CITATION XL AT FAB or XLS at CAE UK

[maxed-out]

Hello everybody,

Need some advice from current XL pilots regarding these two ATO's in the UK.

I have the opportunity to gain employment on the XLS + and the gotcha is the chief pilot will only talk seriously once I have the rating in hand. So yes, it will be self-funded. Been waiting nearly 4 years for this break so want to pick the best provider. Will be cheaper in the States as there is no vat but don't fancy the hassle of flights, TSA etc as this will delay me further.

So given the choice; if you were forking out your own hard earned "queenies", would you go to CAE Burgess Hill or Flight Safety Farnborough? If FAB is recommended what would be involved in getting the XLS+ on my licence as I think FAB only have an XL sim?

I'm based in the South East and will be home every night so hotels, things to do, leisure etc. is not a factor for me. CAE is 30 mins away and FAB an hour and 20 away.

Thanks

[Gulfstreamaviator]

There is no certainty of your employment.??? yes / NO....

It is a big risk, to buy a TR, and not have the job.

The problem is that, if the job does not happen what can you do...is there work for that TR.

Also IF the CP was serious and there was an opening, then I would suggest discuss a deal, whereby you sell your wife and kids to him as slave labour, and he employs YOU......

I am not going down the road of pay to fly...

Glf

good luck whatever happens, get FAA and JAA / EASA TR PIC, on your licences......

[maxed-out]

Gulfstreamaviator,

Thanks for the response. A little disappointing but at least you gave one.

I tried to give a concise overview of my situation and asked for advice regarding two well known ATO's. The CP gave me reasons for not commiting at this stage without the TR on paper. To preserve my chances of getting this job in future and not to bend his nose out of shape in case he reads this, I shall not get into this now.

And I am not paying to fly. Hence why I have been patient for 4 years and networked.

Thanks for the concern. I know you tried to mean well. The wife and child comment was not needed though.

Anyone else have any comments regarding the two Type Rating Providers?

Thanks

[Globalstream]

Dear Maxed Out

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, when I started flying (a C152 could be had for 29 USD/hour), I cannot begin to count the number of times I was promised work once I had...insert blank. Insert multi-engine rating, 400 hours, 1200 hours, jet experience or whatever.

Not a single promise was made good and the disappointing, though extremely profitable, lesson I learned was to hope for the best, but always, always plan for the worst.

Never, ever count on a verbal agreement and by that I mean never make serious personal and financial arrangements like relocating on the sole basis of a promise etc.

This guy has told you to revisit him when you have a type. He may mean well, but unless he`s prepared to make a formal arrangement then you will be taking a foolish gamble with your money and your future. Don`t do it.

I and many others have said it before and I`ll keep saying- self funding is risky and a poor contribution to the profession besides. If it is ever relevant, it is relevant to professional contractors who already have work arrangements and a hard nosed plan for payback and profit and by "professional contractors" I mean guys with thousands of hours, an on going business and work ahead of time.

Go talk to him about a formal agreement and maybe you can cut a deal. If not walk away and sit tight for something serious.

If you do go and you have a say in the matter of training, I`m sorry to report that it seems to be a crapshoot regardless of the vendor. I have mostly used FSI and once you figure out the best centre they seem to be fairly consistent, but my worst experience was also with them.

In all cases, hang tight and good luck.
GS

[what next]

Go talk to him about a formal agreement...

If you really see no other way than to fund your own type rating then a formal agreement with your future employer is absolutely essential. Otherwise you risk spending a lot of money for nothing. There are plenty of unemployed Excel pilots out there already now, some of them with a lot of experience on type.
Coming out of the training facility will not leave you with a finished type rating anyway, but you will have to do your landing training on a real aircraft first. Without an employer who lets you do this on his aircraft, this will be very difficult and costly to achieve.

Regarding your initial question: My colleagues who fly the Excel more or less alternate between the two training facilities. Which one to choose is rather a question of getting a convenient training slot than anything else. AFAIK none of these two facilities has the XLS+, so differences training will always be required. The best way to do this might be, once again, using the actual aircraft of your employer. So really, all this makes no sense at all without an employment contract of some sort!

[His dudeness]

Anyone else have any comments regarding the two Type Rating Providers?

Well I don´t fly the XLS or Excel nor the XLS+, but I visit FSI FAB regularly.

My advise: give them a ring, they are most helpful when called. And they usually know their stuff... and what they don´t know instantly, they check and get back to you.

BTW, the advise given by the previous posters is spot on and I do know several pilots that went through painful experiences. In fact, I talked to a victim today...

Be careful.

Good luck!

h_d

[maxed-out]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

I concur it is a shed load of money to fork out with a "maybe" at the end of it.

Oh dear, what a dilemma! Taken me a long time to get this glimmer of a job.

I'll post back in 4 weeks. Anyway it seems FSI is the way to go if I go ahead.

Cheers.

[pilotkq777]

Hey maxed out

Have you considered doing the right seat program at CAE burgess hill.
I'm based here in Dallas and act as copilot for single clients coming for initial or recurrent. You can get a max of two TRs. Check their website for more details.

[LearjetGA]

Hi Maxed-out,

First of all, all the best for your future employment.

Regarding your question, my answer would be none.

FSI is really good but they teach the Excel, CAE are OK (most of the instructors are really good and some have no idea and teach you a different aircraft) but they teach the XLS.

The XLS+, being a variant of the C560XL rating, is quite a different ride. While all systems are more or less the same, (compared to the XLS,) the office is completely different (proline 21 and Collins FMS compared to the Honeywell Primus 1000+ and universal tamagotchi). If at all possible try to go to Wichita, that's the only XLS+ simulator around.

If your financials do not permit it, then I would suggest to go to CAE.

Please google a picture of the front office and look at the differences between the XLS and XLS+. I think that the only point in common is the Yoke and the APU control... Try to get your future employer to pay for the differences training.

[jackx123]

Get an employment contract conditional you have the relevant rating (XLS or whatever). Shouldn't be that hard to add the extra line.

[Yogibaboo]

Strongly recommend you to go to FSI Wichita!!! XL/XLS vs XLS+ have completely different cockpits!!! Not just avionics (Primus vs ProLine21), but every single switch and button is located differently.

Good Luck!!!

Yogi

[maxed-out]

To all who contributed,

Many thanks for the useful information and also for the warnings. I will need to contemplate the risks and make an informed decision soon.

Safe flying and blue skies.

m-o

[densityaltitude]

Through FlightSafety International - EASA XLS+ EASA/JAA Initial Pilot Training only available at Wichita Cessna Learning Centre, their XLS+ in Orlando does not currently cover EASA.

They are the only XLS+ Level D sims in the world as the other ATOs offer the XL with differences training.

If in Europe call Nigel Warren at FlightSafety FAB +447824143509 (he is 24/7 unless flying somewhere).

[winkwink]

I've paid for two type ratings, admittedly on less expensive aircraft than the Excel and both led to shed loads of work. I suppose they both paid for themselves with four months and I'm still working off the back of the first one ten years on.
I have done a renewal at B Hill and right seated for a renewal at F boro. Both excellent schools and a lot better than the USA equivalents. Overall I'd have to say I'd just give the edge to Farnborough. It's close but it's slightly more personal there.
Contact Nigel Warren. He will look after you. The best representative FSI ever had.