How simple is flight training?

[Air knight]

Hi Guys
Am actually 1hour old on this forum, so please be tolerant if this has been asked before.
I am concluding plans to begin flight training at Portland, with Hillsboro come Nov , that will be in about two and half months give or take.

I received an estimate for Zero to Cfi from Hillsboro to be from $60,000 to $70, 000, depending on the ability to assimilate flight training, which brings me to my main point.

What is the average for concluding the entire flight training program as in from zero to Cfi, for an above average student?
In addition to woking my butt off, is/or are there any other way(s) of making flight training as fast, as easy as possible without failing any of the check rides?

Finally I have a budget of $65, 000 will this be adequate if am able to pass each stage of the flight training with an 80% pass rate?

I really will appreciate any feedback I can get.

P. S
Will 1000 HRS be sufficent to get an airline job in Africa, specifically Nigeria?

[Transsonic2000]

Hi there and welcome to the forum!

What is the average for concluding the entire flight training program as in from zero to Cfi, for an above average student?Just out of curiosity, what makes you think/believe that you are an "above average student"? I mean we are talking about the "zero to hero" program, which usually implies that people have zero or only very little flying experience.

Well, if you already have some "flying experience" (meaning more than just "I went for a scenic flight once") like, I started working on my PPL some time ago and went or was close to my solo, but had to abort my training for what reason ever. If that'd would be the case, I'd say quite likely that you could finish your training in minimum time = minimum cost.

Otherwise, you wouldn't be the first who overestimates his flying skills!

Anyway, the cost estimates of the flight schools are based on the minim requirements according to the regulations set out by the respective national aviation authority, in this case the FAA.

In the US there are two training syllabuses, PART 141 and PART 61.


PART 141: 150 hr CPL/IR (that's what Hillsboro's cost estimate is based on, but this doesn't include instructor training)
PART 61: 250 hr CPL/IR (no instructor training included as well)

According to the PART 141 syllabus, requirements for the PPL check-ride is 35 hr (20 hr dual and 15 hr solo) and if you want to finish your training in minimum time, you need to stick to that time frame, otherwise you'll bust the time and financial frame. For an above average student, this should be possible, but for someone without any previous flying experience, this is highly unlikely to happen! According to statistics, the US average time for the PPL is about 70 hr. For the average full time student it takes approximately 50-60 hr to be ready for the PPL check-ride.

The costs for the initial CFI (ASEL) would be around 5000$ - time wise it should be possible to complete the training in about 4 weeks. For the entire CFI program (CFI, CFII, MEI) minimum cost ~ 10.000$ - minimum time frame about 6-8 weeks (depending on your motivation and the flight school).

Well I'm running out of time, I have to come to an end. If you want to know more about that "work as an instructor in the US" thing, I recommend to check-out the following link: http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/517962-school-1500hrs-flight.html#post7915191

[Ka6crpe]

I don't know about USA, but here in NZ 80% is the minimum pass mark. Average that and you fail. Your estimate of $65,000 is probably correct if you get closer to 95% pass mark.

Did you realise that fully 49.5% of students are above average?

[dubbleyew eight]

air knight flying training covers many skills that you need to learn. some of these are theoretical but many of these require you to develop manual skills.

flying an aeroplane is all about anticipating what the aeroplane will do next and putting in the control inputs needed to make the aeroplane do what you want it to do.
The air is invisible and the reactions the aeroplane will have aren't obvious, they are also non linear relationships. The aeroplane will react quite differently at different speeds.
Fortunately for you all these hidden relationships between aeroplanes and environment have been the subject of intense study for over a century.

ALL students hit developmental plateaux when learning to fly if they dont have the theoretical understanding of the aspect of flight handling that they are trying to master.

LEARN YOUR THEORY FIRST then go and apply it in the real world. This will save you thousands of dollars and hours of frustration.

even flying a simple little aeroplane like the one I fly is a continual application of a head full of understood theory in knowing what it will do next and applying the control inputs needed to get it to do what I want.

[Air knight]

Quote
Just out of curiosity, what makes you think/believe that you are an "above
average student"? I mean we are talking about the "zero to hero" program, which usually implies that people have zero or only very little flying experience.


Am I right to assume that, the yard stick for determining an above student in the aviation parlance, is somebody who has had a previous flight experience in anyway or in particular,someone who has had hands on experience? and any other scenario is redundant.

I will defer to you guys that have tons of experience, but I will also want to believe that the parameters of an above average student in flight training goes beyond either incomplete training at whatever stage, to simple hard work and determination to succeed.

Thank you for all the insights, the reason I am quoting he price range and time duration, is because am aware that flights school don't give the entire picture and I wanted a second opinion.

Guys in your opinion how much should I set aside apart from my initial $65,000 budget.
Thank you, appreciate it lots.

[Transsonic2000]

simple hard work and determination to succeedThat's certainly a prerequisite to be successful, but like in any other field it's not only about these traits, it's also about the individual skills/talent some people learn fast, others take a bit longer to get the hang of it, which does not necessarily mean the the fast learner will be the better one or the better pilot in the end.

From my own experience as a flight instructor, I can tell you that it is nothing uncommon, especially among career pilot students to overestimate one's flying skills. They set themselves under enormous pressure to complete the training within minimum time, get things done fast, which (in my opinion) is not beneficial to quality flight training. And in the end it doesn't really matter if it took 30 hr or more to complete the training, and I've never seen someone, half way through the training, quitting because of such reason (and flight schools are well aware of this).

Regarding your questions about the costs. I always told my students, especially students on a visa, to add about one third to the cost estimate they got from the school. Besides that, you also have to take into account the cost of living, accommodation, food, flight tickets, and perhaps conversion of license, once you are back home.

If time is of concern, it's a real time saver to do the studying for the written tests (PPL, IFR, CPL) at home. Aviation Supplies & Academics (asa2fly.com) provides some really good preparation material, I can recommend the virtual testperp series.

[Simon150]

I am sure you will get shot down in this forum for asking the same question that has been answered numerous times in the stickies however, the fact that you are on here, asking questions, have a budget in mind, are consious of the timescales and have an end goal already makes you an above 'average' student.

The amount of uninformed, 'parent funded', disinterested students turning up to learn to fly never ceases to amaze me. Well done, you are already member of the 'other half'.

The biggest waste of time (and money) during flying training based on my limited instructing experience is lack of proper preparation. The guys who do it in minimum hours live, breath and poop aircraft.

Get you head in the books...all of them. Read up and UNDERSTAND - not just the flight training books, there are a given, read books on Soaring (Piggot), Raw Flying (Stick and Rudder), Crashes (Black Box etc), Aerodynamics and Control (Kermode etc), Maths for Pilots. All these will build the big picture you need to understand the practical aspects of flight training and maximise the benefit of the lessons.

Start reading up on FREDA and BUMPFFITCH - don't know what I am talking about....get on google and find out, and see what else you can find out. Get a little black book and start making notes and don't stop - ever.

Procedures - want to save REAL time and money. Get a checklist - any single engine pistion checklist and become familiar. Don't sap 20 minutes out of the start of your first 5 lessons starting the donkey because you don't know or understand the checklist. When you get round to practice, find a comfy armchair and learn your FREDAs and BUMPFFITCHs verbatum so you aren't burning hours learning something you can learn at home. Same with 95% of flight training - approach to the stall - learn the procedure at home 100% so you don't have to repeat the exercise because of a procedural problem (is that carb heat then throttle then flaps or the other way round?) - make your lessons count by focusing on the aspects you can ONLY learn in the air.

Also remember that flying is multi-disciplied. Don't expect to be great at everything but try and identify early on where your strengths and weaknesses are. Make this a priority and discuss with your flying instructor. Make sure you basic maths is up to scratch - and if it isn't get some practice in. Nothing complex but basic mental sumations, subtractions, divisions and multiplications need to be of a reasonable standard - practice it in the car.

Whether you manage it in minimum hours is down to you. Look at the interests, hobbies, backgrounds that those people to whom flying (by which I now mean pure 'stick and rudder' skills) comes so naturally - dig a little deeper and you will generally find a passion, which drives genuine interest which drives study and knowledge.

I always ask my trial lessons what they know about aircraft. Occasionally, after a but of pursuation, they will admit to the closet hobby of building airfix kits when they were a kid, watch the air crash programmes and have a flight simulator they occastionally wheel out when the wife is out shopping and you know it's going to be a good flight.

[Air knight]

Again am greatful for all the information, most especially to those that had to repeat what has been said before.

Quote"

I am sure you will get shot down in this forum for asking the same question that has been answered numerous times in the stickies however, the fact that you are on here, asking questions, have a budget in mind, are consious of the timescales and have an end goal already makes you an above 'average' student.

I have been studying students pilot flight manual by Keshner, the FAA manual on introduction to flight training, I have been watching aircrash investigation on Nat geo for the past 10 years etc,
I am a tax lawyer, I am changing career path because this is what I want to do, flight training is my passion from the age of 9, I am only seeking information to aid me in making wise choices and to make me a better pilot, I don't know all the fundamentals as regards flight training hence my being on this forum.

Thank you all.

[Tinstaafl]

Part time or infrequent flight training tends to take more hours than full time, consistent training due to the loss of skill in the period between flights. It takes a little bit of time to regain that level of skill the next time you fly. This tends to be more of an issue in the early stages but can still arise in later stages when new skills are introduced or after lengthy gaps in flying. The more flying experience you have the longer you can go without getting rusty, and the rustiness will tend to be less for a given period of time. Conversely, the less your experience the greater the effect.

Learning full time reduces the effect. If you can't attend full time then part time but using full time 'chunks of training' helps (not part time 1 lesson per week or two). For example, full time until just after 1st solo or to the start of the navigation stage, then the next chunk could be the navs. You'll get rusty between the chunks but avoid the cumulative losses between each lesson.

As others have written, make sure you learn the flying lesson's material before the flight. If full time, it's easy to get behind in studying for the exams so allow time for that part. If part time in chunks then use the non-flying period(s) to study for & pass the exams.

Try to start your flight training in a season that tends have weather that is more favourable to the early stages of your training. It's bloody hard for a student to learn effects of controls, for example, in turbulence with poor visibility or clouds obscuring the horizon, compared to a dead smooth day with a clear view to the horizon. Similarly with weather suitable for navigation exercises. Later in the various stages of your training you'll need less benign weather conditions to advance your skill.

[obgraham]

Have you looked into the weather in the Portland area starting in November?

Lots of cloudy wet days. Some ice. Hillsboro is a great place, but have they estimated how often weather cancels VFR?

[Transsonic2000]

Have you looked into the weather in the Portland area starting in November?

Lots of cloudy wet days. Some ice. Hillsboro is a great place, but have they estimated how often weather cancels VFR?Oh yes, that's absolutely true! Don't start your training in November, especially in Portland and/or Seattle area. Unless you can afford a lot of ground time, due to weather cancellations. Usually the weather starts to get constant/nice by the end of April, beginning of May. Besides that, Hillsboro is not only great for flight training, nice area and many things to see (especially in Portland downtown) and as already mentioned a good training environment, lots of different approaches and airspaces. Portland international (Class C) only 5 minutes by air (that'd be a nice excursion during IFR training) or Seattle-Tacoma International (Class B). HIO itself is quite a busy Class D airspace, which is at first intimidating (mainly because of the radio communication) but will prove very beneficial during the latter stages of your training. I had a great time there during my training, quite some years ago.

One last thing, quality of training mainly depends on your instructor, as a paying customer it's your choice, I'd recommend to ask for a senior instructor, that's an instructor with many hundreds of hours of flight instruction experience, usually around or above 1000 hr. And of course, personality between instructor and student should match, don't ever accept a yelling instructor, that's highly unprofessional and unacceptable!

[Air knight]

Quote"

Oh yes, that's absolutely true! Don't start your training in November, especially in Portland and/or Seattle area. Unless you can afford a lot of ground time, due to weather cancellations. Usually the weather starts to get constant/nice by the end of April, beginning of May. Besides that, Hillsboro is not only great for flight training, nice area and many things to see (especially in Portland downtown) and as already mentioned a good training environment, lots of different approaches and airspaces. Portland international (Class C) only 5 minutes by air (that'd be a nice excursion during IFR training) or Seattle-Tacoma International (Class B). HIO itself is quite a busy Class D airspace, which is at first intimidating (mainly because of the radio communication) but will prove very beneficial during the latter stages of your training. I had a great time there during my training, quite some years ago.

Will you recommend Florida as a better place than Portland for flight training, including areas such as but not limited to, quality of flight training, weather, cost of living etc.

[Tinstaafl]

In winter? Probably due weather. In summer? No, due weather.

Returning the 'advanced student' issue raised earlier: Like anything else in nature, rate of learning (to fly) is a bell curve. Some people are slow learners, some learn very quickly, and the vast majority are somewhere in between. With more granularity, everyone will be at the slow end for some parts of their training and quicker elsewhere.

Where do you fit on the curve? And for which part of you training? No way to know until you do it!

That being said, some things *tend* to advantage certain groups:

* Younger is better than older
* Full time is better than part time
* Some amount of intelligence better than little
* Other skills & areas of knowledge that are synergistic are better than none or, worse, those that are antagonistic.
* Appropriate weather for the stage of training is better than adverse weather

[Hovermonkey]

What a fantastic post Simon150. :D