Near miss: parachutists and Bell LongRanger

[John Eacott]

Well, that would have got the adrenalin pumping. Well done to the chap who retrieved it all :ok:


bwU6jAhm66Q

[DirtDiver]

**** would really hit the fan if the shut comes in the tail rotor of main rotor then you would wish you had a parachute.

[Peter3127]

Oooooh, I feel sick watching it. :yuk:

Reminds me of a time in my fixed wing days when flying a Seminole along the Vic Surf Coast under 8/8 cloud to hear "4 canopies away" on the CTAF only to see something black whoosh past about 100 metres away. Would have made a dent ... :eek:

[farsouth]

Scary stuff - especially as the guy doing the untangling almost certainly was not secured to anything. At least if he had fallen and ended up dangling beneath, they might have been able to land him gently, unlike a hang-up in a fixed-wing.

[krypton_john]

f*****g idiots.

[Jarvy]

Makes a change from the seat belts being left dangling!

[Skymong]

If the canopy had gone through the tail rotor, would the pilot have been able to carry out an autorotation or keep control of it?

[Thomas coupling]

What??? Is the quality of posting diluting over the years on Pprune - or am I a GOM?:ugh:

[aa777888]

As a skydiver and PP currently in the middle of a heli add-on, scary stuff indeed! You are trained to "always protect your handles when moving about the aircraft" but obviously stuff happens, and obviously could have lost the entire aircraft, although the jumpers might have made it out OK. Scarier for pilots of "cabin class" aircraft as they don't have to wear a pilot emergency chute and so have no chance when the bits by the tail are totaled.

I was on a Twin Otter jump once when a guy's pilot chute got loose on climb out (skydiver climb out at ~12K AGL or so, not aircraft climb out). I saw it go out the door and center punched the guy through the door and out the airplane. Everyone safe although he had a long descent while the rest of us did freefall. I was worried that he was going to think it was all my fault but by the time he got down I had several other eyewitnesses from the load who were very happy with my actions.

Farsouth: the intrepid jumper who did the untangling was unlikely to be in danger if he had fallen, wearing a parachute as he was. The entire load appeared pretty cool and collected as they solved the emergency, including the unfortunate jumper who realized, with the assistance of the intrepid jumper, that the best course was to release the main chute from the harness (there is a release handle for this) and rely on his reserve chute. This is all relative to my perspective as a skydiver, of course! :)

[farsouth]

aa777888 - thanks for that - I had only watched it once and missed the fact that the guy with the tangled chute had cut away and gone. I was thinking the "untangler" was sorting out his own chute.

[SASless]

I wonder about the Pilot's actions after the fun began?

Having done some Jumping many years ago myself....and have flown Jumpers in both Airplanes and Helicopters as a Pilot...I would have slowed right down.....to minimize the force of the wind on the Extractor Chute....and as a Jumper I would have grabbed the Extractor Chute by its top and thus collapsed the chute and enabling me to control it with minimum force.

This was a very dangerous situation and am really glad it worked out the way it did.....the Jumpers did a good job all things considered.

[nomorehelosforme]

That must have been really scary for all concerned! I wonder if the pilot knew the extend of the potential problem?

[Aesir]

What??? Is the quality of posting diluting over the years on Pprune - or am I a GOM?

@T.C. I thought this was actually a very interesting video, expecially after min 3:00

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z171/Icepicture/parachutist_zps9ecf4c1b.jpg

[Jet Ranger]

Very scary :sad::eek: And very close to ... One reason why we don't do that from B206 JR III anymore !

JR

[maxed-out]

Hmm interesting video

aa777888

As a jumper ( and jump pilot) that incident stinks of a too loose closure loop. Seems as though the bag came out first and then the pilot chute. I always made sure my pin went in really tight to prevent this sort of really nasty malfunction. The mango would have really hit the fan with a FW aircraft running in 80-90 kts

Maybe I should wear a bailout rig from now on.

[RotaryWingB2]

The fault was traced to a too long closing loop.

[rotorrookie]

Totally agree with Aesir, around min 3:00 was the best part of this video :D

[aa777888]

Maxed-out and RotaryWing: I watched the video more carefully in full screen and see what you are saying. The bag is definitely out first. Thanks for pointing that out!

I jump a Racer and as you know Racer's pack tight :) And I never jump without a pin check by somebody who I trust. If somebody offers me a pin check I won't refuse out of courtesy, but I'll still make sure there's one by somebody I trust in addition to that. And a good pin check includes a good bridle routing check, too.

And if I ever decide to do the jump pilot thing I'm definitely wearing a pilot rig, required or not!

[RotaryWingB2]

I jump a VSE infinity, no way my pin or bridle is ever coming out!

[nomorehelosforme]

I guess we are maturing gently? The risks the young pups do seem extreme, apart from military(who have to do it) who on earth would want to jump out of any aircraft?

[RotaryWingB2]

Why on earth would you want to fly a helicopter? :ugh:;)

[nomorehelosforme]

Après Ski seems much less agro!

[MightyGem]

Oh err mother. :eek: Flown a few jumpers, but never had anything like that.

[SASless]

Once had a Jumper's Reserve release just as he was climbing out on to the Wheel and Strut of the Cessna 182.....he had a horrible body position but crikey he left quick! No harm done to anyone.....but it was for sure a "Now you see him.....now you don't ...kind of thing!"!

Happily nothing got hung up or anything fouled by the Chute....probably missed the Elevator by at least six inches.....otherwise it could have very interesting indeed.

I was wearing a back pack emergency rig so I would have had a way out.....except the thought of jumping a single chute doesn't warm my Heart at all.

[nomorehelosforme]

Ok when in doubt take a back up parachute? What on all flights?

[Skymong]

The closing pin was dislodged when the jumper attempted to do up his seatbelt behind his back shortly before exiting the aircraft. The deployment bag fell out first, folloed shortly after by the pilot chute.

[VH-XXX]

I had a guy do that once when I was dropping him out of my powered parachute. She all came untucked, so he grabbed it in his arms and jumped out. He made it safely to earth luckily. Was only 3,000 ft which was a small concern - not much time for a reserve.

[mickjoebill]

So the choices were;

a) another jumper, wearing a parachute which is potentially mis packed like the first one, pops out onto the skid and successfully clears entangled chute.
b) said jumper accidentally releases entangled chute into the tail rotor
c) jumper entagles self in entangled chute.
d) leave well enough alone and land.


Mickjoebill

[topendtorque]

I'm with Aesir TC,

the damsel is clearly in a high state of excitement, an' she hasn't even yumped out yet.

cheers tet.

[Thomas coupling]

Aesir: My apologies I didn't make it clear. I was talking about SkyMong's post not the OP's. :ouch:

[Skymong]

Thomas : In reply to your original post, quite probably, but as I am not familiar with helicopter operations perhaps you could humor my mong question. I have been told everything from the canopy getting shredded, to it taking off the whole empennage.

[nomorehelosforme]

Can you please translate your reply into layman terms?

[Adroight]

No one knows what would have happened until the canopy released but my guess is that it would certainly have removed the tail rotor and possibly the entire tail section. The C of G imbalance alone would then have ensured loss of control.

[RotaryWingB2]

Inflated canopies have removed entire empennages from fixed wing AC in the past.

[Skymong]

The closing pin holds the parachute closed; inside is the deployment bag which holds the folded parachute canopy. In a normal opening sequence the pilot chute, a small drogue, is released first which removes closing pin and then pulls out the deployment bag, the canopy the inflates after coming out of the deployment bag, or d-bag.

In this instance the closing pin was knocked out shortly before the jumper exited; this allowed the deployment bag to drop out of the container, you can see it trailing behind the jumper around the 0:08 sec point, the pilot chute was then pulled out by the d-bag and you see this also catch on the skid, after that the canopy started to come out of the d-bag and start to inflate.

[Thomas coupling]

Sky"mong" they would all have died if that had gone thru the tail rotor! Simples.

The easiest way around this would have been to have two way comms between back and front seat and them asking the pilot to come to the hover while they reeled the canopy in.

Absolute mongs the lot of them.....................:ugh:

[RotaryWingB2]

TC that's very offensive to those concerned, and to me as a experienced parachutist.

Do you know they weren't talking to the pilot? Do you know exactly what was going on?

If the pilot had of brought the AC into the hover, then lost the tail rotor, what chance recovery? At least with a bit of forward speed there was some chance.

The young lad who had the problem was not very experienced, and he f*cked up, no doubt. But what happened next is a credit to the guy on the step and the actions he took.

Other than the canopy not falling out of the container in the first place, this couldn't have ended better, so keep your uninformed opinions to yourself.:mad:

[nomorehelosforme]

Chill out guys!

[SASless]

TC,

Do explain why coming to a "Hover" at such altitude would be the exact right answer? Do you think LTE might have been an issue if that had been tried? Would the aircraft have run into a risk of Vortex Ring State if that had been tried?

I assume you worked out the Performance Data for the Flight, had balanced the Aircraft Course and Heading against the Winds Aloft for that Height and all that before making your comment....right?

Would the induced flow of air moving vertically through the Rotor System work to lessen the air flow over the Extractor Chute or would it have created a different set of problems?

Do tell us how you would have taken charge of the situation?

[aa777888]

The young lad who had the problem was not very experienced, and he f*cked up, no doubt. But what happened next is a credit to the guy on the step and the actions he took.

Other than the canopy not falling out of the container in the first place, this couldn't have ended better, so keep your uninformed opinions to yourself.

I've got to go with RotaryWingB2 on this much of it.

As an experienced skydiver I can honestly say, for better or worse, that I would have taken the same actions if I was in charge of the load. It is in the nature of those who skydive, particularly those who would take a leadership role in a skydiving context, to want to solve any given problem and emerge victorious. And it is drilled into us during skydiving instruction that an uncontrolled canopy deployment inside or immediately outside the aircraft could result in the loss of the aircraft and all in it. So I know exactly how "the guy on the step" felt and what his motivations were, having nearly experienced the same thing he did as I noted in my previous post in this thread. To that end, if I was in that helicopter I would have done whatever I could have to control that loose canopy.

With the benefit of perfect hindsight and the ability to study the video multiple times in detail, if I was "that guy" I would a) definitely had jumper #1 cut away in exactly the same fashion, b) gather in what I could, c) wish I had the presence of mind to get one of the other jumpers on the load to ask the pilot to slow down to the extent practical and d) perhaps settle for merely controlling the mess as opposed to completely pulling it into the cabin (I can tell you my heart was in my throat the couple of times that pilot chute inflated as he disentangled it).

As a budding helicopter pilot I can say that I'd make the trade-off of coming to a hover (if possible) in order to facilitate retrieving the canopy vs. maintaining sufficient forward speed to deal with a possible catastrophic LTE, particularly because the risk of such a catastrophe would be greatly lessened by coming into a hover and allowing the skydivers in the ship to more easily solve the problem. Perhaps that is more reflective of my static line jumpmaster experience (argh, I just carbon dated myself :}) as I'm used to working on a step and hauling static line deployment bags back into aircraft than it is of my nascent helicopter experience, but nevertheless I stand by it.

I showed my wife, also a skydiver, the video and, after she exclaimed :mad: her immediate response was to cheer on the guy on the step and make the appropriate scary noises every time the pilot chute almost got loose. If the ship didn't have so much forward speed that pilot chute would not been nearly as exciting.

[pilot and apprentice]

Well done I'd say. They kept their heads and solved the problem. Arguing about whether it was the best solution is something we do only to help better prepare for or prevent a repeat.

AA777888, please remember that there are a lot of options between cruise and hover. LTE, downwash, high power demand, and the fact that a true hover at several thousand feet above the ground is impossible to accomplish make an attempt to do so very dangerous. With no usable references (too far away) it is all too easy to start sliding rear or sideward and, as SAS said, an imperceptible descent could become VRS in a flash.

Slow to a minimum controllable airspeed to reduce the wind strength and let the folks in the back do what they need to.

And, just me and my opinion, but I'd rather fly the no tail rotor autorotation down than try to jump out of a jetbox in an auto and look up at those blades!

Aesir, I agree about the best section of video.

[Hughes500]

Not sure what speed the pilot was flying at, but most skydives want me to slow Down to min few speedos they can hang on .the skids. He certainly seemed .to be going quite quick although it can be deceptive

[aa777888]

P&P--agreed! You expressed it better than I did.

Hughes500--a helicopter jump is more of an amusement park ride to jumpers as opposed to the normal elevator service. Something to put in the jump logbook, a different flight adventure, and there is often the desire to experience a zero/low speed exit that is not possible with a regular, fixed wing jumpship. Zero/low speed exits are more challenging as the lack of relative wind makes body control more difficult. They are also the only exits that provide a momentary sensation of falling as the acceleration to terminal is not nearly as pronounced when the jump merely consists of changing one's vector from say 80KN forward to 100KN (approx. terminal) downwards.

[Thomas coupling]

Wrong a/c wrong passenger complement, wrong recovery procedure.

The damn a/c was a jet box with about as much LTE as a robbo. Everyone in the trade knows that Jet boxes have had their fair share of LTE issues in the past hence wrong a/c for that altitude and that AUM.
Second - too many 'amateur's' in the back of the cab. Would love to have seen the load chart for that pre launch.
Three might be mistaken but NEVER saw anyone talking to the pilot just a series of F words and frenetic activity.
Four - 'most' not all but most skydivers haven't a :mad: clue what helos are all about and are more bother than the worth of it.
Five - a full exposed cabin is asking for trouble with amateurs.

Solution:

Use a 350 if you can't use a fenestron a/c or a notar - no issues with LTE or HOGE or any TR issues. Door control in these cabs is far superior and makes sure the PILOT is in charge and not the morons in the back.

A very thorough brief about cabin management and emergencies before getting airborne and constant comms en route.

IF this situation had then happened in my situation (though I doubt if the ingredients would have manifested themselves due to the above), Pax give pilot a running commentary. Bring cab to a hover (or reduce fwd wind flow to a minimum and brief "attached" moron to climb out onto skids to recover canopy without 60+kts of jet wash blowing it backwards into the exposed tail. Of course this wouldn't have been a problem with the fenestron/notar would it?

Agreed, the guy doing the retriving was on the ball but it was AFTER the morons got into the situation in the first place.

FFS guys - let's not defend the indefensible let's get it right FIRST time round eh?

SAS: stop waffling!

[topendtorque]

all jokes aside T C I'm with you, It's not allowed in my ops man - fullstop.

[SASless]

TC.....

SAS: stop waffling!

When you start posting in a polite manner.....I will stop poking you with a sharp stick to elicit a useful response from you.

You might take note of P&A, AA, and RW.....they get it.....you don't....as usual.

What Altitude was the Jet Box at?

What fuel load did it have?

What was the OAT?

What was the Weight of the Aircraft at Take Off?

When does LTE become an issue for the Jet Ranger?

[John Eacott]

TC,

Have you operated a 206 or 206L (this event was from a LongRanger, not a jetbox) on drops? I've never found it to be short of TR authority so I'd disagree with your assertions there, but jumpers generally need very close control. The driver's side doors should never come off, all jumps from the one side (away from the pilot) to ensure lateral CG isn't put at risk.

Like this, from an N reg R44 :eek:

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5561-2/1063693_382526431857732_579200100_o.jpg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5564-2/1048855_382526548524387_1237975660_o.jpg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5567-2/1065232_382526638524378_951083737_o.jpg

[Skymong]

First I can assure you that one of the other jumpers in the back had comms with the pilot; for whatever reason the pilot chose to keep some forward airspeed. I did not have a chance to talk to the pilot afterwards.

In this event I cannot see how having doors on the aircraft would help, the pilot had cleared us to jump and I had checked the spot.

[SASless]

John Boy.....perhaps it is my Army background which handicaps me.....but I am confused by your statement.....compared to the photo!

all jumps from the one side (away from the pilot) to ensure lateral CG isn't put at risk.

Am I wrong to assume it was a Helmet Cam photo of the two very pretty jumpers taken by a fellow jumper also skid hanging when the photo was taken?

I know you Navy fellas were far brighter than we....you told us that often enough as I seem to recall.....but there would seem to be a slight conflict between your testimony and the evidence. (In both the post and your suggestion about the comparative IQ's of Diggers and Matelots!)

[John Eacott]

It's your Army background :p

I was alluding to the photo as being an example of putting lateral CG at risk. My company's experience was of a similar jump with two jumpers on each skid for a (supposed) synchronised drop, one off each side, step off, don't push, very thoroughly briefed.

So the two on the left pushed themselves off, the two on the right stayed on which added to the pilot's weight put the machine in a roll to starboard. The driver elected to go with the roll rather than risk stressing the mast, and went all the way round at the end of which there were no jumpers left on the right side either.

To this day we have no idea how they missed the blades, and a $5k mast inspection later we re-wrote the ops manual to allow jumpers only to depart from the opposite side to the pilot.

[Fortyodd2]

Skymong:
" I did not have a chance to talk to the pilot afterwards".

Are you actually saying that after a potentially fatal for all concerned incident that you didn't have a full de-brief? that nobody involved had a de-brief?
Even with first hand, on the spot video to work from??

Sounds like a prize winning recipe for a repeat performance.

[SASless]

On the S-58T....the most important part of the Jump was for the Jumpers to remember to shut the door on the way out....as showing up at ABZ with an Open Door would beg questions I did not wish to answer!

[Skymong]

There was a de-brief and written accounts were taken from everyone involved, however the pilot was not around at the same time as me so I didn't get a chance to discuss it with him.

[aa777888]

Skymong: wow, I did not realize you were on the load in question :ouch: No need to answer if you would prefer not to, but which jumper were you in the video?

[aeromys]

Please tell me you were this one....

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z171/Icepicture/parachutist_zps9ecf4c1b.jpg

[maxed-out]

a777888

I agree the initial sensation is great falling out of a RW aircraft. the ultimate was the balloon jumps I did at Eloy in Arizona.

At the end of the day we can all dicuss this till we're blue in the face. Truth is, heli jumps are common all over the place. This jumper couldn't be bothered to make sure his pin was in tight enough. The onus is on him.

I've been involved in the sport since my sixteenth birthday and have jumped a/c with massive prop wash and exit speeds. C130, Antonovs etc. Never had a bag leave my back without me commanding it to.

****e packing.....

[Thomas coupling]

SASless:

Helicopter Safety | Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness [LTE] (http://www.helicoptersafety.org/genericaccident.asp?keyword=LTE)

Rotor & Wing Magazine :: Loss of Tail-Rotor Effectiveness - Bell 206 (http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/what_the_experts_are_saying/rotorcraft_aerodynamics/Loss-of-Tail-Rotor-Effectiveness-Bell-206_75112.html#.Ud27jqxx53c)

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/143383-loss-tail-rotor-effectiveness-recovery-etc.html
Post number #7 (and yours is post number#8.

[Check your PM's].

All in all, there remains no merit in this typical Sunny Sunday afternoon wazzex chucking a couple of adrenalin junkies out the back of the L.
Thank God we weren't reading their obituaries - then everyone would be coming out with all sorts of armchair theories. Well you have it on a plate now because fate stepped in and saved the day - AMATEURS (including the pilot). :mad:

[RotaryWingB2]

TC, you are out of line.

These jumpers were paying customers, the AC was flown within the limitations laid down by the BPA and the CAA. It couldn't happen otherwise.

The young jumper made a mistake, no question, but to label everyone with an 'idiot' caption, only shows you up for what you really are.

You've really ******* tickled my anger gland, but I guess that was your intention.

PS. It's not about adrenalin. Moronic and Ill informed.

[nigelh]

NEVER disagree with TC ... He is our self appointed know all !!!!
But do feel free to bait him ... It's good sport but do expect some dubious pm ,s

[76fan]

"NEVER disagree with TC ... He is our self appointed know all !!!!"

I couldn't agree more.

[SASless]

TC keeps horning in on my turf! Sometimes with him I feel like Jimmy Durante!:E

[DirtDiver]

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/43758015.jpg

[Skymong]

aa777888: I was the one with the helmet cam, not the blonde :)

[DirtDiver]

aa777888: I was the one with the helmet cam, not the blonde
A shame ;) haha

[212man]

Pity the video has gone - any other links to it?

[Skymong]

D-bag out - YouTube