PIC or not to PIC?

[Metlik]

Good day gentleman's,
I have a question concerning instructional time for FI(A):

if you are flying with the student, who is almost ready for skill-test, usually you are not touching the controls, right? So, that means that the student can count this time as PIC. For example from 2 hours of flying he can write in log-book 1:50 as s PIC (or even all 2 hours). I'm right? What in this case will put in their log-book FI? Also of 2 hours as s PIC or not?
Another situation: student flying solo (for example 0:30 for circuits). This time is counted into FI log-book as instructional time? As well as PIC?
Would appreciate your help, maybe some reference to regulations?
Thank you in advance.

[Whopity]

Your question is not entirely clear as you say "Instructional time for FI(A)"; does that mean you are teaching instructors? If so, the answer may will depend on the regime you operate under. Under EASA a FI Course is flown Dual apart from those exercises flown as Mutual, where 2 students fly together, normally the one acting as the instructor logs the flight as PIC.

If however you are talking about an instructor teaching a student pilot, then as the student does not have a licence. they can only log PIC when flying solo.

student flying solo (for example 0:30 for circuits). This time is counted into FI log-book as instructional time? As well as PIC? No, if the student is flying solo, there is no instructor on board and the instructor cannot log flight time if he is not flying. The instructor is supervising and may count this supervision towards the removal of an EASA "Restriction" but it cannot be logged as flight time.

If you are flying as an instructor then you are always PIC.

[Rithalic]

Lets assume you are teaching someone without a Licence. Lets not pussy foot around, first of all if you are an instructor you should already know this.

Unless you are training a student on an Integrated course and SPIC time is allowed, you are teaching an Ab Initio student, therefore any time you are in the aircraft you are PIC, therefore the time they log is Dual (P/UT), you log as PIC (P1).

If the Student is flying solo then you are not in the aircraft and therefore you cannot be solo manipulator of the controls and cannot be PIC. The Student is the PIC and you cannot log anything. You might still get paid for it of course depending on your employer.

And should you be an FIC as per the previous post then A you should not be an FIC and B please surrender your licence to teach other instructors ASAP. That stands for as soon as possible in case this wasn't covered in your obviously extensive training.

[Metlik]

You right, I mean flights as FI with students within PPL(A) program. So, when I am in the aircraft, it will be my PIC time. If I did't touchimg the controls, my student can log this time as SPIC. I'm right?
Thank you!

[S-Works]

Jesus, why do we let the least experienced teach our new generation?

Who taught your FI course? You should have covered all if this.

When you are in the aircraft with a student you are PIC, the student is PUT regardless of whether you touch the controls or not. The fact that you can sit and not touch the controls means that they have at least learnt something!

[Whopity]

If I did't touchimg the controls, my student can log this time as SPIC. I'm right?No, SPIC can only be logged by Integrated course students when flying IFR; that is how they gain IFR time without a rating.

Under EASA all schools will have to have an Operations Manual, this will clearly tell you what you can and cannot do.

[BillieBob]

Under EASA all schools will have to have an Operations Manual, this will clearly tell you what you can and cannot do.Not if the two that I've seen are anything to go by! Clear is not a word that appears to be included in either author's vocabulary.

[2close]

Metlik,

In which country are you teaching and to which syllabus?

If you are teaching to an EASA syllabus for the PPL(A) then it is exactly as stated above.

When FI(A) and Student are in the aircraft together:
FI(A) = PIC (Pilot in Command)
Student = PUT (Pilot Under Training)

If the student is on supervised solo flights (Minimum 10 hours required during 45 hours of course):
Student = PIC
FI(A) records 0

You can ONLY have ONE PIC at any time.

The only exception to this is the Skill Test when the:
Examiner = PIC
Student = PICUS (Pilot in Command Under Supervision) for PASS
Student = PUT (Pilot Under Training) for FAIL or PARTIAL PASS

Hope that makes things clear. :)

[Metlik]

2close,

EASA country, instructing for PPL(A). Thank you for your answer, now I'm clear!

Might be here a different opinions on this from different CAAs from different countries? Or this EASA rules applied without deviations between EASA members?

[Rithalic]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Trim Stab]

The only exception to this is the Skill Test when the:
Examiner = PIC
Student = PICUS (Pilot in Command Under Supervision) for PASS
Student = PUT (Pilot Under Training) for FAIL or PARTIAL PASS

That is correct under UK CAA regulations, but not universal elsewhere.

In France, for example, the PIC is always the most qualified pilot on board (even if not in a pilot seat!). Thus during a skills test, whether the student passes or not, the PIC is always either the FI(A) or FE(A).

There was one rather embarrassing incident when a DA42 was landed wheels up during an IR skills test. On board were the student, his instructor (in RHS), the examiner (in one rear seat), and an examiner of examiners (in the other rear seat). The examiner of examiners was considered to be the PIC, and so had to accept responsibility for the incident.

[BillieBob]

The French position is not in accordance with EU law (no change there). The PIC is defined in the Aircrew Regulation as "the pilot designated as being in command and charged with the safe conduct of the flight". The Air Ops Regulation places the responsibility for designating the PIC solely on the operator of the aircraft, who could designate the least experienced pilot if he chose to do so and said pilot was appropriately rated.

Mind you, the UK practice of allowing a successful test to be recorded as PICUS is also not in accordance with the Aircrew Regulation. FCL.010 defines PICUS as a co-pilot acting under supervision and a 'co-pilot' is in turn defined in terms of operating a multi-pilot aircraft. It is not possible, under EU law, to be a co-pilot or, therefore to log PICUS on a single-pilot aircraft.

Doncha just love these overpaid numpties in Cologne?

[Whopity]

It is not possible, under EU law, to be a co-pilot or, therefore to log PICUS on a single-pilot aircraft. FCL 050 says:The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority. The UK CAA has specified in CAP 804 Section 1 Part E Para 9 J:

Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a EASA or CAA Authorised Examiner (other than case K.

PICUS for successful Test P/UT for unsuccessful test (including partial pass)

[212man]

Beyond words!

[BillieBob]

Quite true, Whopity, but one might think it reasonable to assume that the manner established by the authority (I have difficulty with the word 'competent' where the UK CAA is concerned) would be in accordance with the Regulation.