ATC Whoops

[sa365]

I was giving an instrument check ride the other night in an SA-365. We were being vectored for an ILS. The controller told us he was going to sequence us in behind another aircraft. He told us to turn to 350 and "hold there." The pilot flying turned to 350 and then asked me what he should do. Just then approach called us and said to "just hold there." I took the radio and asked the controller just what he wanted us to do. I said we had no holding instructions, no holding fix. What did he want us to do. He said "Just hover there." I answered that it was an unacceptable request and I would not comply. He said "You are a helicopter right? Just hover." I informed him that I would not hover at 3,000 ft at 0100. He needed to come up with an alternate plan. He expressed his surprise but then came up with a plan. I have heard of this kind of thing happening but always thought it was just a war story. Never believed it could happen to me.

[chevvron]

Boils down to the fact the controller had no experience of flying helicopters and had no training in how they handle.

[S76Heavy]

Should they even be controlling helicopters if that is the case?
Demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of how helicopters fly and their limitations.

[Grenville Fortescue]

sa365; You become part of the problem if you don't address this.

I'm not saying you should lodge a formal complaint (there was no serious incident - and I deeply dislike "grassers" and "snitches") but you could follow-up with the controller directly and or his supervisor (keeping it within the local ATC team) with a view to helping them understand why simply ceasing all forward motion to comply with a "static" hold is unrealistic.

At the same time you might enquire as to what training is given for ATCO's to help them understand helicopter performance parameters as per S76Heavy's comment.

If it appears that there is a fundamental flaw in the training system, then take it higher.

This is the responsible approach, as opposed to doing nothing and endorsing a situation where another helicopter pilot could potentially encounter something similar (or worse) in the future.

[Flying Bull]

Hi sa 365,
were you GPS-equipped?
Why not just press Waypoint - and fly a holding with that point and heading?
Would be nice to verfy to the controller answering, flying holding at present position and no hassle at all....
Greetings Flying Bull

[chevvron]

As you were being vectored, I presume you were working a Tracon rather than a Rapcon, so it would have been FAA Controllers rather than contracted; any FAA controllers care to comment?

[Flying Bull]

Hi,
found a pprune thread which might be interesting ...
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/447686-uns-1c-ppos-holding.html

and Table 3C-56. Holding Present Position Procedure (http://aviationandaccessories.tpub.com/TM-1-1510-218-10/css/TM-1-1510-218-10_480.htm)

so not uncommon - even so this time the "hover-order" shows, thar there was a misunderstandig

Greetings Flying Bull

[mad_jock]

Sounds like a good one for chirp to be honest.

[ShyTorque]

Sounds like a good one for chirp to be honest.

I agree. ATCOs get no training regarding the capabilities and limitations or peculiarities of helicopters and they should, IMHO.

[mad_jock]

I think the ones in ABZ do :p cause they are bloody good a fitting the whole circus together.

[ShyTorque]

But then they have probably "got accustomed" to helicopters, rather than being given formal training.... ;)

[helihub]

So, kudos to HCGB for their annual NATS event -alternate years they fly Heathrow controllers round the London zone, and the other years the pilots are hosted in the tower and radar room. Each group then understands each other better and everyone's happier, wiser etc

I guess there is scope for this to be repeated in other locations in the UK than London, and in other countries?

[Aesir]

I suggest a reply to the controllers request; "Unable to comply. Minimum IFR speed 75kts".

Then he would be informed.

[212man]

Sounds like a good one for chirp to be honest.

I'm not sure CHIRP covers North Carolina! :ok:

[mad_jock]

didn't see the NC bit.