Radar control zone endorsement

[JSeward]

Hello all,

I was browsing the rules and found that as a PPL holder I can't fly into control zones with a radar service as I didn't do that on my flight test and my licence only says I can go into non-radar control zones.

How do I know if an area has a radar service? It is probably a silly question but I just can't figure it out from reading ERSA. I have flown into Bankstown before, is this a radar control zone?

I will be talking to my instructor regarding this as I am planning to go through Canberra airspace in a few weeks.

Appears to be a useless rule.

Thanks

[Aussie Bob]

Civil Aviation Order 40.0 Section 3. From my reading of this order, an instructor can provide you with training (does not specify what) then sign your log book and you are away.

My reading of this is that a blackboard briefing would cover it, can't see why not. Any other thoughts out there?

[Aussie Bob]

Sorry, thread drift already, I guess you determine the airspace from the ERC Low and I agree, useless rule!

[WhisprSYD]

Pretty reliable rule of thumb is that if the base of CTA (outside control steps) is A085 then it's defined as radar, if it's FL180 then it's defined as non radar..

[VH-XXX]

I'm wondering if your use of the word "Radar" is incorrect in this instance.

Is it actually the case that you are actually not endorsed for Controlled Airspace?

If that is the case, you need to keep out of A, C and D airspace.

Keeping below our outside the listed C LL's on the map will keep you out of trouble.

[JSeward]

I am endorsed for controlled airspace, flew in it for my flight test but on my licence there is a selection of boxes and I am ticked for controlled airspace without radar service.

Here is the excerpt from the CAO's

The holder of a private pilot licence must not fly an aircraft as pilot in command in controlled airspace that is:
(a) a control area; or
(b) a control zone for which there is a radar service; or
(c) a control zone for which there is no radar service;
unless:
(e) the holder has received training in the aeronautical knowledge needed to safely fly an aircraft in the kind of airspace concerned; and
(f) an authorised flight instructor, or CASA, is satisfied that the holder can safely fly an aircraft in the kind of airspace concerned; and
(g) the instructor, or CASA, has made an entry to that effect in the holder’s personal log book.

[andrewr]

My understanding from when I did the PPL was that Class C = radar, class D = non-radar. (At the time, GAAP was a separate airspace class and endorsement, but I think that has been rolled into the non-radar/class D endorsement now)

[VH-XXX]

Sounds very much like you need to go on a dual and fly into Class C and get signed off for it. Moderately easy for you to do.

Class C is where you aren't permitted to fly.

Canberra definitely has radar.

[Aussie Bob]

Sounds very much like you need to go on a dual and fly into Class C and get signed off for it. Moderately easy for you to do.

I am still of the opinion that a blackboard briefing will meet the training requirements ... but I guess that would depend on which FOI you talked to :ugh:

[JSeward]

I did fly in class C for my flight test but it was a class C control area as opposed to a control zone?

[VH-XXX]

Are you telling us what it was or asking us?

Which airport did you do your test at and where did you fly through?

[YPJT]

(f) an authorised flight instructor, or CASA, is satisfied that the holder can safely fly an aircraft in the kind of airspace concerned;

I can't imagine too many instructors would be overly keen to put their signature to a log book entry that a pilot could safelty fly in CTA on the basis of a blackboard [sic] briefing.

[Hempy]

There is a difference between CTA and a CTZ..

[JSeward]

Yeah I didn't go through a class C CTR only a class C CTA, strange rule. Talking to my flight instructor about getting signed off to go in class C control zone.

[Hempy]

Essentially the rule exists to keep VFR pilots out of capital city Approach/Departures airspace unless they have been trained in appropriate phraseology and procedures...and don't even go there if you are going to argue that ALL VFR pilots are - a lot of VFR pilots can't form a legible sentence over the radio..

Not so stupid a rule imho

[JustJoinedToSearch]

Essentially the rule exists to keep VFR pilots out of capital city Approach/Departures airspace unless they have been trained in appropriate phraseology and procedures...and don't even go there if you are going to argue that ALL VFR pilots are - a lot of VFR pilots can't form a legible sentence over the radio..

Not so stupid a rule imho
Either that or ducked into Essendon using only the tower frequency not above A015 on the test and got signed off for it.

[roundsounds]

A clue as to what endorsements you may hold:
The current PPLA Flight Test form allows the testing officer to tick:
CTA Class A/E, CTR (Non RADAR) Class D, CTR ( RADAR) Class C or all CTA/CTR.

Start out by talking to whoever you did your training / last AFR. The VFRG isn't a bad place to use as an initial reference for procedures / phraseology for Class D and C (which are the most likely endorsements you'll require). There are also a few APPS / websites available for you to listen in on RT chatter to help understand what goes on in those types of airspace. Depending on where you live you might be able to backseat some training flights into the various types of airspace you're wanting to operate in.

The only thing I find more annoying than someone blundering into busy controlled airspace without knowledge of what to do and say are "professional pilots" using their best radio voice spitting out a whole lot of jargon only an Instrument Rated pilot would understand when operating in Class G airspace. eg: Bulamacanka Traffic, Waset Flight345 at Bulamacanka November Alpha on the RNAV23 Zulu approach Bulamacanka - WTF?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Orright, Kiddies...

Correct answers as follows.

CAO 40.0 Para 3
3 Conditions on private pilot licences
3.1 For the purposes of regulation 5.11, it is a condition of each private pilot licence that the holder of the licence must comply with the requirements of this subsection.
3.2 The holder of a private pilot licence must not fly an aircraft as pilot in command in controlled airspace that is:
(a) a control area; or
(b) a control zone for which there is a radar service; or
(c) a control zone for which there is no radar service;
unless:
(e) the holder has received training in the aeronautical knowledge needed to safely fly an aircraft in the kind of airspace concerned; and
(f) an authorised flight instructor, or CASA, is satisfied that the holder can safely fly an aircraft in the kind of airspace concerned; and
(g) the instructor, or CASA, has made an entry to that effect in the holder’s personal log book.
3.3 If, immediately before 3 June 2010, the holder of a private pilot licence had a personal log book endorsement to fly an aircraft as pilot in command in controlled airspace that was a control zone at a GAAP aerodrome then, on and after 3 June 2010, he or she is:
(a) deemed to be in compliance with subparagraphs 3.2 (e), (f) and (g) for flight under subparagraph 3.2 (c) in a control zone for which there is no radar service; and
(b) eligible to have an entry to that effect made in his or her personal log book.
Note The former GAAP aerodromes had general aviation aerodrome procedures. Effective on 3 June 2010, subparagraph 3.2 (d) of Civil Aviation Order 40.0, dealing with control zones at GAAP aerodromes, is repealed because GAAP aerodromes no longer exist as such. However, if, immediately before 3 June 2010, a private pilot licence holder was endorsed to fly an aircraft as pilot in command in controlled airspace at a GAAP aerodrome then, on and after 3 June 2010, he or she may fly in a control zone for which there is no radar service, and is eligible to receive a log book endorsement to that effect.

A Grade 3 instructor cannot remove an airspace restriction.

CAO 40.1.7 Para 9
9.2 A Grade 2 flight instructor may:
(a) under indirect supervision exercise the privileges of a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 3;
(b) check and send students solo in all sequences required for the issue of a private pilot (aeroplane) licence or a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence; and
(c) if the holder has logged at least 400 hours of instructional experience and has the written approval of the chief flying instructor — conduct an aeroplane flight review; and
(d) approve the holder of a private pilot licence to fly an aircraft in controlled airspace.
9.3 A Grade 1 flight instructor may:
(a) under indirect supervision exercise the privileges of a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 2;

What is the difference between
a) radar and non-radar; and
b) an area and a zone?

AIP Gen 2.2 Definitions
Control Area (CTA): A controlled airspace extending upwards from a specified limit above the earth.
Control Zone (CTR): A controlled airspace extending upwards from the surface of the earth to a specified upper limit.
A zone must have SFC As the lower limit and non radar is Class D, eg. D 1500/SFC. If it has DLL (Class D with a Lower Limit) it ia an area.

[Hempy]

There are no Class D 'radar towers'...there's 'Metro Class D', but all Class D belongs to 'non-radar' towers. They also may own Class C above the Class D, but this is also ALL 'non-radar' airspace. This is the 'non-radar' CTR. The difference between is what is considered 'radar' and 'non-radar' CTR and CTA's. 'Radar' CTR's are the Class C over the 'Radar towers' (who themselves own no airspace) and also the 'non-radar' 'Metro D' towers who own a circuit. This airspace is App/Deps. 'Radar' CTA is Class E, C and A in the 'J' curve with base A085 (below this is either Class G or a CTR..) and is considered to have blanket surveillance coverage. 'Non-Radar' CTA is Class E, C and A outside the J curve with a base FL180. Below this is either Class G or the 'non-radar' Class C CTA that overlies the 'non-radar' Class C/D Tower CTR
Class G is O(utside)CTA/R

[Nautilus Blue]

'Non-Radar' CTA is Class E, C and A outside the J curve with a base FL180.

That will come as a surprise to anybody flying/controlling in WA.

[Hempy]

LOL! I knew someone would pipe up to show their amazing knowledge of Controlled Airspace.....kudos to you prof!

No, the 'curve' is not the only lower based E in the country.....it was a genralisation for our VFR OCTA pilots. I would like to assume that anyone flying VFR OR IFR would know their airspace classifications tbh. The whole thread is a worry..

[Aussie Bob]

I would like to assume that anyone flying VFR OR IFR would know their airspace classifications tbh. The whole thread is a worry.. I know my airspace, I am either in CTA or OCTA.

When I am OCTA I get a clearance before entering CTA. Always works!

[Nautilus Blue]

Sorry Hempy, people equating radar coverage to the J curve makes the chip on my shoulder itchy :E (even if it is a mistake that fundamentally underlies SDE, but thats an argument for another thread)

[desert goat]

I had the same issue come up when I did my PPL test out in the sticks- we had a non-radar towered airfield nearby, but were a fair way from any class C, and it didn't seem worthwhile to fly all the way to the east coast just to go through radar-controlled airspace on the flight test. I ended up doing a short dual trip from Archerfield to the Gold Coast and back a few months later, the CFI there gave me another stamp in the book saying I was now "safe to fly in airspace for which there is a radar service" and that was it.
It all does seem a bit silly mind you-I still don't understand how dealing with CTA suddenly becomes harder once the controller has a radar. I didn't learn anything from that Nav that I hadn't already gained from spending 5 minutes looking it up in AIP.

[Hempy]

goat, it's only the radar CTR that causes the issue, because it's owned by Approach. Non-radar CTR is owned by Towers. VFR pilots generally 'get' class D, they essentially get talked in to the field by the tower atc. In radar C it's a different story, and the frequency is a lot more congested because all a/c including RPT jets are on out to 30-35 miles.