Why no royals in fast jets?

[tartare]

All this royal baby stuff on t'telly and a discussion with young Tartare about how William flies a yellow helicopter got me wondering.
Suspect I know the answer... but Charles and Andy ultimately both flew helicopters, as do Wills, and sometimes Harry.
Is there a deliberate preference in the services to eventually deploy their RHs to rotary wing?
Why have we not seen a Royal flying fast jets for a job - public perception that it might be too dangerous/expensive?
I assume when it comes to flying ability, they're treated just like any other chap?

[dl_88]

could it be that Putting them in rotary wings would satisfy both camps of it "being relatively safer than fast jet" but at the same time allow them to go on ops?

[500N]

Charles and William seem to be held back from being allowed
to fight on the front line so that would rule them out.

Harry was never going to be a flyer until he needed an avenue
to get back to the war.

Andrew - he joined the Navy and was streamed Rotary ?

When was the last time the Royal Family had 3 Combat veterans still alive,
which would have been 4 if Mountbatten was still alive ?

[Tiger_mate]

Andrew was 'not selected' FJ. .......but could have been, however unlike the RAF who had a selection of aircraft upon which to build up experience in a less demanding role, selection for Andrew would have meant Sea Harrier, and he wasn't good enough.

......and besides which (and having spoken to him about it) there is not an aviators bone in his body. Quote: "I do not miss flying a single iota", which no true aviator would ever he heard saying.

[High_Expect]

There is also the cost factor and length of training. One tour isn't great value for money for all that training. I'm sure someone can provide the exact figures but I bet it's over double for FJ.

[Milo Minderbinder]

? I thought Charles qualified as a Phantom pilot (or maybe Bucc....... can't remember for sure) during his time in the Navy

[Door Slider]

You can't carry any Close Protection personnel in a jet. Granted you can't in an Apache either but the operational range is not quite the same.

[tartare]

Web says Charles flew the Provost in training...
Sorry - am civilian driver of bugsmasher - what does FP personnel mean?

[Tashengurt]

When you consider that we're talking about essentially, four people here it seems that the odds of any of them getting through to fast jets are pretty slim.


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[Tashengurt]

When you consider that we're talking about essentially, four people here it seems that the odds of any of them getting through to fast jets are pretty slim.


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[B Fraser]

Yes, given that they almost outnumber the fast jets these days. ;)

[airborne_artist]

I was a year ahead of the Duke of York in the Dark Blue flying training system.

Let's just say that while he was a very good stick monkey, the same person from a normal background might not have marched up the steps after two terms at BRNC. His chances of a FJ seat after that must have been zero.

[beardy]

I have been told that Prince Charles would have liked to flown the F4, but it was deemed too unsafe for the heir to the throne. The portrait of him (I believe at Cranwell) as a young pilot has an F4 on the ground in the background.

[NutherA2]

? I thought Charles qualified as a Phantom pilot (or maybe Bucc....... can't remember for sure) during his time in the Navy
HRH did not fly during his RN career, but did command a minesweeper, HMS Bronington,

Following completion of his flying training in the RAF on the JP, his instructor, Dick Johns, brought him up to Leuchars to visit 43(F) Sqn as one item in "Operation Golden Eagle". He was given one trip in the back seat of Phantom FG1 piloted by Wg Cdr "Hank" Martin.

[Tankertrashnav]

No disgrace in their achievement. I knew several guys who had been turned down for fast jets and who went on to become very competent and experienced captains of multi engined/crew aircraft. When my course graduated there were in fact no F4/Buccaneer slots available, but I very much doubt if I'd have been offered one. You have to be realistic about your own skills, and just make sure you do the best in the job you get as William and Harry have certainly done.

[teeteringhead]

When was the last time the Royal Family had 3 Combat veterans still alive,
which would have been 4 if Mountbatten was still alive ? ... and of course if Lord Louis had lived to be 113!

And don't forget that Edward VIII/Duke of Windsor was a WW 1 MC, and he was only 6 years older than Mountbottom.

More recently, Duke of Kent served in Cyprus and (briefly) in Norn Iron with the Royal Scots Greys - in the latter case before the good old Press grassed him up and he swiftly left - nothing new eh Harry. He wears a Cyprus medal and the next one (unclear in photos) may well be a GSM.

As to the answer to 500N's question, I would guess post war (WW2) maybe even 60s or 70s - when Lord Louis and Duke of Windsor were still with us. I'll do some more research and try and answer the question more accurately.

[Edited to answer the exam question]

The short answer is 28th May 1972, when Duke of Windsor died. The three were:

Duke of Windsor - MC 1916

Duke of Edinburgh - MiD (and Greek War Cross of Valour) - Battle of Cape Matapan 1941

Duke of Gloucester (Prince Henry, present Duke's father) - WIA as 2 i/c of 20 Armd Bde serving with BEF in France in 1940 (his staff car was strafed).

You will note I have excluded Mountbatten who was not strictly Royal Family - he was never an HRH. If we do include him we can run forward the date for "latest 3" to Prince Henry's death - 10th June 1974.

And of course until his death (8th February 1952) we can also include George VI who was MiD at the Battle of Jutland in 1916. He transferred to the RNAS and then the RAF on its formation, and was serving at Air HQ in France at the end of WW1. That would make 4 Royals to Feb '52.

And finally - Prince Michael of Kent also has a Cyprus UN medal for his service there in 1971 on armoured cars with 11th Hussars.

[Fareastdriver]

When I passed out of the fast jet Vampire stream in 1962 apart from one FGA slot all the rest of us were posted to the V force. One of us, the Marquis of Douglas and Clydesdale, later to become the Duke of Hamilton, was somewhat peeved by this. His reasoning was that as he was in the teens as far as the queue for the throne was concerned he was not going to be a co-pilot and a vassal to a commoner.

Not surprisingly his posting was changed to Canberras.

[rab-k]

Not the Duke of Rothesay's finest hour...

Prince Charles has difficult landing. (AP) (http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/UK-Prince-Charles-Has-Difficult-Landing/dc7271fcb3ed4380e4c4f32bee251f5f?query=UK+ROYALS&current=14&orderBy=Relevance&hits=85&referrer=search&search=%2Fsearch%3Fquery%3DUK%2520ROYALS%26allFilters%3DTran sportation%3ASubject%2CRoyalty%3ASubject&allFilters=Transportation%3ASubject%2CRoyalty%3ASubject&productType=IncludedProducts&page=1)

[matkat]

Milo, I can confirm Charles flew in the back seat of a Bucc. I know because I was part of the VAS see in team at Lossie at the time, IIRC it flew of the Ark.

[Splash1983]

Re NutherA2's post above:

HRH The PoW did fly during his RN Career on the Wessex HU Mk5 with the Junglies - on Red Dragon Flight of 845 NAS in 1974.

[Union Jack]

HRH did not fly during his RN career

So it's time for a gander at the Prince's own website, www.princeofwales.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/Timeline%20-%20Naval%20Career.pdf (http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/Timeline%20-%20Naval%20Career.pdf) (which also covers his Royal Air Force time) and, Oh look, here's an interesting extract:

"1974

2nd September to 20th January 1975 - HRH joined the Royal Naval Air Station Yeovilton for helicopter flying training until13th December, and then pursued further helicopter training before joining 845 Squadron (Wessex V Commando Support Squadron).


1975

March to June - HRH embarked in HMS Hermes with 845 Squadron (to Caribbean and Eastern Canadian waters).:ok:

Jack

[teeteringhead]

His reasoning was that as he was in the teens as far as the queue for the throne was concerned Sadly by the time of his death in 2010, the Duke of Hamilton had been relegated to (at least!) the 50s in line, as by then the Protestant descendants of the three sons of George V who did procreate had got to nearly 50.

So the current (16th) Duke of Hamilton - son of Fareastdriver's colleague - has been overtaken by the likes of Senna Lewis (#28), Rufus Gilman (#30), Cassius Taylor (#38) and Zenouska Mowatt (#49).

Some wonderful potential Kings' and Queens' names there!

[charliegolf]

My daughter and SIL are regularly heard to say of me, "How does he know all that useless ****?"

Seriously Teeters, how do you know all this ****?:ok:

CG

[Thomas coupling]

I'm not 100% certain but didn't Prince William do a trial on Hawks?
I guess, fast jet isn't somewhere to put a full time royal is it? His roster would be all over the place and jet jocks are like rocking horse....you know what. Once they qualify - you would want your pound of flesh out of them.
Not a cost effective option methinks.

[teeteringhead]

Seriously Teeters, how do you know all this ****?
..... Son-and-Heir and the Teeterettes (not to mention Milady Teeters) often say the same thing ......

..... I am available for Pub Quiz teams at very reasonable rates!! :ok:

[Edited to answer CG's question]

Arthur Conan Doyle The Adventure of the Lion's Mane "But how did you know, Mr. Holmes?"

"I am an omnivorous reader with a strangely retentive memory for trifles."

Sam Johnson: Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information upon it.

[teeteringhead]

I'm not 100% certain but didn't Prince William do a trial on Hawks?
As recent photographs have shown, Prince William is a spectacle-wearer, depending on the prescription this may be easier on rotary than FJ - HUDs etc.

Apparently he also has very slightly defective colour vision - as did his mother - which might also be a factor. And some colour deficiency problems are I believe exacerbated by altitude or low partial O2 pressure.

[A and C]

I would suggest that the role of FJ pilot requires 100% focus on the task and that with all the other royal duties to do no one could maintain the focus required.

So the person would become ineffective as a front line pilot at best and a danger to them selfs ( and others ) at worst.

[F4TCT]

So whats William going to do when the sea kings are retired?

I personally hate the royals and don't see how multiple members of the same family are good enough for the military. If they were civvies, i bet none of them would get in the RAF in the first place.

Annoys the bloody hell out of me that they do a couple a years service to show the country they have done something and then never take to the skies again, albeit in a private capacity. Not as if they can't afford to maintain hours is it.

Biggest mistake of my life NOT going in the RAF.

Dan

[Flying Lawyer]

F4TCT

I personally hate the royalsBiggest mistake of my life NOT going in the RAF.Do you think service life was for you? :confused:

Annoys the bloody hell out of me that they do a couple a years service The Duke of York served 22 years.


FL

[Torque Tonight]

The royals say lovely things about you though Dan.

Biggest mistake of my life NOT going in the RAF.
At least then you would know you'd been rejected rather than always having doubts about what might have been.:ok:

[Tashengurt]

So the answer comes down to ability, physical limits and commitment.
About the same as the general population then?


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[Genstabler]

F4TCT
What a bitter, unpleasant, inaccurate and unnecessary post. Your own unfortunate experience seems to have warped your personality to the point that you can express hatred of members of a family you don't even know. You are of course entitled to your opinions. Please don't share them with us.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Perhaps the 'powers' have been waiting for Prince George.

How fast they will be in circa 2035 is pure conjecture.

[Roland Pulfrew]

don't see how multiple members of the same family are good enough for the military

Perhaps because they understand the concepts of loyalty, service and dedication to duty. And out of interest, why shouldn't they be "good enough"? :rolleyes:

Let's face it, Charles and William as heirs to the Throne were never going to be allowed to do the frontline combat jobs that Andrew and Harry have done. That said, having flown top cover for more than one Sea King sortie, being a SAR pilot isn't the least demanding or least dangerous role a future king might participate in!!

[F4TCT]

Sorry you feel that way.

I made a choice not to go in the RAF, i wasn't rejected.

A part of me wishes I had gone in.

I appreciate any person who has served me and the rest of this population by doing their time, however I dislike the royals greatly.

You then have the idiots running this country...

Threads veering off.

I'll say no more.

[John Eacott]

HRH did not fly during his RN career, but did command a minesweeper, HMS Bronington,

Here's Chaz not flying during his Navy career....

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/1422-1/PoW+Wessex+V.jpg

But back to the thread title: why would they want to fly fast jets? :p

[airpolice]

F4TCT wrote:
I personally hate the royals and don't see how multiple members of the same family are good enough for the military. If they were civvies, i bet none of them would get in the RAF in the first place.


F4TCT, do you actually know any of the people that you hate?

I know a chap who has just retired as a Major in the RMP. His mum was a Nurse, Dad was ATC and his uncle was a Vulcan Captain, all three had reached Flt Lt on retiral so he has outranked all of them.

Why would being from the same family preclude any group of people from serving in the military?

[teeteringhead]

I would suggest that the role of FJ pilot requires 100% focus on the task and that with all the other royal duties to do no one could maintain the focus required.
I would suggest that certainly applies to ALL military pilots, and - I would hope but have no knowledge - to all pilots of any sort....

[Mad_Mark]

F4TCT...
I'll say no more.
Good :rolleyes:

[500N]

teeteringhead

Thanks for the investigative work. Interesting.

:ok:

[Mad_Mark]

I would suggest that the role of FJ pilot requires 100% focus on the task
Ahh, that's why he went SAR then. No need for him to be 100% focused on the task whilst in the hover alongside a cliff face in gusting wind and poor viz, or battling through mountains in blizzards, or fighting to maintain the correct winching height over a pitching and heaving boat deck in sea state 6, or....

A and C = Tw@ :ok:

[Madbob]

For what it's worth I spent 10 years in the RAF and wasn't good enough to fly fast jets and my destiny was multi-engine and subsequently ATC but that's another story.....

As for your prejudiced attitude about members of the Royal Family in the Armed Services I can only say that my impression of HRH Prince Andrew as a pilot in the FAA is a very positive one.

1. After the Falklands War (when he was a Sea King co-pilot, principally flying anti-submarine missions) he trained as a Lynx pilot and was embarked on HMS Broadsword. Early 1985 he had an engine failure whilst flying near Stanley and made a single-engine precautionary landing which he and single crewman dealt with very successfully. (The naval Lynx is multi-role and is flown by a single pilot.)

2. After an engine change in-situ he flew it out and back to his ship.

3. A few days later a spare engine was flown in to Stanley by Hercules (to replace the one that had been used) and this was prepared as an under-slung load to be flown out to Broadsword. By the time this was ready to go it was getting dark and the wind in the FI's is seldom light and the sea state seldom calm. This didn't stop HRH again flying in to collect said load and taking it back to mother.

To me that all takes a fair amount of skill, and for which I am prepared to respect his ability as a pilot and one who then was perhaps just 25 years old. He was responsible for a valuable aircraft, his crewman and operating in a very un-forgiving environment.

Only a small percentage of people can claim to have the potential aptitude to be a military pilot, the training is tough, it lasts for up to three years and many fail along the way......HRH's Andrew, William and Harry all should be treated with greater respect and perversely, in many ways their background makes it tougher to succeed than for "ordinary" trainees, as they are all in the spotlight and everyone is expecting them to screw-up.

As J F Kennedy said

http://quotationsbook.com/assets/images/lay/quote-open.jpg For of those to whom much is given, much is required...... http://quotationsbook.com/assets/images/lay/quote-close.jpg

MB

[Thomas coupling]

There is a world of difference coming off the back of a carrier in a Sea King at night at say a walking speed and doodling up to 200' and then bimbling along at 90kts for miles before automatically transitioning down "hands off" ...as a two pilot crew to the hover, AND

Going from o to 200kts, pulling "X" G, finding you are 50 feet off the oggin passing thru 300kts doing everything yourself 'cos you are on your own.

It takes a special type of application (to be polite to all aviators) to the task to stay alive.

Jet Jocks have always been the elite aviators for obvious reasons.

Not to say there are scary moments in SS9, maintaining station over a submarine mast, connected to it via a wire and trying to recover an injured sailor, pitch black....but it only accounts for about 20% of your total time in scare mode.

Jet jocks must be 60% plus ........:eek:

[Roland Pulfrew]

your total time in scare mode

Jet jocks must be 60% plus ........


Really. :hmm: If it was they would be gibbering wrecks in days/weeks.

Mind you, that does come to explain a few things.:E

[Davef68]

As recent photographs have shown, Prince William is a spectacle-wearer, depending on the prescription this may be easier on rotary than FJ - HUDs etc.

Apparently he also has very slightly defective colour vision - as did his mother - which might also be a factor. And some colour deficiency problems are I believe exacerbated by altitude or low partial O2 pressure.


I do recall HRH's eyesight being quietly mentioned at the time of his initial RAF service (At the time where he was spending time with the Navy and the RAF to learn about the other services).

[Bob Viking]

Why do threads like this always turn into willy waving contests? Rotary and FJ flying each have their own unique challenges. I'm a 2300 hr FJ pilot but I have ultimate respect for the rotary chaps and the job they do. In some respects flying FJs is harder but in others helicopters are harder. Landing under fire or pulling someone off a deck at night is probably equally as scary as watching AAA come up to you at night. I've personally never experienced either. There's not a single part of me that would suggest I'm more 'elite' than a rotary mate. Better looking perhaps but that's irrelevant to this conversation.
As to the Royals I say never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. William and Harry are closer to my age so I identify more with them than Charles and Andrew (although I've met both of the older ones and their Dad) and I'd say they appear to be doing a bloody good job.
BV

[Pontius Navigator]

When was the last time the Royal Family had 3 Combat veterans still alive, which would have been 4 if Mountbatten was still alive ?

If you count Charles as a combat veteran then the total is 5 as both QE2 and DOE served in the last war.

Then if you count Mountbatten then you should also include Prince Michael of Kent and the Duke Kent. That would make 7.

[500N]

PN

Why would you count Charles as a Combat Veteran ?

teeteringhead included the other two in his analysis.

[Two's in]

I thought because they were all reasonably "handsome" (well, at least when they were young!) they were getting all the good looking birds anyway, so they didn't need to be FJ pilots to overcome their pulchritudinous shortcomings.

[Fareastdriver]

Jet Jocks have always been the elite aviators for obvious reasons.

I don't know what it was like in the Navy but in the Royal Air Force when I went through trainig you were streamed according to that month's requirement.

[teeteringhead]

Jet Jocks have always been the elite aviators for obvious reasons. Richtofen, Goering, Guynemer, Ball, Bader, Gibson, Cheshire ....... and Langworthy!

[Genstabler]

streamed according to that month's requirement

Blimey! I hope aptitude had some small part to play in selection!

[Union Jack]

Teeters

Very impressed - you really did take great care to ensure that your initial response was "Edited to answer the exam question" since 500N's question did indeed refer to "three" and not "three or more"!:ok:

If one takes PN's definition of a "combat veteran" which (with apologies to PN, whose posts I greatly enjoy), I don't, HRH Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, made a very substantial contribution to the war effort whilst her husband was Governor General of Canada.

Incidentally, and moving this thread even further off track, Princess Alice's brother could perhaps also have been considered a royal combat veteran up until his death in early 1954, having been HRH The Duke of Albany until early 1919, but unfortunately he ended up on the wrong side and with the rank of Obergruppenführer ....:uhoh:

Jack

[Wander00]

And HRH Princess Alice was Colonel in Chief of the Royal Corps of Transport

[Fareastdriver]

Whilst I was working in China one of my pilots described how he became a helicopter pilot.

He volunteered for the Naval branch of the Peoples Liberation Army. He had an engineering bent and was hoping to be a ship's engineer or something like that. He did the basic training, the political indoctrination and everything else required to pass out as a Chinese Naval officer. During this time they were not asked, or were there any aptitude tests, as to their future careers.

On successful completion they were lined up and a senior officer came down the row saying, "You are an Engineer, you are a Deck Officer, you are in Gunnery and so on. When he came to him he told him that he was going to be a helicopter pilot.

He did what he was told and eventually he came along to us.

I will give the PLA training system full marks. How on earth they managed to get him co-ordinated enough to fly a helicopter was completely beyond me.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Surely what this all suggests is that most well educated kids with enough motivation have a fighting chance at making to to Mil Rotary.
FJ is another matter, and that is just a numbers game. If you ain't in the 10% that can hack it, and then in the 30% of courses that need one you'll still end up a chopper puke.

And proud of it.

Sadly, if you're a top royal it may be seen as "safer" to put you in helos. Right/wrong we can argue tile the cows come home and even then we'll never know if it's reality. Live with it - an illustrious history of successful Royal pilots.

The boys done good. And still do. :D

[SASless]

To me that all takes a fair amount of skill, and for which I am prepared to respect his ability as a pilot and one who then was perhaps just 25 years old. He was responsible for a valuable aircraft, his crewman and operating in a very un-forgiving environment.

Lots of my Mates did that and more when we were aged 19-21.....does that make us qualified to be King?

[OutlawPete]

? I thought Charles qualified as a Phantom pilot (or maybe Bucc....... can't remember for sure) during his time in the Navy
HRH did not fly during his RN career, but did command a minesweeper, HMS Bronington,

Following completion of his flying training in the RAF on the JP, his instructor, Dick Johns, brought him up to Leuchars to visit 43(F) Sqn as one item in "Operation Golden Eagle". He was given one trip in the back seat of Phantom FG1 piloted by Wg Cdr "Hank" Martin.

If my memory is correct, the original F705 for that very trip was retained in the 43 (F) Sqn groundcrew trophy cabinet. Signed by HRH himself. Wonder what happened to it. There were some corkers in that cabinet!

[Agaricus bisporus]

Lots of my Mates did that and more when we were aged 19-21.....does that make us qualified to be King?

You take a dump every morning. How does that qualify you to be anything?

The relevance or logic (sic) of your post is utterly incomprehensible. (or it would be if it had any)

d'uh oh!

[Genstabler]

No, and it doesn't qualify him to be king either.

[SASless]

The only qualification for being King is being in the right place at the right time.....as mere accident of birth puts you in the queue....and all you can do is hope a vacancy opens up when you are next up.

I am sure Jug Ears is very familiar with that concept.....just that his Mum is being very slow in providing him the opportunity.

In fact....one can wonder if he should have taken up alternate pursuits as he might just miss getting to sit in the Big Chair the way things are going.

[Ancient Squipper]

Beardy- did you have to mention that portrait of Prince Charles and the F4? i have seen several units where it has taken "Pride of Place" usually in mess foyers. As a Squipper and a Phantom phreak I wince every time that I come across one. I am sure that it is a very nice portrait and it's not the artists fault that the Aircrew Equipment Assembly (Flying Clothing) Torso Harness/Lifepreserver that HRH is modeling must have come straight off the Clothing Store (Sorry- Supply Squadron) shelf.
No doubt it cost the RAF a fortune to have it painted so you would have thought that someone would have taken the time and trouble to provide kit that was complete and had at least seen the inside of a Survival Equipment Section to be assembled and fitted with it's survival aids.

OK-OK I know its just a painting.

At least i always made sure that Beagles kit was 100% when I was his F4 Squadron Cpl Survival Equipment Fitter.

Squipper at 74??. ONCE A SQUIPPER ALWAYS A SQUIPPER:rolleyes::p:rolleyes:

[Genstabler]

A rather tasteless post SASless.

[Thomas coupling]

Genstabler: He's a geriatric yank - what do you expect old boy!:}

[SASless]

Yes....all is true.....but being a Yank....we have no great love for the concept of Royalty.

As a Helicopter Pilot we can respect other Helicopter Pilots regardless of how Rank they are.;)

[tartare]

Lads - I should point out that the original question was not intended to provoke a knuck v/s chopper puke slanging match - just curious, that's all.
Personally I would have thought that trying to winch an injured climber off a Welsh peak in a gale with rotor blades a foot or two away from the granite would in it's own way be pretty much as scary as flying through gaps in said granite at 300 knots (and I have been through the Mach Loop).
Am a republican, but as much as one can judge from what one sees on the telly - Wills seems like a thoroughly decent young bloke, and so does Mrs Wills. Grounded, normal and happy. I think that's one of the reasons they're so popular with people.
Best wishes to them and to the nipper too.

[AdLib]

IIRC HRH had 2 JPs assigned, both of which were modified with Phantom (zero-zero) seats vs the rest of us who made do with the standard (zero-90) seats.

I'm with SASless on this, I'm not a fan of the Royalty 'concept' either. They're ok people (probably) and it would be wrong to arbitrarily remove their inheritance (subject to inheritance tax of course) but this is century 21. Royalty ... really?

Back to the thread ... I don't know.

[Basil]

rotor blades a foot or two away from the granite
Detachment to Singapore - met friend from JP training, now helicopter pilot, one of the big ones (Wessex or Whirlwind - I'm not an aircraft enthusiast so not sure which). Said colleague offers me trip in angry palm tree - Bas being 20-something is too stupid to demur.
Ex colleague flies Bas across to Malaya and demonstrates landing on hillside clearing half size of devilish machine. Tail rotor, which I believe to be essential for sustained controlled flight, must be 5cm from trees; Bas enthuses and suggests celebrate back at mess ASAP.
En route back hear "Mayday!" on radio. Think it's one of the Shacks lost yet another engine but NO! It's one of similar hellish works with jammed cyclic (I think that's what it's called) in spiral dive. Guy finally overpowers hydraulics as Satan's windmill is leaving wake in water. Pilot last seen in OM bar demolishing bottle of something which weren't soda water.


Bit of tongue in cheek above. My airline experience has been that ex helicopter pilots have, as we say, 'a good pair of hands'.
I wish I'd flown them in any of the services.

[Warmtoast]

Here's picture of three Kings with wings (two earned, one for show). Not sure what the equivalent mount would have been in those days to equate to a "Fast Jet", but assume given the chance they would have had a go.

No one seems to have mentioned the then Duke of Kent was killed in WW2 - an accident rather than KIA.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/ThreeKingsandWings.jpg

[Bob Viking]

Tartare.
Flying through valleys at 420 knots is not scary. I'd imagine mountain winching isn't scary either. Challenging or exhilarating perhaps. If you found them scary you probably shouldn't pursue either as a career.
BV

[Basil]

ONCE A SQUIPPER ALWAYS A SQUIPPER
Did you really understand where all those 'kin straps were meant to go? :p

I recollect having a standing invitation to go over to Colt (was it?) for a ride in the trainer but the thing which put me off was all the safety equipment and bang seat drills and then the T4 (?) may have been unavailable so I just went off from my ground tour and flew ATC cadets in the Chippy.
AND I HAVE KICKED MYSELF EVER SINCE!! *


* A bit more than I do for having to take up a civvy flying job and pass on RAF and RHA riding courses. The mil did have its plus points: sports, overseas expeditions, ciggies & booze at rock bottom prices (yeah, OK perhaps not so good for us :ouch:)

[tartare]

Precisely.
Never really understood the need to be able to eject zero zero, until I was strapped into a seat, oxygen hose and everything else connected and all those bloody straps.
If you needed to get out on the ground real quick - no other way - other than to pull that handle.
Bob - scary in a relative sense.
Must admit - both times (after climbing out of a`Macchi, and then a Hawk) I thought I could be run over now and die a happy man.
There are very few things that can match low altitude at high speed in a fast jet.

[Basil]

Bob,
Flying through valleys at 420 knots is not scary.
Yes, it 'kin is!!!
I still remember one of our Leeming JP instructors (Flt Lt Pyrah?) taking me on a QFI CT ride in 1966. We found a twisty valley, THE MAN set max thrust, put both hands on the pole and went up this valley going from 80deg left to 80deg right.
Was I scared? Suffice it to say that I was concerned; I didn't like the terrain under my ass to be out of sight - I don't trust ANYONE that much.

That may be one of the many reasons I'm a truckie. The RAF was a great experience for a 23yo who thought he was pretty good - he wasn't, well, not at flying aeroplanes compared with the best. :ok:

[Basil]

Genstabler, A rather tasteless post SASless.
Yes, although inelegantly put and by someone ill equipped to comment, it is a sad possibility which has crossed my mind but would silence Bolshie ad hominem attacks.

Although Bas is not anti establishment, royal family etc please do not infer that he does not understand from whence their power base came looking back 1000 years or more.

[Ken Scott]

but being a Yank....we have no great love for the concept of Royalty.


Really? The reception given to the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge in the USA would seem to contradict that assertion.

There were many Yanks amongst the crowd outside Buckingham Palace awaiting the news of the birth, all showing an enthusiasm for the Royals.

[parabellum]

The American tourist dollar is equal to about half the current UK GDP!;)

[SASless]

There is just no explaining some folks.....as anyone who goes bonkers over the birth of a baby....or crowning of a Monarch....or marriage of a couple.....as if they were Hollywood Celebrities or the equivalent....well they are welcome to do so...but that doesn't make it a really significant event in the scheme of things does it?

Kim Kardashian just popped a Kid.....so whoopee big deal!

The Prince and Princess seem nice people....but they are in the end....just folk like the rest of us. At least he is a Helicopter Pilot as is his Sibling.

They earned those Wings....and walk the walk.

That does not change the fact that Jug Ears has done nothing to really earn a great deal of respect....well like nothing really!

[Fareastdriver]

Egad! Edward is wearing turnups!

[Bronx]

SASless we have no great love for the concept of Royalty.
Ken Scott Really? The reception given to the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge in the USA would seem to contradict that assertion.
There were many Yanks amongst the crowd outside Buckingham Palace awaiting the news of the birth, all showing an enthusiasm for the Royals.
The two assertions are not inconsistent.

Most Americans are fascinated by British traditions, the quaint tradition of royalty, the romantic tradition of having a Queen, Princes and Princesses, the stuff of childhood fairy tales and story books. American tourists flock to see the world famous Buckingham Palace, the Changing of the guard and other pomp and circumstances spectacles that the Brits do better than anywhere else in the world. And for sure, William and Kate do seem to be a nice down to earth very likeable couple.

That does not mean Americans love the concept, the principle that someone gets to be the ruler of a country, actually or notionally, just by an accident of birth. The American ethos is that anyone what ever their family background should be able to get anywhere in life including the very top by hard work. The reality is it's not always as easy as that but it's still a fundamental American belief, just like Brits have their fundamental beliefs.


B.

[Genstabler]

Another tasteless post SASless. You are a Yank. You seem to worship your Hollywood celebrities and prefer your presidential system where the bloke who attracts the most dollars gets the job. OK, it's your country.
I value our constitutional monarchy form of government which has given us great stability for centuries. I also admire and respect most of our Royal Family who did not chose the job but were born into servitude and work bloody hard. Including Jug Ears as you rudely call him.
Keep your snide comments to your side of the Atlantic please.

[Bronx]

Genstabler

Pprune is an international website. He's just as entitled to express his opinions as you are.

I haven't noticed Brit posters holding back from criticizing things that happen in America and the American way of life, nor should they. Some even talk about 'Americans' as if we're all the same which we aren't, any more than Brits are all the same or all have the same opinions.

[EAP86]

ISTR Charles had 2 specially built JPs, (Golden Eagle?) which only he flew - special maintenance requirements too. Maybe the costs of a similar arrangement on a fast jet would be prohibitive?

[Thomas coupling]

Genstabler: SASless is alright...he's one of the good ones...just cool down a little eh? He has a point, there are Zilions out there who couldn't give a fig about the Royals....and rightly so in their world. No harm in it. I don't see anyone here raving about the Jordanian Royal Family or the King of Monaco.

It's just steeped in our history. I have had my fair share of mixing with the royals during my time. Believe me, William is different. He is so in tune with reality..he will transform the Monarchy beyond recognition and bring it into line with 21st century demands. He is also a competent and confident pilot.

SAS: Royalty gives us Brits a sense of belonging, it is our link with the past and all our history. It's hard not having the same over in Yank land, I know but we tried and failed to share ours with yours in the late 1800's. Never mind perhaps when Hilary becomes President..........;)

[Gerontocrat]

I don't know about special-build JPs for Golden Eagle, but I did once hear that the aircraft had to be half-lifed.

[Genstabler]

I agree. SASless is one of the good ones and usually writes a lot of sense. And of course he is entitled to his opinions.
However, for a Yank, on a predominantly Brit military forum, to belittle our monarchical system, to call the heir to OUR throne jug ears and say that he's never done anything useful in his life, could be construed as somewhat tactless, arrogant, even provocative. And yes, it angered me. I apologise for expressing my own opinion. I will try to improve.

[Tankertrashnav]

sasless - this whole accident of birth thing applies to all of us - not just royalty. You and I had the great good fortune to be born in stable countries, you in the wealthiest nation on earth, I in one that's not far behind. We both have had opportunities to develop our talents, unhindered by a repressive state or widespread poverty and corruption. We neither of us did anything to win this great prize, we just happened to strike lucky in the birth stakes. Where would either of us be if we had been born in the backstreets of Calcutta or an impoverished African village? True, I am never going to be king, but neither are you ever going to be president unless you are a multi-millionaire or have chums who are, which is certainly one of the criteria for your top job.

By the way I often go in American internet chatrooms and a soon as I introduce myself the first question is almost always "how's the Queen?". Maybe ironic, but there is a huge interest in our royalty from your side of the pond. Your media's obsession with our royalty is only matched by ours with American politics, which at election time we get force-fed to the point of nausea.

[GrahamO]

Maybe its because if you want to really get involved , then sitting at 60,000 feet pressing buttons in airspace dominated by your side isn't as exciting as it might seem ?

I'm not a pilot, but I imagine that being in the thick of it close to the ground, supporting people and assets you can physically see, sounds a darn sight more exciting than playing space invaders on an expensive computer and watching blips on screen. Its possibly a bit more like being a UAV pilot ?

Its possibly the difference between watching TV on your favourite subject or actually going out and getting involved.

But thats just my view.

[Ken Scott]

the principle that someone gets to be the ruler of a country, actually or notionally, just by an accident of birth. The American ethos is that anyone what ever their family background should be able to get anywhere in life including the very top by hard work.

Fine words in principle, but in practice?

Wealth & power in the USA as in most countries relies more often than not in the 'accident of birth' - your parents are wealthy & connected then you have a greater chance of achieving higher officer.

For evidence I would point at the Kennedys, 2 Bush Presidents, even potentially a second Clinton President. All of those people benefited from being connected usually by birth to a wealthy family.

I agree that our Royal Family is a fairly closed shop but as the former Kate Middleton demonstrates you can enter it.

SASless: I would appreciate your not insisting upon referring to our heir to the throne in that tasteless manner, you are merely reinforcing certain stereotypes about Americans which I am sure you would not wish to do. Mocking someone for a physical characteristic is bad form these days & besides, what has he done personally to you that prompts you to talk in an offensive way about him?

[Basil]

Recollect walking into a sports shop in Chicago years ago.
Guy in Shop: "What do you think of that Margaret Thatcher?"
Bas: "Er, um, well, she's the best man in Britain!"
GiS: "Right on!" :)

[airborne_artist]

I agree that our Royal Family is a fairly closed shop but as the former Kate Middleton demonstrates you can enter it.


But very much on their terms. Ms Middleton had no bargaining power beyond her looks and some education.

[Basil]

On the royal theme, just rceived the following from a Brit resident in the US:

The newborn Prince George of Cambridge has already completed 3 of my bucket list ambitions:

1 become a millionaire;

2 meet the royal family;

3 play with Kate Middletons nipples.

[John Eacott]

I don't know about special-build JPs for Golden Eagle, but I did once hear that the aircraft had to be half-lifed.

The half life requirement produced the most inane alternative when HRH visited Ark Royal underway. Since the logistics of finding an 824 NAS Sea King to comply with the half life requirement was just Too Difficult, the heir to the throne was transferred from Minerva by the tried and true method:

http://www.hmsminerva.info/images/29_jackstay_transfer_RFA_Resurgent_Beira_June1970.jpg

(Not HRH, but a daft idea compared to a 2 minute winch and land on in a SK!)

[SASless]

Wealth & power in the USA as in most countries relies more often than not in the 'accident of birth' - your parents are wealthy & connected then you have a greater chance of achieving higher officer.

Well now....explain your Premise when you account for Bill Clinton, BH Obama,Eisenhower, and Harry Truman for starters.

Billy born in poverty, raised by a Single Mom.....

BH...the alleged Son of a visiting Kenyan Student, raised by a single Mom and her Parents.

Harry Truman who never had a Dime...and retired in Penury....whose plight provoked the Nation to create a Pension for Presidents.

Ike who grew up dirt poor in Kansas....obtained an Army Commission by means of the Military Academy....and later commanded all Allied Forces in Western Europe before becoming President.

Sorry....while Money talks such as the Roosevelts, Kennedys, and a few others.....we are very much different than the Royals treatment in the UK.


Tank.....all that being said.....remember my Grand Mother did cooked on a woodstove until my teens, had no indoor plumbing until my teens, and lived as a Sharecropper for most of her life. It wasn't the back streets of Calcutta....not by a long shot....but during the Depression it wasn't a whole lot better.

In those days and when I grew up....we had Opportunity and if we had the drive, ability, and education we could prosper.

That was the great benefit to growing up in my Country....one can live your Dream if you work hard enough and have the necessary tools to succeed.

I am not sure that is the situation today.....at least it is a lot harder today due to the growth of Government and the loss of Individual Freedom we are experiencing.


What has Jug Ears done to me......nothing. But he is in my estimation the pure essence of a "Pommy Bastard".....an arrogant one at that with a very poor choice in Women proved by his divorce and subsequent marriage.

[Shack37]

But very much on their terms. Ms Middleton had no bargaining power beyond her looks and some education.


Not so sure about that. Remember they split up for a while before getting back together permanently. There may have been some negotiating during the split, at least between the two main players.

Small Pedant Bit:
As I was taught in primary school many years ago, the King (as was then) does not RULE, he/she REIGNS.
Pedant Off

[Genstabler]

Stereotypes about arrogant Americans duly reinforced.

[NutherA2]

If you Google for a novel by Eugene Burdick and William Lederer you might perhaps conclude they had SASless in mind when choosing a title

[Archimedes]

Gen,

Be fair - SASless comes from a nation which has had 43 Presidents (44 Presidencies, but Grover Cleveland is numbered twice). Taking just Kings and Queens of England (with due acknowledegement to the Kings of Wessex before England became a nation and to the Scottish crown pre-James VI &I), we'd had 43 by the time that the state of Virgina was named after the Virgin Queen...

The rise of dynastic familial succession to positions of power and influence in the US in 2013 is now at the point we were in approximately 705AD. SASless's great-great-great-great [add a few more greats here] grandchildren will, in due course, wonder why the founding fathers blathered on about not having monarchs as they celebrate the birth of the next in line to the American throne.

Who'll end up as King Juan Pablo Augustin III when the time arrives...

(All suspcions that there is an element of fascetiousness in the above are entirely well-founded)

[parabellum]

Be difficult for an American, talking about an English heir to the throne as a 'Pommy Bastard', to be more deliberately and gratuitously offensive.:mad:

[DuncanMac]

Union Jack

HRH did not fly during his RN career

. . . 2nd September to 20th January 1975 - HRH joined the Royal Naval Air Station Yeovilton for helicopter flying training until13th December, and then pursued further helicopter training before joining 845 Squadron (Wessex V Commando Support Squadron).

As a kid, I recall HRH attending the Commando Training Centre, Lympstone, Devon, to complete part of the course - which all Naval pilots attached to the marines, did. His Close Protection Officers didn't look that happy wading through chest high water. Photos appeared in the "Globe & Laurel", the R.M. (then monthly) magazine.

Jimmy Savile undertook the whole course and was awarded a green beret . . . . of sorts. We kids got to meet him. I never really understood the milking of the cow game, whilst blindfolded. But after a clean up and a gargle, we got to meet him. He seemed okay.

[500N]

"His Close Protection Officers didn't look that happy wading
through chest high water."

Surprised they didn't engage soldiers from another regiment for CPP
during this phase of the course !

[DuncanMac]

500N

Surprised they didn't engage soldiers from another regiment for CPP during this phase of the course !

Hmmm, I think "course" is stretching it a tad, but he was on Woodbury Common - R.N./R.M. sacred ground. Perhaps SBS were loitering, but his Met Police C.P. suffered.

[500N]

Thanks

Did they really need to go in as well :O

[DuncanMac]

500N

Did they really need to go in as well

A recce for Ted.

[500N]

Didn't do him much good then, did it !!!


I would have liked to have done it myself.

[chiglet]

At least, their HRHs have joined up. :ok: Unlike some MPs various offspring :ugh:

[mopardave]

SASless................that you have a dislike for our monarchy bothers me not on iota.........where you, and your argument lose all credibility are the pointless and churlish references to his ears. I have many relations in the U.S.......not one of them would ever dream of being so rude to our monarchy.

Do tell, on which shoulder do you prefer to balance your chip?:ugh:

[500N]

chiglet
Agree.

I was surprised to read in this thread that Prince Andrew ended up
doing 22 years service. That's a full career. Not bad IMHO.
I think maybe people forget that.

[DuncanMac]

500N

Didn't do him much good then, did it !!!

I recall the t-shirts that staff were wearing at CTCRM, which sent the RSM ballistic: "Not So, Royal Marine" (no "s").

[Bob Viking]

Wow. Just wow.

[GreenKnight121]

Not so sure about that. Remember they split up for a while before getting back together permanently. There may have been some negotiating during the split, at least between the two main players.

From our viewpoint, and from what info made its way over here, it appeared that the split was not WilL & Kate's idea, but rather was pushed upon them in order for Will to "try to find a bride from the appropriate class".

Basically he was told by the advisers that there was no way they would let his grandmum approve the marriage, so he'd better look elsewhere. So he set out to prove that "No Kate, no heirs of mine".

Between that implied threat and the circumspect and proper behavior of both up to and after their rapprochement, HRH QEII made it clear that she'd much rather have Kate as granddaughter-in-law than have to rely on Harry to continue the line.

Remember Harry's antics around then... I suspect the brothers had colluded about how to make Kate look acceptable.


Not that her family are exactly poor... or even middle-class, for that matter.

Her uncle Gary was worth £17 million in 2005... part of which he spent on an 8-acre estate on the Spanish resort island of Ibiza.

Her parents, thanks to both their own work and inheritances (some of which came directly to Kate, Pippa, and other children), were able to access over £500,000 in disposable wealth... and that was before their daughter's successful husband-hunt sent their business soaring to vast success. Their net worth, including the business, is now estimated at around £30 million.



As I said, that is what filtered its way over here.

[parabellum]

GreenKnight121 - Sounds a bit fanciful, like something from a women's magazine!

Story, (note 'story'), was that they were being hounded by the press to the extent that they had no private life and it was also interfering with studies and the lives of other undergraduates, so they agreed to have a public split, were seen out without each other etc. but nothing had changed really, as the press soon found out. Everything back on, inevitable wedding etc. etc.

Will we ever know the truth and does it matter?:)

ratpackgreenslug - A thoroughly nasty little piece.

[500N]

ratpack

"The Royal question casts the entire military selection procedure in a less than auspicious light."


Couple of points
1. The fact that Teddy didn't pass / removed himself from the Royal Marines course.
2. As someone said here, one of the royals wasn't good enough for jets
and went rotary.
3. As a general rule, you really think they are going to let anyone, royal
or otherwise fly multi million dollar hardware with the potential to not only kill themselves but others.
Charles might have been given a little lee way at first
but I think after Charles's little escapade the rules changed and ships for him were safer.
4. Apply the above criteria to Harry, I very much doubt you top courses
on the Apache by fluke. Word would have filtered out as opposed
to what does filter out.
5. You think they'd send a person to support troops on the ground
where one slip up could mean a green on green disaster, but a royal
disaster.
6. Seems others on here who have worked with Prince Andrew
seem to say he has more than a normal ability. And 22 years isn't
a bad run.
7. And don't forget it is a two way street, the military get a lot
of benefits out of having them serve in any capacity.

[TT2]

Sorry, a Wee bit late in reply. Way back in the distant past I was on the same gliding course as Randy Andy at RAF Milltown. Half a dozen youg fellas determined to fly - I used to hitch hike 60 miles after school on a Friday to get to Lossie and then same on the way back Sunday evening. That knob turned up with his 'special' friend (Can't be mixing with the hoi polloi), own instructor and then proceeded to wreck his own Slingsby before nicking one of ours. Then flew that through the approach hedge.

Next thing he's vanished and turns up as a hero exocet magnet in the Falklands. The rest of us became pilots.

Why no Royals in FJ? The aircraft are expensive at tax payers expense. The Royals are expensive at tax payers expense. Yea, right, let's double the loss......to the working grunt. I knew a guy who worked a milk round who became a F-4 driver. Respect. Used his evenings for night school to get the mins for Biggin and just strolled it. Given the 'officially' unreported antics of those spoilt brats are you willing to let them loose on a very, very expensive piece of equipment, let alone spend 17 years trying to explain the arse end from the front?.

(I'm allowed to be in a mood - 3 broken ribs and a punctured lung and they won't give me any more pain killers. Addictive they say - fine, bring it on baby).

[Courtney Mil]

I often wonder why the anti-royals here feel the need to resort to angry, insulting language. As soon as I get to the name-calling bits in their posts I kind of lose interest on the grounds that it's a baseless rant rather than a valid opinion. Keep up the good work invalidating your own worthless prejudices.

TT2, what the hell have you done to yourself?

[oldbeefer]

I spoke to some of William's instructors at Strawberry - they all confirmed him as easy to teach and quick to learn. Oh, and Harry was there as well.

[TT2]

'TT2, what the hell have you done to yourself?'

Ah - some Johnny Foreigner decided that he didn't like damn Johnny Foreigners in his country. Ambushed from behind I was, not the done thing, quite..........

Those familiar with the layout of Bangkok will see that Prakanong, Thonglor and Ekamai run more or less parallel to each other - as Ms TT2 and I had had a bit of a feed in Ekamai and were having a nice easy stroll along the road heard and running behind us. This is not unusual in BKK at night. Next thing I'm on my knees unable to breath - thought a car had left the road and got me. Crivvens - that hurt.

Ms TT2 of course being incapable of going to dinner without wearing high heels is screaming bloody blue murder to the motorbike taxi guys along the road that I've been stabbed and 'Restrain that running fellow'. Funny the things that run through your mind at times like that.........
Said assailant was restrained with some vigour until the plods turned up to protect him from Ms TT2. Idiot was out of his face on meth or ice and had just taken a flying runner with a brick or summat at the first foreigner he came across who just happened to be me.

So, off to the Police General Hospital whereupon they pronounced me well knackered and I was staying there for a few days. We disputed this as I feel with sufficient very strong painkillers and the tender (not) administrations SWMBO that anything is better than a hospital. Must have been a couple of weeks ago now - still hurts like buggery, any form of movement being a bit uncomfortable. Bored to tears as well lying in a semi sitting position all the time - it's the punctured lung that's the thing evidently as the rib is well in there and needs to not be in there.

Sends Ms TT2 berserk when I suggest that she run down the shop and score me a packet of snouts. Probably hear her in Wick. "Smoke a cigarette in your condition you'll be blowing smoke out of your arse" One of the more polite observations....................

Another couple of weeks according to the quacks I should be O.K. and can resume breeding exercises, if not, best return to Blighty and use some of my tax contributions.

[TT2]

I often wonder why the anti-royals here feel the need to resort to angry, insulting language................

Only following their example: Historically they make the Sopranos look like kitty cats. Gosh, the Duke is bad enough in public, what's he like in private? Then the one who thinks it's a jape to dress up as a Nazi. Mind you, bit of a family history there.........

[Genstabler]

I'm surprised you haven't accused the Royals of putting out a hit on you. You seem to hold them responsible for every other piece of villainy going around.

[TT2]

I've never accused them of any recent villiany - historically, yes, there was lots of that. But, I somehow don't think they'd put out a hit on little old me. If they do then I hope they make a better job of it than they did with Mary Queen of Scots. Three hacks with the axe and still had to saw her head off with a knife..................

[Union Jack]

Irrespective of the provocation, I trust that no one will be tempted to post any pictures from https://www.google.co.uk/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=563&q=obama+ears+big&oq=obama+ears&gs_l=img.1.1.0l3j0i5j0i24.3488.8417.0.14741.10.8.0.2.2.0.261 .1350.0j6j2.8.0....0...1ac.1.22.img..0.10.1395.akdHcA8KcsU

:=

Jack

[Torque Tonight]

Shortly after I left the mob, William passed through my old squadron, and that experience encouraged him to stick with the RAF as a rotary mate, when he could very well have opted to be a pongo or a fishhead. Good man. Many of my mates flew with him, and the feedback I received was that he was a thoroughly nice bloke and a very competent pilot. If he was crap, and only passed course because of who he was, then in private my mates would certainly have told me so. He has earned respect and I believe in the future the monarchy will be safe in his hands.

[Sun Who]

I have mates who fly with William. None have a bad word to say about him.

Sun.

[Courtney Mil]

Hell of an experience that, TT2. Maybe lucky to be alive. God's speed for a good recovery. We can arrange Red Cross parcels with fags and beer if required. Send mailing address. Coded, of course.

[TT2]

'Hell of an experience that, TT2'

Bit of a surprise like. Bangkok is certainly becoming riskier - and not just for foreign folks. 10-12 years ago if my ex missus was on a late shift I'd meet her outside work at 2200 and then we'd walk the couple of miles home across central Bangkok with no thought of risk. Did that for a couple of years with never a peep from anyone. I'd think twice about it now.Up this end of town there was a Scots lady murdered in a hand back snatch not so long ago, an increasing trend it appears.

I'm bored to tears - the telly is crap and one can only peer at a computer for so long every day. No bookshops around here selling English language publications that I can dispatch her off to. Off course all the bruising on my knees and arms has come out now so I reek of Hirudoid - I must have gone down like a sack of spuds judging by the dint's and dunts.

The guy doesn't have any money so I can't do the usual compensation claim and everything goes away - he'll get a couple of years.

It's money that's the problem - I can't get to the bank and there is no way in a month of Sundays that she will use my ATM cards - being caught doing that here is a really, really serious offence being as it is a world centre for card skimming. Catch you with another's card they bang you up first then you can hang around for two years on remand.
She doesn't earn enough for the rent, keep us both, pay the medical bills (They still want to poke around with me once a week) and look after her old Mum.

I don't even know any foreign folks here anymore, everyone I knew returned to their own countries a few years ago, a regular exodus for some reason and the Thais I knew are all dispersed these days.

And there's a lot of work needs done at the mo' , I've got a couple of nice potential pot boilers started but can't bloody well do anything about them at the moment as they involve travel. Anyone want to buy a share in an aircraft / helo military parts and OH business with 20 years experience here?

Bloody nuisance. And a worry as it appears I've got another couple of weeks before reasonable mobility is expected.
Next time I go out I'll take a rear gunner and body armour. Care packages would have to be in her name as it requires going to the post office for collection - Lao names are unpronouncable to normal folks anyway!.

[Rigga]

As no-one has yet mentioned the cost of doing these favours for royals I will start it.

Andy, as the poor mans second choice, is not nearly as cared for as Charlie. He cost more or less the same as most other jockeys' training (plus the security bit) as nobody really cared if he survived or not and I'm sure his dad would have made sure he would have passed - if he actually did or not...

Young Charlie (being the royals 1st preferred item) was REEEEAAALLLLYY expensive to get as far as he did.

Almost every thing he touched in the RAF was half-lifed (meaning anything over half its normal life expectancy was removed and replaced with new or 1/4 lifed items. And every thing else was polished to within two thousandths of an Inch of its usefulness. (o.oo5mm to you youths)

A Vulcan was almost re-built to accommodate a single back seat ("I'd really like to go up in one of those") flight.

And the RAF probably sighed a BIG sigh when the Fish-heads eventually got him on their books.

So the answer to the OP probably is...
The RAF couldn't afford (even then) to put Royals in Fast Jets and also couldn't afford the RISK of putting a 1st born in one regularly.

[Flying Lawyer]

SAMXXVI think that ANY adverse comments about somebody you have never personally met & spoken to for any time is totally out of order.
So does that mean:
you have met SASless personally and have spoken to him for a time
or
that "I think SASless has revealed his true character at last" was not an adverse comment?


I've met him twice. On the second occasion I spent an entire day with him, first flying together for a few hours ( http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/184078-anyone-flown-fly-huey-19.html#post2154972) and then spending the evening 'putting the world to rights' over a curry and a drink or two.
He is enjoyable and very interesting company. He's lived and worked (flying helicopters) in several different countries (including two Chinook combat tours in Vietnam) and also has a degree in political science or similar. We had very interesting discussions about politics and world affairs. Sometimes we agreed and sometimes we disagreed - very strongly about some topics; disagreeing just added to the enjoyment.


FL

[Clockwork Mouse]

Good bloke SASless may be, but he has still shown himself on this thread to be also tactless, arrogant and provocative. With his extensive experience and education one might expect him to act with a bit more common sense and courtesy.

[Tankertrashnav]

A Vulcan was almost re-built to accommodate a single back seat ("I'd really like to go up in one of those") flight.


Puzzled there. What was wrong with the existing facility to carry a 6th and 7th seats?

[Flying Lawyer]

CM

It may be a difference of culture.

Most Americans are not offended by discourteous comments about their head of state (whether made by fellow Americans or foreigners) so they don't understand why many (not all) Brits should be offended by discourteous comments about the Royal family.


FL

[SASless]

I don't believe I have met Sammy or Courtney.....although i may have met their Nice Twin at some point.

CM....provocative works.....judging by some of the responses! Almost like fishing it is!

We absolutely do not object to folks criticizing our current President who seems to imagine himself to be a "King" in the way he acts.

Certainly the Royals must be a bit envious at his Airplane and helicopters although the Yacht has been sold off and thus cannot compete their Canoe.

Now that it was mentioned.....Jug's views on Global Warming is another topic that does not engender warmness.....poor choice of words I know.


Can someone tell me just what Jug Ears does for a living? Does the Man have any sort of gainful employ? Does he do the Royal Books, arrange Mum's flowers or something?


FL.....all that and you bought dinner as I recall.....I am purely blessed. For a while I thought you would spear me with the butter knife that night when we got around to guns and mayhem.

I will get the Tenner in the Post for that ringing endorsement.

[ambidextrous]

Keep growling SASless, go get em boy!
An uncorroborated anecdote from days of yore at Aberdoom follows:
Inbound Slowbird arrives on the helicopter runway to be greeted with "Hold for the arriving "Rainbow 123" (visit of Phil the Duke), then pass behind and taxi to helicopter dispersal". Response from horny handed smallholding helicopter pilot went something like this as I recall "Hold for that waste of taxpayer's money & then pass behind & taxi to dispersal"! By the time our 'son of the soil' had reached dispersal a message from the Chief Pilot/Ops.Director et al awaited him. Following the no-doubt interview without coffee a grovelling apology was written, the threat being that the forthcoming Shell/Brent renewal would go to another operator if an apology wasn't forthcoming.
Anybody who thinks they live in a parliamentary democracy should think again!:ok:

[Roland Pulfrew]

SAS

Can someone tell me just what [Prince Charles] does for a living?

You could start with this of course (http://www.princes-trust.org.uk/)

And of course his old man started this (http://www.dofe.org/)

Nothing important you understand :rolleyes:

[Archimedes]

'Jug Ears'? We use him to be polite towards village idiots...:E


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00604/news-graphics-2005-_604864a.jpg

Added as an edit rather as the planned separate post thanks to my broadband doing an update or something similar at just the wrong moment...

In all seriousness, while SASless's references to Prince Charles seem well -sorry, SASless - the sort of thing I last heard in about year 2 of secondary school (bar one reference of that sort about HMQ from a leading light of the university Labour Club in 1991), the amount of abuse fired at Bush Jr, and before him Reagan and Bush Sr from this side of the Atlantic might make SASless wonder if double standards are at work here. The fact that the overwhelming majority of people offended by the 'jug ears' reference are the sort of people who would disapprove of the abuse heaped on Bush 43 et al might be a subtlety that gets lost in the noise... Just a thought.

[alfred_the_great]

Torque - he was never going to be a matelot. He came on our small ship and was horrendously sea sick. Admittedly, it was pretty roughers, and most of us were sea sick, but as a first impression I don't think it really helped him be positive about life on the ocean wave!

[TT2]

Used to know this strange sort of Aussie who was an expert in Kung Fu or Origami or summat' who used to go around muttering his Sensai's favourite expression. "In a world of individuals what's the use of comparisons?".

Never quite got that myself - but he was an ex baggage handler so maybe something there.

[500N]

Alfred

I have something in common with William then.
Fast Patrol Boat, Landing Craft, Dive Boat, you
name it, I was sick but once we offloaded into Zodiacs,
regardless of how rough, cold or a long transit it was,
all was good.

So I can fully understand him going RAF !

[SASless]

If i read this right.....those Foundations were created with Public Money....or Private Money in lieu of Public Money.

As the Royal Family is funded by the Public to the tune of 31 Million Pounds Sterling per year.....and have Real Estate Holdings of over 7 Billion Pounds Sterling.....I should hope they contribute to the People that are paying the Royal's Dole Money.

They should consult with the Obama's as they have a much better travel budget....with their recent trip to the old someplace costing the American Taxpayers a cool 100 Million Dollars.

The British Royal Family is financed mainly by public money, but there are also a number of private sources of income. The official reported annual cost to the British public of keeping the Royal Family was £41.5 million for the 2008-09 financial year.[1] However, this figure is disputed since it does not include the cost of security provided by the police and the Army, the lost revenues of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster and other expenses.
On 1 April 2012, the old Civil List and the Grants-in-Aid were replaced by the single Sovereign Grant. The British Parliament meets the cost of the Sovereign's official expenditure from public funds. This includes the costs of the upkeep of the various royal residences, staffing, travel and state visits, public engagements, and official entertainment.[2]

[500N]

SaSless

All you ever see is cost, cost, cost.

I think the corresponding figures should be included showing
how much they bring in to the economy of the UK.

The royal baby alone will add an estimated 240 million pounds.


How much was Obama's last holiday ?
$100 million ?

[Milo Minderbinder]

A few years back, during Charlie's last visit here (including a tour of the town centre) a pub-owning friend decided to advertise on his window-hung beer menu blackboard a special: "Big Ears Bitter". The local cops thought it was funny, but a sergeant jobsworth on a day-visit from Cumbria took umbrage and threatened an arrest on the grounds of "behaviour likely to cause a breech of the peace". So Steve had to take the board down......he left the spoof pump clip on the bar though. Sold quite a bit from what I remember (I think it was really Tetley's.....)

[SASless]

Rings a Bell.....that idea of "conduct likely to cause a breach of the piece"....that occurred in Lost Wages a while back.:E

[Courtney Mil]

It may be a difference of culture.

provocative works.....judging by some of the responses!

Actually, it wasn't our American cousins I was referring to, it was the UK's home-grown chip-bearers. I understand the cultural differences.

[teeteringhead]

I'm not sure if SASless (whose experience I also respect) is aware, but the "money given to the Royals" ain't for their private pockets.

Unlike POTUS, their staff(s) are not Civil Servants/Government employees, but employed by "The Firm". Our red-tops are guilty of this misunderstanding too. Any increase in the Civil List (the "Royal Dole") brings headlines such as "X% Pay Rise for the Queen" when it really means X% pay rise for a host of (relatively poorly paid) drivers, silver polishers, cooks, maids etc.

Were we to count up how much POTUS' staff costs, it would be lots more I'm sure. And of course the US have to pay for the upkeep/support/protection of a number of ex-Presidents too. I saw the other day that - in an excellent gesture - George HW Bush (the first one) had shaved his head in support of one of "his Secret Service detail" who was undergoing chemo-therapy. He was pictured with all "his Secret Service men" who had done likewise, and there were 25 of them! One time in the Clinton era I happened to be strolling around DC when a huge motorcade came from the White House to the grass by the Washington Memorial so that Bill C could climb onto his S-61. I stopped counting at 17 vehicles.........¿quanta costa?

As to inherited property and/or wealth, you are entitled to agree with it or not. I don't think the amount/extent is relevant (but you may disagree). I "inherited" half a shop in Sarf Landan, the proceeds of which bought me a second hand car! But if it had been a Palace or 3 - so what. As to the argument that some Royal property might have been illegally obtained - well, so might my Dad's shop when he started it in 1936. But very difficult to prove nearly 50 years later, let alone 500.

I'm sure - like FL - I would enjoy similar discussions with SASless over curry and beer into the small hours, but I do have this bad habit of spoiling arguments with facts (and I've only got about 800 hours on Hueys!) ;)

[SASless]

TH.....Lots of us are questioning the need for a Hundred Million Dollar trip to find his Roots or whatever he was doing in Africa....along with the Seven Million Golf Lesson with Long Dong Woods in Florida.....and dozens of other royal galas, trips, night outs, and vacations done one right after another.

We at least admit the Royals are Kings and Queens.....which the Obama's surely must think should be their lot in Life by observing their penchant for the extravagant.....paid for at great expense by the Taxpayer.

Getting this back to the original intent of the thread.....I would like to remove Odumbo from a Jet.....and put him onto the top of a very large Rocket and repeat the first NASA trip to Mars.

[ExRAFRadar]

500N:
I think the corresponding figures should be included showing
how much they bring in to the economy of the UK.

The royal baby alone will add an estimated 240 million pounds.

I take it you are getting that from the Centre For Retail Research here:
The Royal Baby - Retail Estimates - Centre for Retail Research, Nottingham UK (http://www.retailresearch.org/royalbaby2013.php)

I suggest you go read that properly. Never seen so much drivel in a supposed business document. I work in Business Intelligence and the second you start seeing words like 'Expect', 'Likely', 'Around' in a forecast document with no supporting evidence (Why is the supporting evidence not shown) you have to be suspicious. Here is a bit from that press release about Festivities:

Festivities. We expect £25 million to be spent on food for 4.8 million people, who will join in the mostly local and informal festivities and parties, including those in back gardens. Increased spending on alcohol is expected to amount to £62 million. Three million bottles of champagne and sparkling wine will be opened to celebrate the new baby. Few organised local events will be held, but there can be plenty of informal celebrations, both barbeques and in public houses. We expect plenty of people, not necessarily fervent royalists, to welcome the happy event in a demonstrative way.

I suggest, that without any supporting evidence the increase in retail sales as a result of the baby being born will be in the region of £500.

[Rigga]

TTN:
"Puzzled there. What was wrong with the existing facility to carry a 6th and 7th seats? "

It wasn't about seating capacity - but about the age of the aircraft and its components...replacing engines, control jacks, undercarriages, filters, VCCP, etc. All and more for the sake of one request for a rear seat jolly.

[SASless]

I don't understand why the concern over the possible demise of the Man....after all....the Royal System has redundancy built into it to take care of such events. It is kinda like the Para Regiment and Hercs.....one just shuffles towards the door until it is your turn.

[teeteringhead]

SASless - we appear to be in "violent agreement"!

Basic problem is that Heads of State don't come cheap. Should we one day - God forbid - have a Pres in the UK, I don't imagine it would cost any less.

But what we get from Royals just being Royals, makes them - IMHO - better value for money on account of the income they generate.

[Bert Angel]

Should we ever have an elected head of state (President Beckham or Jordan?) then I am sure they would feel entitled to a level of financial support that would make the present Royal Family blush.

[500N]

Bert

And with less to show for it as well !

Maybe one or two appearances a month,
paid for on top of what they already get !

[Ken Scott]

According to this report the Royal Family is valued at a great deal more than its annual cost:

The Queen gets a £44bn valuation for family 'Firm? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/the_queens_diamond_jubilee/9292607/The-Queen-gets-a-44bn-valuation-for-family-Firm.html)

As well as likely costing a great deal more whilst bringing in considerably less tourist interest (& money) a democratically elected President for the UK would probably also expect to wield some real power rather than be just a figurehead with the right to question.

[GreenKnight121]

Festivities. We expect £25 million to be spent on food for 4.8 million people, who will join in the mostly local and informal festivities and parties, including those in back gardens. Increased spending on alcohol is expected to amount to £62 million. Three million bottles of champagne and sparkling wine will be opened to celebrate the new baby. Few organised local events will be held, but there can be plenty of informal celebrations, both barbeques and in public houses.


And I suppose that if Georgie hadn't been born none of those "4.8 million" people would have consumed food and drink "on British soil" on the days in question?

That is exactly your point I believe... that they are rolling spending that would have happened anyway into the "benefits of the Royal Birth".

[ExRAFRadar]

Exactly GreenKnight. This is the best bit:

Few organised local events will be held, but there can be plenty of informal celebrations, both barbeques and in public houses.

So what they are saying is that this event is so momentous everyone is out putting Millions into the economy and yet "Few organised local events will be held". Then they go on to assert there will be plenty of informal celebrations without any possible way of measuring that. And thanks for telling us BBQ's and the local pub are the place where celebrations are normally held.

[ExRAFRadar]

Ken :
This is by the people who gave that valuation:

The leading brand and intangible asset valuation agency predicts that William and Kate’s son will boost Britain’s economy by £521m (US$800m). A combination of; a short term boost to souvenirs, memorabilia, food and drink; a longer lasting uplift to related products such as pushchairs and clothing; and the benefit of improved consumer sentiment is behind the impressive figure.

The other one I mentioned above values the boost at £243million.

Seriously, a £278 Million difference?

We all need to start questioning the methodology these idiots are using instead of just quoting them and assuming fact.

[SASless]

OH Bless Me......what have I done.....seems a Title Change (poor choice of words I know) is in order perhaps....as we seem to be arguing why Royals in the UK not just in Fast Jets.

[Wander00]

Could join it up with the "My Beautiful Weber" thread now...coat..hat

[Bob Wyer]

In 1971 HRH flew in XL392, a 230 OCU B2, certainly a standard seat fit, all you have to do is google before you make fatuous, incorrect statements, rant off!!

[500N]

In view of the poster who said a whole load of things were changed
because HRH was flying it in, would you say that we are now less
protective of Prince William and Harry ?

Or would special attention still be paid to Fl Lt Wales's helicopters
that he flies ?

[Tankertrashnav]

Son was over here with us with his Dutch wife for a few days holiday when the great event in the Lindo Wing occurred. The next day, DIL went out and bought souvenir copies of every newspaper she could find to take back to The Netherlands as souvenirs (I think she gave the Grauniad a miss!). Well, thats a few euros in the UK's coffers that it wouldn't have had without the royal family. Funny thing is back home she's no great supporter of the Dutch royals, but strangely is quite smitten with ours.

[500N]

Which Europeans royals have someone, a son who did well
in the services and specifically the Countries special forces unit ?

I think it was Denamrk OR Belgium.

Will have to look it up.

[Ken Scott]

we seem to be arguing why Royals in the UK not just in Fast Jets.

Whilst I agree that in the 21st Century it seems a bit anachronistic to have a head of state chosen by an accident of birth when one considers the alternative - our democratically elected politicians are hardly held in high esteem, they seem to be principally out to feather their own nests (& moats & duck houses) & are 'submitting' to a hefty pay rise at a time of national austerity. An elected president would do what precisely? Would they be content to do everything the royals currently take on?

Whatever they did would be unlikely to excite foreign tourists or indeed any of the population. The UK would save around £32 million a year (we currently borrow 10 times that every day) & we could get rid of all the trappings of a monarchy - Trooping the Colour, Changing the Guard at Buck House etc.

[SASless]

Or would special attention still be paid to Fl Lt Wales's helicopters
that he flies ?

Well of course old chap.....of course the Apache he flies in combat in the Sandbox has been given the Half Life treatment and a Zero/Zero Ejection seat installed along with the Blade Shed system.

One cannot be too careful in ensuring the continued succession to the Big Chair now can One?

[Ascend Charlie]

Let's get back on thread:



"Why no royals in fast jets?"



Because it gets tricky putting an experienced "copilot" into a single seat jet to keep an eye on His Regal Uppityness's activities.

[Mad_Mark]

Or would special attention still be paid to Fl Lt Wales's helicopters
that he flies ?
Well of course old chap.....of course the Apache he flies in combat in the Sandbox has been given the Half Life treatment and a Zero/Zero Ejection seat installed along with the Blade Shed system.

One cannot be too careful in ensuring the continued succession to the Big Chair now can One?

SASless, Flt Lt Wales does NOT fly Apache helicopters and does NOT fly "in combat in the sandbox" :=

[SASless]

My mistake.....all them Royals begin to look alike after a while!

[teeteringhead]

My mistake.....all them Royals begin to look alike after a while! a very fair call. At least your Presidents - even if closely related ;) - do not look like each other!

[SASless]

To correct my error.....does the Apache get that kind of half life treatment?

[Roland Pulfrew]

To correct my error.....does the Apache get that kind of half life treatment?

Nope because Capt Wales is the spare not the heir, that is Flt Lt Wales. ;)

Actually I have no idea!! :cool:

[Albert Driver]

TTN I knew several guys who had been turned down for fast jets and who went on to become very competent and experienced captains of multi engined/crew aircraft.
...and I can think of a number of FJ pilots who failed commercial airline command courses .....

It is horses for courses, not some sort of hierarchy.
And I for one, on the eve of the 50th anniversary of my first solo, have as much respect for a good helicopter pilot as I have for a good fast-jet or a good multi-engine pilot or civil airline commander. The number able to swop places and still excel has proved to be small.

The point is the Royals had a go and qualified when they didn't need to make the effort. All credit for that.
They are better in their eventual roles for the experience, and the Services are better for having Royals able to speak up for them with authority, in an era when most politicians have absolutely no military knowledge or experience.

[Union Jack]

Nope because Capt Wales is the spare not the heir, that is Flt Lt Wales.

Oh no he's not!:)

Jack

[GreenKnight121]

The Heir is Charlie Windsor. (Charles Philip Arthur George)

Flt. Lt. Wales is Heir+1. (William Arthur Philip Louis)

Baby Georgie Wales is Heir+2. (George Alexander Louis)

Capt. Wales is the spare to Heir+2... nothing more than a back-up to the #3 in-line. (Henry Charles Albert David)

[Heathrow Harry]

time for a Republic................

[Roland Pulfrew]

Thank you GK and UJ, I am perfectly aware that there is No 1 and a new No 3, but you know what I mean. :rolleyes:

And no HH it isn't!! Can't think of anything worse than having someone like TB or DC as "president".

[teeteringhead]

Can't think of anything worse than having someone like TB or DC as "president". Indeed so, and they wouldn't be cheap (see my post #143.)

And they probably wouldn't be DC or TB (TG!)

Countries with separate Heads of State and Heads of Government, tend to have old and/or failed and/or obscure pollies as Pres - eg Germany. We all know Frau Merkel is Chancellor, but who is Pres? (answer below*)

So we'd get someone like Healey or Heseltine :eek::eek: Whoever they were, they wouldn't live in a Council Flat and commute with their 'Bus Pass.











* Joachim Gauk, who has two residences, one in Berlin and one in Bonn.

[Tankertrashnav]

And no HH it isn't!! Can't think of anything worse than having someone like TB or DC as "president".


Or instead of the American model where the president is the political leader, we could go down the German road (and that of many other European countries) where we continue to have a political leader (as in Chancellor Merkel) and some faceless background figure that nobody has ever heard of as president. (Do you know who the German president is? I certainly don't and can't be bothered to Google him/her).

Can't see either system appeals, I'd much rather stick to our present arrangement.

edited to add - Great minds, teeteringhead, you were answering my question as I was posing it. And no, his name still doesn't ring a bell!

[teeteringhead]

TTN Snap! akakkfknfikeewori

[Heathrow Harry]

"some faceless background figure that nobody has ever heard of"

The Queen has never given an interview in 60+ years in the top job.......

[500N]

Heathrow

I wonder why that is and if that might change in the future,
after all, she has opened up a bit.

Instead of "An interview with the Queen" it could be "an interview with a Bond girl". She took to that like a duck to water as well as accepting an award.
And got a lot of kudos out of it !


I wonder if Daniel Craig is the only person to have given the Queen
a subtle "hurry up" by coughing :O

[Mad_Mark]

The Queen has never given an interview in 60+ years in the top job.......

You mean apart from this one...

Queen Elizabeth II rare exclusive interview - YouTube

[tartare]

That's v. interesting - I didn't know that interview existed.
I reckon Lilybet's always come across as a very shrewd stateswoman.
Remember reading somewhere she's also a very good mimic - in private does quite funny impressions of well known people she's met.

[Heathrow Harry]

The monarchy is like everything else in the UK - we hang on to something for years and years and years and everyone says when change is suggested "the sky will fall on our heads"

then it changes and 6 months later people have forgotten all about the issue in question

[FODPlod]

HH

This the latest of several posts in which you have expressed your hostility towards the Royal Family.

A goodly proportion of posters on here have served with pride in the ROYAL Navy and the ROYAL Air Force. Some of us even hold the QUEEN's commission and regard it as something more than a meaningless piece of paper.

You've more than made your point so give it a rest for a while, eh?

[Mad_Mark]

HeathrowHarry,

Are (or were you ever) one of the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, or one of the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground, from any Army, Navy or Air Force anywhere?

[thing]

Can't argue his point though, people get used to change very quickly even though the change might be thought unbearable before it happens.



I'm not by the way making a comment on royalty here, I'm in favour of Her Maj being head of state.

[Churchills Ghost]

FODPlod: Not just here but all over the place does Heathrow Harry spread his stinking "online flatulence".

He also wishes to see Scotland independent and no doubt wishes Wales to become a Republic!

We just have to accept that there's no accounting for some people's appreciation of what is valuable - and what is not.

Our Monarchy (imperfect as it is) remains one of the most effective cohesive agents in our increasingly fractured society. Our admiration of them is for the very most part, us as a people (Britons) having faith in ourselves and our future.

But try and explain this to a socialist republican!

God save the Queen!

[Genstabler]

Well said sir!:D

[Heathrow Harry]

Gentlemen, gentlemen

Really - I seem to have touched a sore spot..................

I presume you are all subjects whereas some of us prefer to be citizens.

Re Royalty, like religion, I find other people's belief in the mystic impossible to understand so I try and give it a wide berth :sad:

[Tankertrashnav]

I presume you are all subjects whereas some of us prefer to be citizens.




As I have pointed out ad nauseam on various similar threads, we are (almost) all citizens now. We ceased to be subjects in 1983.


On 1 January 1983, upon the coming into force of the British Nationality Act 1981, every Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies became either a British Citizen, British Dependent Territories Citizen or British Overseas Citizen.
Use of the term British subject was discontinued for all persons who fell into these categories, or who had a national citizenship of any other part of the Commonwealth. The category of British subjects now includes only those people formerly known as British subjects without citizenship and people born in Ireland before 1949.

[Genstabler]

Does your enthusiastic stirring of the poo on the subject really constitute giving it a wide birth?

[Roland Pulfrew]

I presume you are all subjects whereas some of us prefer to be citizens.

Subject? Citizen? Who gives a s**t, who cares and how many could explain the difference? We are all just wage slaves in reality!!

And if it means being a "citizen" under a political elite (and I use that word cautiously) then 'subject', please!

[fade to grey]

Arguing with a republican or a liberal is like playing chess with a pigeon.
However good your argument, eventually they'll climb on the board and sh@t everywhere...

I was selected for RAF pilot, but failed the medical on eyesight.

God save the queen !