Vulcan aerobatics

[Adrianh]

Hi folks,
I'm just finishing a rc scale model of Vulcan XM607 and am in need of some info regarding the aerobatic capabilities for competition flights. I have found video of Vulcans doing climbing rolls and 1/2 Cuban 8's and wondered if any had flown complete loops or other similar manoeuvres. Any info will be very useful.
Regards
Adrian

[brokenlink]

There is a film (probably on the net somewhere) of the prototype being barrel rolled at Farnborough if that is any help. Doubt a loop would be possible though.

[bingofuel]

Some were looped, but as I understand it, it caused internal damage to the leading edge structure, and then other crews flew the affected aircraft and suffered in flight failures. I believe it caused several losses.

I am sure someone will give a more factual answer soon.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Any aeroplane can be barrel rolled if it is done correctly. Not too dificult I'd have thought in a compact delta like the Vulcan, or Concorde. But a 707, with its long wings and pod engines and very low 'G' limits? Yet that was done by a guy who knew what he was at.

The barrel roll can be a killer; a low 'G' manouver with little airframe stress if done right, but if it goes even a bit wrong the speed and 'G' can build up very quickly. Ideally, the aeroplane should be wings level and fuselage level at the inverted point, with the speed low. The most common mistake (guess how I know) is to arrive at the inverted point pitched down with the wings not level and the speed higher than it should be. The recovery from that is a high 'g' rolling pullout with the speed building throughout and with a MASSIVE height loss. In a non-aerobatic type, either it breaks up or flies into the ground (the latter, even with aerobatic types, is an all to common air show scenario where the roll is necessarily done at low level - I've seen two).

A full loop is fine for light aerobatic aeroplanes, but not usually possible in big heavy aeroplanes due to the speed and 'G' build up in the 4th quarter of the manouver. A roll off the top is preferable for such aeroplanes and there's video of Vulcans and Victors doing this for a 'lob' bomb delivery, but even then I'd think (I don't know, not having heavy aeroplane experience) that the 1st quarter must be flown with care. Can any Vulc or Vic pilots confirm?

[Adrianh]

Hi Folks, Thanks for the replies thus far. it does seem feasible, so hopefully some with experience might enlighten us all.
The rolling manoeuvres are well understood and I've experienced them good and bad when I used to fly gliders and power before a need for insulin curtailed my P1 abilities. I used to watch the TT Canberras from Wyton loop and roll on fairly regular basis when they were operational so the heavier planes of that era seemed capable anyways.

Cheers All
Adrian

[nacluv]

Not a Vulcan, I know, but this Victor K2 seems to have been giving it a good go...

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/kwilson1965/nacluv/Victorroll_zps48055e06.jpg

[Lightning Mate]

Nicely buried nose on that one.

I bet he speeded up the roll rate just after that pic was taken.

[nacluv]

It was captioned as coming over the top of a loop, but as it's not a video it's hard to prove one way or the other!

[Rev1.5]

Not a Vulcan, I know, but this Victor K2 seems to have been giving it a good go...

Looks more like a B1 than a K2 to me!
No refuelling pods and the fin doesn't look K2 either

[Adrianh]

A very nice picture Nacluv, and certainly with an aircraft I would not have thought would have been looped but there you go! There's hope yet.
Adrian

[RedhillPhil]

It IS a B1. The picture was in a book (can't remember the title) that I read some years ago and was entitled "A rare photograph of a an early Victor demonstrating it's manouverability by being looped". The author claimed that the Victor was not only the biggest aircraft - at that time - to have gone through mach 1 but the biggest to have been looped.I always thought that they were wonderfully impressive machines and loved watching them when time allowed as a sprog at Gaydon.

[WH904]

It might have been one of my books as I "rescued" the Victor image from some old Handley Page documents - so it was a copy of a paper copy, hence the poor quality. It's been re-used on the net and in books quite a few times since then.

The aircraft is captured rolling off the top of a LABS half loop. It is indeed a B1 - in fact the only Victor B1 to have carried slipper tanks under the wings.

Vulcans also flew LABS half loops and (as has been said), aircraft were barrel-rolled occasionally. The practise was stopped after only a few years at Farnborough, and eventually Avro were asked (by the RAF) not to roll the aircraft at any appearances, as RAF pilots were trying to perform the same manoeuvre, but with damaging results. As has been said, it had to be rolled carefully with positive-g applied throughout.

Half loops were performed for quite some time though, as part of the Vulcan's nuclear delivery profiles, but as far as I can determine, such manoeuvres had been abandoned by the end of the 1960s.

[john_tullamarine]

Milt spent some time on the test program following his TP course. He tells an interesting tale of a mach tuck event which nearly had them under and back up ...

With any luck he might add some comment to the thread.

A wonderful and entertaining aviation raconteur over dinner ...

[Yellow Sun]

Half loops were performed for quite some time though, as part of the Vulcan's nuclear delivery profiles, but as far as I can determine, such manoeuvres had been abandoned by the end of the 1960s.

This is a myth. A "half loop" was not part of any delivery profile for any of the V-Bombers. There were a couple of deliveries that involved release in a steepish climb, followed by an immediate escape turn at maximum rate. The climb angle was nowhere near the vertical, it was a lot less.

Low Altitude Bombing System (LABS) equipment was never fitted to any operational V-Bomber.

The aircraft were not cleared for "aerobatics" in service use. The Vulcan would produce a tidy barrel roll but "if" it was done it was very rare. The Nav and AE team would be unlikely to share the pilots' enthusiasm to explore the envelope. The aerobatics seen at air displays were almost without exception carried out by manufacturers test pilots and there is a big difference in what you might try at display weights and what is prudent in an operational airframe.

If you use the search function you will find somewhere a lengthy post by Pontius Navigator describing in detail the attack and delivery profiles that were used.

Yellow Sun

[WH904]

Not a complete myth surely? As I understand it, that was pretty-much the standard means of delivery for Red Beard. I assume the practise didn't last very long as Red Beard didn't either. Tony Blackman describes "half loop" manoeuvres in his book quite graphically.

I did say below that the public "aerobatics" (ie- rolls) were not performed by service pilots but only by Avro pilots. Some RAF pilots did it but the RAF put a stop to it and asked Avro to do the same. Ironically, when the request was made, Jimmy H had just flown another barrel roll over Finningley during a visit. Avro did stop rolling and half-looping the Vulcan in public after that, but I know from first-hand interviews that aerobatics still continued away from public scrutiny, chiefly for the amusement of the crews. The rear crew didn't seem to object, in fact one regular Avro flight observer claims that he used to eat his sandwiches while such antics were being performed!

[Senior Pilot]

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[Barksdale Boy]

Yellow Sun is spot on - certainly post-1967.

[Yellow Sun]

Not a complete myth surely? As I understand it, that was pretty-much the standard means of delivery for Red Beard.

Tell you what, until we get it from the horse's mouth; i.e. a squadron pilot who was trained to fly the manoeuvre in a V-Bomber as an element of a standard delivery profile; we'll call it a myth.

Climb - Release - Hard Turn - YES

Climb - Release - Climb to inverted - Roll out on reciprocal - NO

Yellow Sun

[WH904]

If you think my assertion is a myth then that's fine, but it would be nice to have some proof. I try my best to gather research before I write anything and the story (as I understand it) is that the Vulcan, like the Victor, Buccaneer and Canberra (but I found nothing that referred to the Valiant) were expected to fly LABS manoeuvres that were similar to those practised (and demonstrated) by the USAF B-47 crews. Avro test pilots certainly flew such manoeuvres (Tony Blackman can confirm that) as did Handley Page's test pilots (see the photo above). One assumes that the manoeuvres were being practiced for nothing then, if the aircraft was not to be used in this fashion once in squadron service?

[Yellow Sun]

If you think my assertion is a myth then that's fine, but it would be nice to have some proof.

There isn't any proof because it was never an operational procedure. Information relating to Red Beard delivery was in the Vulcan Tactics Manual (cannot recall its correct title) until at least 1972. Training on the weapon had ceased by about 1967 (maybe someone else can provide a more accurate date) but STCASU still had a remit to provide it at short notice until the early 1970s. One can only presume that the option to use Red Beard was retained as an emergency capability until all weapons in the inventory had been dismantled.

One assumes that the manoeuvres were being practiced for nothing then, if the aircraft was not to be used in this fashion once in squadron service?

Blackman refers to to the Roll off The Top on pages 102, 130 and 176 of "Vulcan Test Pilot". He compares to to the B47 Toss Bombing tactic and refers to it as such. However he only relates its execution to display flying and not as the basis to meet a requirement to investigate the feasibilty of an operational tactic based upon it.

If there had ever been any intention to develop a Roll off The Top delivery then the proof would be found by examining BCDU activities in relation to it as well as a whole series of weapon release trials carried out by A&AEE. But, if you look, I think that you might find no more than a Research Branch paper on the subject that was in any event overtaken by events.

I think that the answer to your question about why it was done is because they could.

Yellow Sun

[WH904]

I agree with everything you say. But that isn't to agree that flying "half rolls" was therefore a myth. Granted, it seems to have been much more of a manufacturer's speciality but I think it would be wrong to suggest that service pilots didn't perform them too, even if only for a few years.

I would genuinely be very interested to know if any former V-Force pilots out there can recall just what delivery profiles were flown. It's always been a very difficult issue to clarify (because of the (then) sensitive nature of the subject. Problem is that now it isn't so much of a dark secret, it's so long ago that nobody seems to remember much... or do they? :)

[Yellow Sun]

I would genuinely be very interested to know if any former V-Force pilots out there can recall just what delivery profiles were flown. It's always been a very difficult issue to clarify (because of the (then) sensitive nature of the subject. Problem is that now it isn't so much of a dark secret, it's so long ago that nobody seems to remember much... or do they?

It's not difficult to find, it's all been posted here on Pprune in the past. There is a short summary on page 32 of Bonnor's presentation to the RIN (http://www.rin.org.uk/Uploadedpdfs/ItemAttachments/Norman%20Bonnor%20-%20presentation-web.pdf) and further information may be found in the RAF Historical Society Journal No 26. (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk.nyud.net/documents/Research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-26-Seminar-the-RAF-and-Nuclear-Weapons-1960-98.pdf)

You may also wish to read this (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?74152-V-FORCE-Questions).

Yellow Sun

[Milt]

A TP who went on to experimental test flights on Concord once invited me to look after the controls on the right side of a Boscombe Down Vulcan Mk1. This was my first Vulcan flight.

At the top of the first climbing barrel soon after take off I just had to object to him not having warned me what was about to happen. His reponse was -"I just wanted to show you how effective those 4 sections of aileron are. Handing over - try one" That was a WOW!!

The Vulcan handled better than most fighters of the era particularly up high and always felt very rugged. I found the Victor to be much too bendy for my liking and had little inclination to ever go inverted.

Previously as an Examiner of Airmen I was checking out a Squadron Instrment Rating Examiner IRE wearing a hood in a Lincoln and thinking what sort of an unusual attitude can I put this big lumbering machine into from which he may not be able to recover.

At a safe height I applied max power and pulled up into about a 75 degree nose up and as speed rapidly decreased pulled the throttles on Nos 1 and 2. as the yaw rapidly developed "Handing Over" followed. There was a lengthy period of consternation as we entered an immelman upside down and a perplexing look from the pilot in the left seat. I must have had one of those looks also as I applied balanced power whilst gently letting the nose come down through the horizon then slowly completing what must have looked like a semi horizontal spin. At no time was there anything close to max g for a rolling pullout.

The secret is you need an aircraft having a high rate of roll at adequate speed to be able to safely barrel any aircraft and never forget the huge increase in loading on the wing having max down aileron. Rolling pullouts often end in a heap.

[lakerman]

I agree with Yellow Sun, I had a couple of years on the canberra at Laarbruch and having attended a LABS course my first week at Laarbruch I used to test the system quite often during maintenance inputs. When I left Laarbruch I was posted to Coningsby on the Mk2 Vulcans and they did not have LABS fitted to the aircraft, this was July 1963 until November 65

[WH904]

Thanks Laker that certainly helps to establish that LABS manoeuvres were certainly off the agenda by 1963. Think that pretty-much rules out the B.Mk.2 completely then!

[Treble one]

I am pretty sure that there is a video about on You Tube showing Tony Blackman looping a Vulcan (commentary by Raymond Baxter IIRC).

There are however, FAR better qualified people than me on this thread, so I will leave it at that.

I have certainly seen Roly Falk's barrel roll at Farnborough on there.

TO

[wub]

This might be the video you referred to:

Vulcan SBAC - YouTube

[LXXIV]

Just came across this in Journal 53 (2012) of the RAF Historical Society:
THE AVRO VULCAN - MAKING IT WORK by Tony Blackman, last sentence, p78:
"I mentioned Farnborough at the start of this talk and so it is appropriate to close by mentioning that in 1958 with the Mk 1 developing the engines for the Mk 2 with 16,000 lb thrust per engine it was possible to do two rolls off the top, one after the other after a standing start and then land in 3 minutes and 19 seconds. A glorious way to spend a week."
LXXIV

[Treble one]

The video you embedded was not the one but the manoeuvre was similar if not the same. The video I was thinking of was in B&W.

Many thanks however
TO

[Tony the tiger]

Fantastic video, brings back a few memories from the dim and distant past.
Are there any Vulcans still flying?

[redsetter]

Regarding delivery of Red Beard. Worth noting that there were I believe two versions of the weapon: a free-fall ballistic version and a LABS version.

[Flybiker7000]

"Half loops"!? Isn't that what for a century have been called an Immelmann?

This week i saw a TV program about the british jets and remember some details relevant to this talk:
- The rolling and other on Farnborough was simply rivalry between HP and Avro - Once the one had started the other had to at least do the same!
- After the soviet's had shown that they were capable to shoot-down the U2, nuke delivering was changed to low-level inflight, wich showed to stress the airframe of the Victor too much, only leaving the Vulcan for the job!

[27mm]

IIRC, the Valiant was also tasked for LL...