In Scotland's Defence

[Sun Who]

A damning report by the well respected Henry Jackson Society on the SNP's proposed Defence Policy for an independent Scotland:
http://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/HJS-In-Scotland%E2%80%99s-Defence-Report.pdf

At the heart of the problem with the SNP’s defence strategy is the fact that it appears to be more concerned with helping win the 2014 independence referendum, than with actually defending Scotland.In particular, some of the analysis of the SNP's plans for things like MPA reveal what appears to be a stunning level of naivety.

Sun.

[sitigeltfel]

stunning level of naivety.
The Nats in a nutshell.

[Biggus]

I realize that this is an emotive subject, but in my personal opinion...

"..more concerned with helping win the 2014 independence referendum, than with actually...."

...could be applied to many/most of the SNP policies. However, I guess that is the very nature of politics.

Standing by for this thread to get very emotive, irrational and probably even rude if it holds true to previous form - unfortunately. :(

[Wrathmonk]

if it holds true to previous form

Click (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/518758-scotlands-defence.html).

[Heathrow Harry]

TBH - when Scotland IS independent who will be the threat?

Russia? - too big to take on - ignore or adopt a policy like Finland 1945-1990

Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Faeroes - ridiculous - fishing wars only

England & Wales - possible but unlikely

The rest of the EU - no

So if they are independent and they ditch the hang-over of Empire they are a small country on the edge of Europe who are unlikely to be threatened by anyone - so they need a cheap MPA, some fisheries protection vessels and a small Army for internal security

[Rigga]

They will just need enough to protect their claimed extended assets, i.e. Fishing and Oil/Gas areas, and no more. I'm pretty sure they have no other real or perceived threats to their country or people

[Sun Who]

Wrathmonk,

Thanks for posting that link, I wasn't aware the report had been raised in a previous thread. :O
As people have posted against the topic again, I'll let this run a bit, but if it trails off quickly or gets repetitious, I'll delete it.

Sun.

[Tankertrashnav]

I'm just wondering, are there any sovereign states anywhere in the world which do not maintain a military force of any type or size? I'm referring to viable states with, say, a population of half a million or more, not flyspecks on the map in the middle of the Pacific.

Could be a bold (if foolish) move for the Scots to say, we dont think we have any need for military defence, so why shell out billions for it? A beefed up police force or gendarmerie could cover the internal security side of things.

[Biggus]

While I fully realize that inconsistency is also in the nature of politics, we currently have the SNP complaining that Scotland has lost an unfair number of military personnel based within its borders during recent defence cuts. The first minister complaining that no RN surface assets are based in Scotland, etc.

It would seem somewhat inconsistent if they were subsequently to say that Scotland doesn't really need any military of its own if it were to become independent.

However, I refer you once again to my opening remark!

[eastern wiseguy]

Tankertrashnav. I doubt the Republic of Ireland could do much in the way of defending itself...
Other than looking out for errant northern fishing boats and manning checkpoints in places like the Lebanon in days past what do they need an army/navy/air corps for?

[Churchills Ghost]

Unity is a powerful thing when authentic.

The referendum will show us whether or not our existing unity still has any real support among the Scots.

Personally speaking, I will respect them whatever they decide but - I shall admire them the more if they fight for us to remain one.

[ORAC]

I'm just wondering, are there any sovereign states anywhere in the world which do not maintain a military force of any type or size? Military of Iceland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Iceland)

Iceland's defences consist of the Icelandic Coast Guard which patrols Icelandic waters and airspace and other services such as the National Commissioner's National Security and Special Forces Units.[1][2][3][4] Iceland is however the only NATO member which maintains no standing army, although there is no legal impediment to forming one and Icelandic services perform the operations fellow NATO allies relegate to their standing armies.

The Coast Guard consists of three ships and four aircraft and armed with small arms, naval artillery, and Air Defence weaponry.[5] The Coast Guard also maintains the Iceland Air Defence System, formerly part of the disestablished Defence Agency, which conducts ground surveillance of Iceland's air space.[5][6]

Units subordinated to the National Commissioner also take part in Iceland's defences. Foremost of these are the National Security Unit, which handles intelligence operations and the special unit Víkingasveitin, a highly trained and equipped counter terrorism unit which is part of the National Police force.

Additionally there is a Crisis Response Unit (ICRU), operated by the Ministry for Foreign affairs, which is a small peacekeeping force that has been deployed internationally, since 2008 performing duties unarmed unless under special circumstances..........

[Sun Who]

Norway provides the vast majority of Iceland's defence, based on a treaty signed in (I believe) 2009.

Sun.

[Albert Driver]

Scottish Defence Force? I can't think of any time before the Union when they weren't looking for a fight.

We'll let them have some tanks.

Then we'll need a proper defence budget to protect ourselves from them ...... ;)

[TomJoad]

These advertising cookies are getting either really clever or spooky things are afoot. I opened this thread without logging on, read through to the last post to find the advert at the bottom was from some financial magazine MoneyWeek with leading article Is This The End Of Britain?. You couldn't make it up:D

The End Of Britain (http://info.moneyweek.com/urgent-bulletins/the-end-of-britain/)

[Heathrow Harry]

Tankertrash - most of the islands in the S pacific only have a notional armed services - mainly to parade at the airport when the big man leaves or arrives

I think many just have Police Forces

List of countries without armed forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces)

[Tankertrashnav]

HH - I think these come into the category of flyspecks on the map as mentioned above!

Eastern wiseguy -Ireland has all three services, albeit they are somewhat smaller than most. I seem to recall the Irish Air Force operates some C172s. As this is the only "military" aircraft I have ever flown solo I wonder if they would have me as a reservist (my grandfather was Irish, so that should cover the nationality question)!

[Roland Pulfrew]

TTN

According to this website (http://www.military.ie/en/air-corps/fleet/) t'would appear that your 172s (1972 vintage) are still in service. :ok:

[pax britanica]

Anathema here I am sure but can't you just extend the logic in one of the above messages about sizing Scotland's armed forces to the English situation.
Small country, marginalised off the coast of Europe, oil and gas and fishing to protect.
Who do we go to war with?

Russia-don't think so
America -also don't think so
China too far away to care about us anyway
EU pretty unlikely with the ruling classes having second homes in France and Spain and driving Mercs and BMWs


Army
A fair number of squaddies for parades and keeping prols and chavs in their place, helping people in floods and keeping an eye on any IRA resurgence

Navy
Some decent patrol boats for looking after oil and fish-unless that's all gone with Scotland
HMS Victory and HMS Belfast to remind us what a navy was

A few helicopters for the royals and to ferry the squaddies about
The Red arrows
BBMF-same role as HMS Victory above

There you are a defence policy for 2020

Or maybe I am being too simplistic

[Heathrow Harry]

It's an argument I suppose - but the Politicians, the Press and I suspect the great British Public are still keen on having the capability to intervene here & there - although few of them are willing to pay the rate for the job to do so :sad:

Until we are happy to say "none of our business" to whatever is happening outside this green & pleasant land we will have relatively large armed forces

[OutlawPete]

It's an argument I suppose - but the Politicians, the Press and I suspect the great British Public are still keen on having the capability to intervene here & there - although few of them are willing to pay the rate for the job to do so :sad:

Until we are happy to say "none of our business" to whatever is happening outside this green & pleasant land we will have relatively large armed forces

I'd say it's more likely that we'll be told by our friends across the pond where and when we will 'intervene' rather than it being a conscious decision made by the British public or indeed our politicians. Personally I'd rather see a more concerted effort to defend the British isles, her shores and offshore assets than waste more cash doing the bidding of people in power who we didn't vote for.