Mil Helicopters over central London

[HoneyBunny]

Hello

I was in London Thursday and Friday and saw a Chinook fly over.It's course looked like roughly along the Themes near to Westminster in the afternoon(Thurs).Then again on the Friday this time followed a while later by a Merlin
Great to see and hear, I just wondered what they may have been doing over London?

Thanks

HoneyBunny

[SpringHeeledJack]

They were flying along the Thames as it's a sanctioned corridor H10 and H4 for transiting London (due to engine failure and coming down). The helicopters are usually coming from points westish of London and heading to points eastish and vice-versa. They sometimes land at a couple of barracks in central London, though mostly are passing through. It must be one of the most stunning big city transits for the crews, especially at night.



SHJ

[cyflyer]

Would have been nice if you said 'military' helicopters over London. I started reading this thread wondering why Russian helicopters were flying over
London !

[SpringHeeledJack]

That would've been more interesting if that were the case, not wishing to denigrate any of the UK military helicopters and crew :)



SHJ

[HoneyBunny]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

Honeybunny

[joy ride]

I work and live in South East London and regularly see Chinooks, Merlins Apaches etc., and a few years ago a couple of V 22 Ospreys, perhaps demonstration flights trying to get UK orders.

Oddly, over the last couple of years I have seen more and more Chinooks and Merlins ignoring the bends in the river and cutting straight across South London, and I have been wondering if this was allowed for special flights or if they have relaxed the corridor regs. Last year one circled around south of me, possibly over Dulwich, and I saw parachutists jumping from it, perhaps for an event in a park.

It is amusing when large helicopters do follow the Thames, as seen from this area, because the river is so curved that the helicopter just seems to be zig-zagging back and forth.

[chevvron]

cyflyer: it wouldn't be impossible; there's an Mi8 transport somewhere in the country and Aces High at Dunsfold have a 'Hind' attack helicopter in their inventory.
Where I live close to the western end of H3, we regularly get Chinooks flying over between
9 pm and midnight heading east towards London

[SpringHeeledJack]

Last year one circled around south of me, possibly over Dulwich, and I saw parachutists jumping from it, perhaps for an event in a park.

Wow, that's something you don't see everyday in the city. As you say (i hope!) an event where the RAF were showing off their prowess. There is, btw, a large hospital by Dulwich where injured military personnel are sometimes treated and they arrive by Chinook in severe cases. The helicopter lands in a small park adjacent and often does a few circuits before committing to landing there. Always very impressive (and noisy :ok:)



SHJ

[joy ride]

Thanks SHJ! I expect medical flights to Dulwich would not necessarily pass near me; the ones I have see several times have been East to West, but seemed to be north of Dulwich but I may be wrong. It just struck me as odd that all of a sudden I spotted them flying over urban sprawl.

The one which dropped parachutists came from the north and right over us heading about SSW. I think I remember seeing coloured smoke from the parachutists, suggesting "eventl" rather than "military action".

[DaveReidUK]

Oddly, over the last couple of years I have seen more and more Chinooks and Merlins ignoring the bends in the river and cutting straight across South London, and I have been wondering if this was allowed for special flights or if they have relaxed the corridor regs.Following the prescribed routes is only mandatory for single-engined helicopters and so would not apply to Chinooks or Merlins.

[chevvron]

Kings College Hospital is north of Dulwich and often has visitors but they're more often than not Sea Kings. Don't know of any hospital actually in Dulwich, but then I only know the area 'cos my wife came from there!

[joy ride]

Thanks Dave, I have seen far fewer Merlin's so not sure about their normal route but I estimate that about 80% of Chinooks I notice do follow the river. Perhaps I notice Chinooks more because of the extra noise!

[joy ride]

Not a helicopter but saw another very unusual flight path last year just before the Olympics started. A Royal Flight RJ/146 flew fairly low and eastbound right over my property, heading for Docklands. A few months later another flew in that way, never seen any other plane take that route. I think all on board would have got a spectacular view turning fairly close and tight around Canary Wharf before landing. People in the high buildings at Canary Wharf will also have had quite a surprise. Noblesse Oblige, I presume!

[ExRAFRadar]

Used to see a fair few Apaches as well going up/down the river

[goldox]

The one which dropped parachutists came from the north and right over us heading about SSW. I think I remember seeing coloured smoke from the parachutists, suggesting "eventl" rather than "military action".


When I lived in Dulwich many moons ago I saw regular parachutist displays into Brockwell Park, usually during the Lambeth Country Fair or similar events. Not sure if they still do this?

I also seem to recall one chute going a bit off target and landed either in the trees or in the road!?

[MOPC]

Not sure I agree with you Dave, when cleared in, you will request and be given a prescribed route i.e. H4 - H3 and you are to follow the route (unless subsequently vectored by ATC to, for example, deconflict with other traffic), corner cutting isn't the norm regardless of your a/c type - the single engine rule applies to certain routes/areas because of the requirement to be able to land clear in the event of an engine failure...

By the way, the Chinook on Friday was flying Air Cadets for an experience flight following a routine sortie from Odiham

[cyflyer]

Cadets go up in Chinooks for rides over London nowadays ? It was Chipmunks from Abington back in my day, long long time ago (in a galaxy far far away).........

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

MOPC. Twin-engined helicopters may be given direct routes off the helicopter routes, although it's long ago that I was au fait with the exact rules.

[MOPC]

Heathrow Director - I totally agree, ATC can pretty much do what they want with you, however, to quote the HLS Directory - "the precise routes which must be adhered to are portrayed on the Map entitled Helicopter Routes in London, corner cutting is to be avoided."

[chevvron]

cyflyer: the RAF don't put on flights especially for cadets apart from at AEFs (Tutors nowadays) however during the Summer Camp period which we are now in, cadets are often carried on training flights or flights where there is space. For instance at Cranwell, a cadet would be carried in the aircaft used for the morning weather check; when I did camp there it was a JP, nowadays I dare say it's a Tucano. If you scrounge you can get some marvellous flights. When we went to Valley for instance, we were told adult staff could scrounge a Hawk ride on sorties where the instructor would normally fly solo. I got 1 1/2 hours in the back seat of a Hawk!!

[DaveReidUK]

Not sure I agree with you Dave, when cleared in, you will request and be given a prescribed route i.e. H4 - H3 and you are to follow the route (unless subsequently vectored by ATC to, for example, deconflict with other traffic), corner cutting isn't the norm regardless of your a/c type - the single engine rule applies to certain routes/areas because of the requirement to be able to land clear in the event of an engine failure..."Whilst single engine helicopters must always follow the helicopter routes, it should be noted that multi-engine helicopters can be provided with an air traffic control clearance to transit elsewhere throughout the London CTR."

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/EIS%2006.pdf

[MOPC]

I agree Dave, but to quote your link: Pilots should fly precise routes as depicted in the chart - "corner cutting is to be avoided"

Just because an aircraft is capable of maintaining safe flight with a SE failure doesn't mean they can gash off the route and straight line it down the Thames!

ME RW can indeed travel where SE can't and be given clearances that would be inappropriate for SE but, when following a route, you are to follow that route - unless subsequent clearance or vectoring is given.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

MOPC. Helicopters don't cut corners on the prescribed route and twin engined helicopters usually follow the standard routes. Direct routing is often used for helicopters which would be delayed by using the prescribed routes. Typically, from south of the zone direct to Battersea, from the BNN area direct to Battersea and transit flights over the west side of the zone.

[MOPC]

I do agree with both HD and Dave, I think our interpretations of the rules are fairly similar, however the point which caught my interest was Joy Ride's initial query of "more and more Chinooks and Merlins ignoring the bends in the river... have [they] relaxed the corridor regs."

My thoughts were no they haven't, helicopters are expected to follow the routes as per the map regardless of type, but you're right, direct routing is definitely practised regularly as you say to avoid delays etc

[Defruiter]

As a current SVFR controller, I can say that although we rarely clear aircraft to cut the corners, and rarely helicopters ask to do it, occasionally you will see aircraft cut the corners. This happens a lot on H3 between Barnes and Thorpe (Though it is a very difficult route to follow from the air). It happens occasionally on H4, which should be fairly easy to follow though. (We will sometimes ask helicopters to cut the corner between London Bridge and the I.O.D if we have traffic that might effect into/out of London City and the helicopters are in a hurry.

[MOPC]

Defruiter, thanks for clarifying, that was the point I was aiming at!

[pax britanica]

Living where I do close to Sandhurst RMA military helicopters-along with automatic weapon fire are just part of the background noise to day to day life. Lots of Odiham based Chinooks up and down M3 or skipping around the London TMA and army Pumas and Lynxs in and out of Sandhurst- delivering senior officers? Familiarity training for cadets ?

We get used to it but the site of a three ship of Apaches very low still catches the eye especially when armed to the teeth and very very low - . Certainly would not like to see one of those that close in earnest -very menacing -makes the Surrey plod chopper look very meek- perhaps they should try using them for motorway crime but perhaps not that PC lol

[JEM60]

Ah, Chevron, those were the days!! Chipmunks at White Waltham, Beverleys, Hastings ,Ansons at Abingdon, and the best one of all, 45 mins in a Vampire T11 from Shawbury, all around Snowdonia, aeros, formation with two others. Best 45 mins as a passenger I have ever had, and that included flight-decking Concorde!!!!!

[teeteringhead]

It must be one of the most stunning big city transits for the crews, especially at night.

It is!! :ok::ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<skipping around the London TMA>>

Methinks you mean the London Control Zone?

[pax britanica]

HD
I do indeed and stand corrected
PB