(FSS) Flying Selection Squadron

[FMM910]

Met an ex member of FSS, Swinderby yesterday who said it was the best, most cost effective Training System the RAF ever had. Anyone out there who was a staff member or knew how it worked?

[212man]

I'm sure he won't mind me quoting him, but Dan Winterland posted this on another thread:

The Flying Selection Squadron was formed for flying grading in about 1978 aimed for pilots who had done less than 30 hours flying (i.e hadn't done a RAF flying scholarship or held a PPL). The candidates did a 14 hour course with tests at 7 and 14 hours. Unlike the Navy course, they didn't go solo. In 1985, it was decided to give the students a 65 hour course which included solo time, IF, nav and formation. They then went to Cranwell to do the short course the graduate students from UASs did. This was some 30 hours shorter than the full basic course, all flown on the JP5. In about 1988, the experimental long course on the Chipmunk was made official and the unit was renamed the Elementary Flying Trining Squadron. The course had reduced to 54 hours and the students went on to any of the three FTSs, but still doing the short course. The last course was in early 1993 and I could check my logbook to see who was the last taildragger trained student. But I can confirm that I was the last QFI in the RAF to train on a taildragger.

[sisemen]

Must have been a brilliant and effective system - it stopped the tosser who stole my wife from becoming a pilot :ok:

[High_Expect]

Awkward......

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A former colleague told me he passed FSS by hardly looking out of the window at all. He just watched the stick as the instructor demo'ed something, then replicated the movements.

He subsequently became a FJ display pilot, though he was looking out of the window by then.

[Flugplatz]

fox 3

Class! :D

well, that made me laugh:)

[Background Noise]

F3 - that could be me! Not sure I am your ex-colleague but all of that applies equally well.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a297/stickshaker/FJ%20training%20and%20Hawks/DSC_0416.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Love the packed lunch stowed in your leg pocket :ok:

[Background Noise]

That's not me in the photo - I was taking it. We didn't get those gucci new helmets, we had g helmets and shells.

[CoffmanStarter]

Yep ... Mk1a Outer ... silver :ok:

Surprised that the head could be turned wearing that modern clobber ... especially in the front cockpit of a Chipmunk :eek:

Certainly the old Mk2 with it's G Bar weren't supposed to be used in a Chipmunk ISTR.

[Dora-9]

An intriguing photo indeed - the second variant of the Red/White/Lt Grey scheme, but with red wingroot panels (they should be grey with this scheme).

[Background Noise]

Dora - Like this:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a297/stickshaker/FJ%20training%20and%20Hawks/DSC_0417.jpg

[Dendmar]

A crowd of oldies at FSS!

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk296/Dendmar/FSSc1983Copy.jpg

[Background Noise]

Any more? Most of my 14 sorties were with Willis and Turner, one each with Statham and Robinson. Not that I recognise any of those in the photo.

[FMM910]

FSS Reprobates 1983

Any names & stories?

[maximo ping]

I reckon that Pete Frame and Dennis Winterbottom are both in there; they were both still present in 1987 when I did EFTS, although most of the ac still had the FSS markings on.

[maximo ping]

Subsequent conversations with QFIs who had been on the staff during both incarnations of the unit revealed that they, unsurprisingly, far preferred the EFTS version. FSS forced them to assess only, with no time for any actual instruction.

[maximo ping]

I'll also take a punt on John Lloyd, and the chap 5 in from the left looks a lot like Ron Powell, subsequently boss of ULAS. Not sure if he spent any time at Swinderby though...

[just another jocky]

I went through FSS as a student in 1983. Monkey-see, monkey-do with little/no teaching at all. It seemed to me to be a way to weed out those who had managed to slip through OASC but were never going to master flying.

Cheap & fun. Only ground-looped the old girl on trip 14! :}

My Friend Fred Has Hairy Balls! :E

[aw ditor]

Mixture Fuel Flaps Harness Hood Brakes ?

[just another jocky]

Correct Sir! :ok:

[good finish]

Was the teaching on the chipmunk to set some brake on the downwind leg particularly if a crosswind?

[Background Noise]

It wasn't taught on the original FSS/grading course in 82.

[Dora-9]

Background Noise:

Yes you're correct, the colour scheme with the red outer wing panels and elevators SHOULD have grey wing roots. Oddly enough, in another photo supplied by Dan Winterland of FSS Chipmunks I reckon the front aircraft (WD310/H) has red wing roots too; note how the wing leading edge/fuselage junction differs from the aircraft behind:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/Simon80-85108_zps6112989e.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/Blithering/media/Simon80-85108_zps6112989e.jpg.html)

Why the fuss about red wingroots (apart from me being pedantic)? These indicated the first variant of the Red/White/Light Grey scheme in which the Chipmunk had red wingtips, leading edges and wingroots plus grey elevators. For reasons that totally escape me this scheme was short-lived (1970-1973) and seemingly confined to 2 FTS Church Fenton.

Compare these with your second posted photo (all are 2 FTS aircraft except for WD347, a visitor from from CFS):

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/lineupat2FTS.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/Blithering/media/lineupat2FTS.jpg.html)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/2FTSPAIR.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/Blithering/media/2FTSPAIR.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

GF ... I think you refer to establishing Min Diff on the brakes (typically 3 notches against full rudder) prior to taxiing so ICON that setting could be applied downwind for landing ... but not a technique used regularly. ISTR that if you needed that level of authority you were close to the XWind limit of 15 Kts and should find another runway :ok:

[BEagle]

These indicated the first variant of the Red/White/Light Grey scheme in which the Chipmunk had red wingtips, leading edges and wingroots plus grey elevators. For reasons that totally escape me this scheme was short-lived (1970-1973) and seemingly confined to 2 FTS Church Fenton.


We had one of the earlier variants on ULAS in 1972. In fact it was the first one in southern England. One day all those who'd been flying solo on the first wave were told to report to the briefing room at cease flying....the CFI was going to Have a Word :confused:

He simply said "You are NOT to indulge in illegal dog fighting! I know who it was who started it, because when you're flying the only red and white Chipmunk in Berkshire, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to find out who you are. DON'T DO IT AGAIN!!"

:ok: It wasn't me, incidentally!

[Dan Winterland]

Non standard wing roots can probably be explained by someone having stood on one and the replacement being stock in the old colour scheme. One FSS aircraft had a silver dope rudder for a while.

The rougues gallery (from L to R):

Dickie Duke, John ?, Al Staham, Roger Cooper, Dennis ?, Pete Frame, ?, Engine, Mike Dutton, ?,?,Dennis Winterbottom, ? (but must have been the adj ans he has a Nav Brevet), ?. The black lab was Dickie Duke's dog - imaginatively named "Duke", no idea about the other dog.

I'm not sure about FSS being that effective as a grading scheme. We had a big book in the office with a record of all the pilots who ever went through FSS/EFTS, the score they acheived on the course and where they ended up. It was quite noticeble that the scores during selection didn't really correalate with where they ended up. Many Harrier pilots only acheived a minimum pass score of 5 at FSS (including at least one Red Arrow) and the one 9 ever awared (the top score) went to someone who ended up on Hercs! The failure rate through FSS was quite high - at least 30% and many of those passing got chopped later on, whereas the pass rate through EFTS was about 85% with subsequent failure being very rare.

Would love to know what happened to that book. It went missing just before EFTS closed!

[blimey]

Duke, Martin, Statham, Thorn were the names in my logbook, with Merv the adj behind the prop.

Blimey (probably a very bare 5 after a recount).

[Dora-9]

Non standard wing roots can probably be explained by someone having stood on one and the replacement being stock in the old colour scheme. One FSS aircraft had a silver dope rudder for a while.
Hi Simon:

I was wondering how long it would take you to post on this thread!

I think this is the most likely explanation, although to achieve the effect shown all three upper wing root panels would have been replaced. What a pity we don't have a photo of the other side! WP980 was with 2 FTS 1971-1974 (where it presumably wore the first variant of the R/W/LG scheme), then placed into storage and re-painted at 27 MU prior to being issued to FSS in 1980 - so it should have had the bog standard (grey wing roots and all) second variation.

Apparently by this stage interchange of mis-matched components wasn't unusual; there are even examples of RAF Chipmunks with RN canopies (oh, the horror of it all). Indeed, although the photo of the 2 FTS line-up can have been taken no later than 1973, if you look closely at WD347 note that it's in the overall LAG scheme but has the canopy frames in silver.

Cheers!

[Wander00]

OK, I give in - what is an RN canopy - how is it different from an RAF one?

[Dora-9]

Painted Light Grey in the mid 80's - and they came from RN stock.

[aw ditor]

Battleship Grey?

[Aerials]

"Merv the adj behind the prop." You mean Merv the swerve! I think that might be Arthur Cattle extreme right. Crikey, t'was a long time ago....

[kintyred]

I went through FSS in December 83 and somehow got the thumbs up. I recall climbing to 5000' on one sortie and managed to knock the vent in the canopy roof wide open just as we reached the top of climb. My poor instructor in the boot couldn't close it and we had to return to earth before he froze to death. I got an extra 20 minutes free flying as a result, such was the scintillating climb performance of the Chippie!
I also recall Merv Astle giving up his "M3" lecture. Money, Money, Money! which informed us how to prise the maximum cash out of the blunties. I seem to remember it invovled marrying some old dear who lived at least 200 miles away so that one could claim additional travel warrants, free messing and had the extra benefit of providing us young bucks with an excuse for swerving the inevitable pressure to marry our current girlfriends! I can now report that next week I celebrate 25 years of happy marriage to my then girlfriend! Nevertheless thanks for all your invaluable advice Merv, I hope that somewhere someone like you is still passing on their experience to the next generation.

[Wander00]

Wednesday took a relative to La Rochelle to catch a Ryanair flight and as I was driving away the hangar door nearest the road was, unusually, open and peeking out was a Chipmunk looking like it was in RAF colours. Anyone know which one it is - is it UK or French registered. To the owner - you can fly over Le Pinier just 2km down the road from St Hilaire de Voust any time you like!

:)

[just another jocky]

I went through FSS in December 83...

Hmmm, I was there Oct - Dec 83. Might I remember you?

[CoffmanStarter]

W00 ... I believe it could be WZ877 as she has been under restoration for some time at La Rochelle as F-AZLI.

Best ...

Coff.

[Canadian Break]

Passed through this establishment in 1980 - one of the early courses I think - No 4 or 5? CB

[Wander00]

Thanks Coff - will be there again next week (for my flight to UK - 2 weeks gliding in Devon - hope the weather is good)so will look out for it. Flew WZ875 and WZ879 but not 877

[KG86]

In June 1974, I took part in an experimental Flying Selection/Grading Course, to see whether that course should introduced to mainstream flying training. We were all assessed at the 7- and 14-hour point, but all progressed to flying training, regardless of our scores. When we had all finished/failed flying training, they then assessed the flying selection/grading course's utility.

My abiding memory of the course was, however, an early circuit at Church Fenton. There I was, flying downwind, desperately trying to get the correct airspeed and height, and recall the pre-landing checks. My knuckles were probably whiter than my flying gloves at this stage. Suddenly, I noticed an increase in noise level and I was somewhat puzzled to see the canopy slowly open. It went to almost fully open, then slowly closed again. Once it was closed, I glanced to the side to look at the airfield, to find that my instructor had written in large, red chinagraphed letters, the word 'TRIM!' on the inside of the canopy. It was a novel way of reminding me, and it worked!

[teeteringhead]

Was not the "notch of brake before X-wind landing/taxiing" to take advantage of the curious interconnection between rudder and brake cables. (Presumably designed in for that reason.)

IIRC (which I may well not!) one lot of cables were routed through pulleys on the other lot. Result: extreme rudder position applied a tad of (appropriate) brake.

Or am I confusing it with another system????

[air pig]

Had a very good friend who was on the ground crew at FSS. They caused the DIs/DS at the recruit school hours of anger and angst with their antics in the hanger which he said was subdivided as a drill shed. They 'lineys' proved to be an example of the real Air Force, scruffy unkempt and generally disrespectful, but doing a very good job, not the rarefied atmosphere of omnipotence the DIs/DS tried too impose.

[Training Risky]

Watching BBC Fighter Pilot on the youtoobs and there is no mention of FSS or the Chippy. The studes seem to magically transfer from OCTU Henlow to Linton on the JP!

Episode 4 features the studes tipping in at Linton on the JP straight from Episode 3 at OCTU Henlow.

Was there a Flying Selection phase on Chipmunks first? If so, it is not mentioned by the narrator.

Also, if their 16 week IOT was at OCTU, does that mean there were Flight Cadets at Cranwell up to 1981 on a 2 year course (IOT, BFT and wings combined?)

[Wensleydale]

As someone who went straight from OCTU Henlow to JPs at Linton in 1977 (about 8 courses before "Fighter Pilot"), I seem to remember that the Chipmunk flying came a little later.

[Background Noise]

Watching BBC Fighter Pilot on the youtoobs and there is no mention of FSS or the Chippy. The studes seem to magically transfer from OCTU Henlow to Linton on the JP!

Episode 4 features the studes tipping in at Linton on the JP straight from Episode 3 at OCTU Henlow.

Was there a Flying Selection phase on Chipmunks first? If so, it is not mentioned by the narrator.

Also, if their 16 week IOT was at OCTU, does that mean there were Flight Cadets at Cranwell up to 1981 on a 2 year course (IOT, BFT and wings combined?)


I think the Fighter Pilot characters were just ahead of FSS - the first FSS course was in about Sep 79. However, you could still go straight to BFT on the JP as FSS was only for those with less than a certain amount of flying experience. Like me.

[just another jocky]

Indeed. I went through FSS in '83.

Monkey see....monkey do, that's how I'd describe it. No teaching, just do this and we'll decide if you can go on to the JP. JP3 for me at CF.

[ShyTorque]

A former colleague told me he passed FSS by hardly looking out of the window at all. He just watched the stick as the instructor demo'ed something, then replicated the movements.

He subsequently became a FJ display pilot, though he was looking out of the window by then.

I once had a helicopter instructor like that. He over-rode the controls so much that I once let him do my engine off all by himself and then he criticised himself for flaring too early.

[Fareastdriver]

that I once let him do my engine off all by himself

The Bristol Sycamore used in basic helicopter training in the early sixties only had one collective in the centre to be used by both instructor and student. Difficult flying was closely monitored and with the Sycamore's critical engine off technique it was hands on monitoring.

I never did an engine off landing. My instructor always did the last bit.

[Cole Burner]

In Sep 1974 I was one of a number of newly commissioned student pilots involved in a trial to determine whether a grading system could predict success or failure of individuals through the RAF pilot training system. The idea, of course, was that by identifying early, those that were not going to make it, would save money by taking them out of the system before they started flying the expensive machinery. I believe it was instigated because experienced EFT QFIs often said they could predict students' (later) success or failure at an early stage.

Straight out of OCTU we went to Church Fenton Primary Flying Grading Sqn and were given 14 hrs flying all dual with a 'test' at 7hrs and 14hrs (or 13.5hrs in my case!). At the end of the 'course', the Staff predicted whether or not each student would reach a Group 1 (fast jet) OCU and sealed the results in an envelope. We were never told the result. We then went through the system of BFTS AFTS and TWU as normal - in my case OCU was 3 years later. At some point all the envelopes were opened and, as I understand it, the predictions were found to be very accurate and Primary Flying Grading was introduced. It seemed a bit unscientific at the time as we all had different previous flying experience. Some guys had no flying training at all, others like me, already had a PPL from a flying scholarship. Maybe this was all taken into account. I never did find out - did I get the yes or no?

[Dan Winterland]

FSS as a grading unit only lasted 5 years before the EFTS course was resurrected. There were two reasons for this, as I understood later when I went back to Swinderby as a QFI. The first was that it as cost effective to do more hours on the cheaper aircraft. The 65 hours on a full time course bought the students up to the same standard as someone with 120 hours from a UAS and they did the short course at Cranwell, saving about 35 JP hours. The backlog at this time was on BFT, so this got the students through faster.

Second, there were doubts about the efficiency of grading. The FSS pass criteria was Group 1 standard as this is where the demand was and all Group 2 and 3 slots could be filled by BFT and beyond with students who hadn't made fast jets. Later, this was not the case and there was a requirement for more BFT pilots to fill these slots. This was achieved by passing more at FSS. But it was soon noted that many of the Group 2/3 only assessed pilots were doing really well at BFT, whereas the Group 1 assessed guys had the usual pass rate. This raised questions as to the effectiveness of grading.

This was analysed and explained by the two very different instruction styles. Compared with conventional instruction, grading was very formal and offered no flexibility to allow exercises to be repeated. Some students did not respond well to this style, particularly the younger ones. There was no debriefing and students were not aware of how they were doing until they got the news at the end of the course. It was also noticed the RN grading system did use a conventional syllabus and the students were sent solo by the end of the course. Their system had a better pass prediction - although they had different requirements with the majority of their pilots going to rotary.

Also, candidates could 'cheat' by doing some flying before FSS. The cut-off criteria was the 30 hours Flying Scholarship and this meant that someone could attend FSS with quite considerable flying experience . Gliding didn't count at all leading to some pilots being assessed with several hundred hours flying already under their belt. My airline recruits about half of it's pilots through a cadet scheme. Candidates used to do ten hours of grading first - but this has been discontinued. Partly due to cost, but also because it was proving ineffective. Several candidates were found to have been paying to learn to fly before grading to ensure a pass at the first stage.

[BEagle]

One of the first aspirant pilots who took part in the pre-FSS trial was later told that, if they'd had any say in the matter, he was the one person who they would definitely have failed...

...he subsequently breezed through fast jet training and became a Lightning pilot.

FSS did seem rather a pointless concept, whereas Chipmunk EFTS seemed a lot more sensible - as the UASs and the old Flt Cdt Chipmunk flying system at Cranwell North had already proved!

[Training Risky]

Thanks all. That makes sense now. In fact it is quite fun watching the 1978-1981 series and comparing it with the 2019 ITV effort. Some of the instructional patter never changes.