the UK. Also cargoes of wine and Vauxhall/Seat cars.

All legal. And very damaging indeed.

If Spain actually did something against Gibraltar we could use The City to cripple their economy and GCHQ to cripple their infrastructure via the internet.

Arcanum
5th Aug 2013, 08:16
What makes you think the banks in The City work for 'us'?

Pontius Navigator
5th Aug 2013, 08:23
What makes you think the banks in The City work for 'us'?

Santander?

If the Spanish Air Force started to buzz BA flights would be send have a Hawk Det there on QRA?

Navaleye
5th Aug 2013, 08:58
Its not so much retail banking that matters but the Bond market as a whole. Driving up Spains bond prices by asking our institutions not to buy them would push them over the edge.

Not_a_boffin
5th Aug 2013, 09:13
Its not so much retail banking that matters but the Bond market as a whole. Driving up Spains bond prices by asking our institutions not to buy them would push them over the edge.

Or they may be banking (sorry!) on the implications of going over that edge being such that the Boxheads and the Foul and Most Foreign put reciprocal pressure on the UK to prevent it.

To a degree they appear to be so deep in the sh1t that they're applying the old maxim "owe the bank a tenner and they own you, owe them a million and you own them" on a rather epic scale......

A2QFI
5th Aug 2013, 09:34
And hundreds of tons of melons and salad vegetables. Just look out for the Spanish trucks from Murcia that bring them in. All over the motorway from Dover

TomJoad
5th Aug 2013, 09:36
Spain are daft. We can harm them far more than they can hurt us.

Step one would to be obstructive within the EU to economic support for Spain.
Step two would be very thorough inspections of Spanish fruit and vegetable lorries entering the UK. Also cargoes of wine and Vauxhall/Seat cars.

All legal. And very damaging indeed.

If Spain actually did something against Gibraltar we could use The City to cripple their economy and GCHQ to cripple their infrastructure via the internet.

Yeah right!:rolleyes:

Torque Tonight
5th Aug 2013, 10:08
Until Spain gives up Cueta and Melilla, each a mirror image of Gib, then there is absolutely nothing to discuss. Even then, Gibraltar is British as a result of the Treaty of Utrecht, which Spain signed. Just as with the Argies, this is the od tactic of diverting attention towards an external scapegoat, rather than having to address some awkward internal issues.

Isn't a condition of membership of the EU acceptance of existing internal borders?

Onceapilot
5th Aug 2013, 10:18
Doesn't bode well for the FSTA mission management development:uhoh:.

OAP

Shack37
5th Aug 2013, 10:26
TomJoad

Yeah right!:rolleyes:

Most succinct and sensible post so far.
I hope our William Hague isn't reading this.

jayteeto
5th Aug 2013, 10:40
Going there in a few weeks for the brother-in-laws wedding, we visit a couple of times a year. Staying in a hotel in Spain and commuting across daily.
Things have been getting arsey for months, even before this fishing fiasco. Civil Guards have been spotted STANDING ON THE BEACH and taking photos of themselves, then legging it back to the boat when Gib authorities arrive. It seems to be local commanders taking things into their own hands in 'El Presidente' style.
Generally, the border guards are friendly and courteous and there are few delays, even at peak times when there can be hundreds of spanish workers crossing to jobs in Gib. We go to eat in La Linea and most of the time we flash a passport from 30 yards and they wave us through. The current delays are targeted for maximum publicity, funny how politicians will do anything to distract from economic problems........... Malvinas anyone????

BEagle
5th Aug 2013, 12:26
Doesn't bode well for the FSTA mission management development.

Sir only has to ask! An Airbus alternative has been in operational service with the Luftwaffe and RCAF for well over 3 years now....and is now being upgraded to extend its flexibility and mission options even further. It could be included in Voyager with little effort....:rolleyes:



Back to Gib. When Spain has so much unemployment and general financial mayhem, quacking about the right to Gib might sound all very nationalistic and clever, but even Franco thought better of disturbing the status quo. In any case, if they can't run Spain properly, what makes them think that running Gibraltar as well would be of any benefit?

Unlike Ceuta and Melilla, which were obtained by conquest and were never officially ceded, Gibraltar was indeed ceded to Britain in perpetuity. If they don't accept the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, perhaps we should take a similar view of the 1783 Treaty of Versailles and demand the return of Menorca?

Navaleye
5th Aug 2013, 12:55
I agree and we can call it the Byng Islands :D

CoffmanStarter
5th Aug 2013, 13:05
So that's where Courtney's gone ... he's dusted off his leg restraints and headed south to fly CAP :cool:

Dysonsphere
5th Aug 2013, 13:09
So that's where Courtney's gone ... he's dusted off his leg restraints and headed south to fly CAP

It might come to that, Typhoons out of Gib anyone. Might give then cause for thought.

Mad_Mark
5th Aug 2013, 13:10
pasir...
Seems that the EU do not recognise (or accept) GIB as a member state of the EU

Better let William Dartmouth know that then since he is under the impression that he is the MEP for Gibraltar :ok:

Coochycool
5th Aug 2013, 17:30
Do you reckon Morocco would be interested in some second hand Jags on favourable terms?

sittingstress
5th Aug 2013, 17:49
Woo hoo, I have just been up in the loft and found my beret, mudguards, rankslides, OG's, Survive to Fight and framed stripped down Combo-Pen. I am certain I can acquire an NBC suit with the lining taken out, a stack of Green Cards (do they still have them I think they were F807?) but most importantly the stamp that authorises them.

Under no circumstances will I enter into bartering for a stamp with WO & FS Junior Ranks Mess, WO Supply, JNCO Clothing Stores, JNCO Squipper, SNCO Flying Clothing or SNCO Allowances. :hmm:

GDT Rock volunteers his services!

Will there be a hotel and rates?

LeggyMountbatten
5th Aug 2013, 20:21
See if you can track down WO O'Cxxxx's (the well known rock showjumper) fire plan from 1982 ...told me that he had great fields of fire set up across the runway...showing the difference between enfilade and defilade fire...

pasir
6th Aug 2013, 07:37
Appologies for inadvertantly adding to any confusion over the Gibralter issue whereby my original post should have quoted from a news report that 'Spain' does not recognise Gibralter as a member state of the EU.
So far as can be ascertained, to come to any firm undisputed
conclusion on the subject then one may need to trawl through reams of
Governmental diplomatic gobbledygook.

ORAC
6th Aug 2013, 07:44
Appologies for inadvertantly adding to any confusion over the Gibralter issue whereby my original post should have quoted from a news report that 'Spain' does not recognise Gibralter as a member state of the EU. Gibraltar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Gibr altar)

With respect to the application of EU law to Gibraltar, the governments of Spain and the United Kingdom made the following Declaration which is appended (as Declaration 55) to the Treaty on European Union: "The Treaties apply to Gibraltar as a European territory for whose external relations a Member State is responsible. This shall not imply changes in the respective positions of the Member States concerned."

dazdaz1
6th Aug 2013, 13:56
I'm off to Gib in about six weeks. If things went TU and a Spanish Typhoon was 'buzzing' my Easy flight, would any of you chaps get up there to shoo it off?

Daz

CoffmanStarter
6th Aug 2013, 14:09
Gibraltar's Chief Minister has accused Spain of acting like North Korea and sabre-rattling over the country's new hard-line stance on Gibraltar.

BFBS News Gibraltar (http://bfbs.com/news/spain-gibraltar-border-charge-threat-64254.html)

2Planks
6th Aug 2013, 14:25
As others have said Gib is British thanks to the Treaty of Utrecht and the population wishes to remain so under the UN Right to Self Determination. Unlike Melilla and Ceuta which are not covered by any treaty AFAIK and the residents of which would rather not be Spanish!

Instead of political games and raising a few quid a far sighted Spanish Minister would be far better leading an advertising campaign in the UK to attract holidaymakers - something along the lines of 'come back to an old friend' to 'cash in' on the uncertainty thanks to various Arab 'seasons' - if Turkey kicks off again there would be real money to be made on the costas even if only 30% of the Turkish trade reverted to Spain.

CoffmanStarter
6th Aug 2013, 16:25
SS @ #29 ... Relax old chap ... the RAF now has Rock Drones that we can deploy :E

http://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/hm-forces-pack-1.jpg

:ok:

Lima Juliet
6th Aug 2013, 18:37
Unlike Melilla and Ceuta which are not covered by any treaty AFAIK and the residents of which would rather not be Spanish!

I know that Ceuta was gifted by the Portugese under the Treaty of Lisbon in 1668 - the question being, was it their's to give away in the first place! :ok:

LJ

PS. Very drole, coff :p

CoffmanStarter
6th Aug 2013, 19:24
Hi LJ ...

Yep ... Looks like they modelled you spot on too :ok:

http://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Tornado-Fast-Jet-Set.jpg

Mind you this one is a cracker :D

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/E9075920_5056_A318_A85235EAE0E18AEE_zps1db2924b.jpg

Best ...

Coff.

Wander00
6th Aug 2013, 19:31
Is that your sword or are you just pleased to see me!

Fox3WheresMyBanana
6th Aug 2013, 19:38
If you put 8 jets* into the Gib circuit and you all do rollers for 20 minutes, you can cause an international traffic jam, which p!sses the Spaniards off mightily!

Max Boyce.

p.s. BBC News - Argentine President Fernandez renews Falklands claims at UN (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23596312)

Everybody act surprised.
"To lose two bits of allegedly Latin territory looks like carelessness"
with apologies to Oscar


*do we still have 8 jets?

smujsmith
6th Aug 2013, 20:26
I notice reports on the news this evening that that formaldehyde formed woman in charge of Argentine tannoy broadcasts is shouting about the Malvinas again. Putting the pressure on, I suspect, as she perceives how weak the government is on Gibraltar. It is curious that the Ashton woman, Rumpy Von Pumpy nor Barbossa have any comments to make on the situation. I'm sure if UK had invaded Sardinia there would be some EUphonic vibrato.

Smudge

500N
6th Aug 2013, 20:31
I see the Gov't has asked the RN to send a warship to Gib to stop intrusions.

reynoldsno1
6th Aug 2013, 22:19
Is the CHAG still installed?

Navaleye
7th Aug 2013, 02:59
I have seen no reports to suggest that any major warship has been diverted to Gibraltar. Please quote your source.

500N
7th Aug 2013, 03:03
Navaleye

That bastion of superb reporting, The Daily Wail :O


I just did a search and it was Gibraltars Chief Minister who asked
and is reported in other media as well.

"Gibraltars-chief-minister-asks-Britain-send-Royal-Navy-warship-strength-stop-incursions-Spanish-boat-police-Rocks-territorial-waters"


Gibraltar's chief minister asks Britain to send Royal Navy warship as show of strength to stop incursions by Spanish boat police into the Rock's territorial waters | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2385421/Gibraltars-chief-minister-asks-Britain-send-Royal-Navy-warship-strength-stop-incursions-Spanish-boat-police-Rocks-territorial-waters.html)

BEagle
7th Aug 2013, 06:51
"Gibraltars-chief-minister-asks-Britain-send-Royal-Navy-warship-strength-stop-incursions-Spanish-boat-police-Rocks-territorial-waters"


Yup - send the buggers a gunboat. That should do the trick....:rolleyes:

Heathrow Harry
7th Aug 2013, 07:36
The Spanish Coast Guard have been playing silly buggers in the harbour area for a couple of years

Maybe we slap at £200 tax on everyone visiting Spain from the UK in retaliation..........

500N
7th Aug 2013, 07:38
BEagle

Didn't it used to be a shot across the bows ?

I reckon that would wake them up.

millerscourt
7th Aug 2013, 08:36
Can we afford the ammunition:confused:

mmitch
7th Aug 2013, 13:41
This article quoting the Navy News says that 'while the core of the Navy are on leave during August, HMS Portland is ready to defend the UK.' So that's it.
:uhoh:
MoD News - Portland Protects The Nation (http://www.modoracle.com/news/Portland-Protects-The-Nation_27421.html)
mmitch.

AndyPandy068
7th Aug 2013, 22:20
This is of course political smoke and mirrors to distract the domestic population from other problems.

But how to respond proportionately and legally while still putting some iron in the glove?

Reciprocal charges won’t work, charging Brits to fly to Spain simply upsets the voters. I suspect charging Spaniards to enter the UK is probably illegal under EU law.

How about investing in some high quality optics to monitor Spanish fishing boats and police launches intentional or ‘accidental’ entering of Gibraltarian waters with an administration fee of something substantial like 20,000 euros. If they don’t pay then using the optics they can be identified and a European Arrest warrant issued.

By taking a hard line it won’t be long before the locals start hammering on the doors of their politicians to get the authorities to wind their necks in a bit.

Lets start using the rules to our advantage for a change that others use to abuse us.

Probably totally illegal but can’t we try being a bit more imaginative and stop being pushed around?

smujsmith
7th Aug 2013, 22:43
Andypandy068,

"Reciprocal charges won’t work, charging Brits to fly to Spain simply upsets the voters. I suspect charging Spaniards to enter the UK is probably illegal under EU law."

I suppose that the same can be said of the border charges to Gib proposed by Spain. For me there are two options.

1. Give Gibraltar back to Spain.

2. Stand up to the aggression (obviously started to deflect attention from the Spanish political woes). Put a few competent (typhoons) aircraft to protect legal British trade in and out of Gib. SBS/marines to patrol Gib legal boundaries, and use force if required.

Unfortunately, with the current governments acquiescence in all matters to the EU. EU intransigence towards the UK I suspect we end up with option 1. For all of the rhetoric the likes of call me Dave are not about to upset Rumpy Von Pumpy.

Smudge

althenick
8th Aug 2013, 00:28
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/537177_10100554898900319_1623786767_n.jpg

Picked this up off Gob Book...

Hi Spain. Only me. I just google-mapped Gibraltar as I didn't really know where you kept it. And I couldn't help notice this little place just over the water called Ceuta. I think it's yours but you've actually left it in someone else's country and Wikipedia tell me that Morocco rather want it back. I'm not being funny, Spain, but is this the pot calling the kettle Moorish? Anyways, send my love to Portugal. Toodleoo. Px

500N
8th Aug 2013, 00:45
That's very good.

Hopefully the media will pick up on it and publish it.

I wish Cameron or someone else would publicly mention Ceuta
and that the inhabitants want to return to Morocco !

It would be interesting to see what the reaction to this
would be from the Spanish Gov't.

Maybe the UK media should be shouting out about
it a bit more to stir the pot.

LeggyMountbatten
8th Aug 2013, 14:03
The UK not mentioning Cueta may be wise. What happens if Madrid decide "it's a fair cop, handing back Cueta will get all the other EU states and the other permanent members of the Security Council on side to our claim for Gib". Where does that leave HMG? We handed over HK island and Kowloon south of Boundary Rd notwithstanding the perpetuity in the Treaty of Nanking.

Blue Bottle
8th Aug 2013, 17:11
3 large grey boats on the way

British warships set sail for Gibraltar in show of strength as diplomatic row over border controls deepens | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2386850/British-warships-set-sail-Gibraltar-strength-diplomatic-row-border-controls-deepens.html)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/royal-navy-set-for-cougar-13

dallas
8th Aug 2013, 17:28
Show, of strength huh? This should be good... :rolleyes:

As the US President would say, "Where are the carriers?".....d'oh!

NutLoose
8th Aug 2013, 17:30
I was there with 4 Jags from RAFG when the border opened, prior to that, all flights in and out avoided Spanish airspace.

I would imagine these days the local Spanish employment and economy is intertwined with that of the rock, closing the border or putting any restrictions on it would cause a backlash on the Spanish Government. With tourism etc it tends to be a one way traffic, British to Spain and not the other way round.. The way their country is at the moment it feels like the game the Argies are playing, cause a furore over something that is a National passion to try and deflect the publics gaze from the real issues with the economy.

CoffmanStarter
8th Aug 2013, 17:52
My thoughts ...

We need someone with highly developed diplomatic skills who is also skilled at achieving a negotiated settlement ...

This chap (the one on the left) gets my vote :ok:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmj6zjcT0z1qfijizo1_500.jpg

:E

Agaricus bisporus
8th Aug 2013, 18:05
"it's a fair cop, handing back Cueta will get all the other EU states and the other permanent members of the Security Council on side to our claim for Gib". Where does that leave HMG? We handed over HK island and Kowloon south of Boundary Rd notwithstanding the perpetuity in the Treaty of Nanking.

As ever examining the facts as opposed to the hype provides the answer...

Ceuta and Melilla were annexed by Spain by force and their "ownership"has never been ratified by any treaty, afaik.

Gibraltar, on the other hand, was formally signed over to the UK by Spain in perpetuity at the treaty of Utrecht - an unimpeachable contract.

To demonstrate the UK's sometimes excessive adherence to the rules HK was offered back to China f.o.c, to China's amazement, as they hadn't noticed/remembered the treaty that gave it back after - what - 100 years or something? They thought we were utterly nuts to have volunteered to give away such a valuable asset. All for the sake of "playing the game" and "sportsmanship".

And people expect us to abandon legally held Gib?

Are they f£ck!ng insane???

Heathrow Harry
8th Aug 2013, 18:35
Nonsense AB

HK came in two bits - the islands plus a little bit of Tsim Tsa Sui south of Boundary Road were ceded to the UK by treaty (an "unequal treaty" but a treaty none the less) forever

The vast majority of the colony's area were the New Territories which had a 99 year lease - no-one ever thought it was for life - and the Chinese stood by the deal for 99 years. It was a clear contract - hell, we WROTE it!!

The problem, apart from the fact that Boundary Road was now right in the middle of the modern city, was that all the water supplies, plus the old airport were in the NT. When the NT were handed back all the Chinese had to do was turn a tap and the "UK" bits of HK ran out of water in a week......

The British knew they had a 99 year lease and occasionaly tried to extend it - the Chinese, who banged on about the unequal treaty, did very little but wait and refused to renogiate the lease (I've had landlords like that)

The British would have had to fight to hold onto the NT after the lease expired and funnily enough no-one thought (on any side) that that was a brilliant idea

The Chinese never really argued about HK island etc - they knew it would fall into their hands eventually

Both sides played a long game (the Chinese are reputed to believe that the British Foreign Office are the only people who have a similar view of time as they do) and TBH the outcome was a damn sight better than fighting a useless, hopeless war and wrecking the joint and killing several million people

Lima Juliet
8th Aug 2013, 19:27
Ceuta and Melilla were annexed by Spain by force and their "ownership"has never been ratified by any treaty, afaik.

Try the Treaty of Lisbon 1668...

Portugal yielded Ceuta to Spain on January 1, 1668, at the signing of a peace treaty at Lisbon between D. Afonso VI of Portugal and Carlos II of Spain, by mediation of Charles II of England.

Source Eurostat (http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/es63_geo.htm)

LJ :ok:

fincastle84
8th Aug 2013, 20:17
If the Spanish do return to the Rock, would they please have a thorough search for the £1000s I lost there over 20 odd years of Nimrod detachments?

I even ended up there on 2 occasions when I was on exchange with the Canadians at Greenwood!

taxydual
8th Aug 2013, 21:15
Easily solved.

Grant Gibraltar independence.

Allow them to join the Commonwealth and the EU.

Then let the UN sort it out.

Oh, hold on.................... I think I mentioned that about the Falkand Islands.

Funny how history repeats itself.

beerdrinker
8th Aug 2013, 21:16
The whole thing is an attempt by the Spanish PM to deflect domestic news away from the fact that he has recently been accused of accepting bribes.

Received today:

All right, Spain. You’ve asked for this.

You’ve issued one of your five-yearly threats to seize, impound, disrupt, tax or otherwise penalise Gibraltar and its residents on the grounds that this small bit of rock is attached to the bigger bit of rock you call home.

For some, this provides irrefutable proof that Gibraltar is Spanish. Presumably in the same way that China is Russian and Denmark belongs to Germany.

Not letting logic get in his way, your foreign minister has declared ‘the party’s over’ and threatened 100 euro fines for people crossing the border, banning flights from Spanish air space and generally started behaving like Franco in a particularly belligerent mood.

Very well. Let’s look at the facts, shall we?

1. Gibraltar is about as Spanish as pie and chips. The first recorded occupants were Lebanese traders , followed by Germans, Romans, and the Islamic empire. The first castle was built by a Berber sultan and it wasn’t captured by the Spanish until 1462.

2. Twelve years later you sold it.

3. You spent 200 years or so invading much of the world, killing millions of Amerindians with smallpox , and burning and torturing those that survived because they didn’t think eating a thin bit of flour and water was the same thing as eating the body of a man they’d never met .

4. You tried to do the same here, first by marriage and then by invasion . Not the best way to make friends.

5. You did nothing very much with Gib for two centuries and then lost it in a fight with us and the Dutch. The fight was about whether a French prince could succeed to the Spanish crown and thus rule half of Europe. Most of Europe didn’t like the idea, and you were invaded by pretty much everyone up to and including the Holy Roman Empire.

6. Unsurprisingly, you lost. We all signed the Treaty of Utrecht in which the French prince was allowed to have Spain so long as he promised to be nice and sign away a few things. Article X states: “The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications and forts hereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.”

7. There’s not a lot of wriggle-room in that. Lawyers, eh?

8. What you gave us in 1714 was a 300-year-old Moorish castle, a medieval town and a fishing port. In the years since we have turned it into a naval base, a financial centre, tourist destination and online gaming base which turns over £650million a year and provides employment for 10,000 of your citizens. You’re welcome.

9. The last person who seriously laid claim to it is the fascist dictator you’d rather forget, and there were referendums in 1967 and 2002 which found 99% of the population wanted to remain British.

10. In 500 years of warring you’ve lost far more often than you’ve won and you have, most noticeably, consistently failed to win against us. You tried to seize Gibraltar by force twice in the 18th century and failed miserably on each attempt, since we smashed your Armada in 1588 it’s never been the same since.

Considering all this, it is entirely understandable that with your economy on its arse, suicides endemic following eviction and a government not so much beleaguered as halfway to hell and still digging you might feel the need to hark back to the days of empire and rattle the old sabre a bit.

You are though on rather shaky ground, not just because you signed a contract and the 30,000 Gibraltarians want you in charge of them about as much as they want to contract the ebola virus.

smujsmith
8th Aug 2013, 21:35
Beerdrinker,

Splendidly put sir, a "magnum opus" of analysis to which the Spaniards will of course, have no answer. If only we could see this put, live, to the Spanish government, and get a reply. Thank you for a more than informative post.

Smudge :ok:

SCAFITE
9th Aug 2013, 08:20
According to the Mirror the Royal Navy is to send a Task Force to Gib next Monday. One Carrier and two Gunboats (they called them Gunboats not me)plus support ships

Gibraltar: Britain to send Navy warships to Mediterranean in show of force to Spain - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gibraltar-britain-send-navy-warships-2142385)

Fox3WheresMyBanana
9th Aug 2013, 08:22
Readers should be advised that Taxydual has an ulterior motive. Next year he'll quietly slip in Independence for Yorkshire.......'appen 'e will.

November4
9th Aug 2013, 11:41
How many here have been to Gib? And for an extended period. And thus gained an intimate knowledge of the place? Thought so!

Me- 3 year tour there as well as 3 short dets

November4
9th Aug 2013, 11:47
According to the Mirror the Royal Navy is to send a Task Force to Gib next Monday. One Carrier and two Gunboats (they called them Gunboats not me)plus support ships

Gibraltar: Britain to send Navy warships to Mediterranean in show of force to Spain - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gibraltar-britain-send-navy-warships-2142385)

Really lucky the dispute happened at the time when the RN were about to deploy to the area on Cougar 13 (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/royal-navy-set-for-cougar-13) - gives the Government an opportunity to look tough when all along the ships were heading that way.

This is the third year the routine deployment has taken place, with its aim to demonstrate the ability to operate a highly effective maritime force anywhere in the world to protect UK interests.

Genstabler
9th Aug 2013, 12:25
How many here have been to Gib? And for an extended period. And thus gained an intimate knowledge of the place? Thought so.
I have. What's your point?

taxydual
9th Aug 2013, 13:29
Damn, my cunning plan is foiled.

Belle and Sebastian
9th Aug 2013, 14:16
I'm here at the moment.....what do you want to know?

The Old Fat One
10th Aug 2013, 09:43
All this well hard macho stuff plays well down the pub, but it's not very real is it?

Spain closed the border with Gib for 16 years a while back (1969 - 1985) and I don't recall us doing too much more than bluster about it then.

I know a fair bit about The Rock, Spain and Spanish people (evidently a lot more than most of here) and IMO the quickest way to get the opposite of what you want from the Spanish is to confront them. They don't back down too quick...It's their Arabic/Roman origins don't you know.

Not in anyway sticking up for them...just trying to bring a little reality into fantasy land.

Silly me.

Lima Juliet
10th Aug 2013, 09:57
If Lusty is going to Gib then we could always embark some NATO Harriers - oh, hang on they're Spanish! :ugh:

Maybe it's a cunning plan to lure them onto Lusty by making them think she's the PDA and then we claim them as war booty! :ok:

LJ :}

PS Just noticed that PDA was decommisioned this year - that scuppers my cunning plan!

Shack37
10th Aug 2013, 22:06
TOFO

:D:D:D:D

Wonderful, a post from the real world.

As one who might be thought (due to my location) to have to defend this with the locals here, I find the conversation is still almost exclusively about food and drink.

Coochycool
11th Aug 2013, 01:13
Sadly Leon J. adds a prescient point. Far from Lusty's sailpast being a timely show of force, isnt it a signature of impotence to parade a FW carrier with no actual FW aircraft, when the incumbents are the one regional nation who possess it? Any on the ball Spanish journo should be able to point out the obvious symptoms of a post colonial nation in decline and fuel the fire. BTW, what if it had been Harriers not Mirages being gifted to Argentina? Irony or what!

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
11th Aug 2013, 08:04
Far from Lusty's sailpast being a timely show of force, isnt it a signature of impotence to parade a FW carrier with no actual FW aircraft, when the incumbents are the one regional nation who possess it?

A fair point and you will have noticed that the Group contains no credible Air Defence capability. Who said that our daring was in short supply?

ShotOne
11th Aug 2013, 11:41
Perhaps that's just as well...dont forget this is all a contrived diversion for the Spanish PM to draw attention from his national economic shambles and personal corruption allegations. Let's not spend whats left of our defence budget on giving him exactly what he wants!

howiehowie93
11th Aug 2013, 15:41
I did a three year tour at Station Flight in Gib, 1987 onwards. The Peeps there reckoned it was much better with the border shut!

Wensleydale
11th Aug 2013, 16:08
Next year he'll quietly slip in Independence for Yorkshire


Nay, Lad! We'll just have the Ridings back!

Sun Who
11th Aug 2013, 18:50
I find myself wondering why they haven't 'ganged up' before:confused:

Gibraltar And Falklands Pose New Battle For UK (http://news.sky.com/story/1127266/gibraltar-and-falklands-pose-new-battle-for-uk)

Sun.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
12th Aug 2013, 08:29
..because they haven't simultaneously needed to divert their respective populations' attention before?




p.s. the Yorkshire Ridings still exist. When the Post Office brought in that North Humberside rubbish, we just kept addressing letters to 'East Riding' till they gave up.

Courtney Mil
12th Aug 2013, 10:08
Not to worry. As soon as the Task Force arrives it'll all be OK.

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/8/9/252685/default/v1/9397365-1-1-522x293.jpg

Epsilon minus
12th Aug 2013, 12:07
Can someone explain why HMS Illustrious is being sent to Gibraltar aeroplaneless?

Mad_Mark
12th Aug 2013, 12:25
Can someone explain why HMS Illustrious is being sent to Gibraltar aeroplaneless?
Because...

1. It is not being sent to Gibraltar, it is passing Gibraltar en-route to the Middle East to take part in the long-planned Exercise Cougar '13,

and...

2. It is not "aeroplaneless" as it is now a helicopter carrier and will have several helicopters embarked in order to carry out its role in Ex Cougar '13, i.e. to assist in the delivery of hundreds of Royal Marines ashore and provide ASW screen to the 'task force'.

Good enough explanation for you? :ok:

The Old Fat One
12th Aug 2013, 13:31
Maybe a few of you could do with a little bit of travelling, or broadening your reading material?

All this horse manure about "diverting the population's attention" is pure drivel.

The Spanish people are mightily p1ssed off at the moment, but with the state of their economy and with the people they perceive to have shafted them (USA, Germany, all the banks, et al). They could not give a FF about Gib so all this is going right over their heads.

The Spanish government have kicked off over Gib because the Gibraltar government raised the ante. The splutter and bluster coming out of No 10 is quite embarrassing and will actually play well the Spanish, if indeed, their government is looking for diversion. Nothing the spanish like more than a barrel load of empty threats.

Ironically, if No 10 want to get serious they have the wherewithal to kick the Spanish right where it hurts by attacking the tourism traffic from the UK.

I doubt it could be done legally within the EU, but the mere threat that the UK could go down the tit for tat route and levy up on tourist traffic would capture the attention of the Spanish tourist industry faster than you can say Torremolinos.

sitigeltfel
12th Aug 2013, 14:03
The Spanish people are mightily p1ssed off at the moment, but with the state of their economy and with the people they perceive to have shafted them (USA, Germany, all the banks, et al).The Spanish people asked for an EU credit card, proceeded to max it out, and are now squealing about having to pay it back. They voted for the governments that allowed the banks too much leeway, tough ****. Maybe they will learn.......but I doubt it.

The Spanish government have kicked off over Gib because the Gibraltar government raised the ante.There is only one word to describe that statement......it ends in "llocks". The Spanish government have kicked off in an attempt to deflect attention from their own corruption, incompetence and mismanagement.

The splutter and bluster coming out of No 10 is quite embarrassing and will actually play well the Spanish, if indeed, their government is looking for diversion. Not sure what you are on about, the UK government has so far been fairly reticent, allowing the Spanish to continue making fools of themselves with their threats of dragging Argentina into the spat.

You really should think things through before you post.

Courtney Mil
12th Aug 2013, 16:50
You really should think things through before you post.

Bugger. I guess you mean me too? Unlikely to happen, though.

Coochycool
12th Aug 2013, 17:21
According to the Oxford English Dictionary an aeroplane is "A powered flying vehicle WITH FIXED WINGS and a weight greater than the air it displaces". Illustrious is therefore most definitely "aeroplaneless" and will sadly remain so.

And the reason? Coz we aint got none guvnor.

Never mind though, given that she'll be putting into a Spanish port en route, maybe our NATO ally wouldnt mind helping out with a deployment of their very impressive jump jets. We really should get some of those.

Oh, hang on a minute.....

airsound
12th Aug 2013, 17:36
According to the Oxford English Dictionary an aeroplane is "A powered flying vehicle WITH FIXED WINGS and a weight greater than the air it displaces".Thank you so much for pointing that out, Coochycool.

As someone who spends quite a lot of his life talking to people about aeroplanes, aircraft and helicopters, I'm a tad ashamed to say I hadn't cottoned on to that nice distinction.

My OED is slightly different to yours - it says
A powered heavier-than-air flying vehicle with fixed wings - but it's the same meaning....

It also says that an aircraft is
a machine capable of flight, esp. an aeroplane or helicopterSo, many thanks - I'll be able to get it right in future. And keep my pedant's credentials in situ.

airsound

Coochycool
12th Aug 2013, 17:51
Well its all just part of the fun.

Never mind though, its not all bad news. The Spaniards just decommisioned their one true carrier Principe de Asturias a few months back. Something to do with being skint I believe. So they might well be only too grateful for a hand in that department.

Theres always the chance though they can make a few bob by selling her on to a friendly Latin American nation.....

Oh dear

NutLoose
12th Aug 2013, 17:57
They should have waited then they could of had Maritime coverage, the American Gannet has just flown again and the one at St Athans is heading towards its first flight..

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=492268194198696&set=vb.482477938511055&type=2&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=492290497529799&set=vb.482477938511055&type=2&theater



:)

Coochycool
12th Aug 2013, 18:09
Very nice, thanks for posting.

So thats it boys, we've cracked it.

All thats left now is to deploy Vulcan 558 out to Gib n we'll have the buggers running off scared into the sunset.
:\

airsound
12th Aug 2013, 19:01
Brilliant idea, Coochy.

I'll put it to the chaps. ( I don't think they read PPRuNe much.)

airsound
XH558 commentator

Coochycool
12th Aug 2013, 19:35
Wouldnt we all love to see this?

Especially the ready made captive audience backed up from the border to the runway gates. Get them to turn the taps up a bit and we'll see if we can set off all the car alarms in La Linea.

Wodja reckon they'll get Spanish ATC clearance though?!

Epsilon minus
12th Aug 2013, 20:45
Dear Mad Mark,
Regrettably your explanation was short of the mark. As explained by CC there is a difference between aeroplane and aircraft which is also detailed in EU law (PART IR) so I chose my word with care.

An RAF colleague once told me that the only reason that helicopters become airborne is because the earth repels them. Anyway, moving on........

I cannot see how any aeroplaneless carrier can rattle any sabres and although this warship exercise was 'pre planned' the 'coincidence' has not been lost on the Spanish or the press. I fail to see the wisdom of sending it to the Med' as it makes us (as a nation) look toothless (which we are but no sense in advertising it eh?)

Regards
EM

Coochycool
12th Aug 2013, 21:27
Indeedy.

Apologies for thread drift here but recently I couldnt help but notice the contrasting responses to Europes' economic implosion.

The Brits elected to ditch the Harrier (oops, bit Freudian) but retain their flat-top.

The Spaniards have tied up their carrier but retained the jets, and are now operating them, perhaps with some difficulty, off something called the Juan Carlos I. Bit reminiscent of the Ocean.

Sorry, unable to post links or piccies, maybe someone else can oblige if so interested.

Anyway, bit daft asking this in an aviation forum, but which way would you have gone? Fraid I'm ignorant of the relative savings but would Lusty have been a fair cop in order to retain even a handful of SHARS?

Dunno

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
12th Aug 2013, 21:29
Anyway, the aerodyne embarked Carrier is part of Ex COUGAR 13 which will have been known to our NATO Allies for some considerable time. We have 2 Spains; the hypersensitive packed full of national esteem one and the sensible NATO cooperative one. To change the Exercise Order simply because we have a diplomatic tiff would pander to the former and probably not greatly impress the latter.

Davef68
12th Aug 2013, 21:46
A fair point and you will have noticed that the Group contains no credible Air Defence capability. Who said that our daring was in short supply?


I think our Daring is in the Far East.....

HMS Daring goes on global deployment | Royal Navy (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2013/May/28/130528-Daring-deploys)

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
12th Aug 2013, 23:02
Indeed but Daring is an entire Class (all half dozen of them), not just a single ship. :ok:


which way would you have gone? Fraid I'm ignorant of the relative savings but would Lusty have been a fair cop in order to retain even a handful of SHARS?


I can't really answer your question but it might be worth remembering that the Navy views an embarked aircraft as just another weapon. Their Lordships took a risk by gashing the SHARs to save money. They were content that they had an alternative weapon in the Harrier 7, albeit only a mud moving one. When their Airships were cornered into gashing the Harriers to save money, it did rather bugger things up. The Navy did not have enough Budget to operate their share of the Harrier force and cover what was previously the Air Force's share of the Harrier Support Chain. That left us with warships fitted for but not with certain weapons: aeroplanes. Their Lordships believed that it was better and more flexible to have ships that Allies could arm with their weapons than have weapons needing Allied ships to deploy them. Just my view on it, for what it's worth.

Davef68
13th Aug 2013, 08:54
Lusty has only been kept to provide LPH cover whilst Ocean is in refit.

oldmansquipper
13th Aug 2013, 10:01
As a start...how about imposing hefty restrictions on all Iberian Aircraft wanting to use UK air traffic facilities and airports?

Oh...for Iberia read BA, of course....Bugger!:(

Perhaps we could do a Cyprus and "liberate" cash from UK Santander savings over a certain amount......;)

Epsilon minus
13th Aug 2013, 11:11
GBZ
I hear what you say with regard to exercise planning and the NATO pre match huddles v the Latin patriotic verve and zeal, but sending an aircraft carrier with no aeroplanes is an own goal. Bit like turning up at the golf course with a caddy and no clubs? Image is everything and the image of an empty carrier (shown being towed backwards out of Portsmouth on the BBC) sailing off to the scene of sovereignty squabbles, is not a good one at all - signals we are impotent.
I am surprised that the admiralty allowed themselves to be out manoeuvred by Gordon Brown and his gang - is that true if so its incredible!
EM

Phoney Tony
13th Aug 2013, 11:43
I think a fly past by Spanish Matadors would be fitting statement.

Mad_Mark
13th Aug 2013, 12:12
but sending an aircraft carrier with no aeroplanes is an own goal
They are not 'sending an aircraft carrier', a helicopter carrier (complete with helicopters) happens to be passing by en-route to a long time pre-planned exercise. It would have gone that very same route even if this had not all kicked off :ugh:

Coochycool
13th Aug 2013, 12:22
Well this point has been pointed out several times already, and it will rankle if for example even the co-operative NATO aspect of the Spaniards send something up to look at Lusty and we have nothing with which to meet them.

As earlier alluded to by GOLF BZ, the disjointed set of events responsible for this farce is surely indicative of more than cost cutting, it is lack of cross-force co-ordination due to bungling at Whitehall. If youre going to downsize your mantle a la Options For Change, then there should at least have been a degree of foresight.

Anyway, as this thread is about the current Gib situ, what to do about it?

Well I wouldnt take the bait by overt show of force anyhow, that would be the proverbial red cape to the bull. Much more subtle (and more British) would be for example a visit by the Reds at end of season. Put their jets in the circuit at evening rush hour, effectively closing the border, then let the disgruntled Spanish workers trying to get home do the rest. They'll soon let their local MP know what they think.

Just an idea

Fox3WheresMyBanana
13th Aug 2013, 16:59
see post 40. 20 mins with 8+ jets does the trick!

Coochycool
13th Aug 2013, 17:11
Nice one Fox3.

A double whammy even.

They want queues, they can have queues on the ground, queues overhead.

Is this traffic inbound to Gib, Malaga or in general? Yeah, lets stack up Madrid with a pile of Ryanair jets on minimal fuel!