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Courtney Mil
9th Jul 2013, 15:20
George Grant has presented his report on the future defence of an independent Scotland to the Scottish Parliament and In London. It has angered the SNP, largely because it exposes the massive holes in their defence policy.

The full report is available on the Henry Jackson Society website at http://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/HJS-In-Scotlands-Defence-Report-LOW-RES.pdf

He has been appearing before the House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee giving evidence about his report and the SNP reaction to it. You can watch the video of the session at Player (http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=13556&wfs=true)

NutLoose
9th Jul 2013, 17:47
It wouldn't suprise me after seeing the Panorama last night involving Salmond and Trump..
Basically Trump promised 650 jobs or there about and 1 billion investment, they sold him the land for £7.000,000, over rode the local planners objections resulting in 1 course being built, a temporary club house built and Trump with the unused land with planning permission worth £100,000,000 and very few jobs created.

Speedywheels
9th Jul 2013, 17:56
Got exactly zero air time on Reporting Scotland tonight. The sun shining, future investment in tennis and the transmission of a murder trial by another broadcaster apparently warranted more newsworthy material for BBC Scotland.

cuefaye
9th Jul 2013, 18:35
He's back :rolleyes:

Lima Juliet
9th Jul 2013, 19:27
Nice piece by you in the report Courtney...:ok:

CoffmanStarter
9th Jul 2013, 20:08
LJ ... Seconded :ok:

cuefaye
9th Jul 2013, 20:21
:rolleyes: -------

CoffmanStarter
9th Jul 2013, 20:43
What's up Cue old chap ?

Courtney Mil
9th Jul 2013, 20:55
Cue has an issue. Never known what it is, but then, perhaps I haven't given it enough thought.

I do enjoy this debate, though, and I think George raises some very interesting issues. I have to add that my part in it is very small; this research took him months of solid work. Certainly a new starting place for thought and debate about potential independence.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
9th Jul 2013, 21:01
I've never defended Donald Trump before, and I won't start now. However, given he wanted to build a resort for rich gits, the scrubbing of the project when approval is given for a host of wind turbines cluttering up the view should come as no surprise.
As with the defence policy, there's no joined up thinking through of events. Either Salmond is stupid or "disingenuous". Choose.

CoffmanStarter
9th Jul 2013, 21:05
Well he's certainly Gaffe Prone :mad:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02611/cameron-andy-murra_2611352b.jpg

The Royal Box indeed ...

Cheap shot Mr !

500N
9th Jul 2013, 21:09
What are the current thoughts on the result of the referendum ?

Which way is it swinging at the moment ?

500N
9th Jul 2013, 21:10
"The Royal Box indeed ..."

For the last time :O

Kluseau
9th Jul 2013, 21:19
I'll admit it: my first response on seeing this thread was "oh no, not again..."

But, despite a profound distrust of policy wonks built up over decades of interacting with too many of them, it has to be acknowledged that this is actually a very good document. It asks all the right questions, and is obviously extremely well researched.

And while it overtly seeks to pick holes in the SNP's stance on defence, with a considerable measure of success, the result is an oddly balanced document. If the SNP have any sense they will read it carefully, and seek to learn leassons from it as things move towards the vote. And the thing about the SNP is that they do seem to have a fair measure of common sense, an especially uncommon commodity among politicians. I expect to hear echoes of this document from odd places before the referendum campaign goes much further.

At the end of the day, however, it seems fair to ask whether this document, however good it is, is going to make any difference one way or the other in September 2014. I doubt it. The author says in his conclusion: "voters need to be presented with the clearest possible picture of what they are voting for." Voters will vote, one way or the other, for something much more fundamental than one side's policy on this, or another's policy on that.

And for any Scot that does care deeply about defence, while, as this document ably points out, the SNP policy is paper thin, it's not as if the UK Government is doing much better, is it?

At the end of the day, as I suspect I've said before in another similar thread, the outcome of the referendum will have far more to do with the quantum of dislike for Cameron and his UK government than the quantum of support for the SNP.

matkat
9th Jul 2013, 21:24
500N yes vote is becoming preference largely because of the negative comments coming out, the mobile phone cost rise being the latest guff. Does everyone think we Jock's are stupid? Evidently so by the rubbish we keep being fed, lets get back to pre referendum days how many times have we heard that England supports us? If we are such a burdens then why not cast us adrift to fend for ourselves we seem not to be scared but our 'benefactors' in the south seem very much wanting to keep us! I really wonder why, not:confused:

500N
9th Jul 2013, 21:28
Lately I haven't read or seen that much in the UK media about it

Am 1/4 Scottish and one of my names is Sutherland
so have a bit of interest in it.

Not sure I think it is a good idea but a bit far away to judge.
Bit like Australia becoming a republic, not much would change !


The document is an interesting read, well researched.

matkat
9th Jul 2013, 21:29
Kluseau the first part of your post I totally agree with the second I do not the SNP is a democratically elected government in this country with a mandate to govern it disappoints me when I hear people criticising Salmon for what is perceived as his personal agenda because being democratically elected by the Scottish people then it follows that he has the people support for his policies.

matkat
9th Jul 2013, 21:36
N500 your comment is understood and respected but it is us that must/shall make that decision here in Scotland 11% of the population are English and this of course shall be very significant in the yes/no answer I certainly think that Scotland can easily make it alone and being a Scot my vote is yes. It surely every nations desire to be self governing we are very proud of who we are and the notion is that we take this chance and be our own governors .
Lady's and Gentlemen who maybe reading this I am in Hannover it is my 55 birthday so pleases forgive any spelling or grammatical error you may see birthday drinks have got in the way of usual communications, hic. Dave

matkat
9th Jul 2013, 21:43
N500 your comment is understood and respected but it is us that must/shall make that decision here in Scotland 11% of the population are English and this of course shall be very significant in the yes/no answer I certainly think that Scotland can easily make it alone and being a Scot my vote is yes. It surely every nations desire to be self governing we are very proud of who we are and the notion is that we take this chance and be our own governors .

500N
9th Jul 2013, 21:43
mat

Agree, it needs to be decided by the Scots but for the right reasons
and half the time I see people asking for this or a republic, half the
reasons are just not worth it.

I have now done a bit more research and don't like the look of
Salmond.

matkat
9th Jul 2013, 22:07
N500 like or loathe is irrelevant as previously stated he is the democratically elected leader of Scotland right now with a manifesto of leading Scotland to independence ie making Scotland an independent nation a nation as as the name suggests Scottish national party.

newt
9th Jul 2013, 22:17
Salmond is a bully! His views should be treated as such. Well done D Trump for exposing his total lack of understanding when it comes to the financial future for Scotland!

His performance in the Royal Box at Wimbledon says it all!! No manners, no style and no understanding of the people!

He will be banished to a political widerness come the next election!

Ask yourself this question! Would you be happy with him as president of an independent Scotland?

Off to bed now with trip wires set and the prospect of another days fishing tomorrow!:ok:

500N
9th Jul 2013, 22:26
matkat

"he is the democratically elected leader of Scotland right now"

Maybe because no one else is stupid enough to do it.


As newt said "His performance in the Royal Box at Wimbledon says it all!! No manners, no style and no understanding of the people!"

Would I want him representing Scotland on the world stage ?
Sorry, no, he comes across as an egotistical bafoon.


Independant Scotland ?
It won't be much different to now except you won't have a teat to suck.


One last thing
It's all well and good when things are going well - see Ireland
- but when the shyte hits the fan as in a GFC and it all comes
crashing down, that is when it will cost Scotland.

When the oil runs out, when the Navy stops inputting into
the economy.

OutlawPete
10th Jul 2013, 07:02
Courntney, you just love this debate old chap! The document does raise some interesting points that need answered and although I've only skimmed through it, I intend to give it full attention.

Regarding Salmond, I too saw Panorama and thought that it was Trump that came over as the bully. Should we allow one man to dictate our energy policy or indeed any of our political plans? The last thing we want is another Bliar bending over and taking it from someone from across the pond.

500N, if your implication is that Scotland is milking England then surely you must also identify that the UK is kissing the arse that farts dollar bills!


Edited for spelling! Damn fone!

Kluseau
10th Jul 2013, 07:59
Kluseau the first part of your post I totally agree with the second I do not the SNP is a democratically elected government in this country with a mandate to govern it disappoints me when I hear people criticising Salmon for what is perceived as his personal agenda because being democratically elected by the Scottish people then it follows that he has the people support for his policies.

Oddly enough, my post wasn't intended as criticism of Salmond, who I view as the second most adept politician currently in post anywhere in these islands (the first being his deputy Nicola Sturgeon). Like him or loathe him, he runs rings around most of his contemporaries. The SNP have beaten the odds (and an electoral system specifically designed to avoid single party government in Scotland) because when they got the chance they governed pretty well and pretty sensibly in difficult times.

But the point is that the SNP have no mandate in respect of any defence policy. Defence is a matter reserved to the UK Government (at present), so it did not feature especially significantly as an issue in the last Scottish parliamentary elections.

It has only become a real issue because of the possibility of independence. Coming from a standing start the SNP have struggled with defence, as the document this thread is about makes clear. That seems pretty inevitable in the circumstances, and is why I think the document might actually help. But as I said in my last post, the UK government have also fouled up their defence policy over the same period, and they don't have the excuse of any lack of background, experience or so-called expert advice on the subject.

Turning to the question of which way the vote will go, the main forces in favour of independence are the extent to which Scots truly want to define their own destiny (or not); plus the increasingly strong push to disengage from the most divisive, destructive and inept Whitehall government in a generation; ably supported by moronic scare stories generated by the "no" camp over things like mobile phones (more expensive in an independent Scotland, allegedly) and the Royal Mail (now haven't they been looked after well by the current UK government?) Will these factors be enough to bring about an independent Scotland? I don't know, and neither does anyone else. But it will be interesting finding out...

ORAC
10th Jul 2013, 09:07
If we are such a burdens then why not cast us adrift to fend for ourselves we seem not to be scared but our 'benefactors' in the south seem very much wanting to keep us! If think you might be surprised.....

Official: More English than Scots want independence for Scotland (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2086833/Scottish-independence-More-English-Scots-want-independence-Scotland.html)

lj101
10th Jul 2013, 11:59
Shetland Islanders view;


The report by Capital Economics is being raised in the Scottish Parliament by Shetland’s MSP during a debate over the future of the oil and gas industry on Wednesday.

Scottish energy minister Fergus Ewing said the government’s focus was on maximising recovery of oil and gas from the seabed around the country.

He pointed out that UK recovery rates lag behind those of Norway and increasing them by a mere one per cent would boost tax revenues by £22 billion.

However London-based UK economist Martin Beck, of Capital Economics, believes that the long term future of oil revenues is less rosy and ultimately Scotland could become a fiscal drain on the remaining UK if independence goes ahead.

In his report 'What would Scottish independence mean for the remaining UK', Beck also highlighted the Shetland factor, pointing out that “a significant proportion of Scottish oil actually lies in waters surrounding the Shetland Islands”.

He says this fact puts Shetland in a strong position in the event of independence negotiations between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

“Secession by Scotland could encourage similar aspirations among Shetland Islanders, perhaps resulting in a situation analogous to that between Denmark and the Faroe Islands, where the latter, while being part of the Kingdom of Denmark, has a high degree of self- government,” he writes.

“Or Shetland could conceivably choose to remain as part of the UK, with implications for the balance of gain and loss to (the remaining) UK from Scotland’s departure from the Union.”

Shetland MSP Tavish Scott Ahead of Wednesday’s debate, Shetland MSP Tavish Scott said he had always believed Shetland had a place at the negotiating table over Scotland’s oil.

“If this debate is about geography then the talks should be held in Lerwick,” he said.

“Capital Economics are stating the obvious truth - Shetland is in the middle of the North Sea and west of Shetland oil fields and therefore has a geographical right to those fields.

"Winnie Ewing first claimed it was Scotland's oil. She never had much luck with that argument in Shetland even when she was the MEP for the Highlands and Islands.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
10th Jul 2013, 12:16
Funny how devolutionists always want devolution down to their level but never any lower.
Shetland choosing to belong to Norway (again) would make the maiden voyage of the new ship 'Scotland' somewhat akin to that of the Titanic.

Of course, the Dukes of Buccleuch and Atholl between them own a bigger area than the Shetlands.



.

OutlawPete
10th Jul 2013, 12:23
I must admit I have reservations as to just how far £2.5B (if that is what the SNP plan to spend) will go in terms of defence funding. That said, the UK is fading fast on an international stage so what will we be left with as a UK soon anyway.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/5005631/UK-falls-down-defence-spending-league-table.html

Someone else said it before, should independence happen, it will be because Cameron and co lost through a series of blunders. That and the fact that (Salmond aside) the SNP are doing a reasonable job of running things.

SOSL
10th Jul 2013, 15:09
Quite an impressive performance by George Grant, in front of the HOC.

Comprehensive command of his subject matter, calm and measured delivery, no deviation from his own "line to take" and no adverse reaction to aggressive questions.

Some of our Airships could learn from him!

Rgds SOS

5 Forward 6 Back
10th Jul 2013, 15:35
The only irritating thing with issues like this is that they muddy the waters over the independence question.

The question isn't "would you like the SNP, in its current form, to run an independent Scotland?" It's "should Scotland be an independent nation?"

Following any successful "yes" vote, it would then be up to existing and yet-to-form political parties to put together manifestos on how they'd run an independent Scotland; and that's when they'll all have to answer the hard questions on the Royal Mail, mobile phones, defence, health spending, education, etc.

Ripping apart the SNP's attitude to or plans for defence doesn't help; because even if residents vote to make Scotland independent, it's far from assured that they'll end up as the governing party.

The optimists look at Denmark, Norway and Belgium as examples of an off-the-shelf military spend for an independent Scotland, the pessimists look at Ireland or Iceland and very limited forces. Thing is, when people are mulling over the question of whether or not the country should be independent, how many fast jets Scotland runs and how often she participates in UN-led ops, or even if she becomes a NATO member are pretty far down the list of considerations.

You don't have to look far for extremely negative views of this and the previous Labour governments. A lot of intelligent people, including those of us in the armed forces, are interested in the potential of an independent Scotland, even if it means it's unlikely to attend a RED FLAG or have its own aircraft carriers!

rab-k
10th Jul 2013, 18:22
Shetland choosing to belong to Norway (again) would make the maiden voyage of the new ship 'Scotland' somewhat akin to that of the Titanic.
The Picts 'lost' the Northern Isles to the Norse during the 9th century, through force on the part of the Vikings. Scotland, (by which time incorporating Pictland), retrieved these isles through treaty and Act of Parliament in 1472. Norway 'owned' the Northern isles for approximately 6 centuries. So long as my kids keep off the fags and booze, they will live to see the day when Scotland's tenure of the Northern Isles equals that of Norway's. (Hell, even I might manage to do likewise :}). When the pre-Viking tenure of the Picts is included, Scotland already has Norway's temporary stewardship beat. So tell me again that 'other' version of history? (The Danes evidently ravaged the Isle of Wight in 871, perhaps the present occupants of that island might therefore like to revert to Danish rule).

As for flag waving....some people need to get a life (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/7703-flagging-up-offence)...

And as for defence? (in chronological order)



Fresh defence 'scare' as yet another 'think tank' blasts independence (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7634-fresh-defence-scare-as-yet-another-think-tank-blasts-independence)

Scotland would be as safe with its own Defence Force (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/7652-scotland-would-be-as-safe-with-its-own-defence-force)

'The Scotland Institute' a Scare-Story Howitzer (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/7662-the-scotland-institute-a-scare-story-howitzer)

Response to most common arguments against Scotland Institute’s Defence Report (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/7667-response-to-most-common-arguments-against-scotland-institutes-defence-report)

Hundreds lose jobs as MoD redundancies hit Scottish communities (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/7675-hundreds-lose-jobs-as-mod-redundancies-hit-scottish-communities)



The Scotland Institute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Institute) is a think tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_tank) operating in Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) which describes itself as "progressive and independent". It was founded by Azeem Ibrahim, a "hedge fund millionaire", and formally launched in June 2013 by Alistair Darling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Darling), former Chancellor of the Exchequer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer), shortly after he was confirmed as the leader of the Better Together (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Together_%28campaign%29) campaign against Scottish independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence). Its first major report is called Defence and Security in an Independent Scotland (http://www.scotlandinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Defence_Report_-_Scot_Inst.pdf), which considers the impact on defence in Scotland in the event of a Yes vote in the Scottish independence referendum, 2014 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014).

http://www.scotlandinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/111.png

Alistair Darling: "I believe we can cement Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom once and for all"

Jackson Carlaw: "If you are a supporter of any political Party, or none and wish to campaign to renew the most successful political and economic union in history then do sign up to Better Together"

Jo Swinson: "I look forward to making the case for more powers for a Scotland which works as part of a United Kingdom. I hope as many people as possible across the nation take the opportunity to show their support for the Better Together campaign."

Dr Azeem Ibrahim: "in the context of calls for independence from people suffering under repressive dictatorships around the world, it is hard to see the SNP's demands as anything but sentimental, and even frivolous."


The Scotland Institute, "progressive and independent" .... my @R$€.....

Fox3WheresMyBanana
10th Jul 2013, 19:10
rab-k my point was about what the people of Shetland want, not about which bigger bunch of people most want Shetland.
Taking it to the extreme, can one person declare UDI on their own small patch of Earth? and if not, why not? Where does the line get drawn?

Herod
10th Jul 2013, 20:12
Re the referendum, why is Cameron delaying the EU in/out until 2017? If Scotland vote to stay in the UK in 2014, that would be a pretty solid bloc voting for "in", which is the way he wants it to go. Lots of crinkly faces if the 2017 goes "out". We can but hope.

Courtney Mil
10th Jul 2013, 20:46
OutlawPete,

Yes, Mate. Sorry, but I do find it interesting. I think mainly because decades of defending the Northern Flank makes wonder what it wooud be like to have a potential hole there in our nation's defenses. Also the other effects that could fall out of an "out" vote on the rump of the UK. But mainly, it's just interesting to try to peek through the politics to see what's really going on.

rab-k
11th Jul 2013, 06:27
rab-k my point was about what the people of Shetland want

This do you.....

Islanders say they want to remain Scottish (http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3201771)


Press & Journal, 17/04/2013

The vast majority of people in Shetland and Orkney believe the northern isles should remain part of Scotland.

An exclusive poll commissioned by the Press and Journal showed that 82% thought the current arrangements should be maintained.

A total of 8% of respondents said they thought the northern isles should break away from Scotland and 10% said they did not know.


As for the other article...

SNP slams 'partial, partisan and inaccurate' defence report by right-wing think tank (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7674-snp-slams-partial-partisan-and-inaccurate-defence-report-by-right-wing-think-tank)




And today, yet another prime example of the colonial mindset ever present within Whitehall...

Faslane Trident base could be in UK after Scottish independence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23265886)


Our very own MacGuantanamo, you couldn't make it up...

Will these guys be posted inside the fence I wonder...

http://www.universalhub.com/images/2008/redcoats-brigade2008-08-16.jpg

:}

500N
11th Jul 2013, 06:44
rab

It makes sense.

But in the long run, I am sure the UK could easily build
something further along the coast or even well down south.

The problem is of course requiring two bases close to each other
but separated.

CoffmanStarter
11th Jul 2013, 06:59
Interesting ...


Ministry of Defence officials are exploring the idea of retaining a Scottish naval base as sovereign UK territory if there is a yes vote in next year's independence referendum.

An MoD spokesman said it was confident Scotland would remain part of the UK and that the scale and cost of relocating the base in the event of a yes vote would be "enormous".

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68663000/jpg/_68663177_trident.jpg

More here ...

BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23265886)

How about extending the sovereign UK territory argument to our Air Bases or do we then encounter problems with Airspace considerations ?

500N
11th Jul 2013, 07:11
I always remember the Sub coming back from the Falklands
and sailing into port with the Jolly Roger flag. Caused a bit
of a stir but had the full support of the country !

They had a good program on the US Subs the other day,
plenty of filming inside it while at sea and what goes on.
More detailed than I thought it would be including filming
all the exercises.

CoffmanStarter
11th Jul 2013, 07:25
Here you go 500N ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Pirate_Flag_of_HMS_Conqueror.svg

http://thumbsnap.com/i/KFI61AN4.jpg

lj101
11th Jul 2013, 07:46
Rab

That link would be to an Aberdeen rag? Well they would say that wouldn't they;

More local views here;

Debate | Shetland News (http://www.shetnews.co.uk/features/scottish-independence-debate/)

ORAC
11th Jul 2013, 07:51
How about extending the sovereign UK territory argument to our Air Bases or do we then encounter problems with Airspace considerations ? Well it worked with the SBAs in Cyprus.

melmothtw
11th Jul 2013, 07:53
Funny how devolutionists always want devolution down to their level but never any lower.

The same can be said for those who want the UK out of Europe - they're happy for the UK to have 'independence', but not for its constituent nations.

Roland Pulfrew
11th Jul 2013, 08:18
they're happy for the UK to have 'independence', but not for its constituent nations.


Au contraire Mel. I would vote to leave Europe (I personally think it's the right thing to do) and if the Scots want to vote to leave the UK then that is their decision (I personally don't think that is the right thing to do). I can't see why that viewpoint is mutually exclusive or illogical.

I have to say though that there seems to be an element in Government that must be out to persuade the Scots to vote for independence though; why else would the SBA issue be out in the Press? How many UK parliament seats do Labour and Lib Dems have in Scotland at present? :E

melmothtw
11th Jul 2013, 10:39
Au contraire Mel. I would vote to leave Europe (I personally think it's the right thing to do) and if the Scots want to vote to leave the UK then that is their decision (I personally don't think that is the right thing to do). I can't see why that viewpoint is mutually exclusive or illogical.

Hi Roland,

I agree that your viewpoint is neither mutually exclusive nor illogical, but the fact is that it is not a viewpoint shared by most of the Euro-sceptic community. The Tories and UKIP are both for the UK leaving Europe, but both fought tooth and nail against devolution for Scotland and Wales.

I can see why Fox3 and other UK-centrics should talk up the prospects of Shetland seceeding from Scotland, because that's what larger and overbearing countries do to their smaller neighbours when faced with calls for independence. A case in point is Russia's relationship with Georgia, and it manipulation of the situation with Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

rab-k
11th Jul 2013, 12:58
How about extending the sovereign UK territory argument to our Air Bases or do we then encounter problems with Airspace considerations ?

Ah, I see the colonial mindset is not restricted to those wearing out the carpets of Whitehall.


"our Air Bases" ?


Last time I drove past an RAF base, of which there will soon be a single example of the type left in Scotland, the sign simply said "Royal Air Force Station".

Am I mistaken, or do such facilities belong to England and are merely disguised as something else?

Fareastdriver
11th Jul 2013, 13:00
rab-k

Well picked up.

Roland Pulfrew
11th Jul 2013, 15:41
Ah, I see the colonial mindset is not restricted to

Well of course, at present, the statement "our air bases" is technically correct. They are all our air bases, they "belong" to all of us British. The OP doesn't state "our" as in "English", only the paranoid might think otherwise. ;)

rab-k
11th Jul 2013, 16:04
I think Roland that the context in which the phrase "our Air Bases" appears is quite clear.

You needn't suffer from paranoia to note it, just selective myopia not to. ;)

Kluseau
11th Jul 2013, 16:34
I think Roland that the context in which the phrase "our Air Bases" appears is quite clear.

You needn't suffer from paranoia to note it, just selective myopia not to. ;)

I'm not sure I take any offence at the use of the term. After all, the question of how what is currently "ours" (as in the UK's) should be divided if indendence goes ahead is at the very core of the debate.

Rather more open to challenge is the use of the term "air bases" in the plural. Once Leuchars closes there will only be one place worthy of that description in Scotland.

CoffmanStarter
11th Jul 2013, 16:55
Our Air Bases = OUR as in the UNITED Kingdom ... nothing more/less !

rab-k
11th Jul 2013, 17:02
Coffman, is this current UK or rUK, as in Kingdom of England & N.Ireland?

"the sovereign UK territory argument" in the context of today's news item was the issue with regard to use of the term "our Air Bases".

But let us not split hairs. Seems No. 10 has knocked the idea on the head, for the time being... :hmm:

CoffmanStarter
11th Jul 2013, 17:08
No mate ... I passionately believe in the collective strength of the UK as it stands ... a very sad day if Scotland were to leave the Union IMHO :(

Coff.

TomJoad
11th Jul 2013, 17:40
No mate ... I passionately believe in the collective strength of the UK as it stands ... a very sad day if Scotland were to leave the Union IMHO :(

Coff.

Coffman why do you think that, what does Scotland bring to the UK, by that I mean of course what is the benefit of Scotland to the UK? Genuinely interested to hear your thoughts.

cuefaye
11th Jul 2013, 19:21
I passionately believe in the collective strength of the UK as it stands ... a
very sad day if Scotland were to leave the Union IMHO http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

I agree.

TomJoad,

I don't understand what you mean by 'what does Scotland bring to the UK' - they are part of it, as are the others :rolleyes:.

I also go along with Coff: stronger together, weaker apart, in so many respects.

And if you saw that Scottish First Minister's behaviour at Wimbledon, what a toad!!

Hopefully the great people of Scotland will tell him so.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
11th Jul 2013, 19:39
TomJoad. The, effectively, "what's in it for the UK" question can give a very narrow and bottom line balance sheet answer. It could be used for any other part of the UK to create a very divisive and, perhaps, corrosive atmosphere. The same question might be asked of the Scousers/Woolybacks, Geordies, Brummies and Janners. It's shared history, pride in contribution to combatting past hard times and past contributions to placing these small isles and relatively tiny population so far up the World Nations league.

Are the past sacrifices of Jock Regiments so easily forgotten? let alone those lads who served and still serve in English Units and the British Armed Forces in general.

CoffmanStarter
11th Jul 2013, 20:07
Tom old chap ... I have no highfalutin reasons or convincing economic/political arguments to underpin my personal belief that the retention of the Union is a collectively "good thing" for all of us ... that is Scotland, Wales, NI and England.

I happen to believe the Union isn't "Broken" from anyone's perspective ... so if it ain't broken don't bu99er about with it.

I'm a simple soul ... but fiercely proud of the United Kingdom (as is) and all it stands for :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

OutlawPete
11th Jul 2013, 20:07
No mate ... I passionately believe in the collective strength of the UK as it stands ... a very sad day if Scotland were to leave the Union IMHO http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

Coff.

Agree fully with that, Coff. Regardless of what we think we bring individually to the Union, collectively we are always stronger. I have always believed that Scotland could do just fine independently but that's not a good enough reason for me. And although there have been some good examples of local government from Holyrood, I still don't trust Salmond. Intelligent politician maybe but also a buffoon and his antics on Sunday proved that. I wonder what he thought of Andy crediting the victory as a British Champion (well done fella!:D).

Courtney touched on something a few posts ago relating to the potential of a weak chink in defences in the North and given that it is fairly clear the SNP's £2.5 B won't go very far, I happen to agree, he has a very strong point. Sure there are fewer air bases in Scotland (there are fewer all over the UK) but we still have the flexibility to move resources to areas when we deem it necessary, when we are in the Union.

Interesting point about SBA's as the SNP had even proposed a similar idea a while back themselves...

TomJoad
11th Jul 2013, 22:00
Tom old chap ... I have no highfalutin reasons or convincing economic/political arguments to underpin my personal belief that the retention of the Union is a collectively "good thing" for all of us ... that is Scotland, Wales, NI and England.

I happen to believe the Union isn't "Broken" from anyone's perspective ... so if it ain't broken don't bu99er about with it.

I'm a simple sole ... but fiercely proud of the United Kingdom (as is) and all it stands for :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

Thanks for your honest answer Coffman. While I was hoping for for something. carrying more substance or 'high falutin' as you put it, I respect your honesty.

Cheers fella, :ok:

Tom Joad

Kluseau
12th Jul 2013, 14:06
More than half way through the day, and no new posts: has the debate subsided into happy harmony? Aye, right...

A glimpse of the quality (or not) of some of the type of stuff being thrown up by the wider debate can be had by following the rather fine spoof Twitter feed of Alistair Darling @A_DarlingMP (emphatically NOT the real Alistair Darling). Some of this account's offerings from yesterday:

Alistair Darling‏@A_DarlingMP4h
Wireless is trending. Will we get BBC services on the wireless in a separate Scotland? All evidence points to no. Don't vote YES. #indyref

Alistair Darling‏@A_DarlingMP23h
Facebook is trending. Will we be pushed into the dark ages of MySpace and Bebo in a separate, online Scotland? Don't vote YES. #indyref

Alistair Darling‏@A_DarlingMP23h
Its T in the Park this weekend. Alex Salmond has simply not said whether the event will still happen after separation. Uncertainty. #indyref

@A_DarlingMP My shoes are a UK size 9. What size will they.......no, will I still have shoes in an #indy Scotland? should I ask @theSNP ? Retweeted by Alistair Darling

Thing is, though this is parody, it's not so far beyond the quality of some of what really is coming out of the "No" camp.

rab-k
12th Jul 2013, 14:18
it's not so far beyond the quality of some of what really is coming out of the "Yes" camp

Pardon me, Inspector, but shouldn't your post read "Project Fear (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/one-year-on-will-better-together-change-their-tactics.21402294)" in place of "the Yes camp". :confused:

Kluseau
12th Jul 2013, 14:34
Er... well spotted. I have chaged the "Yes camp" in my post to "No camp". As typos go, that is a spectacular one. Hopefully I'll be clearer which is which come next September. :O

TomJoad
12th Jul 2013, 14:57
Ah I get it now; a unified shoe size system, 1000 years of shared history in foot ware metrology, no need to change shoes at the border. So that's what better together means, the mists have now parted :D