Grobs

[Epsilon minus]

I hear of more recent and serious problems with this troubled aeroplane:
Backlog of trainee pilots as Tutor aircraft fleet is grounded - Defence Management (http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=23092)
I can find 2 AAIB reports on this type and I am informed that it is still unreliable. Why on earth did they get rid of the Firefly?
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Grob%20G115E%20Tutor,%20G-BYWH%2001-11.pdf

[Epsilon minus]

BBC News - Plane crash lands in field near RAF Cranwell (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20961632)

[airpolice]

Old news.

Normal ops are to resume on Monday.

[just another jocky]

EFT students have started flying again at Wyton already. :ok:

[sharpend]

Quote 'Why on earth did they get rid of the Firefly?'

Bigger question, why on earth did they get rid of the Bulldog? We all know the answer to that. And in case you don't, it was not because it was no good. It is better than Grob or Firefly

[NutLoose]

Wasn't the Bulldog coming to its spar fatigue life, though to be honest in the scheme of things resparing them would have been cheap. I've respared several light aircraft, no great sweat..

[Tiger_mate]

As a recipient of Tutor ASIMs, I am dreading next week. I wish I had a £ for every one I have had in recent weeks, but what is worrying, is that a blind man can see trends particularly wrt oil leaks and engine RPM doing its own thing.

The aeroplane is a dog and they should have upgraded Bulldog.

[Just This Once...]

I really enjoyed the Bulldog but on my first solo it waved the RPM needle at me before dumping its oil across the screen.

I think it improved my landing.

It was a cracking aeroplane though and whilst my Tutor experience is limited to a couple of trips it did not feel like a proper ac when compared to the 'dog.

Did have a trip in a Firefly with an accomplished and rather mad friend of mine and the little thing was awesome!

[just another jocky]

Lordy, you lot talk some twaddle.

The DASORs (ASIMS is the system, not the report) have been mandated to be put in for even the slightest reason so HQ 3FTS can keep a close eye on how the ac are taking to the new prop. In days past, most of them wouldn't have been posted.

The rest is commercially sensitive, hence you shouldn't hear about it on here.

[Evalu8ter]

Nutloose,
1 Dog was actually re-sparred by BAe to 'prove' the design. The problem was the price that t'Baron quoted for doing the fleet; thinking they had the RAF over a barrel the price was circa £10k plus 500 hrs labour (ie about £35-40K per ac). The MoD said a polite 'no thanks' and took their business elsewhere.

See this thread http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/499765-bulldog-spar-mod.html

I've flown all 3 (Dog on UAS, Firefly on JEFTS and Grob on the AEF) and the Dog is, by far, the most military of the three - it also has good visibility, nice stability and an acceptable rate of roll. The Grob has none of those three but does a nice flick roll and seems to glide forever.....The Firefly is the classic 'inbetweener' in my book.

Now, I'm in a desk job and itching to start AEF again.....hurry up!!

[Qfeye]

Airpolice.

Normal Ops to resume on Monday? Where exactly? By normal Ops you mean moving ac around from places various to fill gaps to appear normal.....:=

[Bob Viking]

Don't let your rose tinted specs cloud your vision. Sure the Bulldog was good at its job but I'd take a Firefly 260 any day. I did JEFTS Church Fenton and rated the FF above the Grob.
I flew the Jaguar, loved every second of it and would happily fly it again but I'm not going to pretend it was better than its successor.
What I'm getting at is that time moves on and progress must be made. It's too easy to remember the aircraft we flew as being the best there could ever be but that is rarely the case.
If it were not for the prop/engine problems I would definitely prefer the Grob to the Bulldog. It's a more modern and capable aircraft.
I'll jump down from my soapbox now if I may.
BV

[JTIDS]

The tutor is also a fundamentally more survivable aircraft in the event of a crash than the Bulldog ever was, an important attribute for an EFT plane.

[Easy Street]

The Bulldog may not have had the excess power of the T260 or even the Tutor, and it could bite if you didn't fly the spin recovery correctly, but it handled like a military aeroplane - solid, tight, not at all sloppy, could be smacked down like a jet. Unlike the thinly-disguised-motor-glider Tutor, with its flimsy undercart and dreadfully lethargic roll rate (unless flicked, of course - a very useful skill in all other military aircraft :hmm:). The old 'Dog was a superior EFT machine IMHO.

[pitotheat]

Any ideas as to who is paying the final bill? Grob, SERCO or HM? How long will it take for the FTS staff to be refreshed, Quarterlies completed and CFSd before they can start training students? It's a mammoth task getting this train set rolling again.

[just another jocky]

BV - well said m8. :ok:

ES - not sure how many jets we "smack down" these days; perhaps you were referring to F4/Bucc which were designed for higher impact landings for carrier work. :confused: Not really relevant these days methinks.

ph - no idea & don't care really. :E Yr correct though, it is a long job getting back to currency but EFT students are flying again and the backlogs will be cleared.

I wont get into the argument about what makes a better EFT trainer. The Tutor is what we have and what we must work with....the rest is irrelevant. It is cheap to run, reliable (usually ;)) and requires a students full attention to fly well. Perhaps it isn't the ideal ac; I wish it would climb faster, but what ac has ever been ideal? Everything has its flaws.

[airborne_artist]

Those with a fondness for the Dog seem to forget its rather poor inverted flight fuel system. With proper fuel-injection it would have been so much better, but that wasn't really an option when the Bulldog was being specced.

[A and C]

I think it is necessary to understand that the UK authority's decided to buy the lighter Hoffman propeller for the aircraft rather than the more robust MT propeller.

This decision has come back to haunt them and eventually resulted in the replacement of the propellers on the whole fleet.

[Epsilon minus]

A quick poll seems to indicate that the Grob is not up to the job in terms of design and reliability and possibly, build quality.
We can see that MP's are "seriously" concerned with the backlog of student pilots waiting to complete EFTS (or get chopped in some cases), so - questions:

1) Is it now time to ditch the Grob in favour of a better trainer? Nothing wrong with the T67M and our American friends agreed with this.

2) Is the EFTS service provider paying punitive contractual fees for failing to deliver?

3) Is it possible that a combination of English weather and an unreliable aeroplane will lead to a shortage of front line pilots?

[NutLoose]

Nothing wrong with the T67M and our American friends agreed with this.



Ermmmm

One Week From Deadline, T-3A Fleet Nearly Gone | Aero-News Network (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=0a9b8270-18f8-41a4-b7a5-4e6bfac5b888)

[Epsilon minus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slingsby_T67_Firefly

The USAF bought 113 of them - Slingsby must have done something right!

[NutLoose]

Then scrapped them lock, stock and spares, see previous post.

[just another jocky]

A quick poll...

Of whom by whom?

[A and C]

An interesting post with little basis in fact, the only major problem with the Tutor is the propellor and that is being addressed.

There are no major structural issues with the aircraft, some time back there was a gear collapse but this was due to loads beyond the certification requirements.

I am guessing that you might have seen a report from an MoD agency that is critical of the manufacturing quality control, Unfortunatly this report failed to understand the use of thickened resin and assumed that this was a defect in manufacture.

I would be quite happy to operate the Grob Tutor to the limits of the flight manual provided it was fitted with the MT propellor.

[Epsilon minus]

Since the Grob is the sole provider of EFT for all 3 services the airworthiness and operational reliability must be beyond doubt.

The BBC, the Times and the Daily Mail have all carried lengthy reports regarding the grounding of the entire fleet. In one report a defence official describes the operational reliability of the aeroplane as "a fiasco".

There are 40 AAIB incident reports on this type.

The press also express concern that there is a backlog of over six months of student pilots waiting for training and this is now concerning politicians and rightly so.

This Indian Air Force experienced reliability problems with the HPT-32 and now this aeroplane has been replaced by the Pilatus PC 7 MkII.

No doubt the highly skilled staff of the MOD procurement office will have anticipated just this sort of "road block" in the training requirement and have carefully worded clauses into the agreements with service providers to get out of this mess quickly. Now is the time to evoke them (doubt they exist :{ ) I would say.

[A and C]

The first thing to say is of the 40 AAIB reports what number are directly attributable to aircraft reliability issues ?

As for quoting the press on technical matters surely you are on shakey ground, after all just take a look at piece about the Tornado & Glider airprox a masterpiece of accurate reporting if ever a saw one !

The major problem with the Grob fleet has been the reluctance to grasp the nettle on the propeller issue, this has now been done so as soon as all new propellers can be manufactured and fitted I see the type returning to service with the types major issue resolved.

[ASRAAM]

A and C

If I were writing a certification requirement for an aircraft the ability of the undercarriage assembly to withstand the maximum amount of braking a pilot can apply would definitely be on my list.

[A and C]

You make a very good point and I agree with you.

I expect that the rules were written in days when the whole braking system was not capable of so much retardation, the Grob has quite big brakes, modern tyres and was braking on a high friction surface, all these factors stacking up to make the certification requirements obsolete.

I suspect that with older types put in the same position the aircraft would have simply collided with the aircraft ahead as the ineffective braking system failed to retard the aircraft quickly enough.

[sitigeltfel]

AAIB report on propeller problems issued.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Grob%20G115E%20Tutors%20G-BYUB%20and%20G-CGKC%2011-13.pdf