60 Minutes (Australia) investigation Robinson

[belly tank]

To be aired on Sunday night 1930

Sixtyminutesv2 - Video Index (http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/videoindex.aspx)

[Nigel Osborn]

I guess the 60 minutes crew are such experts.....

[talkpedlar]

.. you don't need to be much of an expert to see where lives are being lost un-necessarily.... this b:mad:y issue should have been sorted long ago..

just IMHO of course..

TP

[Adroight]

Comeon Talkpedlar - there has not been a Robinson accident for at least a week...

[CRAN]

Is it possible to watch the program online from outside of Oz, say in the UK?

CRAN:)

[JimBall]

"The most deadly way to see Australia" says the promo. I'm sure RHC's lawyers will enjoy tackling that one. This isn't news - it's sensationalism and is about getting ratings. How fitting that the online promo is preceeded by a chocolate cake commercial.

Wonder what else they've cooked up?

[Hughes500]

Jim

In this day and age I m sure that the tv maker's lawyers have been over consulted !!!

[Pittsextra]

Things taking a long time isn't new is it?

FAA to Airbus: Install rudder warning after fatal crash (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2012/11/19/airbus-rudder/1707421/)

[Hairyplane]

As previously stated, I believe it irresponsible in the extreme to fly innocent passengers in a machine that hasn't got bladder tanks. We pilots know the risks, they don't.

I love my R44. However, the irrefutable evidence of fatal post-crash fires in otherwise survivable accidents made the case for me and I had it done.

We can all screw up. The heli is very easy to fly but also very unforgiving of mistakes. What we need to avoid is a mistake developing into a horrific disaster.

Just my thoughts...

H

[SuperF]

So Hairy Plane, I guess that you wouldn't want to fly in an AS350?

[Pittsextra]

What I don't get is the attitude of some who endless defend those involved in aviation perhaps through some false loyalty. People / companies make errors its how you deal with those errors that count?

[bellfest]

SuperF... Seen many 350's burst into flame on impact? Your's run on Avgas do they bro....?

R44 is a decent rocket but they don't have a good track record. A mod that was a long time overdue...

[mickjoebill]

So Hairy Plane, I guess that you wouldn't want to fly in an AS350?

Begs the question, why not fit bladders to AS350s?

Not enough people killed in otherwise survivable accidents?
AS350 cabin frequently collapses trapping those inside.

Wearing a helmet plus using bladders would reduce fatalities.


Mickoebill

[Ag-Rotor]

Saw a video of an AS350 hitting his sling strop in NZ and the pilots seat broke out of the helicopter.....not much chance of any one surviving a Heli crash if the pilot and his seat is the first thing to break and he exits the aircraft........

[Hairyplane]

Hi SuperF,

I would love a go in one! I'm in Warwickshire. Land at the house, nice lunch guaranteed. we could also nip across to a nearby airstrip for some open-cockpit fun.

My post related specifically to the petrol-driven R44. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

HP

[SuperF]

Hairy, sorry mate, but I'm 24 hrs by 747 from you and I don't have a 350. Would a 204 or 206 do?

Bellfest, havent heard of one running on avgas, although im sure if u asked around someone could do a mod for you. I think the 350 that went down in Switzerland a couple of days ago burnt to the ground, and one a year or so ago in oz did the same, 355 from memory.

My point was solely that lots of people that fly 350's are happy to point at the 44 and say its a death trap as it doesn't have bladders, when other helicopters don't as well.

I would think that the location of the fuel tanks could have something to do with post crash fires. Even if it remains upright, you puncture the tank, there will be trouble. Same situation in most other helicopters leaves a puddle on the ground.

And the guy in the 350 in NZ was doing utility work without a helmet!


Ps I don't fly 350's, they are made of plastic, there are too many blades and they turn the wrong way.

[ericferret]

A lot of turbines can run on petrol of one type or another, but the penalties make it non economic as does the cost. It's a get you home feature.
Hughes 300's metal tanks and Bell 47's.

To expand a huge number of Cessna aircraft have metal tanks or wet wings as do virtually all airliners. If it's bladder tanks or nothing we are all going by boat!!!!!!

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Well, all helicopters will burn if crashed hard enough even those with crash-worthy,self sealing tanks. There's nothing wrong with the Astar tank system, I've seen some extreme impacts leave the tank undamaged. (Like flying flat out into the side of a hill for example).
When the manufacturer tells operators to change their tanks, maybe the operators should make it a priority.
Not all of it but some of this has been self inflicted.

[That lights normal!]

Some people seem to be missing the point (with comparisons to AS350s, Cessna's, etc)

Fact: the R44 has two aluminum containers filled (to varying degrees) with Avgas. Between these thin walled "cans" is mounted a high speed rotating can opener (flex plate). Any disruption to the drive shaft (TR or MR strike for eg) will almost certainly result in both tanks being sliced open. Below this setup is a reciprocating engine which has 2 (duplicated systems) for reliably creating sparks (magnetos).

Fact: numerous people have burnt to death following accidents in the hover. (More than one person has been seen to have survived the crash and burnt trying to escape the wreckage)

Fact: photos exist of an R44 that went through the "can opener sequence" but no fuel escaped due the bladder tanks fitted.

Carry on.

TLN

[bellfest]

Nicely stated TLN...

[Hairyplane]

Well put TLN,

Add the original rotor brake warning light switch as the ignition source just in case the mags etc don't do the job (the later switch, swapped with the mod, is described as 'waterproof' AFAICR (?)) and a simple 'Oops sorry I've broke your heli' can likely turn into a disaster in an unmodded machine.

A good friend of mine who learned to fly at the same time as me and went on to become a training captain for one of the budget airlines received horrific burns in a light aircraft crash a few years back. Quite how he survived we will never know. He was on TV recently in a highly moving documentary. He is still having skin grafts.

I love my R44, my second machine. The bladder tank mod, carried out by HeliAir at Wellesbourne ( I wouldn't let anybody else touch it) was done quickly and efficiently. If you still have the old tanks, give them a call, book your machine in and call in on the way for a coffee here. I'm only 5 minutes away.

Get it done. You know it makes sense.

Hairy

[lurker999]

Lots of human interest side with the families of those who have died. I am ok with this those people have a right to have their stories told.

Not very technical, but not everyone watching is a LAME so what do you expect.

Quite damning of CASA, for not enforcing that the mod be carried out until early 2013. Anyone reading the aus forums would not be shocked that CASA appear not to be fully on the ball or just straight up incompetent.

Quite damning of robinson. Who refused to comment. Who sent out a directive that those flying in r44s wear helmets, fireproof suits and goggles. ( I am a little disbelieving here, if they did that, ughhh).

Pointed out that the 15m test for fuel tanks came in after production started but didn't understand why the post reg r44s were not required to meet that std. A fair question, you can argue both sides of that one.

That was most of it.

[as350nut]

Robinson Safety Notice SN 40 refers wearing nomex suit,gloves etc as per show. Not sure if it was really to advise those that have high risk flights, mustering etc or for all pilots but it could be read either way.

[topendtorque]

Hmm, SN 40 does point to brief of all occupants.

[John Eacott]

Whilst we should not expect better of 60 Minutes it is galling to have watched a programme which set out to tell only part of the story. The 60 Minutes Facebook site is now full of outraged moaning Minnies cancelling R44 flights around Australia: I pity the operators taking calls this morning. Hardly more than a passing mention in the report about CASA grounding non modified R44s since April.

Does anyone else see the humour in the Nine Network taking their traffic report feeds from R44 Newscopters? :hmm:

[as350nut]

Yes well I was trying to be kind and find a positive where there is not much of that in evidence. :cool:I also have a view that the so called drop test for the tank was unfair in that the tank doesn't fly around on its own but in fact has skids under it and a frame around it. Having said that the results of a crash are self evident and its probably ok just as a demo of how they might react to a hit. I believe there is more damage coming from the flex plate assembly flogging the bejesus out of everything when the tail departs that is the bigger problem. Overall it was hard to find too much inaccuracy in the report though except, that no one mentioned that you have to crash first before there is a problem, no crash , no burn.

[TunaBum]

Yes nice post TLN. Interesting all the off topic discussion about other aircraft etc... - an indication that theres not much to discuss about the 60 mins story. I think the facts are self evident.

I understand that Robinson are "self insured". I also understand they have settled three claims from Ivor's accident for millions (well 2 for millions, one for less) - out of court. I think this settlement is the tip of the iceberg, and I wonder how Robinson will survive this. Especially once the remaining cases go through the US courts.....

Perhaps the pursuit of US settlements will save CASA from legal proceedings here in Aus to some degree.

Hmmmm....

TB :ugh:

[airbornesyd]

Who distributes the R44 here in Aus? I don't think Robinson has an office here based on 60Mins ambush yesterday!

[TunaBum]

Ambush - LOL.
I think the reporter stated they were in California?

Edit - Helibiz & Heliflite distribute here.

TB ;)

[Hairyplane]

I see on the 60 Minute website that there are a couple of related videos. When I select one, the ads play and I then get a 'your video will play after the ads.'
Nothing happens. Any ideas?
I do have a new IMac and am on a steep learning curve with it...Finger trouble?
All the best
HP

[mhale71]

The 60 Minutes Facebook site is now full of outraged moaning Minnies cancelling R44 flights around Australia:

John, I didnt see any of that here: https://www.facebook.com/60minutes but facebooks formatting is a bit weird so i might be missing something.

[John Eacott]

mhale,

Yes, try this page (https://www.facebook.com/60Minutes9) instead, this (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=485833764819277&set=a.216400335095956.48541.206832076052782&type=1&theater) discussion :ok:

[SuperF]

Hairy, regarding the iMac, I've found it helps to ask the kids!

[topendtorque]

bit remiss of me to never have studied the R44 crash reports in detail. do they report tanks ruptured or do they report how tanks ruptured with a sequence.

R22 flex plates are now all much stronger than the initial items, so very rare to see flex plate breakage.

Now i know nothing at all about lightweight body armour etc, plenty of people here would, whats wrong with glueing some strips of such material in the high risk areas which will still remain even with bladders?

seems easy enough to contain turbine blades nowadays doesn't it?

cheers tet

[Hughesy]

I for one, will never fly in a Robinson again. Pilot or Passenger.
Too many friends and colleagues lost due to this product.
How long would it take for a car to be pulled if lots were killed in it? Just saying.

[Hairyplane]

Hi Hughsey.

So sorry to hear of your lost friends.

Are you able to post links to the Accident Reports?

I for one, as an R44 owner am very keen to learn from them.

Best

HP

[Kiwi500]

Was just thinking the same myself. Either some basic plates or something bonded to the tanks to contain the flex plate and at least deflect or absorb the initial turning inertia, or all of it preferably? Combined with bladder tanks it would have to be steps in the right direction!

[Jack Carson]

Hairyplane, the following provides a very substantial listing of R-44 mishaps.

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > ASN Aviation Safety Database results (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?AcType=R44)

[as350nut]

I know the flex plates were re designed at one stage some time ago, after a couple broke in flight in Australia (r22's). I don't know of recent problems with that. What I was referring to is hitting or losing the tail/boom which acts on the short shaft to allow it to rotate in to the inside section of the tank. I agree with others here even with the fuel bladder it wouldn't hurt to have something magic to protect the tank.

[Hairyplane]

Thanks Jack. I have studied it. Anything like this is a 'must read' for pilots.
I'm hoping that Hughsey will post specific links.
All the best
HP