Aircraft down in Channel

[Super VC-10]

Sky News reporting an aircraft ditched 15 nmi south of Dungeness. American registered, 1 pob.

[El Grifo]

Wreckage found. Search continues for pilot.

[Bunker Mentality]

BBC reporting Sarops in Channel following reports of a light aircraft disappearing en route to France. Wreckage found but no news of occupant(s) yet. Fingers crossed.

[ricardian]

BBC report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23399158)British and French emergency teams are searching for the pilot of a plane which crashed into the English Channel.

[dhp41]

Dungeness, Calais and Boulogne Lifeboats all searching, along with R125 from Wattisham.

Search will continue until dark.

[smartbrit]

Woa! Careful what you post please. The aircraft involved was not LK from Blackbushe

[JDA2012]

It has been decided not to continue with the search this morning.

BBC News - Search for pilot called off after English Channel crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23402222)

Also indicates that the aircraft was headed from Blackbushe to Le Touquet.

[fisbangwollop]

Was he working any ATC unit ( London information maybe) at the time and able to get out a Mayday call?? It amazes me how many folk choose not to talk to any ATC unit whilst flying over water or hostile terrain. I have had three instances in the past few years where aircraft have called Mayday on my frequency Scottish Information......in every case we had a rescue helicopter airborne before thankfully the aircraft had force landed safely......the service is there so beggars belief why at times some people choose not to use it.

[London Flyer]

I crossed Calais-RINTI-DVR yesterday at 3.30pm at 5000ft. I noticed to our left (towards the area of the incident) that there was low cloud over the Channel.

Didn't hear any SAR activity on the radio (Lille Info / Manston).

[mm_flynn]

From the very fragmentary information available (mostly general media), it appears the search was initiated as a result of overdue action rather than a Mayday. Also, the description from the French coast guard of 'wreckage' rather than 'the aircraft' suggests the aircraft broke up on impact. The aircraft should have been in radio contact with someone as it was about to cross from the UK to French FIR.

All and all a bit of a mystery until the AAIB do their stuff. However, it would seem like pilot incapacity or spatial disorientation (which seems unlikely given it appeared to be CAVOK at EGMD and LFAT - but may have been a possibilty given the prior post) are two obvious issues that could cause a crash without a radio call or BRS pull.

[fisbangwollop]

Mm flynn......would concur with that, that would fit the bill but I guess now we must all sit and wait for the AAIB results. Very sad whatever :{

[London Flyer]

The low cloud was not over land either on the French side or English south coast - it was just over the water. It was the sort of cloud you could climb through in 10 seconds and be on top.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

On the way back from the RSA Rally yesterday, I crossed the Channel between Cap Griz Nez and LYD, Mid-Channel around 15:30z. The visibility over the Channel, particularly around the FIR Boundary, was distinctly ‘goldfish bowl’ at an altitude of around 2,000’. The sea was visible below, but it was very difficult to judge distance ahead in the haze. There was no usable visible horizon. Coast becoming visible at a range of about five miles.

I found that any distraction, checking the map, changing radio channels etc, rapidly induced disorientation. Radio reception of London Info was poor. I could hear people calling them, but couldn’t make out the replies. I did try Farnborough East, although well out of their patch (thanks to the crew who offered to relay). I eventually settled on Lydd until safely back over dry land.

If you had one, it was probably a good day for ‘George’ to drive.

[Jonzarno]

Also, the description from the French coast guard of 'wreckage' rather than 'the aircraft' suggests the aircraft broke up on impact.

I'm afraid it did. Here is a link to a French Coastguard press release which contains a picture of a piece of wreckage.

Un avion de tourisme s'abîme en mer au large de Boulogne-sur-mer (http://www.premar-manche.gouv.fr/actualites-communiques-presse/avion-tourisme-abime-mer-large-boulogne-sur-mer.html)

I have also seen a picture of another fragment of wreckage which, sadly, identifies the aircraft involved conclusively but I don't want to post it here.

[JDA2012]

I have also seen the photo which you mention, and I note that incorrect information about the aircraft involved was present online but has now been amended (link removed for obvious reasons).

I was going to correct this myself but it occurs that I am not sure whether it is worse to make the correct information (more) publically available before interested parties may have been informed or to leave the incorrect information there to cause unnecessary worry.

What is considered proper under such circumstances? My own thoughts are that it would presently be better to have no registration listed at all (and certainly not an incorrect one!), until we are certain family/friends have been informed.

[smartbrit]

The photos have been posted elsewhere and there is much debate going on in the COPA forums so I might as well add what I know.

The aircraft was N147KA, a 2006 SR22 GTS formerly operated by Free Flight Aviation but recently purchased by former members of that group.

The photos of the wreckage show the CAPS tether deployment tracks although it is possible for the CAPS to fire on impact so it is not clear if CAPS was deployed at altitude, when too low to be effective, at too high an airspeed or by the impact.

I believe the aircraft went down before mid-day based on EGLK pilot reports of when the aircraft departed the circuit so the conditions in the channel would likely have been worse than reported in this thread but I understand that cloud tops were around 3000 msl most of the morning so the aircraft could have been in the clear on top.

I also believe the pilot was in contact with London but that no Mayday was transmitted hence the overdue action.

Given where the wreckage is, I doubt any recovery will be attempted so we will probably never know the cause.

[derekl29]

There was no usable visible horizon. Coast becoming visible at a range of about
five miles.

I can agree with that, I routed from overhead Lydd, direct to Le Touquet about 1130Z yesterday, and back again at about 1515Z, the horizon was pretty non existant on the way back, instrument flying most of the way.

On the way out it was better, but still not great. I was up at 5,000 but on the way out there was a noticable layer of thin cloud / mist quite far below at the mid channel point.

It amazes me how many folk choose not to talk to any ATC unit whilst flying over water or hostile terrain.


Manston were able to give me a radar service right through to mid channel and then it was a straight handover to Le Touquet approach, very easy.

I saw the rescue helicopter coast out when I was in Le Touquet, was kind of hoping it wasnt for something like this, very sad

[Mariner9]

Was he working any ATC unit ( London information maybe) at the time and able to get out a Mayday call??

London Info on a sunny weekend are the last people I'd put a mayday call out to. Tough getting a word in edgewise typically.

I always have 121.5 on box 2 over water/hostile terrain and would be straight over to that for a mayday call if working London Info.

[JW411]

arem:

"A group Cirrus 'LK from BBS"

I actually know which aircraft was involved and it was certainly not Cirrus 'LK. Have you ever heard of the expression:

"Before opening mouth, engage brain."

I do not know what your motive was for posting BS but did it never occur to you that you might have caused a great deal of grief to the wrong people?

[smartbrit]

JW411

As one of the owners of LK, thanks for the support. You can imagine the fallout that post and subsequent listing on another site caused!

[JW411]

smartbrit:

I do indeed have previous experience of what happens when this sort of thing happens. I am glad that all of your group at least are safe and well.

[Contacttower]

The visibility and horizon have been very poor recently - I think we sometimes forget that the sun does not automatically bring good flying conditions.

I do not normally speculate on these threads but having flown across the channel yesterday I would not be at all surprised if some sort of distraction lead to a spatial disorientation and loss of control.

[fisbangwollop]

Mariner9 I always have 121.5 on box 2 over water/hostile terrain and would be straight over to that for a mayday call if working London Info.

Sadly that shows how little you know about how the system works.....if your in contact with London/Scottish info call Mayday on their frequency, within seconds your details will be relayed to D&D and help will be at hand........if you call blind on 121.5 the chances of being heard below 3000ft in certain parts of the UK may not be great! Even higher over parts of hostile Scotland.

[Contacttower]

Sadly that shows how little you know about how the system works.....if your in contact with London/Scottish info call Mayday on their frequency, within seconds your details will be relayed to D&D and help will be at hand........if you call blind on 121.5 the chances of being heard below 3000ft in certain parts of the UK may not be great! Even higher over parts of hostile Scotland.

Could you elaborate a bit more on how the receiving systems for the different stations are set up? I am just curious since I had always assumed that since D&D and London Info are in the same building they would have identical receiving power.

[fisbangwollop]

Contacttower.......yes they are in the same building but do not necessary use the same aerial reciever sites......what I am trying to say is that if you have made initial contact with London/Scottish hopefully a Mayday call to them will suffice to get the cavalry moving......a blind call to D&D may not even be heard if out of range of one of their reciever sites.

[John R81]

I have not yet made a MAYDAY call - hopefully never will have to. However, I have had 2 events where things began to go wrong mechanically and hence I developed an 'urgency' to get out of the sky. In both cases, I think I had my hands full trying to diagnose the problems, work around them, and get down safely. Being in contact with a BASIC service, I pulled the trigger and went with that (and the help I was given most, most, most gratefully received - track to nearest airfield, the way cleared for me, and cleared to land any surface with additional services rolled out to meet me - just in case).

When things get stressful and busy the idea of taking time to do something unnecessary - even swapping to box 2 - is unattractive as it adds to workload at precisely the wrong time.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Well of course. Always fly the aeroplane as no.1 priority (aviate, navigate, communicate in that order). If you don't, the rest is irrelevant.

However, being able to get out a call if you are going down into the sea could very much make the difference between being rescued or not. Making a call if you get an engine failure on take off is, however, wasting time you should be using to 'aviate' and get it on the ground safely.

We don't know what happened in this accident, but it could be that the pilot was too busy trying to prevent a crash to get on the horn and tell someone of his predicament.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

Fortunately the SR22 Garmins make the choice of current station or 121.5 simple for a MayDay or Pan-Pan call. Either stay where you are or keep the frequency change knob depressed for a few secs and up pops 121.5

[John R81]

GMM

And selecting Box 3 for me (where I monitor 121.5) is one button push. However:

1. Additional thing to remember to do
2. Additional risk - did anyone hear you?

Sticking with the controller you are talking to is simpler, and they really do know their business. Let them help you.

Regards

John

[RTN11]

But if you're well out to sea, you probably wouldn't get a call picked up by either London info or 121.5.

Surely here the point of 121.5 is that there is likely to be some high level airline monitoring the frequency and could relay the message.

As above though it's unlikely the pilot made a mayday at all in this case, as he was probably busy trying to deal with whatever situation developed, but in other cases a mayday may be useful, and the choice of frequency could mean life or death.

[chrisbl]

As could being distracted instead of flying the aircraft. There is no one way and circumstances are usually different.

Of course to call a Mayday you need to recognise the situation you are in.

[thing]

Of course to call a Mayday you need to recognise the situation you are in.

Very true.

[Mariner9]

Sadly that shows how little you know about how the system works.....if your in contact with London/Scottish info call Mayday on their frequency, within seconds your details will be relayed to D&D and help will be at hand.

Thanks for the lesson FBW. No please teach me how to get a Mayday call in to London Info when there are 30 aircraft all waiting to get a call in for a BS and the winner is the fastest to the PTT button as soon as last transmission stops? If I squawked 7700 would London Info be aware it was someone previously working them and put out a broadcast for all a/c to STF up?

I'll stick with a radar unit (if there is one) or D&D in the south as my preferred Mayday provider thanks. Oop north, I would of course use you lot :ok:

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

To be fair to London Info, they shut the BS traffic up quite quickly if they hear a Pan or Mayday.

I called Pan on frequency some years ago, having spotted a boat on fire in the Solent. I wasn’t actually talking to London Info previously, but they were remarkably quick in shutting up everyone else. In the end they handed me off to D&D to help with triangulation and location. This was before Swanwick, so it may be even quicker now.

[Fuji Abound]

Mariner9

Fair point, but in my actual experience just the mention of the word Mayday and everyone freezes.

A mayday, mayday, mayday almost certainly will cut the traffic dead and leave you plenty enough time to transmit a position report and any other information that may assist you.

[Mariner9]

I dont doubt everyone will shut up one mayday/pan etc is heard. The problem on a sunny weekend like the one just gone can be getting even a solitary mayday in edgewise. You've enough on your plate in an emergency without having to concentrate on jumping in first to the next break in transmission.

Thankfully, I've only had to call mayday once (smoke in cockpit on climb out), but that was working Cardiff tower so no problems getting call in.

[John R81]

M9 - here's how I would think of doing it - not had to try in practice. Radio messages are not that long, you just need everyone else in the queue to give you next turn.

Regardless of current radio traffic, squeeze PTT and say "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday .... [callsign]". Release PTT

Repeat as needed in rapid succession.

The current transmitting aircraft will not hear you whilst they are transmitting, and everyone else gets "2 at once screech". If current transmitting aircraft ends his message before you do, the word "Mayday" will be heard and everyone goes quiet for your next call. If not, by repeating the process everyone else on frequency knows that someone is desparate to break in and shortly the current transmitting aircraft will finish their message and you will break in.

Once in, you can deliver your message

[Fuji Abound]

John - exactly so, you beat me to it.

[dubbleyew eight]

if you are ever in a "situation" and have an epirb in the glove box activate the thing before you go in.

[Mariner9]

..or press the Com 2 button and transmit mayday to D&D straight away (unless there's a practise pan in progress, which suggests it's really not your day!)

[fisbangwollop]

Mariner9Thanks for the lesson FBW. No please teach me how to get a Mayday call in to London Info when there are 30 aircraft all waiting to get a call in for a BS and the winner is the fastest to the PTT button as soon as last transmission stops? If I squawked 7700 would London Info be aware it was someone previously working them and put out a broadcast for all a/c to STF up?

Sorry I was only trying to help, but maybe after 40 years working in ATC and the last 20 working Scottish Information and in very close liason with Scottish D&D till they shifted to London earlier this year I thought I may know what I was talking about.....sadly you choose not to listen. :confused:

[soaringhigh650]

fisbangwallop, London FIS is unfortunately overloaded by pilots seeking a tail number collection service.

[Flyingmac]

London FIS is unfortunately overloaded by pilots seeking a callsign collection service


I flew with one recently. He just HAD to be talking to someone.:rolleyes:

[dublinpilot]

fisbangwallop, London FIS is unfortunately overloaded by pilots seeking a tail number collection service.

Indeed. Last Sunday crossing the Irish Sea, I heard London Info ask a pilot to repeat his message four times, as each time he tried someone else jumped in and we all got that horrible screech.

[mm_flynn]

Some of you guys seem to be missing FBW's point.

D&D coverage is from a limited number of antennas and specifically
'Covers most of the UK above 3000 feet MSL and in many (but not all) areas is good below this level'.

Whereas the unit you are tuned to (like London FIS or Manston, etc.) may well have a much better located antenna and be able to cover you much closer to the ground (although maybe not with the same VDF facilities D&D use).

If you can describe where you are, or are transponding, staying with your current service will avoid the potential that at your level and position you are out of range of D&D (in which case, you are relying on an airline to hear you, relay to their current working frequency, to relay again, for asking any questions, etc.). If you don't know where you are and don't have a transponder, then switching to D&D and hoping they can get a DF fix is probably a better bet.

I hear busy frequencies, but the squeal of two at once, shuts up most people. Key up, take a deep breath, say your piece, wait a moment and unkey. The frequency will then be quiet except for one Muppet who keeps on talking and when he stops, ATC will say 'all stations, standby while I work the Mayday' - and then he will go to you (periodically telling the new joiners to 'standby, Mayday in progress').

[Mariner9]

With respect FBW, I did listen, but feel you missed the point of my earlier post.

I never doubted that London Info would do a brilliant job with a Mayday call, but the point I was trying to make is the difficultly in getting that mayday heard by London in the first place. Sadly my impression of London Info on a sunny weekend is that unlike Scottish Info, there are too many BS (appropriate abbreviation!) requests going on to make it a reliable emergency channel.

Not knocking the guys and gals who work in London Info in any way - they have a huge area to cover and the sheer number of my fellow pilots who cant seem to fly from A-B or even A-A without passing their life story over the radio overload the system on sunny weekends IMHO

[JW411]

Perhaps it is time for a bit of levity?

I have personally never had to put out a Mayday in anger in more than 50 years of aviation.

However, some 40 years ago, a friend of mine had an engine fire in the middle of the night somewhere near Araxos in Greece and out went his Mayday;

Athens ATC: "Station calling Mayday stand by; Speedbird 221 go ahead with your position report!!!!!"

Things like that don't happen any more. Do they?

[EddieHeli]

My experience of working London Info on a sunny weekend has been similar to Mariner9, and I did put 121.5 on the standby frequency as I couldn't get a word in edgeways on London Info whilst crossing the channel. On initial contact after leaving Southends frequency, I was asked to stand by, eventually called back after coasting out at Dover, told to call mid channel, but was coasting in to France before I could get a word in. Wouldn't have felt able to get a mayday in on that frequency on that occasion. They also seemed to be working traffic all over the place not just the channel. Heard someone around the Cheshire area on frequency going to the Isle of Man.
So whilst I agree its generally best to stay with who you are, London Info on a good flying weekend is an exception I think, unless they get more frequencies to spread the workload out.

[mm_flynn]

... Wouldn't have felt able to get a mayday in on that frequency on that occasion...
That is the bit I don't understand. When someone blathers on for 20 seconds with their life story pretty much everyone else shuts up. If you make your Mayday 20 seconds long no one will be talking by the time you finish. You don't need to wait for a gap to push the transmit button, sure you will step on someone, but everyone else will stop and if you speak slowly and clearly you will get through.

Also, I have the impression that the centres MUX together the various feeds from antennas and can use the differential signal strength to do a better job of pulling some information out of a two at once transmission than we can in the air.

[Moli]

Some myths being bandied around re D&D coverage. The 3000 feet coverage that often gets generalised is for accurate DF fixing not RT coverage or SSR/PSR coverage. As for RT coverage over the channel, I had cause to put out a mayday call a couple of years ago in the Abbeville area at about 1800 feet on 121.5. It was picked up very quickly and emergency services informed....all by D&D at London Centre :D

Moli

[Jetblu]

I had reason to make a mayday call some years ago over the channel.
I was working London on box 1 and Lydd on box 2. People do not seem to come up for air with London info, passing all sorts of details, including what is in their sandwiches. I flicked the switch and made my position call with Lydd who relayed my message. :ok:

[fisbangwollop]

MM Flynn.......thanks for the sensible post......it seems you pay your money and take your choice but what I can confirm is that the last Mayday I handled at Scottish Info was on a very very very busy Easter Sunday when every man and their dog was up flying and talking on my frequency......the moment the Mayday call was made every one of those men and dogs shut it and allowed me to get the Mayday sorted very quickly with the telephone help of Scottish D&D.......so Mariner9 if in the future your not interested in listening to those in the know please feel free to tootle around without talking to anyone as seems to be your wish.

[Kolossi]

Human nature being what it is, when {say it in a nasal voice} "Golf-Kilo-November-Oscar-Braaaavoooh" is relating their entire route and lunch plans, would they possibly not just keep talking in the hope you'll realise your "mistake" and stop transmitting?

Would keying morse S-O-S on the PTT be likely to get a more immediate stop response even from them? It would only take about 3 secs max, then straight into Mayday-Mayday-Mayday?

Just a low hour pilot thinking out loud ...

[Moli]

FBW, i think you are being a little oversensitive. The point M9 is trying to make is the frequency congestion that can be experienced with London Info specifically, why try to battle to get a mayday call out when you can simply dial in another freq & speak to the experts directly. If the London info freq was quiet then thats a different matter but again it would depend on the type of emergency being experienced.
Moli

[007helicopter]

German banker named as missing pilot - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10198122/German-banker-named-as-missing-pilot.html)

Also being treated as a missing person enquiry and a photo released, interesting wording.

[BackPacker]

if you are ever in a "situation" and have an epirb in the glove box activate the thing before you go in.

What I'm missing in this discussion is the fact that even a modern 406 MHz ELT/EPIRB/PLB will still transmit a homing signal on 121.5. So if you activate it (and I strongly suggest you do so at the earliest opportunity, particularly over water), you would be stepping on your own transmissions if you were to transmit on 121.5.

Does anybody know the signal strength of your average ELT/EPIRB/PLB vs. the signal strength of your average VHF COM? Can you still send and receive on 121.5 while the ELT/EPIRB/PLB is activated?

I seem to remember one post on here from quite a while ago (personal account of the aircraft ditching in the Irish sea perhaps?), that suggested you can't. That would make a strong case for not changing to 121.5, but staying on the current frequency.

[Vaughan Tarrier]

For me, there's some resonance in the names of the two service providers: Distress and Diversion are there to provide an alerting service and deal with aircraft in distress and diverting; FIS is there to provide a FIS. The units are equipped, and those staffing them are trained, for these purposes. Forgive me if this is stating the obvious.

In terms of coverage, don't forget that the flight crew of the majority of UK-operated airliners, and many others, monitor 121.5 on a spare box. This, providing you don't mind your distress or urgency call perhaps being relayed, provides effective coverage down to ground level.

[talkpedlar]

Please don't flame me here..I'm not normally of the conspiracy fraternity..

However...

1 It's pretty unusual, but not of course not unique, for a single to cross to Le Touquet with just one POB...

2 It's pretty rare, but of course not unique, for a single to be lost on an England to France channel crossing...

3 This incident occurred at almost exactly mid-channel..as far as possible vfrom available S&R facilities..

No disrespect but I felt immediately uneasy and even a tad suspicious when details of this accident first began to emerge.

We'll see..

TP

[dublinpilot]

TP,

I'm not sure that I can agree with your comments.

It's pretty unusual, but not of course not unique, for a single to cross to Le Touquet with just one POB...
I would have thought it very likely that many many singles cross with one person on board every day. If I look at my local airport, and remove training flights from the picture, I suspect that the majority of aircraft take off with just one person on board. Le Touquet isn't a big flight for most of the South East. It's little more than a local flight.

It's pretty rare, but of course not unique, for a single to be lost on an England to France channel crossing...
Agreed. But not unique as you say. There are a few ditchings every year.

This incident occurred at almost exactly mid-channel..as far as possible vfrom available S&R facilities..

It's hardly far from S&R. Perhaps as far as is possible in the middle of the Channel, but certainly not far. If you were trying to be far from S&R there are a lot other places in the UK that you could go which would be further.

The Channel isn't that wide. You could glide to shore from a reasonable proporition of it.

Being mid channel could be relevant though because it would be the time that a pilot would be changing or preparing to change frequencies. If they were flying in instrument condition, low down, the distraction in checking and setting up the next frequency could be very relevant.

The facts don't look at all unusual to me. The only thing that raises any other thoughts would be the newspaper reports, but we've all learnt to be suspisious of news paper reports.

dp

[Rod1]

fisbangwollop

I have been backwards and forwards over the short crossing a fair bit. Last time was today. At a weekend you could shout Mayday for 20 sec and nobody would hear you as at least two others would be trying to talk. Most people cross at around 3000ft. At that height I understand 121.5 coverage, in that area, is very good on both sides. I really think 121.5 is a vastly better prospect in that area. Up north I am sure you are right.

Rod1

[Jonzarno]

I have never flown the Channel VFR although I have done so many times IFR in airways so I apologise if this idea doesn't work.

On the subject of people hearing Mayday calls from a VFR pilot when the radio is busy, would suggest making contact with a radar service before coasting out and, if something goes wrong and the circuit is busy, squawk 7700 and they will call you.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<If something goes wrong and the circuit is busy, squawk 7700 and they will call you.>>

If they have radar... and if they have SSR.

[Jonzarno]

<<If something goes wrong and the circuit is busy, squawk 7700 and they will call you.>>

If they have radar... and if they have SSR.


I did suggest "making contact with a radar service" They mostly do have radar :p (and, I thought also SSR?)

[BackPacker]

On the subject of people hearing Mayday calls from a VFR pilot when the radio is busy, would suggest making contact with a radar service before coasting out and, if something goes wrong and the circuit is busy, squawk 7700 and they will call you.

There is no universal radar coverage at typical VFR OCAS altitudes across the whole of the Channel - or the North Sea for that matter. Only if you use the Dover-Calais route can you be under radar surveillance throughout the crossing.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-04DBDF67BB8714BA18C9C36D50D1F5DC/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/ENR/NON_AIRAC/EG_ENR_6_1_6_3_en_2013-04-04.pdf

Note that not all units are 24/7. Manston is supposedly 7 days a week, but 9-17 only. Plymouth is only Monday to Thursday 9-17 and Friday 9-14. (UK AIP ENR 1.6)

If I cross Calais-Dover or Koksijde-Dover I prefer to talk to Manston, if possible. But for all other routes you don't get a lot of choice. It's typically London Info or nothing at all.

[Fuji Abound]

Thats not quite true.

Lille will have you on radar from well before the boundary even if they dont give you a service.

Personally i always find lyd useful. While it is non radar they will provide radio cover for a coast out at lyd usually with a cheery report ten miles south abeam. Were you to need assistance you could report your position to them.

[patowalker]

You're better off calling Lille in an emergency on the short crossing, because the closest SAR helicopter is based at Le Touquet.

Les hélicoptères de la MARINE NATIONALE (http://sauvmer.free.fr/helico/helicomarine.html)

[A and C]

Most of the talk above has totally missed the point about 121.5 coverage, the coverage is total over most of the world simply because almost everywhere there will be an airliner in the cruise at FL300+ monitoring 121.5.

When an airliner crew hears a distress call on 121.5 they will relay the call to the ATS unit they are working.

My advice is that if you do find yourself about to ditch, turn your GPS to the mode that displays the radial and distance from the nearest VOR/DME and transmit the radial & distance and that you are about to ditch, a position report in this format it unlikely to be misunderstood by an airline crew and can be put into the FMS of a rescue helicopter in seconds to get help to you as fast as posable.

(If I was to hear such a message when in an airliner I would put is onto the fix page of my FMS to record it. If I was in a light aircraft and near the location I would put it into the user waypoints of the GPS and if I could try to get to the location to help direct the rescue helicopter by locating and keeping the people in sight.)

Your last transmission can be as low as fifty feet and the very accurate position report will be with the authority's within seconds via a relay from an airliner the problem is then close range conspicuity for that you need a PLB, flares & a sea marker to enable the helicopter crew to locate you quickly.

The aim of the game is to take the search out of search & rescue.

[jollyrog]

I always go with Lydd too, it's the easiest to get a word in with.

I have on several occasions done a practice PAN with D&D on the way back from Le Touquet, just after crossing the FIR. From 4,500 feet, RT is S5. Every time, they've been able to give me a position fix based on triangulation, sometimes with only two sites as it's right at the edge of their triangulation area. Their fixes have always been accurate.

If you are up nice and high if/when your problems start, you'll have plenty of time to get a call in to anybody you like. If you insist at crossing at 2,000 feet, as some people do, it will be a different story.

[mm_flynn]

D&D is a great service in the UK and of course 121.5 is well monitored by a range of entities, including airliners. However, the overall point of a number of posters (including myself), is that having already established two way contact with an agency and having your radio tuned to them, in most cases, you will be better off broadcasting your initial Mayday to the agency you are already speaking with rather than spending time and mental bandwidth switching to another box, or dialling up 121.5 (even if it is a simple button push). The specific case I would switch to D&D (but not 121.5 generally) is if I was not talking with a radar unit and was unsure of (or unable to articulate) my position and had reason to believe I might not be in SSR coverage, when D&D's VDF fixing capability would be specifically very useful.

Of course if you just getting a basic service from an aerodrome 10 miles away (why?), or not talking to anyone in particular, 121.5 is the obvious choice.

There is also the London Information case, where people indicate they call up, get a service, and in the specific case motivating the thread are expecting London to come back with a new squawk and handover for Lille, etc.; but the frequency is too busy to actually get a mayday out - a case I fundamentally don't believe exists in any material way, as if it is so busy you can't get a Mayday out, why would you try and get a routine service from them - hence you would choose to be in contact with someone else or no one at all (and then clearly 121.5 is your goto frequency).

[Fuji Abound]

It has been done to death, but actually as tempting as it maybe, the radio is hardly the first priority in any event. Stabilise or resolve the emergency is what we are taught. In the event of a engine failure without warning (a very rare event) setting the aircraft up for a glide is far more important.

Frankly the only good a Mayday is going to be is telling the rescue service they need to look for you and where to look. Therefore unless you are at very low level having stabilised or resolved a Mayday giving your position will likely be heard by whoever you happen to be talking to even if you repeat the call a few times over the top of everything and everyone!

Personally I always know where to instantly find my GPS co-ordinates and I think it is good practice to make sure your eyes go straight to this information. It is all that really matters.

I also agree that an EPIRB is almost vital over the sea. Frankly once you have ditched you need some form of locator beacon as you will drift surprisingly quickly and more likely than not the aircraft will sink with varying degrees of rapidity.

However, to repeat myself, if you don't get down reasonably in one piece, all the Maydays in the world aren't going to be much help so concentrate on that part first - I know it is tempting to think otherwise!

[A and C]

You make your point well but this is exactly why an accurate position fix at a late stage just before the ditching is so vital ...... It gives you time to get the aircraft prepared to ditch and gets the most accurate fix broadcast to a large number of people, range and bearing from a known local VOR is most likely to be the easiest format to broadcast and the least likely to be misunderstood after all DVR 090/15 is a lot less writing than the LAT / LONG and a lot quicker to get into the FMC or GPS of any aircraft coming to your assistance.

[Fuji Abound]

A and C

Yes, I agree and thank you.

The VOR is a good point but that assumes the aircraft has the equipment and the pilot the ability to give the information. Perhaps GPS co-ordinates are simpler for many, but I agree more lengthy and possible to be lost in transmission.

[A and C]

Most panel mounted GPS units will give you the radial & distance to the nearest VOR with just two button presses and R/D from any other point in the database with a little more work.

I am not too familiar with hand held GPS units but I am sure someone on tis forum knows how to get R/D from a VOR quickly on one.

The advantage of using a VOR R/D is that all the airliners who hear your VHF transmission from 50 ft will instantly be able to understand it and fix your position in the fix page of the FMS within seconds.

[flybymike]

Many upmarket GPSs or software programmes give a plain English readout of present position which does not require any button pushing.

Whether your average jet jockey would know whereabouts little Tolpuddle In The Marsh is, is another matter.

[Fuji Abound]

I guess I was catering for all - still not that many people have panel mount GPS, but I think most have some form of GPS be it an iPad, iPhone, some other hand held device or the full works. At most there is a single button push if the information is already on the map display (or you can change the settings so it is, which I think is a good idea).

[A and C]

Exactly my point the guys who will hear your last transmission before you hit the sea need to be able to quickly assess the data and pass it on

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

While all of the points made on this thread have merit, they have sort of turned a discussion on a ditching of an aircraft and the loss of an airman without a Mayday call into a teach-in on D&D, Maydays and the like which gives me two problems:

1 My thoughts are still with my friend and colleague Sascha, named recently as the pilot, who it seems we may have lost, though not all hope has gone yet while the police conduct their enquiries. But I fear we may never know what happened on his flight - he may have been in a spin, upside down, dis-oriented, without windscreen after a huge bird strike, fighting with a spluttering engine, a control issue or structural failure, or unconscious and not on autopilot, or something else quite nasty. But he may have just been unable to get round to the Communicate bit in Aviate-Navigate-Communicate.

2 Whilst the knowledge-sharing is very worthy (for which many thanks) it may never be found again if anyone wishes to understand emergency best practice, which is a shame. So I wonder if the PPrune forum manager might arrange for the thread to be tagged or re-instated under Mayday best practice or something similar, at least that would be a lasting legacy of our friend Sascha. I wonder if others agree ?

In my own case, flying that particular SR22 or others, I always had in my mind what I'd do in an emergency - in case I was incapacitated or upside down - and it was always about cleaning up the plane to glide at best or slow down to 133kts to pull the chute at worst, and I trained to do this in seconds. Radio calls were my last concern and position reports definitely so, but I always flew with one GNS430 set with the lat&long displayed in case I got the chance to relay it but expected that a Mayday on 121.5 would help D&D triangulate my position. Hence my earlier point about depressing the frequency change knob to immediately get 121.5 up. I've even had dreams about these steps, many times.

Even with all that the Cirrus glass cockpit gives you, having experienced 3 near misses in the UK from non-transponding aircraft (one a head-on with an RAF Grob in the Manchester Low Level route) I gave up flying some months ago which saddens me. Sascha's accident underscores how risky it has all become and his young wife must be devastated.

[mikehallam]

In the instance under discussion I imagine something that he couldn't handle overcame the hapless pilot.

In general you guys have commented on radio aids for this sort of water crossing. Where one possibly can I personally look out for and would try to ditch in front of a likely slow looking vessel.

[Same technique as keeping potential forced landing fields in sight when aviating over land.]

That way someone else may see & report it as well as try a rescue.


mike hallam.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

MikeH - exactly, another scene in my dream :-)

[fisbangwollop]

Golf-mike-mike......thanks for your sensible posts on this. To be honest I have now stopped posting as I have said before despite my 40 years in ATC and the last twenty working my day job at Scottish Info it appears you will always get guys out there that seem to know better despite what those with the inside knowledge have. However I would still expect any aircraft I am working to make an initial distress call on my Scottish info frequency....and why? Well as I am already working that traffic I already have most of the details before the Mayday is recieved i.e. Callsign, aircraft type and if flying over the water SOB as thats something I always as pilots for as they coast out......
My own actions on hearing the Pan or Mayday will to be acknowledge, then ask if able to Squawk 7700 ( this will then alert D&D if the contact visible on their radar) also at the same time that I am speaking to the aircraft in distress I will have called D&D and be passing all the details that I know at that stage.....then either D&D depending on the incident will give assistance in anyway needed, either through me or if necessary will offer the aircraft a discrete frequency to work on.

As I said before,the last 4 Mayday's I have worked,D&D through RCC had a helicopter airborne and on the way to their last position despite the aircraft managing to either divert safely to a airfield close by or indeed make a forced field landing.

[007helicopter]

Golf Mike Mike

Thank you for your post, can you tell us a bit more about Sasha and his flying experience, when he started, did he learn in a Cirrus, how many hours in type, how often he flew, was he a new equity owner in N147KA?

I had flown as a passenger in N147KA and had a great deal of respect for the way the group was founded and run, although the group model was ultimately not sustainable.

Reality is we do not have a clue what happened, seemed like he was unable, forget to get a May Day in, or chose not to.

Very weird wording from the police to be treating as a missing person investigation and coordinating with foreign police forces, on the very slim chance he is alive it would be a fascinating story but I fear he was overcome with whatever problem he faced.

[Whopity]

The underlying purpose of the FRTOL is that all radio operator's know how to make and handle messages relating to the safety of life. (ITU Radio Regulations Article 37) Once upon a time if you could not recite a MAYDAY call you would fail the RT Test, now it seems even the CAA regard ELP as more important than Emergency message handling.

[Moli]

FBW

Please correct me if I am wrong...It seems you are implying yours is the only valid opinion on this matter by referring to guys out there that know better than you despite your 40 years of ATC experience. Do you know the experience or occupations of the other posters? Some of their knowledge may also be of significant value to this discussion. The scenario being discussed took place over the English Channel, do you have any experience of the RT loadings on London Info on a busy weekend? A lot of the posters do and know how difficult it can be to get a call in to London Info when its busy... Mayday or not. Do you know how reliable the London Info coverage is at low level in that area, is it better than D&D on 121.5? Is there more likelihood of being picked up on 124.600 midway across at 500 feet than there is by an EGLL inbound at FL150 directly overhead monitoring 121.5? There are many different opinions being offered, ranging from airline crews, GA pilots, ATCOs and D&D controllers. A FISO based at an area ACC is not necessarily the best person to call even if you are already on the frequency, it is certainly an option to be considered dependant on the circumstances at the time but most definitely is not the only show in town.

Moli

[Twiddle]

Pure guess, but I'd guess the bulk of pilots have Manston on frequency and L2K on the flipflop at that point?

Does seem strange to have said nothing, but stranger things have happened.

Another poster said that radar=ssr, not always, ssr=bunts, Southend didn't have SSR until a while ago, but 7700 will certainly get someones attention.

T

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

007H

I'm afraid I don't have detailed information on Sascha's flying experience but no doubt this will come out of the investigation and it's perhaps more respectful for it to work that way. He had flown KA and several other FreeFlight aircraft.

[fisbangwollop]

Moli.......not at all but I am implying if your already in comms with an ATC agency then please make your initial Distress call with that agency.....certainly both London and Scottish have direct line comms with D&D so help is only seconds away. As for London coverage no I cannot comment on that And yes I fully understand how busy the London FIR frequency can be but I can Assure you a Mayday call would be heard amongst the rabble of noise.

I would also recommend that if able to do so at the time (remembering aviate,navigate,communicate) would be to Squawk 7700 as that would then show SOS on every radar that had you in cover and also alert D&D to the fact someone was in distress......the normal action from them would be a quick call to London/Scottish info asking if they were working traffic in the observed position...with mode S even better as they would have the ident of the aircraft.

So no Moli...all I am saying is if you already have contact with an ATC agency please advise them first of your problem without blindly trying to call D&D.......obviously if your not in comms with anyone and yes there are loads of folk out there that don't bother then an initial call on 121.5 to D&D would be appropriate. :cool:

[maxred]

Moll...I have been following this thread purely as a source of information on the accident in the Channel.

However, FBW made a very pertinent point, then appeared to get set upon for stating, which I thought, was the blindingly obvious.

If you are speaking with someone on box 1, be it London FIS, ScottIsh FIS, or Heathrow approach, then that would be to whom I would make a Mayday call, in the unfortunate event I had to make one. I do not fly with box 2 on 121.5, maybe some do, but I generally have a pertinent comms frequency on box 2. The set up on box 1 would be who I am speaking to, the standby is who I may speak with next, and the third is in prepartion for either ATIS at my destination, or the next in line.

But each to his own, and everyone fly's their aeroplane, I assume, in the manner they feel safest.

[IRpilot2006]

A 7700 squawk is going to be visible over a huge distance.

London Control for example see a long way into the land area of N France i.e. way across the Channel.

This accident doesn't make sense, but then a lot of things that some pilots do don't make sense. For all we know he might have been flying at 1000ft over the water. That sort of thing will be in the AAIB report, but by the time that comes out most people will have forgotten about it.

The police comments are very interesting. They must have a reason for saying that.

[A and C]

I'm not sure if I am one of the "guys who always know better" but on two occasions I have been in the position of being able to help the SAR assets communicate when they have had technical problems (usually the HF) and being at low level are out of VHF range.

Having a very accurate starting point for the SAR services to start from has to be a major advantage during a search, an aircraft can glide a long way from 2000 ft and it is a very big sea when you are looking for a guy who is up to his neck in water, with all the airliners monitoring 121.5 this very accurate ditching position becomes available far beyond the range of the land based VHF triangulation system.

[fisbangwollop]

A&C Having a very accurate starting point for the SAR services to start from has to be a major advantage during a search, an aircraft can glide a long way from 2000 ft and it is a very big sea when you are looking for a guy who is up to his neck in water, with all the airliners monitoring 121.5 this very accurate ditching position becomes available far beyond the range of the land based VHF triangulation system.

Not sure what your getting at here but yes I agree, thats why I made the original post about trying to let ATC know at the earliest opportunity as to the predicament you are in......and yes after spending 20 years as a voulanteer lifeboat Coxwain I also agree about a guy up to his neck in the water is very difficult to see!

[Moli]

Maxred

Apologies, I feel I have perhaps made my point badly. The point I was trying to make is I disagree with FBW’s assertion that you should always make your initial emergency call on the freq you are on at the time. In most circumstances I would agree with that but the case in point was about a channel crossing and the validity of declaring a mayday on the London Info freq. Anyone who offered an opinion contrary to FBW was accused of “sadly that shows how little you know about how the system works” and “not interested in listening to those in the know”. Incidentally, there are also people “in the know” on here that don’t work at Scottish Information.

I wholeheartedly agree that in general terms if you are in contact with an ATSU and have an emergency then it is highly probable that declaring it on that freq is the way ahead. However we were discussing particular circumstances involving the Channel crossing with London Info and the point I was trying to make is there are times that 124.600 is a very busy and congested frequency especially so during sunny weekends. Even if you manage to begin your transmission there is an excellent chance that pilot B many miles away at 2000 wont hear your transmission on 124.600 and will talk over the top of you blissfully unaware that you are trying to get a mayday out and London Info wont hear it or at best get a garbled message…it happens.

All I was suggesting and disagreeing with FBW over, is that there are other options and considerations (as suggested by several posters) other than religiously transmitting on the freq presently in use particularly if on a busy London Info freq. If I were crossing the channel with London Info on a typically busy RT day and wished to declare a Mayday, I would squawk 7700 and call D&D on 121.5 in a heartbeat.

Just my opinion, if you don’t agree with me, that is absolutely fine, I most certainly will not question anyone’s knowledge or accuse others of ignoring one in the know.

Safe flying
Moli

[cats_five]

When I did my radio course we were told to make an emergency call on the frequency we were working, or on 121.5 if not in contact with ATC.

[Moli]

FBW

If you happen to be reading this, I am not trying to be difficult I just disagree with your point of view and how you have reacted to some other posters input.

I can see that you are very passionate about what you do and its nice to have a SCATCC FISO being so pro GA on here as you have been over the years.
No hard feelings;)
Moli

[mm_flynn]

Moli,

I understand the general point of thinking about what one is doing; but if the frequency is so congested you can't even get a Mayday out, why try and work it. There are a number of other agencies you could work in that part of the world. After all, about the only thing London Info is going to do on that trip is coordinate your squawk with Lille - - which they will fail to do on a timely basis with that much RT traffic. (note, not a dig at London who I find to be top blokes on the occassions I need to use them)

[fisbangwollop]

Moli
I can see that you are very passionate about what you do and its nice to have a SCATCC FISO being so pro GA on here as you have been over the years.
No hard feelings
Moli

Thanks Moli, for sure I am passionate about the job I do, I even give up a fair bit of my spare time to visit our local Scottish flying clubs to promote the ATC service's available free of charge to our GA community.......even tomorrow although up north on holiday I plan to spend an hour or so at the Dornoch fly-in to hopefully put a face to the voice they often hear on the radio.......as for hard feelings do not be silly, those that know me will tell you I am a grumpy old duffer that does not suffer fools gladly but would go to the end of the world and back to help any fellow aviator or sailor. :ok:

[sdbeach]

Let me add a bit of history to this discussion about declaring an emergency on a congested frequency.

While researching a Cirrus accident from 2010 in which the pilot was flying VFR and not talking to ATC, he declared an emergency on 121.5. We have an audio recording of that transmission and the follow-up. Several sectors heard the transmission and attempted to reach the pilot in sequence. Unfortunately, the replies from the pilot in distress were fragmentary, took several retransmissions, and lacked some crucial information to clarify if west or east of a named location.

This pilot in that earlier accident was not talking to anyone. And it took a while to sort things out. Time that others might not have.

My take-away lessons for handling an emergency:

1) Best to be in communication when IFR or even VFR, what folks in the US call flight-following

2) Best to declare with the agency who is following you since they have your info, especially location

3) Best to squawk 7700 as a redundancy to the radio

4) Best to monitor 121.5, as strongly urged by the FAA when you have 2 radios, to help others

5) Carry a 406mHz PLB on your person, and know how to activate it

Cheers
Rick

* edited to clarify that this history applies to an older Cirrus accident

[jollyrog]

I'm going to tune to Scottish Information each time I cross the Channel in future, they're there to help.

[fisbangwollop]

Jollyrog...I'm going to tune to Scottish Information each time I cross the Channel in future, they're there to help.


If you nean the North Channel well hopefully we will be there to help.....if you mean the Englsh Channel maybe it is your failed attempt at humour?:ugh:

[Talkdownman]

it is your failed attempt at humour
I don't think so...it made me laugh...!

[007helicopter]

Rick when you say "we have a recording" who do you mean by we, have you been consulted by rescue services? Is the recording in the public domain?

Duncan

[sdbeach]

Rick when you say "we have a recording" who do you mean by we, have you been consulted by rescue services? Is the recording in the public domain?

Duncan
(To clarify, my reference to an audio recording related to an earlier 2010 Cirrus fatal accident.)

We = COPA. I used it in my safety review at the M11 Migration in Mobile last month.

No, we were not contacted by rescue services. The audio recording was produced by the ATC folks after the fact. It is mentioned as the transcript of ATC communications in the NTSB investigation docket.

Not in the public domain as an audio recording, although I am in the process of posting the M11 safety review on the web. It will be part of my discussion of the human factors involved with the Morton, Washington fatal Cirrus accident.

Cheers
Rick

[007helicopter]

Ah, misunderstood, I thought you were referring to this accident.

[Moli]

Rick

The setup here in the UK is different. We don't have flight following in the way the US does and the guys at Scottish & London Info don't have radar (London has visibility of a display about 6 feet away but the FISOs are not licensed to use it for control purposes, not sure about the Scottish setup?) , they don't allocate discrete squawks so therefore they never have you identified or know where you actually are.
Forgive me if I am telling you something you already know but another difference over here is we have a dedicated unit of ATCOs that cover the whole of the UK and their sole job is to handle emergency traffic on 121.5 and 243.0. They have primacy on the emergency freqs and it would be them (D&D) that would answer all calls on the freqs not ATSUs that happen to be monitoring as part of their spare capacity. The D&D cell has all sorts of kit to assist them that normal ATSUs don't have access to.

Moli

[Moli]

FBW

Rest assured I will be availing myself of your services over the August bank holiday weekend, wx permitting. I am flying up your neck of the woods to Barra Benbecula and Stornoway.... GBIPV, look after us and please provide beautiful weather;)

Moli

[007helicopter]

Sam yes possible, on a practical level it is quite hard (not sure if possible) to open a Cirrus door in flight to allow access out, you could I guess more easily remove / smash a window to vacate the aircraft.

However unlikely or far fetched this would seem I am very sure it would not be a first in GA.

My bet however is a regular loss of control but as previously pointed out could be a 100 different hypothetical reasons.

Still very strange wording of the police force which inevitably would create speculation.

[Sam Rutherford]

How about opening a door after deploying the CAPS at altitude?

Does the CAPS deployment automatically trigger the ELT? That would seem to be a logical idea but I don't know if that's how it has been designed.

[cockney steve]

At the beginning of this thread, it appeared unseemly to attempt any sort of humour...I therefore resisted posting
"shades of Lord Lucan"

Given the recent speculation and the unorthodox wording of the Plod statement, I feel it'll be OK now.

"shades of Lord Lucan"
One is also reminded of the disappearing canoist.

[Sam Rutherford]

"Officers say they are keeping an open mind as to what happened, and have launched a missing person investigation. They have released his photograph in case he has been spotted since the crash."

[Steve6443]

To those stating remain in contact, I flew (VFR) over the channel on Monday (from EBOS coasting down to LFAC and then across to DVR, stayed in contact with Lille Info then Manston Radar, not a problem. However where I had a slight problem was flying back yesterday where I decided to depart from Cambridge more or less direct over the North Sea to Middelburg; I was handed off to London Info once I'd just overflown the coast but after around 15 minutes, London Info became relatively silent - apart from the odd plane sending a report crossing the channel or similar, to which I heard no reply.

Obviously I was now out of range for the controller (and on Dutch Mil, which I'd put on box 2, was also an eery silence). I was thinking about this thread hoping there wouldn't be an additional comment added stating "another one went down en route from Cambridge to Middelburg", put 121.5 on the flip-flop and hoped for the best. About 10 minutes later I finally started receiving Dutch Mil.

So basically there are areas out over the North Sea where you won't necessarily be able to contact any ground based controllers and depending on the altitude of the unfortunate pilot, maybe he was just too low, trying to run low cloud or similar and sent out a Mayday which wasn't received anywhere, after all, if his Mayday stepped on someone who was also transmitting, then all that listeners would have heard was a squeal.....

[Talkdownman]

"shades of Lord Lucan"
One is also reminded of the disappearing canoist
..and probably the most famous of all: Government Minister John Stonehouse...

[A and C]

I doubt if the pilot transmitted a Mayday on 121.5 as there would have been a large number of airliners that would have received the transmission no matter how low the aircraft.

[Jetblu]

Guys,

Just be extremely careful with jumping to any conclusions with the speculation.

In am not suggesting that my thoughts are accurate in this instance, but I do speak with first hand experience from a slightly similar scenario.

Mr Schornstein is thought to be a successful RBS Banker. It would not be exaggerating to believe that he had a some hefty life insurance policies in place.

"IF" Mrs Schornstein has a "Kevin Crellin" (David Henderson) type of person assisting her, he/she will be lining there own pockets in the interim.
Insurance companies do not need much of any excuse not to honour any policy, so bear this in mind. Insurance companies also pay a "bounty"

Let's see how this one maps out.

[007helicopter]

Sam, no the CAPS does not trigger the ELT

I assume the door could be opened with ease once a CAPS pull has happened, in this particular case I am assuming no CAPS as the plane disintegrated suggesting extreme high impact, these are very strong aircraft and takes considerable G forces to break them up.

BTW my preferred ditching option over water would be CAPS giving more time to prepare for hopefully a safe exit into the dingy and make May Day calls etc.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

Before the conspiracy theorists get too carried away, it is of course equally likely I'm afraid that Sascha went down still strapped in his seat, together with the central part of the fuselage, though we don't know which bits they recovered, other than side panels with the KA reg on. If the engine were still attached to the cockpit floor and seats, it would all sink like a stone. So technically he is missing unaccounted for unless a dive were carried out to confirm one way or another, that's for the insurers and police I guess.

As operated in FreeFlight (KA only recently transferred out), all the SR22s had a 406 MHz ELT (activated manually or on violent impact), a 4-person liferaft, 4 life jackets, mode S transponder, Skywatch, TAWS-B terrain awareness, lightning detection, a specialised hammer to smash an exit in the side windows, and of course Autopilot, leading-edge icing protection, CAPS and air bag front seat belts as standard. They cruised comfortably at 150-155kts which would certainly be dis-orienting if majorly out of stable flight. Sadly there have now been a few instances of CAPS pulls not working correctly and if only partially deployed it would be pretty terminal.

If they recovered the MFD this would have a recording of all the major flight parameters leading up to the incident, not sure how long that could survive for though. KA wasn't a G3 that additionally have a flight data recorder fitted.

[UV]

At the beginning of this thread it was reported that no overdue action was taken for a number of hours. Not really surprising with the number flight plans, both in and out, that Le Touquet have to deal with...not an excuse a fact.

More than likely someone in the UK phoned the UK Police when they couldnt get hold of him and Plod therefore opened a missing person file and alerts the various rescue authorities.

I suspect nothing more sinister...but Im sure some will wish to hype it up for all its worth.

[Sir George Cayley]

GMC

Thanks for that post as it brings some welcome facts to the thread. I too think the pilot perished in the crash and with such a high speed impact was killed instantly which in a slight way might have been best - I have a fear drowning which limits my involvement with deep water.

One thing I've not spotted in this thread is any reference to NATS recording of radar data including SSR Mode S.

By now AAIB should have details of the track, height and any unusual deviations leading up to the impact point. I suspect in a few months much of the speculation here will be disproved and the 'normality' of this accident confirmed. I use the word normal as coined by Charles Perrow in the mid 80's.

The only nagging doubt is due to the words used by the Police, which to the best of my knowledge have not been redacted. If the person in question survived the crash one way he could have done so was by not being in the plane in the first place.

Is there conclusive evidence that he took off from the 'bushe? Was his car left in the car park? Is anyone else missing?

The sea can give up its secrets so maybe time will tell.

SGC

[IRpilot2006]

Not sure an ELT would be triggered in a Cirrus hanging under a chute. An ELT's G switch works on a shock along the normal axis as in a normal crash, not a slam vertically down. That is unless Cirrus use a different type of ELT to all the others.

[fisbangwollop]

Moli...Rest assured I will be availing myself of your services over the August bank holiday weekend, wx permitting. I am flying up your neck of the woods to Barra Benbecula and Stornoway.... GBIPV, look after us and please provide beautiful weather

Of course we will take care of you, we respect our customers up here and fall over backwards to be as helpfull as possible.....as for the weather well we have had a great month so far but if you come with a plan to expect 4 seasons in one day you will not go far wrong.....if you stage through Prestwick I will arrange a visit to the ATC centre if you so wished then you can see my side of the office :cool:

[Moli]

FBW

Thanks for the offer but I have had several work related visits to PC over the years.
Hopefully the Hebrides trip will come off, had to can cancel a few weeks ago for wx:(

Moli

[Sam Rutherford]

CAPS and ELT

Would it not make sense for them to be linked by the manufacturer - ie when the CAPS is pulled, the ELT is also activated?

Seems logical to me, but perhaps there's a reason not to do this?

Fly safe, Sam.

[007helicopter]

Sam it certainly would seem logical, I do not know the technical reasons why this would not be the case.

I know there has been at least one CAPS pull where the ELT was not manually activated or activated by the ground impact where it hampered the search.

[sdbeach]

Would it not make sense for them to be linked by the manufacturer - ie when the CAPS is pulled, the ELT is also activated
One consequence of activating the ELT is that the ELT overwhelms the radio channel. An automatic activation would make it difficult to transmit your location or status nor hear confirmation of plans to rescue you.

Cheers
Rick

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

The ELT transmits on 406 MHz so no conflict with normal airband frequencies, including 121.5

[RTN11]

The ELT transmits on 406 MHz so no conflict with normal airband frequencies, including 121.5

Which ELT?

Because this one transmits on 121.5

Kannad Fast find 220 PLB with GPS (http://www.transair.co.uk/sp+PLB-Personal-Locator-Beacons-Kannad-EPIRB-Kannad-Fast-find-220-PLB-with-GPS+3181)

[abgd]

According to this, it sends out a signal on both frequencies:

http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.com/techpubs/pdf/SR22Sup/13772-131R2.pdf

On another note, is it possible to set up a flight plan on a cirrus then just make it crash at a predetermined point? Could you just line-up and jump out, or would you have to take-off, set the autopilot, then parachute?

[belowradar]

On another note, is it possible to set up a flight plan on a cirrus then just make it crash at a predetermined point? Could you just line-up and jump out, or would you have to take-off, set the autopilot, then parachute?

Line up and jump out not possible due to doors and delay getting out once take off power set. You would most likely run yourself down.

Parachuting out also not likely due to doors /slipstream in flight. I opened both doors on a training flight recently to complete the Cirrus training item and demonstrated closing after slowing the aircraft close to stall speed. You need to be very close to stall to ensure that you can overcome the slipstream enough to close the door, even at that speed there is sufficient resistance to prevent a person exiting the door ( especially with a backpack chute) , would also need a lift once in the sea !

[IRpilot2006]

The only way to have an aircraft on autopilot and make it crash at a known point is to make it run out of fuel.

If you shut off the fuel cock and then jump out, that would do it. The engine stops (windmills), the aircraft slows down, still flying level on autopilot, and just before it stalls you open the door and jump out.

That way you could choose where to jump out.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

Well it seems the AAIB has no intention of salvaging the aircraft from the sea bed to find out what really happened and bizarrely the police still have this down as a missing person enquiry. This is contrary to the French authorities action over the Cirrus lost off Guernsey a while back. So Sascha's young wife and his work and flying friends are hoping to find out the truth themselves - please pledge if you can and feel strongly as I do that the AAIB shouldn't have left so many facts unanswered.
http://www.justgiving.com/local/project/findhim

[Unusual Attitude]

Very sad to read of this incident and that AAIB have decided not to recover the wreckage but I'm sure they realise the cost implications.

Chartering Subsea vessels is my day job and I've done work like this for the MOD recovering crashed aircraft etc as well as lots of salvage work as an aside to the mainstream Oil and Gas works we do. I'm sorry to say GBP £10,000 really isnt going to get you very far at all.

To find the wreckage you'll need to comb the area using sidescan sonar which could take days and days. Once you find it I'd then suggest using an Observation class ROV would work out much cheaper than divers depending on the water depth.

You then have things like port dues, fuel, lubricants and a lot of other additional costs to add on. Your best bet is to grab a small survey vessel as close to the location as possible to try to get a sonar / visual survey done then decide what to do from there.

Regards

UA

[JDA2012]

UA - If the aircraft came down where the initial report indicated (15nm south of Dungeness), the seabed should be at no more than 30-40m, which is easily within recreational dive limits (that would be my other way of passing weekends), though I am not sure what the currents are like in that part of the Channel as the nearest to this I've dived is off Devon & Cornwall.

You would, of course, have to know where to dive first, and there is a great deal of other wreckage in the Channel which might make locating a small aircraft rather difficult, but it should not be a problem getting people down there if a location can be established. Not sure what the pros would charge for such an operation but it does not seem that it would require any technical diving.

[abgd]

So all in all it sounds most likely that he perished in the accident, RIP.

[BackPacker]

Would it not make sense for them to be linked by the manufacturer - ie when the CAPS is pulled, the ELT is also activated?

Another issue would be that the more variables (read: wiring and dependencies) you add to a system, the more complex it becomes, and less resistant to failure.

Because of this, you will want both CAPS and ELT to work completely independent from any other system there is in the aircraft.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

UA / JDA

Re location, my understanding is that the pilot's wife has already been in touch with salvage companies and the authorities (eg AAIB / ATC) who have supplied a position of the likely wreckage site from last Sunday. She has also just put in a plea for help on BBC South Today tonight, appearing with Hampshire Police - who are still asking for information as to the pilot's whereabouts, doh ?!?

I also understand that the insurance may cover reimbursement of 'reasonable' salvage and recovery costs so the £10k is a starter to get a crew to do an initial dive I think and other monies have already been pledged.

[Steve6443]

Reported in some of our "less reputable" rags is the fact that the pilot was a keen diver and sailor..... the plot thickens......

[gyrotyro]

Belowradar

Should you really be opening the doors in flight as part of a training manoeuvre ?

I don't think your insurance company would like to hear about that and I certainly wouldn't consider it good airmanship.

I have had doors come open in flight and it is not a situation that should be taken likely as there are demons out there ready to catch you out and ruin your day/life.

I would like to see where it is shown as part of a training syllabus !

[belowradar]

GYROTYRO

As you are questioning this point I will leave it with you to figure out if you are a CSIP and what the transition training syllabus might contain.

I don't think this is an appropriate thread for a discussion about that

I was posting to answer a query raised in order to provide an answer and highlight what I believe is an unlikely scenario

[Cows getting bigger]

The only way to have an aircraft on autopilot and make it crash at a known point is to make it run out of fuel.

Not true. In fact, it is very easy to get the autopilot to crash the aircraft in a pre-defined area. I would agree that hitting a specific point is a little more complex but not beyond the realms of possibility.

[gasax]

Like Unusual Attitude I have a fair bit of subsea experience in oil and gas. £10k would fund some amateurs divng on a known site.

Finding a light aircraft in tidal water with poor-ish visibility and piles of other wreckage on the seabed? You can search for months.

A light aircraft can easily travel several hundred metres before it reaches the seabed, it may well continue to move - until too heavy or restrained by something. The only way to find it is a sidescan survey and then ROV on all the likely objects - of which there are likely to be many.

'Known positions' are actually just vague approximations in this game. Unless there is a team of committed amateurs doing this work the costs of fidnign and recovering the aircrafft would considerably outweigh the new hull cost.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

the costs of fidnign and recovering the aircrafft would considerably outweigh the new hull cost.

But maybe not the 'cost' of finding a husband and laying him to rest?!

[Sallyann1234]

I've seen sonar plots of the channel around there. There's a huge amount of rubbish, bits of shipwrecks, spread all over the place - some of it tangled up with old fishing nets.
Unless you have a very good idea of exactly where to start, you could spend weeks checking it all out. I'm not a diver, but I would have thought the shipping lanes present a problem too.

[cockney steve]

Given the Police statement, one would suspect the Pilot's life-insurers would be chary of paying out in a hurry.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

to FlyingOfficerKite

Well said, and the scale of the loss and anguish to his wife, family, friends and fellow pilots can be seen in them having already raised - in less than 2 days - over £10000 towards a private salvage expected to cost £10k per day, so it's a start.

Despite the AAIB's decision not to salvage the bulk of the aircraft and its pilot (so I guess their report will say "plane crashed, split into bits, sank off Dungeness, cause and pilot's whereabouts unknown"), the search for real answers and the collection will go on to bring Sascha home. :)

https://www.justgiving.com/local/project/findhim

[UV]

There have been quite a few light aircraft go down in the Channel in the last few years and the AAIB have not recovered any of them.

They would probably only be recovered if they were engaged in CAT.

Why should this be any different? (notwithstanding the hype of him being a banker, which wouldnt have raised an eyebrow a few years ago)

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

@ UV

There are perhaps a few reasons to recover the pilot and wreckage:

(a) it's perhaps easier to say don't when you aren't the pilot's wife or family who have been left with a glimmer of poorly-founded hope that the pilot may still be alive given the police's "missing person" classification of the case

(b) and with evidence that the CAPS was pulled but there being no sight of the parachute, the conspiracy theorists (and police?) can naively make 2 & 2 make 5 and deduce the pilot escaped with it, despite it being attached to the heavier and stronger parts of the fuselage frame that sank. So how long would the police and Interpol string the family along ?

(c) to understand why yet another Cirrus (the supposedly ultra-safe GA best-seller) has gone down, apparently with the CAPS being activated. While the Cirrus is safer on average, it has a worse than average record for fatalities, so the FAA, CAA and Cirrus ought to want to know why that is

(d) it crashed in only 30-40m of water so hardly in a deep inaccessible trench

(e) other countries do recover wherever possible, eg the French, so we lack their funds and/or attitude.

When the privately-funded salvage gets underway, as it surely soon will, it will be interesting to see what the AAIB do or say about what is recovered. Can they claim unfettered access to the wreckage despite having given up on salvaging it ?

[mm_flynn]

GMM,

While I have the deepest sympathy for family and friends of Sasha, and am very surprised by the Police's 'missing person approach'. I doubt recovering the aircraft will provide any safety clues beyond what the AAIB will deduce from weather aftercasts, assessment of pilot experience and radar tracks.

Ignoring the police angle, I expect the AAIB will have a long list of solid pieces of data that boil down to 'loss of control in marginal VMC/IMC', just like the French concluded on the prior SR22 into the Channel.

Unless the police transpire to have some significant information not generally available, their behaviour seems very odd. On the other hand, if there is such information salvage may be very necessary to close out the case (hence a bit of surprise at how this aspect is playing out)

[Jonzarno]

GMM

I may have missed this and, if so, sorry for being thick, but what is the evidence for a CAPS deployment?

[Jetblu]

I have been following this thread with great interest. It touches a nerve so close to home, having personally suffered an engine failure and subsequent ditching in the English Channel. I think there for the grace of God, I could have also gone!

Maybe I was lucky that I did not have a parachute, as my ditching was controlled all the way to splashdown, but saying that, a few have also been killed with no parachutes, so my guess now is that it all depends on how the dice is rolled.

The missing person hype and hysteria would automatically come as a result of "somebody" sticking the knife in and creating concern.
I recall at least 6 ditching's in the Channel, and each one has caused mayhem on the forums, mine being no exception.

I hope the salvage operation is able to give the family closure, and the AAIB an airframe to carry out there investigations.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

@ Jonzarno

Hi, the evidence of CAPS deployment came from one of the photographs of the wreckage found floating at the site. When CAPS is deployed, narrow channels housing the parachute lines are pulled away, leaving a primer-coloured stripe along the fuselage. These were evident on a piece of the wreckage. I can't find a way of enclosing a photo otherwise I could show you.

Whether the pilot deployed CAPS at altitude or too late, or if it was activated as a result of the impact with the sea is unknown. Either way, the chute canopy and lines haven't yet been found.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

@ JetBlu

My guess on how the police got to where they seemingly are would be:
- pilot was a German investment banker, so synonymous in their eyes with .....?
- pilot's hobbies also included diving and sailing .... so he just swam away ?
- Russian wife .... so international intrigue ?
- no sign of the parachute coupled with ignorance as to how it would deploy and sink with the airframe .... so he snatched it and sailed happily down to a waiting boat ?
- no sign of Sascha so they have to keep an open mind but are leaving it to friends and family to recover the evidence to close this out, bizarre ?!)

[Jetblu]

@GMM

Yes, I understand the potential reasoning behind some thoughts, but for the authorities to make such a derogatory statement, based on pure speculation is nothing more than scandalous hype and hysteria.

I cannot imagine for one minute what Yulia, family and friends are going through.

As I previously said, "somebody" has put the knife in and twisted matters to suit there own agenda.

Anyway, let's all treat that with the contempt it deserves, and concentrate on more important issues.

https://www.justgiving.com/local/project/findhim

[Swiss Cheese]

With N147KA probably having an insured hull value of approx US$275,000, the policyholders could request their aviation insurers to pay up to 10% to assist in the recovery of the wreckage. Hence, US$27,500 could be added to the fund. Better to commence the recovery attempt this month, before the Autumn weather starts in earnest.

[NigelOnDraft]

There are perhaps a few reasons to recover the pilot and wreckage:
GMM - issue is these might be valid reasons, but are they the concern/purpose of the AAIB?

As with any Govt Dept, the AAIB have come under severe cost pressures, and prioritised their work/costs. I know little of the circumstances of this accident, but am sure the AAIB will have decided if the costs of a search and recovery are likely to be well spent.

Let us suppose (and as I say, I know nothing about it), if there is enough circumstantial evidence that the aircraft was likely flown in a controlled manner into the sea, and at high speed, what is likely to be gained?

I am aware of another salvage operation some years ago where although the aircraft - visible at low water - was salvaged, the AAIB were very clear as to what costs were to be limited to. If that was exceeded, then abandon the salvage. Again a fatality.

NoD

[Contacttower]

Their fundraising campaign seems to be doing quite well...I do hope they manage to go ahead with the search.

[talkpedlar]

Whilst it is perfectly understandable that Sascha's family-members and acquaintances are affected emotionally by this incident, it should be remembered that, following an incident/accident/crime where it is believed that a life may have been lost, that soul is routinely and normally listed as missing until recovered. It seems that there is little evidence to support the notion that this case is being handled by the AAIB in any unusual, inappropriate or unfair manner. TP

[Jetblu]

@talkpedlar

What utter diatribe! Statistics clearly demonstrate that no other ditching in the English Channel, North Sea or Irish Sea etc, with the expected loss of life, has seen a missing person/s so publicly broadcast with 72 hours of the incident, thereby creating all this hype and hysteria nonsense.

Show us the evidence to support your notion or beliefs that this is just standard practice. Remember, you can use any of the AAIB reports if you so wish.

As others have said, I would have also honestly expected the Insurance company to spend some money and assist the family etc with laying the pilot to rest. Instead, the family are suffering while the fundraising is in progress.
I think that we should be made aware who the insurance company is so we can all steer clear.

[MichaelJP59]

Wouldn't it be worth approaching Cirrus for some funding help? Surely they must have an interest in how the CAPS performed and whether it was deployed or not?

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

I understand that the aircraft insurers have been approached, pointing to an explicit clause providing for salvage and recovery of the wreck and pilot. It's now with the underwriters.

Sascha was a flying friend of mine and dozens of others in FreeFlight and his family and work colleagues are devastated, so thanks to all who have posted here and on the Just Giving site with words of support, encouragement and offers of cash help. The salvage may well start this week but with a 3-day operation being likely his wife is still short of the required £30k by some margin.

[piperboy84]

I think that we should be made aware who the insurance company is so we can all steer clear

Perhaps not a bad idea, with probably half the UK pilots on this site from time to time, maybe a bit pressure could induce them to look at it from a commercial angle as opposed to a lawyers reading of the small print.

Anybody know who they are?

[Jetblu]

@GMM

You seem very close to the heart, and whilst I do understand the position that you are in, I may have correctly/incorrectly deciphered that the underwriters may be a leading Lloyd's syndicate, in which case, the brokers will be very renowned. If the brokers are whom I think they are, the amount of money outstanding for the salvage operation, which is ideally to take place within the next 3 days, is a drop in the ocean to them (pardon the pun) to contribute.

Name them here, and collectively I am sure we will all stand together.

On the other hand, and without wishing to start another Cirrus bashing thread (please don't) Cirrus has had more than it's fair share of aircraft falling out of the sky and coming down on parachutes. Why haven't they stumped up some money in this particular tragedy. The PR alone would stand them in good stead.

Finally, I did not know Sascha/family/Freeflight or anyone, but I truly feel for you all. FWIW I have posted the Just Giving link on the Flyer Forum in the hope that the flying fraternity there will also contribute.
FLYER Forums ? View topic - Aircraft missing - English Channel (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=84357)

Let's hope the next 24/48 hours produces some positive results.

[Jetblu]

@GMM

Please don't take my advice the wrong way, but I believe you should change the target figure to £30K if you can, from what you have previously said.

People logging on to the link may just casually glance at the target, and compare to the actual, without reading the entire thread.

Just saying......

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

@ JetBlu

Thanks for your continued interest, yes that's exactly the problem, people are beginning to say that the cause is well on target whereas they need £30k I believe not £10k. Unfortunately Just Giving don't allow the initially posted target to be changed so those visiting the site have to trawl thru some of the comments and narrative to realise it's £10k x 3 for a 3-day search. Ah well, not sure what else can be done other than word of mouth by those who've pledged so far.

[IRpilot2006]

Why would an insurer want to recover it, when the scrap value will be nil?

Just wondering...

[Swiss Cheese]

Apparently, some 30 million Euro was spent by aviation insurers for Air France and Airbus in the extended location and recovery of the A330 from Flight AF447 in the mid-Atlantic.

There are multiple reasons why an aviation insurer might be interested in a salvage operation, given that the aviation insurer here will be facing a hull claim in excess of US$250,000, and potentially other claims:

1. Aviation Hull insurers have rights of subrogation to recover their policy payouts in the event the loss is partly or wholly due to the fault of a third party. This tends to happen behind closed doors in private legal proceedings called Arbitrations, so they do not often see the public light of day.

2. Aviation Insurers always conduct due diligence in the course of considering whether any and all claims are valid and not excluded by the Policy, and its all-important small print. Loss Adjusters will already have been instructed to commence that task.

3. Aviation Insurers are considered to be "interested parties" in Coroners Inquests in England and Wales. The Inquest can be informative as to the questions or where, when and how a Deceased came by their death.

4. It is generally the right thing to do, in the circumstance, to assist the Policyholder client. Believe it or not, some insurers in London are actually sympathetic.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

.... and if you've paid your premiums (£4-6k p.a. for 6-7 years) and the policy says recovery and salvage are covered why not make a claim ?

[Jetblu]

@IRpilot2006

Are you being serious? Not withstanding probably another 100 valid reasons to the 4 primary ones already mentioned above, on humanity grounds alone, should not leave anyone wondering why.



I understand that when next of kins have requested that a sole/s remain with the aircraft, the underwriters/brokers/AAIB etc have respected those wishes.

I cannot believe that there is not more of us jumping up and down over this.
This could apply to anyone one of us, so long as you are all happy that the next desperate plea could be your own wife's/ girlfriends etc.
And for sure, I would be banging the same drum.

[Contacttower]

I see they are nearly at £20K, do hope they make it.

[Jetblu]

More news here.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%20http%3A%2F%2Fn147ka.********.com%20&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.helpfindhim.info%2F&ei=8wYIUtz8A4T_POP0gZgM&usg=AFQjCNGYJ6uk823qhGQ-KwAx5xHE5NAcMA


@GMM


**APPEAL - if those divers are reading this Blog - Please urgently get in touch!

Eventually we heard the news. The AAIB said that they would NOT be recovering the additional sea bed material - for us this was a big blow. However the AAIB were willing to give us the location of the sea bed find, but not the contact details of the divers.**


Just a suggestion, post this information on a diving forum. Diving is like GA in a close knit community. A few members here are keen divers and may be able to steer you in the right direction.

Pace....where are you?

[JDA2012]

Partial wreckage actually found by recreational divers - interesting, and does effectively confirm the depth.

Jetblu - I have posted on the BSAC forum appealing for the divers in question to contact the search operation via the website - not sure anything will come of this or even if they were "our" divers but worth a shot.

BSAC Scuba Diving Forums (http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=50264)

[mad_jock]

As an experienced diver who has done survey work and underwater recover (I used to hold a part 4)

I really really do hope that if you do go down the recreational call to arms you have someone with a clue who is organising and running the whole thing with an iron rod and whip/tazzer.

As much as I can understand your will to do what you perceive to be the right thing what your undertaking is getting pretty high up the risk level for recreation diving. Lets not have another death please.

If this was undertaken as a commercial job all the divers would be on surface demand and there would be a rescue diver suited up. A de-co chamber would be on-site.

The lifting of a 200 plus KG lump of metal which is covered in sharp edges and not designed to be lifted underwater is also not to be taken lightly. Also as well you won't be able to follow the familys wish of leaving your friends body where it rests.

Not to go into details but the AIBB and insurance company's will know exactly what the score is and personally I would suggest you leave well alone if they don't want to recover it.

I must admit this reminds me a lot of the Trident trawler up my way. In the end an oil service company dropped in and recovered the bodies while transiting back to port while blowing the divers back up from 500m. Knowing one of the bosses of said company one of the reasons doing it was A) the divers were good for 70m anyway. B) he didn't want to read in the news papers of someone getting killed trying to recover them on a rebreather.

I will state now if there is a head line of a fat baldy Scottish pilot fatally crashing into the water please please leave me in peace and don't risk anyones life recovering the lumps of meat/bone left. I am more than happy for my remains to be left in Davies locker.

[JDA2012]

mad_jock - Indeed, I am certainly not trying to get rec divers to try and lift anything or indeed to take any action without appropriate oversight, I would just like those who already located the wreckage (not sure if they were actually looking for it at the time) or any locals who may know something to get in touch with the search operation (of which I am not a part, and which as far as I can tell IS using commercial divers) to answer the questions they have, as they have asked on the website.

[Jetblu]

@JDA2012. Nice one. :ok: They have asked for assistance so your help will no doubt be appreciated.

@mad_jock I am probably with you and would personally wish to stay with the aircraft BUT, if my next of kin wanted me back and laid to rest on dry land OR all the authorities carp coming about with me doing a 007, jumping out and believed to be drinking in a bar South America, shaken, not stirred, who are we to disagree with her wishes. She is undoubtedly also wishing to clear his name from all the hype and hysteria. I personally take my hat off to her.

[mad_jock]

Having been in the situation at a wake of a pilot, of being told by a relative that they where having big problems with the undertaker not allowing an open coffin.

I suspect that someone hasn't sat them down and told them what actually occurs in a high energy crash (indicated by the wreck break up) into incompressible water.

And if a relative is reading this sit someone down and ask them directly. I am not saying this with any sort of glee. I just don't want you pushing and hoping for something which is going to cause even more hurt, than knowing the truth.

[cockney steve]

Thanks to Jon Zarno for pointing out the insensitive nature if my post. I have left the last line. :O

Insurance may be the deciding factor.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

My sense is that the AAIB have probably concluded it's a case of pilot disorientation, resulting in a high speed impact, drawing their conclusions from the 15% of the aircraft so far recovered. Hence they aren't taking the search any further. But they haven't entirely washed their hands of it so are in close communication with the family and project organisers.

Yes a professional survey company has been commissioned to "re-find" the remainder of the aircraft that the recreational divers located a week or so ago. And knowing those involved helping the family, the divers will have been well and truly briefed on what might usefully be brought up to the surface, not least the MFD so its flight data can be examined.

But the priority is to find the pilot and, as some have said, it is more about knowing where he is to give his family and friends some closure than necessarily recovering him to the surface, that is for them to decide as and when.

The latest update on the next phase can be found here. Please pledge your support via the link and Pledge button if you're able to help, the project still needs at least another £10k, given the length of survey / recovery required. Here's the Blog ......

Help Find Him (http://www.helpfindhim.info/)

[India Four Two]

My sense is that the AAIB have probably concluded it's a case of pilot disorientation

Having recently flown a Cirrus, I would be very surprised if that was the case. If ever there was an aircraft that was meant to be flown on autopilot, the Cirrus is it. I did an out-and-return from Van Nuys to Avalon (50nm each way) and the only time I touched the stick was on takeoff until 500' and in the circuit for landing, and at 200' off an ILS.

I've contributed to the fund.

[mad_jock]

india you do get an effect that the pilot begins to think that there is something wrong with automatics.

It can be cloud top slant, fog bank on water or a distance effect on the horizon.

When a FO first gets it you have to go through checking the instruments and all the other toys. Some are sure they are in a turn and climbing/descending and would be quite happy to pop the AP out and make it look right. Takes a change in faith and instrument discipline before they become comfortable with seeing the effect and double checking its a visual error.

[John R81]

In single pilot unstablised helicopter "the leans" can be easily induced. No matter what anyone has taught you, it takes significant willpower to stay with the instruments first time it happens.

[India Four Two]

It can be cloud top slant, fog bank on water or a distance effect on the horizon.

mj,

I can see how that would be very insidious. Disconnect the AP, "level" the wings to a false horizon and end up in a spiral dive.

I've only ever had the leans under the hood and as you say, it requires discipline and faith in the instruments.

[India Four Two]

I've contributed to the fund.

GMM,

I spoke to soon. I couldn't find a link to the fund. Can you help?

[Unusual Attitude]

I remember getting the leans for the first time on my CPL course.

In the middle of a climb in IMC the instructor says to me "Have you ever had the leans before?"
I relplied "Funny you should mention that as I'm getting them right now!" "Thought so." he said with a wry smile as he could see me wrestling with my inner ear Vs the instruments, it is indeed very tough to trust the instruements rather than your own senses.

Having been flying with the G1000 quite a bit recently I would be very surprised to hear of a pilot with an IR or IMC losing control given how good the system is for SA. You also have a traditional backup AI, ASI and ALT to cross check against even if your doubting what the glass is telling you.

If I was flying Enroute in the clag with a G1000 I'd be sitting back monitoring the automatics which is where that set up really comes into its own.

As MJ says however, still nothing stopping you punching the automatics out, disbelieving the whole lot and trying to hand fly your senses...... :(

[Fuji Abound]

FWIW it was an Avidyne display.

There are a host of reasons why it could have been CFIT - NOT suggesting it was.

There have been cases of Avidyne's failing and with this system the PFD couldn't be switched to the other screen, the autopilot might have failed or tripped, or the pilot may have chosen to hand fly, to suggest a few.

Without the PFD flying on the standby instruments will always be more challenging, and while the autopilot can be driven form the Garmin's you need to know how to do this.

[Golf-Mike-Mike]

@ India 4-2

The initial fund collection deadline passed a while ago, £20457 was raised and £27k spent on sonar / mapping and the team believes they have the location of all they need to salvage. They are now looking for new funds, eg thru sponsorship, to recover the remains of aircraft and pilot.

Here's a link to the blog so you can get uptodate ... Help Find Him (http://www.helpfindhim.info/)

[mm_flynn]

The accident report is now out on this one.

While the AAIB don't make a specific determination, they do seem to have answered the many questions and theories proposed. All of the evidence points to a common and sadly common killer of GA pilots, possibly induced by over confidence as a result of the real and well sold safety features of the aircraft.

[India Four Two]

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Cirrus%20SR22,%20N147KA%2004-14.pdf

[Blind Squirrel]

Agreed: a sad story. Almost certainly one of those times when an IMC rating would have been a life-saver. Low-time pilot; fast aircraft; scudding along at lowish level over the water on one of those days when the Channel and the sky turn into one large disorienting pool of milky haze...If the autopilot did become disconnected for any reason, it's hard to envisage that scenario resulting in any kind of happy ending.

[Whopity]

From the report:Schedule 7 of CAP 393, ‘Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations ’ further restricts the holder of a Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) (PPL(A)) without any instrument rating to a minimum flight visibility of 3 km outside controlled airspace. No it doesn't! A JAA pilot licence became an EASA licence in Sept 2012 and the 3 Km restriction and all reference to JAA licence privileges were removed from the ANO in 2012 Pleased to see even the AAIB can't keep up with all the changes!

[robin]

I do wonder, sometimes, if some people are buying into aircraft like the Cirrus with all the safety equipment they have on the basis that the aircraft will do it all for them.

How can anyone use it's full capabilities without even an IMCR. The report, if true, shows the pilot had been letting the aircraft fly, without the skills to take over in the event of a problem that required manual handling.

I have concerns that this is not an isolated incident and that some are moving too quickly from club aircraft to high-end types without building experience first.

[Katamarino]

Since gaining a PPL(A), he recorded just over 4 hours of instrument
flying, none of which appeared to have been under instruction.

Hmm...:suspect:

[Fuji Abound]

People can and must fly an RV8 in VMC and can and do fly a Cirrus in VMC - I cant see a great deal of difference.

[Blind Squirrel]

I think the difference is that few (any?) RV-8s come equipped with autopilots, glass cockpits and ballistic parachutes as standard, whereas the Cirrus does. Not many of the former can be flown from Seaford to Le Touquet hands-off in IMC (or conditions that may as well be IMC), whereas the latter will do it without difficulty. It's a lot easier, then, for the low-time, low-experience pilot to get himself into serious trouble in a Cirrus than in an aircraft that requires to be hand-flown all the time. It's also easier for such a pilot to depend on the technology as a crutch, and if it should ever not be available to him -- either because of equipment failure or of inadvertent de-activation -- to find himself in a situation from which there is no escape.

[maxred]

+1 Blind Squirell. There is a debate going on in another thread , regarding the worst chute pull. A lot of guys on there just cannot get the argument. It is all, well why would/should I not pull the chute, missing the point entirely, that the individual should never have got into the situation in the first place.

This really is a growing problem....

[Jonzarno]

When this thread first started, I asked a poster by PM to bear in mind that there is every chance that the family of the pilot involved is reading it. As a result he was kind enough to redact a post that he had made which they might have found distressing.

I'm not trying to defend or justify anything here, nor, please, do I want to start another CAPS / Cirrus argument.

So, with respect, please can I suggest that we have this debate somewhere else?

Thanks!!

[Blind Squirrel]

With equal respect -- and I'm not just saying that; I do recognise the sensitivities involved -- I disagree.

Whenever an aviation accident, and still more so one involving fatalities, occurs, the paramount consideration is that the aviation community learn from and apply whatever lessons can be drawn from it, so that it is not repeated. All other factors are secondary in comparison. That process cannot be short-circuited for any reason, even in deference to the memory of the deceased.

It is important, then, that these matters can receive full scrutiny and discussion. This is the most appropriate venue for that to take place, because this is where pilots congregate.

The AAIB report linked above contains several such lessons. While it is not absolutely conclusive, it is very strongly suggestive. It may not tell us what happened during the last sixty seconds of the flight in question, and we may never know for sure. But it describes a chain of events that made a tragic outcome possible, and perhaps even likely, given all the circumstances. Recognising that chain, and knowing how to break it, may save someone else's life one day. However painful it may be, this is a conversation that it is necessary to have.

[Jonzarno]

However painful it may be, this is a conversation that it is necessary to have.

Equally, I understand your point of view on this and agree we shouldn't have a row about it, especially not here.

It is indeed an important topic, but I just think it should be discussed somewhere that the relatives of the person involved will not be following (unless they specifically want to). Can I suggest that, if you can agree, you start another thread?

Many thanks for your understanding.

[Saab Dastard]

Folks, this is not the thread to have yet another Cirrus hamster-wheel. I've moved all the relevant posts to http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/501879-most-unnecessary-chute-pull-ever-17.html.

SD