Mossie : The Plane That Saved Britain

[CoffmanStarter]

Just a heads up for those interested ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/image_zpsc9dcef6a.jpg

Best ...

Coff.

[1.3VStall]

Oh sh1t, I'm abroad at the moment, must e-mail no 1 son and make sure he records it for me.

[Wensleydale]

"The Plane that Saved Britain". Must be a documentary about a woodworkers' tool that was used to build an aircraft.

[air pig]

You really had to 'chisel' that one out.

[NutLoose]

I "saw" that one coming, but I feel you hit the nail on the head.



..

[smujsmith]

Coff,

Thanks for the heads up on that, I've got the box set to record it. I have made a note on File, and as its on Channel 4 I expect to see some Adze :rolleyes:

Smudge :ok:

[OutlawPete]

Seen a trailer for this the other day and also set for record, it looks great. I have to admit I hadn't realised just how important a role the Mossie played.

[air pig]

It was the first and possibly finest multi role combat aircraft (MRCA) fighter both day and night, bomber, reconnaissance, weather, anti shipping, airliner of a sort ended up as a target towing aircraft. In modern parlance the Phantom is the late 20th century near equivalent.

Hated by Herman Goering because the Luftwaffe had nothing to equal it, flown by the RAF and all its attended commonwealth squadron including the RAAF RNZAF RCAF USAAF to name but a few.

If a certain Danish brewer made aircraft they'd probably make Mosquito's.

[Get me some traffic]

Chatting in the bar in the mess at RAF Leuchars in the 1970s (as you do) there was a lively discussion between Ltng, F4, Harr and Bucc crews about the qualities needed for a strike aircraft. One very senior and respected Flt Lt Harr pilot suggested the following: Twin engine, two crew, good load capacity, long range, low radar signature, manoeuverable, relatively cheap to produce, capable of about 500kts, good low level capability, able to absorb punishment. He said gentlemen, I give you the Mosquito with turboprops, modern avionics and systems. Everyone agreed.

[54Phan]

There is one airworthy now, and more will be following. There are a number on static display. A very great aircraft, a major part of 54Phan's unbuilt plastic model collection.

[N2erk]

ref GMST's post- twas the same feeling amongst several AD/GA F4 crew members at Coningsby in the mid 70's- mossie with modern radar, twin turboprops, SPIII and SW- stealthy, fast, inexpensive. Always wanted to make up a model of same.....

[CoffmanStarter]

When I posted this thread ... I just knew Wensleydale was going to respond with his "one liners" :ok:

Note I refrained from saying "cheesy" :}

[Madbob]

I agree that the Mosquito was a great aeroplane and when you think that the B17 for example could only manage a 4000 lb bomb load if going to Berlin.

The Mossie could do the same and have made (with a crew change, and re-arm) two round trips in one night and used less fuel, had better survivability, risked 2 crew (per sortie) instead of 8-10 in a B17.

The only problem was we didn't make enough of them and the policy to build 1,000's of Lancasters, Halifaxes, Stirlings, B17's, B-24's prevailed.

A great aeroplane, versatile in many roles and well-liked by those that flew them and apart from the high V2 and the gap in getting there there was little else to fault.

Just my 2 cents.

MB

[Otto Throttle]

You all forgot to mention that it is an utterly beautiful aeroplane too. Not an angle it doesn't look fabulous from - unless you were a German in the gunsights! ;)

[gr4techie]

Chatting in the bar in the mess at RAF Leuchars in the 1970s (as you do) there was a lively discussion between Ltng, F4, Harr and Bucc crews about the qualities needed for a strike aircraft. One very senior and respected Flt Lt Harr pilot suggested the following: Twin engine, two crew, good load capacity, long range, low radar signature, manoeuverable, relatively cheap to produce, capable of about 500kts, good low level capability, able to absorb punishment. He said gentlemen, I give you the Mosquito with turboprops, modern avionics and systems. Everyone agreed.

Made me think of the Argentine Pucara, ground attack and counter-insergency aircraft.

Interestingly the Pucara did trials powered by Soya beans derived bio-fuel. I could imagine the nav shouting to the pilot "Give it some beans"!

[Heathrow Harry]

for all its many many virtues it certainly never "saved" Britain

That would be the Hurricane & the Spitfire

The war in the air wasn't really decisive once the Germans invaded Russia

[mosquitob4]

At a certain Tonka base in East Anglia in about 1987, we'd recently had our old radar replaced with a brand new on on a nice high tower. One sunny Saturday morning I'm pottering in the garden when I hear the roar of a pair of Merlins and look up just in time to see the BAe Mosquito above me, going like a bat out of hell, on it's way to a display. Commenting on this to an ATC colleague later on, he told me that the radar simply didn't pick it up until it was about a mile away and then lost it after only a few more seconds as it headed away.

[squeaker]

Looks really good, I shall be watching!
From that picture I assume it was at least partly filmed at the DeHavilland Aircraft Museum at Salisbury Hall, near London Colney/ St Albans.
Visited there a couple of weeks ago and can highly recommend it, no ropes so you can get up close to the exhibits and see restoration work too.
Worth dragging the saucepans round now the school holidays are on!
http://www.dehavillandmuseum.co.uk/ (http://http://www.dehavillandmuseum.co.uk/)

[Chugalug2]

HH:
The war in the air wasn't really decisive once the Germans invaded Russia
Bit of a sweeping generalisation there, HH. I would contend that without the war in the air, the German invasion of Russia could well have been decisive in their favour. As it was it was a close enough run thing. Yes the distances and weather worked in Russia's favour, but so did massive western military supplies and reduced German ones culminating in the strategically decisive Battle of Kursk. Quite a lot of that could be put down to the western war in the air, don't you think?

[Wensleydale]

Interestingly the Pucara did trials powered by Soya beans derived bio-fuel. I
could imagine the nav shouting to the pilot "Give it some beans"!


Sounds half baked to me though perhaps it could have been flown by 57 Sqn?

As an afterthought - if you had eaten beans then you could 'av gas?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the B17 for example could only manage a 4000 lb bomb load


True, but bear in mind that the B-17 was meant to be a twin-engined aircraft but Boeing decided to hang four engines on it to give it more range and height. The B-17 was also from a much earlier era which explains why it was so inferior (B-17 first flight mid-1935, Mosquito end of 1940).


I would contend that without the war in the air, the German invasion of Russia could well have been decisive in their favour. As it was it was a close enough run thing. Yes the distances and weather worked in Russia's favour, but so did massive western military supplies and reduced German ones culminating in the strategically decisive Battle of Kursk. Quite a lot of that could be put down to the western war in the air, don't you think?


With respect I disagree - by February 1943 when the last Axis troops at Stalingrad surrendered (marking the end of German advances), and July 1943 when the Germans lost at Kursk (marking the beginning of the Soviet push westwards), the bomber campaign in the west had yet to get into its stride and the number of German aircraft in the west was fairly modest - certainly nowhere near enough to make a difference at Kursk even had the Germans sent all their units east. A cursory glance at a map of Asia shows what a tiny part of the Soviet Union the Germans managed to invest - the furthest they got was approx 1/7 of the landmass and that was just one spearhead in the Caucasus, not a broad and even advance along the whole front. No doubt the supply of western munitions helped, but the basic fact is that Hitler's gamble about the 'whole rotten edifice' was (thankfully) wrong, and the sheer expanses of Russia and the weather alone would have sealed the deal.

[Ken Scott]

I used to know a guy who'd been an apprentice at De Havillands in Hatfield in 1945. On VE Day he was told to go & get some wood for a celebratory bonfire so he took an axe & chopped up a Mosquito......he said that he now weeps every time he thinks about it.

In his defence he said that there were around 40 Mosquitos parked on the airfield & with the ending of the war they were not really going to be needed.

[SOSL]

Wensleydale, the "Cheesy" remark was meant in the best of all possible taste.

About 1978 I bought a river boat from a boatyard in Market Harborough. Chatting to the gaffer he mentioned that he used to own a workshop in the East end of London making Art Deco furniture. Gracefully curving plywood strips using steam and pressure.

I asked him why he stopped and he told me the workshop was requisitioned and he spent the rest of the war making engine cowlings for Mosquitos.

Rgds SOS

[Martin the Martian]

Hindsight is 20-20 vision, but I still find it amazing that de Havilland's had to really fight to get the Mosquito accepted by the Air Ministry. All bombers had to big, made of metal, and have lots of guns, and because the Mosquito wasn't any of those things...

I often wonder how different the bomber offensive may have been had the Air Ministry not been so blinkered, and had decided to order the Mosquito into production much earlier than it had, and possibly instead of so many four-engine bombers.

[Wensleydale]

Wensleydale, the "Cheesy" remark was meant in the best of all possible
taste.



No offence taken, old chap.

[500N]

Martin

"Hindsight is 20-20 vision" and the rest of what you said.

Applies to a lot of things in the war.

[Load Toad]

I think one issue to be considered with regard the bombing force is that the diversity of the attacks on Germany from the west; day, night, heavy bombers, medium, fast, light, tactical, strategic...split the German defences. If 'only' Mosquitoes were the force the Nazi's would have concentrated on weapons to combat that threat.

[500N]

Here is a question I would like to know.

With the Mossie being made of wood, was it visible on radar like
a big metal bomber ?

Or did it just give a much smaller blip ?

[54Phan]

Well put, sir. I hadn't thought of that premise, to my chagrin.

[Heathrow Harry]

re the effect of the war in the air on the Russo-German front it is true that a lot - maybe 200,000 plus, German troops were diverted to AA duties but tehy were mainly the elderly, the very young and the not so fit

What the Germans needed at Kursk was more tanks - production of which wasn't really affected until late 44 early 45

[chevvron]

I had the pleasure of being an ATC cadet at Bovingdon in the mid 60s when they were making 633 Squadron,(not to be confused with the later 'Mosquito Squadron')and was able to closely examine the 12 Mossies they had assembled. One was just a nose section probably for cockpit shots, about 4 or 5 were flyable and the rest were just static. The tragedy was the one they used for the crash sequence. The bullet holes were stuck on plywood but you had to get really close to see this. Next day I wasn't there when John Crewdson opened up the thottles to go across the grass then simply retracted the undercarriage, thereby destroying a valuable aircraft which might have been restorable at least to static condition.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

What the Germans needed at Kursk was more tanks


...and anti-tank aircraft, of which there were none at all on the Kanalfront. There were a few in Sicily which had escaped from the fall of North Africa, but again the Allied bomber offensive can't really be credited with reducing the numbers of these aircraft in time for Kursk.

[500N]

"about 4 or 5 were flyable"

How can we go from 4 or 5 flyable in the 60's
to having to have one rebuilt in NZ ?

What happened to the flyable aircraft ?
(Excluding the last one that crashed)

[chevvron]

Several of them had only just retired from target towing duties at Exeter. One was left behind after filming and flew out in about 1967. They drilled a hole in the tailplane and got several gallons of rainwater out even though it had been hangared. It was in the same hangar as the gliders of 613 VGS Detatched Flight, and we all took the opportunity to climb in and try it for size (bl00dy small hatch and I was only 144lb in those days)

[clicker]

One fact which tells a story is loss rate.

From The Bomber Command War Diaries these are losses as a percentage of sorties.

Lancaster 2.20%
Halifax 2.28%
Wellington 2.92%
Stirling 3.39%
Manchester 5.04%
Hampden 2.56%
Blenheim 3.62%
Mosquito 0.65%

[gr4techie]

Here is a question I would like to know.

With the Mossie being made of wood, was it visible on radar like
a big metal bomber ?

Or did it just give a much smaller blip ?

In this interesting documentary, Northrop-Grumman rebuild a wooden ww2 aircraft and test it.

Greatest Mysteries of WWII: Hitler's Stealth Fighter 720P - YouTube

[Wetstart Dryrun]

No expert, but i think a couple of metal props whirling round would light up your radar tube a treat.

wets

[500N]

I thought Mosquito props were made of wood ?

[NutLoose]

The flier is up for sale having been rebuilt in NZ, but it is doubtful if it could ever fly in the UK as the CAA I believe do not recognise the rebuild as it wasn't done under their supervision, I think that is why it never came here as originally intended when it was going to fly to the USA..

The Ex Spartan one should fly soon in Canada

The one that went to Kermit Weeks from the UK flew a couple of times then was put on display in his museum, never to fly again.

Interesting if you do not know, the actual fuselage is built on concrete formers, the two halves are then fitted out and then the two sides are joined together.

:)

The New Zealand company has more coming too, they had a set of moulds made up so can manufacture fuselages, one of the problems with the old ones was the glues de laminating.

[oncemorealoft]

While it's a interesting discussion, no single aircraft type saved Britain.

What saved us were the people that crewed them: those lucky enough to be assigned to a competent machine like a Mosquito, Spitfire, Lancaster, etc. and those who climbed into Battles, Hampdens, Rocs, Manchesters, Defiants etc. to face god knows what.

Without the people who designed, built, flew, serviced and supported them no 'plane got off the ground. Respect to them all.

[GeeRam]

"about 4 or 5 were flyable"

How can we go from 4 or 5 flyable in the 60's
to having to have one rebuilt in NZ ?

What happened to the flyable aircraft ?
(Excluding the last one that crashed)

At the time of filming there were actually 7 or 8 airworthy after the ending of ops by No3 CAACU at Exeter, incl. RR299 operated by DH/BAC as was then.

Five were flown in the film, plus a 6th airworthy one was in attendance at Bovingdon during filming which was used for crew training, this was T3, TV959.
The five actually used for flying sequences were,

B.35’s RS709, RS712, TA639 & TA719 plus T.3 TW117.

RS709 stayed airworthy with the Skyframe collection after filming and was used 5 years later for filming Mosquito Sqn. It was sold after that to an American owner in the early 70’s and was flown across the Atlantic where it spend most of the 70’s under several different owners. It was bought by a UK owner and was flown back across the Atlantic in 1979. It was restored over a number of years before being sold again, and eventually acquired by the USAF Museum, and flown back across the Atlantic again in 1984 to Dayton where it was permantley grounded and put on display in the museum painted to represent a PRXVI flown by the USAAC.

RS712 also stayed airworthy after filming ended, and was acquired by the films advisor Hamish Mahaddie. It was also used for filming Mosquito Sqn, and eventually ended up with the Strathallen Collection in Scotland and flown occasionally through the 70’s. It was bought by US collector Kermit Weeks for £100,000 when the Stathallen Collection folded in the mid 80’s and was flown across the Atlantic by the same crew that flew RS709 across a year or two before. It stayed airworthy for a few years, and last flew in 1992 IIRC. It’s be displayed in the EAA museum ever since. Kermit does have plans to restore it back to airworthy at some point, but given the amount of projects he has I won’t hold my breath on that ever happening.

TA639 was loaned by the RAF for filming, and returned RAF storage after filming, the flight from Bovingdon to RAF Henlow probably being it’s last flight. It was allocated to the RAF Museum and has been on display at Cosford since 1970.

TA719 was also bought by Skyframe and loaned out for the filming. It returned to the Skframe collection afterwards, but was badly damaged in crash landing a year later at Staverton. It was used for ground scenes in Mosquito Sqn in 1968 before eventually ending up at the IWM Duxford in the late 70’s where it is still on display.

TW117 was loaned to the filming from the RAF and returned to RAF Museum storage at Henlow afterwards. IIRC, this a/c was flown to Abingdon for the big 50th RAF show in 1968, and it’s last flight was it’s return to Henlow where it was allocated for displaying in the new RAF Museum at Hendon, where it stayed on display for 20 years until being sold as part of a deal so the RAFM could acquire other artefacts. It’s owners then permantley loaded the a/c to the RNAF at Bodo in Norway in 1992.

TV959 flew straight from filming to have it's wing sawn off and the aircraft was hung in the IWM Lambeth where it remained for the next 25 years until being sold to the Duxford based Fighter Collection, where it remained stored for a number of years until being recently sold to Paul Allens Seattle based FHC, and it is now being restored to airworthy condition by the same team in NZ that rebuilt KA114.


As an aside, the pilot that flew both RS709 and again, RS712 across the Atlantic in the mid 1980's was noted ex-DH TP, and hugely experienced Mosquito pilot George Aird, who famously is seen here ejecting from a trials Lightning in the early 1960's

http://www.rafjever.org/pictures-118/118sqnpic205.jpg

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

While it's a interesting discussion, no single aircraft type saved
Britain.

What saved us were the people that crewed them: those lucky
enough to be assigned to a competent machine like a Mosquito, Spitfire,
Lancaster, etc. and those who climbed into Battles, Hampdens, Rocs, Manchesters,
Defiants etc. to face god knows what.

Without the people who designed,
built, flew, serviced and supported them no 'plane got off the ground. Respect
to them all.


Hear hear. Not that these wise words will make much difference to the programme makers keen to give their piece a title with impact. 'Mossie: the aeroplane which was the wartime British bomber with the lowest attrition rate and which was so much better than the B-17' doesn't have the same ring to it...

[500N]

GeeRam

Thank you for taking the time to type that up.
Much appreciated.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

According to these chaps; Conquest Of The Air Over Europe!!! The Plane That Won The War: P-51 Mustang!!! - YouTube , the NA Mustang won the war.

The Mosquito was, indeed, a brilliant aeroplane. One of its selling points, though, was its use of material and labour not engaged on other essential war work. It also needed shiploads of balsa wood to form the core of the plywood sandwich; all of which needed to run the U-Boat gauntlet from South America. To increase the Mosquito population would probably have meant training more skilled cabinet makers and taking the gamble to move wood at the expense of metal.

[gr4techie]

GeeRam,

If that photo is real. It's the best aviation photo I've ever seen (as long as the pilot and farmer were okay).

What timing and getting it all in the frame, the tractor driver in the foreground is a nice touch. Probably the one photo of a lifetime for a professional photographer.

I feel sorry for the farmer who was up at the crack of dawn and spent all day working hard plowing his field, only for Biggles to put a big crater right in the middle of it all.

[reynoldsno1]

"The story behind a famous photograph of an ejection from a Lightning. - The photograph opposite was taken by Jim Meads on 13 September 1962. It was published in newspapers all around the world at the time and, as it was so widely seen, it naturally caught the attention of manufacturer Martin-Baker.

At the time Jim lived next door to de Havilland test pilot Bob Sowray in Hatfield, Hertfordshire, and on this day both of their wives had gone clothes shopping in London. Bob had mentioned that he was due to fly a Lightning that day, and later Jim’s children asked if they could go to watch the flight. Although Jim was a photographer, he wouldn’t usually take his camera on an outing like this. However, on this occasion he decided he would get a picture of his neighbour flying. The camera he took had just two exposures on it.

The spectators found a good vantage point close to the threshold of de Havilland’s Hatfield airfield, and waited for the Lightning to return. As XG332 came in on final approach, at around 200ft high its nose pitched up and the pilot ejected. The Lightning had become uncontrollable after an engine fire had weakened a tailplane actuator.

Jim took one photo soon after the ejection, and as can be seen caught the pilot inverted with his parachute still unopened and the Lightning plummeting earthwards close to him. The tractor driver heard the bang of the ejection seat and is seen after quickly turning around to look at what was going on, no doubt very relieved he wasn’t working further over in the field. Jim’s one remaining picture recorded the subsequent plume of thick black smoke after the jet had crashed.

Fortunately the pilot survived after coming down in a greenhouse full of tomatoes. He suffered multiple breaks of his limbs and cuts from the shower of glass that rained down on him after going through the roof of the greenhouse. However, it hadn’t been Bob Sowray at the controls; he had decided to let fellow test pilot George Aird carry out the flight.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Serious if not bone question but why/how would a de Havilland TP (HSA) fly an English Electric (BAC) machine?

Weapon integration?

[GeeRam]

Serious if not bone question but why/how would a de Havilland TP (HSA) fly an English Electric (BAC) machine?

Weapon integration?

Yes, weapon trialling/testing of the DH Firestreak missles that were fitted to the Lightning.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Reynolds and GeeRam,

Great posts, many thanks!

As for


the NA Mustang won the war


...this is more accurate than the hyperbole about the Mosquito (excellent though the latter was). The P-51 did reverse the fortunes of the 8th AF's campaign - as soon as it commenced operations as an escort fighter, the unsustainable loss rates of, for example, the Schweinfurt raids began to fall markedly, and the ability of the Americans to bomb targets across Europe at will was no longer in doubt (admittedly there were still heavy losses on occasion - usually when the bombers found themselves without their escort).

[B Fraser]

While it's a interesting discussion, no single aircraft type saved Britain.

I would argue that one did. The Fairey Swordfish attack on the Italian fleet at Taranto was noted by the Japanese. Having seen the success that could be achieved by aircraft carriers attacking a naval fleet at anchor, they repeated it at Pearl Harbor. When news of their attack reached Churchill, he wrote in his diary ...."I knew the United States was in the War now up to the neck, so we had won after all."

It's an interesting thought.

[gr4techie]

Thanks Reynoldsno1 for going to all the trouble of writing out the info about the photograph. It's interesting reading the story behind it all. How lucky the photographer only had two exposures left on the camera film and he did not use them up before the crash.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

It's an interesting thought


...but one which holds as much water as the American carriers did after Pearl Harbour!

For a start, it takes more than a year (ie Nov 40 to Dec 41) to build aircraft carriers and decent aircraft to go on them, and turn those components into a strike capability (HMG please take note;)). So while the Japs were no doubt impressed by Taranto, it only served to re-assure them that their existing development of carrier strike would be worthwhile.

Besides, although noone knew it at the time of Pearl Harbour, the Germans had already lost the war by that stage (in fact, as soon as they launched Barbarossa). While the American contribution certainly hastened the end of the war in Europe, the outcome was inevitable so Pearl Harbour made no real difference. And by the time of Pearl Harbour (in fact, by the time of Taranto), there was no credible threat (of invasion) to Britain hence no need to 'save' Britain.

If any aircraft saved Britain, it would be either the Battle of Britain fighters or the Coastal Command types which defeated the U-Boats.

[Heathrow Harry]

agreed.......

and although the pilots ground crew etc etc made a vast contribution if they'd all been flying Tomahawks, Blenheims & Defiants etc it wouldn't have made any difference as to how brave & skilled they were

[B Fraser]

It's one thing to have a carrier force and quite another to use it effectively. The Swordfish demonstrated that it could be used with devastating effect when combined with surprise. Up to that point, it had never been done on such a scale.

Whether Pearl Harbour was the key turning point or not, I guess Churchill was more qualified than most to make that judgement. Anyway, it's a purely academic point. Thankfully Barbarossa was a tactical blunder which failed through a number of miscalculations, the weather etc. etc. The original question was about a particular aircraft having made the greatest contribution. Which aircraft brought back the captured enigma machine and code books ? Does anyone know ?

[Fareastdriver]

What the Japanese should have done was to ignore the United States completely. They had USA sanctions against them but their best course of action would have been to cement the Axis Pact and invade Russia.

Their troops in Manchuria would have driven northwards and cut the Trans Siberia Railway. This would have isolated the Russian Far East Army which was pivotal in halting the German advance in the west. In fact they were kept in the Far East until Pearl Harbour for this very reason. They could then put the Sino Japanese war on hold, if not by truce but by inactivity. Chiang Kai Shek would immediately, knowing that the Communists would be having supply problems from the Soviet Union, go at Mao’s throat and clear up his own problem.

The Wehrmacht, unhampered by the Far East Army would have continued their advance east of Moscow leaving Leningrad and Stalingrad withering on the vine.
The United States would have no reason to join in the war. In fact the Japanese actions against Russia would be admired by many Republicans. The problems for Roosevelt would come later.

The Japanese, now being fully paid up members of the Axis would now be at war with the UK. Using Germany’s right of conquest over France and Holland they would occupy Indo China and Sumatra. These would be used as a base to overrun Singapore and the Solomon Islands which would ring fence Australia and New Zealand making their troops unavailable to the UK.

The Germans, meanwhile would have advanced into Southern Asia and may have been in a position to advance down the eastern side of the Persian Gulf thereby putting them in a position to isolate India and Ceylon.

Luckily for us the Japanese went for Pearl Harbour.

[Basil]

Fareastdriver, Very interesting and concise. Thank you.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

...except that the Germans would still have come unstuck in the 8 (or is it 9?) time zones east of Moscow, Russian Far East Army or not! And that's ignoring the worsening (for them) situation in North Africa. And the Japs could hardly ignore the USA because of the Philippines.


The Japanese, now being fully paid up members of the Axis would now be at war with the UK. Using Germany’s right of conquest over France and Holland they would occupy Indo China and Sumatra. These would be used as a base to overrun Singapore and the Solomon Islands which would ring fence Australia and New Zealand making their troops unavailable to the UK.


They did most of this and tried the rest. Losing at Coral Sea certainly hindered their plans in the Solomons, but had the Americans not offered battle (because they weren't in the war) it is far from certain that the Japs could have besieged Australia and NZ effectively.

What is lucky is that Hitler was so deluded as to declare war on the USA - without that, Roosevelt might have concentrated his attention on the Pacific and we would all be speaking Russian!


Whether Pearl Harbour was the key turning point or not, I guess Churchill was more qualified than most to make that judgement


His views at the time make perfect sense but he lacked the benefit of hindsight! Of course he was massively relieved to have the Americans dragged into the war, but he couldn't possibly have guessed how badly the German gamble in Russia was already backfiring.


Barbarossa was a tactical blunder


Or Strategic? Or Grand Strategic?

[500N]

" it is far from certain that the Japs could have besieged Australia and NZ effectively."

I think they could have done Aus, not sure on NZ but why would you bother ?

The Japs would have needed their supply lines to catch up
and of course kick Australia out of the Islands to the north.

[chevvron]

Don't forget the P51 was designed to a British specification and became successful only when fitted with a British designed engine.

Why has no one mentioned the Beaufighter. That was multi role almost as much as the Mosquito (as far as I know it was never an airliner!)

[Milo Minderbinder]

For interest, theres a workshop / warehouse within the complex of what used to the Gillow furniture works in Lancaster which was constructed using Mosquito wing spars as the roof timbers
They're still there. Not sure if they could be used though....I've not seen them myself but a friend has.
Gillows made Mozzie parts during WWII.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Luckily for us the Japanese went for Pearl Harbour.

Which being entirely inspired by Taranto puts the dear old Stringbag right back in the frame...

But in reality, the plane that won the war? For me it's the C47.

[OutlawPete]

What the Japanese should have done was to ignore the United States completely. They had USA sanctions against them but their best course of action would have been to cement the Axis Pact and invade Russia.

Their troops in Manchuria would have driven northwards and cut the Trans Siberia Railway. This would have isolated the Russian Far East Army which was pivotal in halting the German advance in the west. In fact they were kept in the Far East until Pearl Harbour for this very reason. They could then put the Sino Japanese war on hold, if not by truce but by inactivity. Chiang Kai Shek would immediately, knowing that the Communists would be having supply problems from the Soviet Union, go at Mao’s throat and clear up his own problem.

The Wehrmacht, unhampered by the Far East Army would have continued their advance east of Moscow leaving Leningrad and Stalingrad withering on the vine.
The United States would have no reason to join in the war. In fact the Japanese actions against Russia would be admired by many Republicans. The problems for Roosevelt would come later.

The Japanese, now being fully paid up members of the Axis would now be at war with the UK. Using Germany’s right of conquest over France and Holland they would occupy Indo China and Sumatra. These would be used as a base to overrun Singapore and the Solomon Islands which would ring fence Australia and New Zealand making their troops unavailable to the UK.

The Germans, meanwhile would have advanced into Southern Asia and may have been in a position to advance down the eastern side of the Persian Gulf thereby putting them in a position to isolate India and Ceylon.

Luckily for us the Japanese went for Pearl Harbour.

One of the most interesting and indeed thought provoking posts I've read on here. :)

[brokenlink]

Chevron, re the 633 piece, the crash a/c was fitted with extra air bottles to whip the u/c up quicker. Fitted by dear old Cobby Moore, the gentleman who gave me my first flight in a Prentice at the tender age of 11 39 years ago from Biggin.

[CoffmanStarter]

Just thinking ... If we have this much discussion prior to the programme we better get a few more servers hooked up for the post programme dialogue :ok:

All good :ok:

Coff.

[Basil]

Fareastdriver,
Passed your comments to colleague who pointed out:
"The Japanese did attack the Russians and were catastrophically beaten at the battle of Kalkhin Gol in 1939. They then turned their attention eastwards."

Reminds me of an amusing nautical poem about the ubiquity of Scottish marine engineers containing the lines:

Old Ivan McIvanovitch,with knitted brow of care, . .
. . .The weirdest Russian in the fleet, who's words are strange to hear

And on another battleship, that sailed out from Japan,
. . . With flaming hair and eyes like steel, and he is six foot three-
His name is Jock McNogo, and a fearsome Jap is he.

[goudie]

In keeping with the method of the Mossie construction, I assume we'll all be glued to the box

[B Fraser]

Congrats all, we're having some debate and banter without anyone getting their knickers in a knot. An all too rare occurrence these days. :ok:

I think it's time to play another wildcard so I'll mention the B24 Liberator. It's role was to close the Atlantic air cover gap which made a huge difference to the inflow of raw materials which kept us going.

And then there's the PR types of Spitfire such as the 19 etc. so we could confirm where the Jerries really were ahead of D-Day :E

[JEM60]

Bit belated from me, Chevron, but I remember the filming too. I was helping a friend set up a farm at Little Missenden, and frequently saw a formation of 4, being filmed by a B.25 Mitchell. Ah, nostalgia, eh.!

[OutlawPete]

Just thinking ... If we have this much discussion prior to the programme we better get a few more servers hooked up for the post programme dialogue :ok:

All good :ok:

Coff.

I'm a believer that every day is a school day Coff. And I think you're correct, it will raise many interesting questions.

I still think it was the Spit that saved Britain but I look forward to this documentary with an open mind.

[NutLoose]

To be honest the Spitfire and Hurricane won the war, because if they had failed in the BOB the rest would or could never have taken place, as the UK would have been in German hands, and nowhere would have existed to invade Europe from.

[dat581]

The UK would not have been in German hands if the RAF had lost the BOB. The Germans would never have got past the Royal Navy and they new that. The Luftwaffe at the time didn't have effective weapons for dealing with moving warships. Any German invasion fleet would have died in the channel.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Fitted by dear old Cobby Moore, the gentleman who gave me my first flight in a Prentice at the tender age of 11 39 years ago from Biggin.

He is to the best of my knowledge still hard at work at Biggin Hill.

I suspect the Prentice is alive and kicking too.

I remember him, and his red headed wife Susan.

Living in a shipping BOX behind the hanger at Biggin.......and then upgraded to a Range Rover.

A classic gentleman if ever there was a face of Biggin after Jock, it has to beCoby.

Now his would be a good story.... glf

[Heathrow Harry]

"The Germans would never have got past the Royal Navy"

Ahh yes - the same Royal Navy that was unable to stop the invasion of Norway, Crete, Java & Malaya due to lack of air cover

Any WW2 naval ship was sitting duck without air cover

[longer ron]

We were relatively safe from invasion... we didn't have any oilfields !!:)

Oh and the germans didn't have any specialist landing craft anyway :)

[500N]

Landing craft ?

We had enough ports they would have sailed into :O

[Unixman]

Not in 1940. At that time the Luftwaffe had very poor anti-ship training - as the lack of success at Dunkirk demonstrated. (Later, of course, the Germans performed well with the VIII Fliegerkorps being especially successful around Crete.) Additionally, given the confined waters of the Channel, the ludicrous plans that the Germans had for the landings - they were to tow Rhine barges across which had such a low free board that a destroyer would have been able to sink the thing with its wash without firing a shot, together with the fact that at night the RN would have been able to operate at leisure - the KM at that point due to the losses in Norway had damn all surface ships with which to interdict the RN.

Anyway it's all academic. The RN would have defeated Sea Lion; the RAF stopped from from even trying.

[Evalu8ter]

'The RN would have defeated Sea Lion; the RAF stopped from from even trying'

An interesting point. Given the interwar focus on 'bull' and the whitewashing of inadequacy after Jutland, the RN may have struggled. Rate of fire (which was measurable and enabled Captains/gunnery officers to progress through the ranks...) was placed higher than accuracy - a weakness cruelly exposed by the Bismarck and Prince Eugen in 1941. Additionally, who's to say that a refreshed, victorious, Luftwaffe would not have done significant damage to any RN sortie into the channel? Perhaps Repulse and PoW would be sitting on the floor of the Channel instead of off the coast of Malaya?

One thing is for certain, without air cover and with a U-Boat / E-Boat screen the RN would have taken heavy losses attempting to repel a German assault - at what stage would it have been a strategic decision to preserve the remnants of the fleet to continue the fight from the Dominions? The proposed landing beaches near Brighton would have been used to land an initial wave (though challenging due to a lack of specialist craft) and the plan would have been to capture Shoreham/Newhaven as soon as possible.

Back on Thread. The Spitfire/Hurricane et al combo saved us from finding out if the RN could have closed the Channel; for the rest of the war I pick the T6 for being the machine which prepared the crews for frontline types and the C47; much like the CH47 today, an unglamourous but vital aircraft. In all Theatres in several roles the C47 delivered.

But the Mosquito is beautiful....and looks do go a long way!!!

[Heathrow Harry]

"At that time the Luftwaffe had very poor anti-ship training"

Norway 1940...... In addition to the other losses, the cruiser Effingham was wrecked and the anti-aircraft cruiser Curlew bombed and sunk near Narvik, while a French cruiser was seriously damaged. A total of seven British destroyers was lost, plus one French and one Polish.

We were bloody lucky they weren't properly trained then.... ;);)

[Unixman]

U-Boats in the confined, shallow waters of the Channel would have found operating a nightmare - if not suicidal; the RN would have probably left the heavy ships in Scapa anyway, relying on the light forces based around the east & south coasts. Harwich, for example, in the summer of 1940 was home to a destroyer flotilla as well as light forces (it was the largest light forces base) who would have been on the scene within a few hours. What I am not saying is that it would have been easy for the RN - it wouldn't but given the circumstances I suspect that Sea Lion would have been a catastrophic defeat for the German.

[goudie]

At the Underground Propaganda Committee meeting on Friday, 27 September 1940 probably the most famous and wide reaching rumour of the war was submitted. The essence of the rumour was that Britain had a secret weapon which could set the sea on fire, engulfing enemy invading barges on their cross Channel trip. The text of the actual rumour is more explicit:
The British have a new weapon. It is a mine to be dropped from aircraft. In distinction from other mines, however, it does not explode, but spreads a very thin film of highly inflammable and volatile liquid over the surface of the water for an enormous area. The mine's further action then ignites this liquid provoking a terrible flame.

The rumour network also played a part in deterring a German invasion
The above extract from the book 'Whispers of War'
[/URL]
(http://www.psywar.org/sibs.php#footnote-7050-6)

(http://www.psywar.org/sibs.php#footnote-7050-6)
[URL="http://www.psywar.org/sibs.php#footnote-7050-6"]

[Evalu8ter]

Unixman,
I dare say Donitz's U-Boat screen would not have been in the Channel; more like the North Sea and SW approaches to deter/prevent capital ships entering the Channel - the E-Boats would be a second screen for 'leakers'. Good point re Destroyers and light cruisers - I wonder if the Kriegsmarine would have committed any capital ships into the shallow/restricted waters? Perhaps Panzerschiffs on the flanks?

Maybe the biggest question mark is if there was ever a serious intent to invade. To strip the UK of her aircover and pulverise by bombing seems the preferred route, with the threat of invasion as a 'nudge'. It must be remembered that significant elements of the UK Establishment were keen on a 'deal' to preserve their status and the Empire.

[Unixman]

I agree with your last point. In many respects Churchill's most important victory was not against Hitler, but against Halifax who wanted to come to terms with the Germans. Halifax was no collaborationist but an old fashioned patriot who wanted to save as much of "olde England" as he could. Churchill's triumph in forcing the war cabinet to continue fightingthe war til the bitter end was one of the turning points of the war.

(See Five Days In London, May 1940 by John Lukas for a riveting description of the political battles that occurred then)

[gr4techie]

I reckon it was the Soviet infantry soldier in the eastern front that won the war. We in the west were a mere distraction.

[CoffmanStarter]

I thought the programme was rather good ... clearly the young man presenting was a bit overwhelmed at the end during his trip ... he certainly wasn't doing a "loop".

Anyone got any gen on the possibility of a Mossie flying here in the UK ?

[NutLoose]

I am lead to believe the plan was it was originally going to be delivered via Flying Legends but wasn't allowed in UK Airspace as it hadn't been rebuilt to an acceptable standard here... iE no CAA input..

Several others are undergoing rebuild, including in Canada.
Jerry Yeagen the owner of the one in the film put a lot of his collection up for sale recently citing he could no longer afford to do it anymore.. The B-17 and FW190 have already gone, the rest of the fliers were slated for sale too
See

Jerry Yagen Military Aviation Museum Collection for Sale (http://www.warbirdsnews.com/warbird-news/breaking-jerry-yagen-military-aviation-museum-collection-sale.html)

Va. Beach museum owner selling plane collection | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com (http://hamptonroads.com/2013/06/va-beach-museum-owner-selling-plane-collection)


The BAe one where the engine quit was down to a faulty assembled unit if I remember correctly, not negative G as the cause..

[GeeRam]

Anyone got any gen on the possibility of a Mossie flying here in the UK ?

I'd say slim to none, given what those that actually know an awful lot about it say.

It cost Yagen in excess if US$7m to put KA114 back in the air, and he didn't need to do it with any CAA certification considerations.

So, if anyone has at least £10m in cash laying around, plus access to an identity and many of the metal components parts that Yagen had so much trouble searching out for KA114, then it's possible.....I wouldn't hold my breath though.

My gut feeling is, a UK airworthy Mossie ended with RR299's demise.

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Nutty :ok:

Would be really great to see one flying on the UK circuit ... something useful the National Lottery should fund ... either that or it's another PPRuNe whip round :)

[NutLoose]

Further to that

1st Confirmed Warbird Sales From Jerry Yagen Military Aviation Museum (http://www.warbirdsnews.com/warbird-news/first-confirmed-warbird-sales-jerry-yagen-military-aviation-museum.html)

I did think the young lad narrating was very good, and passionate.

[Peter G-W]

The engines on the Mosquito featured only seem to have 5 exhaust stubs per bank. Anybody know why this is? Or am I very much mistaken?

[longer ron]

The engines on the Mosquito featured only seem to have 5 exhaust stubs per bank. Anybody know why this is? Or am I very much mistaken?


Peter I think that the rear 2 exhausts are 'siamesed' so as not to scorch the plywood !
rgds LR

[NutLoose]

AAIB report into the loss of the BAe Mossie

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_501355.pdf

[green granite]

The BAe one where the engine quit was down to a faulty assembled unit if I remember correctly, not negative G as the cause..

From the AAIB report:



Summary and discussion
The investigation established that the accident resulted from a loss of control of the aircraft associated with a temporary loss of power from the left engine. The nature of the accident site, plus the high degree of fragmentation of the wreckage meant that some potentially useful items, such as the fuel filters and the left engine propeller control unit, were not recovered. Thus,although the possibility of fuel line or fuel filter blockage could not be ruled out, such an event would more probably manifest itself at higher fuel flows, such as during take off or climb to altitude. A PCU
malfunction may have caused the observed RPM excursion of the left-hand propeller close to the apex of the final wing over, but it is unlikely this would have resulted in an immediate power reduction to the observed extent indicated by the left yaw.

[RedhillPhil]

The engines on the Mosquito featured only seem to have 5 exhaust stubs per bank. Anybody know why this is? Or am I very much mistaken?

Having myself asked this question I can give you the reason.
The rear two exhausts were channelled into one because of space considerations in the wing mount. The later versions with the twin turbo-supercharges as used in - for example - the PR XIX had lengthened nacelles and so had space for the full six exhaust stubs.
Unfortunately I missed the programme as I was wending my way home from Fairford with number one son.

[Peter G-W]

Ron, Phil

Thanks for the info.

Peter

[Dengue_Dude]

Wasn't that the aircraft that was rebuilt in NZ?

Would've been nice if he mentioned that. I can quite understand why he choked up in the aircraft, good luck to him. Well done the guys that got him airborne, bet they wouldn't have done that in UK - too many JobsWorths.

Either way, what a beautiful aeroplane. I remember seeing them still flying when I was a kid, so it's nice to see (and hear) them again.

[500N]

The actual RR299 accident is on Youtube from start to near the finish with very clear footage and good engine noise.

[GeeRam]

Thanks NutLoose - sad news. Any idea who was the PIC?

Kevin Moorhouse.

Other crew member lost with RR299 was Steve Watson.

[spekesoftly]

Unfortunately I missed the programme ...........

You might like to watch the repeat on Monday 22 July 2013 at 20:00 BST on 4seven.

(Freeview Ch47; Freesat Ch127; Sky Ch140; Virgin Ch195)

[XV490]

Having watched the programme last night, I can't see it doing much to swell the coffers at the Mosquito/DH museum next to Salisbury Hall (off the M25), whose collection the presenter seemed (to me) to suggest was rotting away.
I went there a couple of years back and thought it was splendid - well worth a visit, not just for its Mosquitos but all the other DH exhibits.

[AR1]

Enjoyed it, but felt the addition of the crash sequence was unecessary. The display ac was flying a manouvre which was never going to be attempted on a first flight. It's inclusion was simply to add unneeded drama to a clearly emotional first flight. Other than that- good show!

[skydiver69]

These guys seem to be aware that someone in the UK has plans to buy the next airworthy AvSpecs Mosquito. Flying with a Mosquito-in Britain! (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?120226-Flying-with-a-Mosquito-in-Britain)! NZs other (to be) flying Mosquitos - Warbirdz Forum (http://www.warbirdz.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1692) http://goactionstations.co.uk/uploads/pdf/scramble_master_newsletter_october_2012.pdf

[GeeRam]

skydiver69

These guys seem to be aware that someone in the UK has plans to buy the next airworthy AvSpecs Mosquito.

Except that thread was about a fancyful notion of buying Glyn Powells own T.43 project, which has noting to do with AVSpecs or their next next Mosquito project, which is in fact the ex-IWM T.3 that belongs to Paul Allen's FHC organisation.
Also, as mentioned, Glyn's project would like KA114, be very unlikely to get a CAA Permit due to Glyn using a modern glue and these a/c being essentially new-build not restorations.

In fact Duxfords TFC had that T.3 up for sale for quite a while BEFORE being bought by Paul Allen, and there was zero interest from anyone in the UK, and that was the single best candidate for getting a UK operated Mossie back in the sky, as it was almost 100% complete.
That chance has gone.

[snapper1]

Good programme, but a pity those brilliant Kiwis at AvSpecs were not given more credit for their work.

[Chugalug2]

Agreed, good programme but can't for the life of me see how it justified the title. I know, I know, it doesn't have to, simply necessary media hype, etc. But is it really necessary? I suspect that any statement such as "The Plane that Saved Britain" is seen through at once by a prospective audience as mere hype and if anything deters rather than attracts.
I found the tantalisingly brief scenes of the construction techniques the most interesting. Was one of the "chippies" using a plane or merely a sanding block? Nice shot too of the entrance hatchway being cut out with a saw. Simples!

[tramps]

Wow, what an excellent programme. I was astounded to hear that the crews trained to fly LL at 50-100ft and at speeds in excess of 400kts; they were absolutely magnificent! My hat doffed and a bow to their dedication and bravery. D:D:D
The documentary should be shown in our schools, as a lesson in history.

[Onceapilot]

Quote RedhillPhill, "The later versions with the twin turbo-supercharges .."
All service Merlins had a mechanicaly driven centrifugal supercharger. Some were multi-speed and could also be two-stage with intercooling.:ok:

OAP

[RedhillPhil]

Quote RedhillPhill, "The later versions with the twin turbo-supercharges .."
All service Merlins had a mechanicaly driven centrifugal supercharger. Some were multi-speed and could also be two-stage with intercooling.:ok:

OAP

Apologies. I realised later that I should have typed two stage rather than twin although I didn't realise that the 'charger was mechanically driven rather than exhaust driven. Oops!

[Fareastdriver]

I cannot understand how it was landed on a carrier at 84 m.p.h. when the stalling speed was 110 m.p.h..

[NutLoose]

Carrier fwd speed into wind deducted from aircraft speed, equals speed over the deck?

For MiloMindbender

Mossie Spars used as roof joists, picture

W&G Loading Bay cover 2009 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/78757504@N07/7226989840/)


..

[Tashengurt]

Interesting programme but why does every documentary these days have to include some sort of 'personal journey' for the presenter?


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[cuefaye]

Fareast --

Wind over deck

[Flying Lawyer]

Flat Spin I have been through the thread and didnt see mention of the aircraft that was kept by British Aerospace at Broughton in the 80s and early 90s. I think Tony Craig used to fly it.

Which machine was that and what happened to it?

It crashed at Barton in 1996. See AAIB report already linked.

Yes, Tony Craig was one of the pilots who used to fly it. I had the privilege of flying with him during a display - in the good old days before such things were prohibited.

Interesting programme, except for (as AR1 says) the predictable but unnecessary footage of the crash and (as Tashengurt says) the time wasted on the tedious personal 'journey' of the presenter.


FL

[GeeRam]

Yes, Tony Craig was one of the pilots who used to fly it. I had the privilege of flying with him during a display - in the good old days before such things were prohibited.

:cool:

Tony was ex-23 Sqn Lightnings IIRC.

[DX Wombat]

Possibly the same programme on Ch47 at 20.00hrs this evening for those who may be interested.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Nutloose
Yes - thats the old Gillow building I was thinking of. Better photo than the one I've seen (W&G in the photo description = Waring & Gillow, a later furniture shop on the same site)

[NutLoose]

Sorry for getting your name wrong :O

[Milo Minderbinder]

don't worry - it sounds better. Maybe I should change it.....?

[Willard Whyte]

Interesting programme but why does every documentary these days have to include some sort of 'personal journey' for the presenter?

Also noted; whilst surely Arthur has had much to overcome these past few years it did rather threaten to take over as the central tenet of the program.

[Hueymeister]

Just watched it on 4OD. I'd disagree with Willard, I found the references to his disability pitched at the right level. To please all of us 'purists' would have needed a 3hr+ slot!

Good show..enjoyed it.:D

[Lyneham Lad]

An excellent programme. One new piece of information for me (and has not yet been mentioned in the thread) was the fitment and use of the 57mm cannon. The comparison of shell size between the 57mm and 27mm(?) shells was quite illustrative of the sheer 'punch' of the bigger shell. As to the recoil... (although there was mention that the steel(?) frame holding the cannon did not suffer cracking etc).

[Load Toad]

Molins gun / Tse Tse - lots of information if you search Google & also vids on You Tube.

[TURIN]

I have to disagree with some of the naysayers here.

The presenters personal point of view was the glue (no pun intended) that held the whole piece together.

An ex Royal Marine, crippled in a car crash gets to not only learn to fly but fly (hands on) in a DH Mosquito fulfilling a childhood dream.

It inspired me.

The crash footage was dramatic, and to any layperson, new information. Any story such as this needs to see warts n all.

The only bit I was dissapointed with was the actual rebuild, which was glossed over. I suspect another documentary will be on its way soon telling the full story from first flight, retirement, rebuild back to first flight again.

Compared to the garbage on the other channel the other night, I Survived a Plane Crash. :yuk: This Mossie story was a breath of fresh air, kudos to the producers etc. :ok:

[skua]

I liked it too. Arthur comes over as a lovely bloke, with a real passion for the subject, and is a natural presenter. His military background, even if the wrong colour, is a plus. It will, I hope, have extended the appeal of warbirds, and knowledge of WW2, to younger audiences.

[Exnomad]

As with all wooden aircraft, then end comes when the woodworm stop holding hands.
That was the cause of th demise of pre-war light aircraft.
I would have hated to in one when they fired that big gun.

[Agaricus bisporus]

As so usual, a scant 10 minutes content for 60 minutes programme.

Like a McDonalds burger, 90% filler, 10% content.

and no no no don't pursue me for my maths. The prog was just waste'o time crap.

[cornish-stormrider]

Disagree vehemently
I watched it from TiVo tonight
Young stumps jr had been introduced to merlins good n proper

It made me want to rip into my 1/24 mozzie airfix kit, and I'm banned until I build my new project shed for trainsets n model kits......

Arthur did a cracking job, at least he admitted he joined the wrong service.....

Well almost

400 kts and 50 ft......damn

[CoffmanStarter]

C-S ...

Until I build my new project shed ...

Every man with some practical engineering tendencies MUST have a shed :ok:

The fact that the jet engine was invented in a shed is my justification ... back to developing my positronic hyperplasma star drive this morning :}

[Yamagata ken]

CoffmanStarter

I hope you haven't missed this then:

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/342490-about-time-we-had-shed-thread-thread.html

Somewhat lacking in photos, but a good place to start.

[CoffmanStarter]

YK ... Thanks for that ... a bit small scale for me :cool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/have_fun/360/images/cardington_hanger_270.jpg

:ok:

[Yamagata ken]

Cardington. I note with pleasure that the left-hand shed is under restoration, and the doors are off at present. Anyway, any shed photos welcome in the thread referenced above. There are some of mine there. I'm a happy bunny in my man space.

[Samuel]

Here you go......the "Kiwi" Mosquito at the recent Hamilton Ontario Canadian Warplanes Hertage Airshow.

Video from the Mosquito of the Lancaster etc at Hamilton, ON | Wings Over New Zealand (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/19755/video-mosquito-lancaster-etc-hamilton)

[B Fraser]

I've flown inside the shed on the right. It was in a balloon and we hopped across the floor for a few feet just so we could say that we'd done it.

:ok:

[Chugalug2]

Samuel, brilliant! What an amazing and inspiring video. One can only say a very sincere "Well done!" to all those involved in making it happen. For a bunch of assorted Colonials (including those resident to the immediate south ;-), you've all done very, very well. :ok:
It could never happen here of course, the mere thought of the risk assessment of possible RTA's alone would put paid to that. :ugh:

[Wander00]

Last time I saw a Lancaster and Mosquito together was the Pathfinders 50th Anniversary weekend ay Wyton in 1992. Beautiful and evocative footage. Thanks

[Samuel]

Keith Skilling ,flying the Mosquito,later had the opportunity to fly the Lancaster from the right hand seat.It seems his father flew Lancasters during the war.Just imagine for a moment what that would have felt like for Keith.:ok:

[500N]

How long has NZ had a flying Lancaster ?

[Samuel]

How long has NZ had a flying Lancaster ?

It[NZ] hasn't! That in the video is the Canadian Heritage one,and Keith was taking part flying the [now]Jerry Yagen -owned Mosquito.

There is a Lancaster in NZ, in Auckland,and given enough money could fly......

[500N]

Samuel

Thanks, I had forgotten that the Mossie had gone to the US.


I see they fixed up the wing tip of the Lanc.

[Danny42C]

A thousand and one things helped to save Britain in '39/'45 - Hitler's strategic mistakes being one of the most important ones.

The Mossie was a wonderful machine - even if a few of them fell to pieces on us in India - but there were many others.

D.

[Wensleydale]

The fact that the jet engine was invented in a shed is my justification ...
back to developing my positronic hyperplasma star drive this morning


Was the shed one of fifty and painted grey? :\

[SASless]

he B17 for example could only manage a 4000 lb bomb load

Combined with a Crew of Ten....Ten to Twelve .50 Cal MG's and went to Berlin in the daylight.....but we gloss over that now don't we.

[RedhillPhil]

It[NZ] hasn't! That in the video is the Canadian Heritage one,and Keith was taking part flying the [now]Jerry Yagen -owned Mosquito.

There is a Lancaster in NZ, in Auckland,and given enough money could fly......

Coo, just think if the Paton brothers one could be made airworthy and the N.Z. one, then bring the N.Z. and the Canadian one over here. What a fly past they'd make!

[Samuel]

Another short video from the same airshow in Canada, this time mainly of Keith Skilling talking about the restoration and test flights.

The test flights in September were advertised as just that,and some 15000 people turned up!

Mosquito Roll Out Today | Wings Over New Zealand (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/17595/mosquito-roll-out-today?page=85)

[A A Gruntpuddock]

Author of 'The new science of strong materials' was once stationed in the East.

He had to go round all the Mossies in the squadron and smell them!

Apparently a combination of heat, humidity & local fungi combined to convert the glue into a crumbly mess.

Scent of cheese meant that replacement parts were required.

[RodfjH]

Is anyone aware of Mosquito operations in Burma between 44-46 in the Supply dropping role?

[Milo Minderbinder]

de Havilland Mosquito - rare archive & newsreel footage - with killing joke ok ?? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=pacluxeWkCw)

[RatherBeFlying]

One of several articles:

War in the East: How Khalkhin-Gol changed the course of WWII | Russia & India Report (http://indrus.in/blogs/2013/05/07/war_in_the_east_how_khalkhin-gol_changed_the_course_of_wwii_24603.html)

Up to KG, modern Japan had gotten very much used to having its own way militarily. After KG, they decided to take on easier targets -- and somehow decided that the US was one of the easy targets:}

[500N]

You learn something new every day.

US - Easier target only because they didn't listen to some Admirals / Generals ?

And as the Japanese Admiral said, we have just woken a sleeping giant !!!

[GeeRam]

It[NZ] hasn't! That in the video is the Canadian Heritage one,and Keith was taking part flying the [now]Jerry Yagen -owned Mosquito.

Not quite sure what you're trying to infer with the [now] Jerry Yagen owned.....as if it was owned by someone else prior to be shipped to the USA....?
Jerry bought the pile of bits of KA114 many years ago (off of Jim Mezaarian IIRC?), and had them shipped out to NZ to be restored using the first airworthy fuselage from Glyn.

Shame Jerry is now in a financial situation that means the Mossie will either stay on the ground for the forseable future or be sold. A lot of the rest of his fleet has already been put up for sale (Spitfire, Corsair, TBM etc) and some of them have already been sold (Dragon Rapide, B-17G, FW190)

[500N]

"it was their greater industrial capacity."

Helps a great deal when it's not being bombed every day, night, week, month !!!
(As in the US and UK later on in the war).

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

What was it that Bert Harris said after the end of the War?


In a letter to the head of Avro after the war, Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Harris, the Commander in Chief of Bomber Command, said of the Lancaster:

“I would say this to those who placed that shining sword in our hands: Without your genius and efforts we could not have prevailed, for I believe that the Lancaster was the greatest single factor in winning the war.”


RAF BBMF - The Lancaster (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/theaircraft/lancaster.cfm)

As has been said previously, it's unlikely that a single aircraft or any other weapon "saved Britain". More likely it was the combined effect of several types of sea, land and air machines working together intelligently and with imagination by the men commanding and operating them.

[Plastic Bonsai]

Finally got to see this - and it was a fine thing - bit too much dust around when he got the flight - and some stunning vintage flight clips. Just how low was that fourship crossing those fields in the clip they showed at least twice? Lobbing bombs into railway tunnels (and pulling up in time)?

I remember a clip - possibly of Wing Co. Pickard briefing the crews before the Amiens Raid: "We will cross the Channel at low level and no one is to be lower than me!"

Wherever that Mosquito ends up it really needs to be low over Northern France on 18th Feb next year or at very least Mr Williams needs to front a documentary about Operation Jericho with every clip he can find.

I'm a bit of fan so another statistic:

Number of aircraft to take out a "No Ball" site:

30 B17,
17 Lancasters or
1 Mosquito delivering 4000lb straight down.

[500N]

"Wherever that Mosquito ends up it really needs to be low over Northern France on 18th Feb next year or at very least Mr Williams needs to front a documentary about Operation Jericho with every clip he can find."

+ 1

Would be nice if at one stage a Lanc, Mossie, Spitfire and Hurricane could all fly over France.

[MAINJAFAD]

I'm pretty sure the Mossie went all the way to Berlin in daylight, don't know if it took a full 4000lbs with it though.

No pretty sure about it at all. 6 Mossies in two waves did it on 30th January 1943. The first attack by 3 aircraft from 105 Sqn was timed to attack the main radio station at the exact time that Göring was starting a well publicised morning radio broadcast celebrating the Nazi's 10 years in power. 3 Mossies from 139 Sqn repeated the attack in the afternoon to disrupt a planned speech by Goebbels. Both attacks were successful in that they caused extreme embarrassment to the Nazi leadership (though one mossie and its crew were lost on the second attack). Plenty of 4000lbs cookies dropped on Berlin by mossies though almost all at night.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Mosquito Squadron 1969 - YouTube

Bouncing bomb used on land @ 29'30"
I've still yet to find the film (which apparently does exist) of the mozzies shooting Highballs down that Welsh railway tunnel

[MAINJAFAD]

Haven't seen the film of the tunnel test, however there are pubilshed photos of the land dropped highball test dropped by a Mossie on the Ashley Walk bombing range in late 43 (edit - which I think was stills taken from the footage used in the clip, always thought that bit of film footage was fake until I read up about it a few years back).

[54Phan]

Let us not lose sight of the fact that the title of the piece is "Meeja" hoopla. The Mossie (my favourite piston engine aircraft, btw) played a major role in the eventual Allied victory. Was it decisive? Well, the main point is that it helped to bring about the aforementioned victory. It can take its place beside the Battle of Britain Spits and Hurricanes, the Dambusters, the Short Stirling crews, the Dakota crews, the far east Brewster Buffalo pilots, Ken Campbell, to cut this short, people who, as I like to say, stared evil down. Sorry for the runon.

[500N]

What about the Mossies role in pathfinding and making
the bombers more accurate ?

[54Phan]

Yes, they certainly did improve the accuracy of the bombers. Don't forget "Operation Ploughman" either. "Moskitopanik" too.

[Hokulea]

My father passed away a long time ago, way back in 1989. When I was a kid he told me about his job during WWII. He was an RDF operator for most of his time directing night fighters to intercept German intruders. He also spent a little time flying as a navigator/observer in mosquitos and was in an RAF group attached to the US on D-Day setting up RDF/radar to detect the expected strong Luftwaffe response.

I think all I want to say is thank you for this thread. I haven't been able to talk to my father for a long time of course, but he always told me how wonderful the Mosquito was and how it changed the war.

Sorry for the interruption, but thought you'd like to know.

[KiwiBoyZac]

I'm not sure where else to post this, but there are now three airworthy Mosquitos: former IWM example TV959 flew yesterday at Ardmore, NZ. It's destined for Paul Allen's Flying Heritage collection in Everett, WA.


Some lovely photos of the maiden can be found here (http://mrcaviation.********.co.nz/2016/09/mosquito-takes-to-skies.html).