Large Biz to Legacy Carrier

[60N]

Hello,

I may be facing a dilemma soon -
Touching mid 30's, with a young family, I have done not too bad in corporate aviation, flying a large shiny new bizjet as Captain for a private owner, at the base of my choice.
Life isn't bad at all; I get to see the world doing long haul, flying nice people around and I get my schedule well in advance.
The owner is relatively young and financially stable and will probably be around for a good few more years.
However, we are only two pilots so no rotatation and no choice of time-off. trips can be as long as 3 weeks away at a time and when I am home there is no real time off, as I do the ops work, flightplanning, fuel coordination, maintenance coordination etc.
Also, we are significantly underpaid and it is not going to change in the current job.
With that said, I am not willing to go the Moscow or China route, just for better pay or for a rotation based job.

A legacy carrier based in here is going to recruit in the not too far future and I stand some chances with them, as an f/o on medium/short haul. That means being home almost every night, which is something I value in my current family situation.
The money is pretty similar, but will rise with seniority in the airline.
The downside is the economy, and this airline is not doing too well.
I have done airline in the past and didn't hate it, although it was on TP.

Something in me says to stay where I am and put up with not seeing the family for long periods, just for the security.
Another thing in me says to take a risk, move across, enjoy the lifestyle and hope for the best.
Worst case, I have PIC time on two common Biz types to fall back on.

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this.

[B200Drvr]

My personal opinion is that if you flip flop to many times between Corp. and Airlines you might become unattractive to both. In Corporate at the moment, they want guys who are current on type, so even though you might have the types, you will not be current in a few years of flying for the legacy carrier, if it all goes wheels up.
I think its a hard decision to make, but not the worst position to be in.
Good Luck!!

[Denti]

One thing to keep in mind is that some legacy carriers allow part time work and that way make some limited freelancing on the side possible. Could be a way to keep current on your current type.

[g450cpt]

Worst case, I have PIC time on two common Biz types to fall back on.

I know I might be opening a can of worms here but: Be careful thinking that you could fall back into corporate. I would be reluctant to hire a furloughed airline pilot back into a corporate position. The reason being that you picked airline over corporate once before, whats to prevent you from heading back to the airline if they call you back. When I interview guys for a position, I want someone who is committed to the operation for the long haul. Not someone who flip flops from job to job or between airline and corporate. Just my 2 cents worth.

BTW. It may be worth a meeting with the principle of your current job to discuss pay and quality of life. I see too may operations that are revolving doors for pilots because whoever is in charge won't explain to the principle what is needed to retain quality crews. In most cases the principle doesn't know why there are new faces all the time, he is just trusting the flight department manager to keep his airplane moving. Usually, given the choice, the principle would rather pay more and be staffed at optimal levels to be able to have familiar faces in the crew.

g450cpt

[60N]

Thanks guys for your comments and ideas.

[falconeasydriver]

I want someone who is committed to the operation for the long haul. Not someone who flip flops from job to job or between airline and corporate.

Well 450 that probably puts you in the 1% category of biz av operators, most in my experience are little better than used car salesmen.
The exception of course being the stable private owner..which are like hens teeth.

[mct777]

What aload of rubbish. If you have GA experience you can always go back. There are no HR depts in GA (apart from NJ) and its who you know etc. Try the airlines again. If it doesn't work out you can always come back providing you have contacts.

[INNflight]

BTW. It may be worth a meeting with the principle of your current job to discuss pay and quality of life.

I agree.

Best case: You get more pay and stay.
Worst case: He rejects your proposal and you leave for the airlines, which you planned on doing anyway.

I am a believer of openly communicating things. Chances are your owner wasn't aware of your dilemma and things work out for the better. If not, you at least gave it a shot. Should be worth it, seeing as you don't exactly seem to hate it there.

[Globally Challenged]

Presumably you are referring to Aer Lingus.

No idea about Dublin, but Heathrow is very unstable, plenty of over nights and only a 2 year contract after which Virgin may give them the boot. Tread with caution and try to talk to current shamrock crew?

[StressFree]

WTF has become of our profession? I'm glad I've already done 25 years and am not a new entrant. :ugh:

[FERetd]

Hello 60N, It would be interesting to know to which Flight and Duty Time scheme you operate, assuming that you have one. Two pilots, long haul operations and undertaking the duties of the Operations Manager seems a bit of a stretch, bearing in mind that office hours are duty hours - particularly worth noting before a flight.
Is your Company audited by any external organisation - IS-BAO (International Standard for Business Aircraft Operations), for example?

Good luck, whatever your decision.

[DrJones]

Its a private operation so no need for FTLs.

[B200Drvr]

"What aload of rubbish. If you have GA experience you can always go back. There are no HR depts in GA (apart from NJ) and its who you know etc. Try the airlines again. If it doesn't work out you can always come back providing you have contacts."

Definitely not true outside of Europe!!!

[Joe le Taxi]

In which direction?

Its certainly true that it is almost impossible to return to airlines after some years in bizjets, outside Europe (and increasingly, inside EU). Nearly all ask for an actual landing on x airline type, within one year. There are very occasional exceptions like Sunexpress Turkey, and obviously if you are on an ACJ or BBJ, its a different matter.

But moving back to bizjets from a stint in airlines, anywhere worldwide, is actually easier, in my experience. Still not easy finding jobs though, in any circumstance

[B200Drvr]

Have worked in the ME and currently in Asia, first of all every Biz-jet company that I have worked for has a HR dept. Secondly, we typically don't recruit airline pilots. Our target is current Corporate folks that have been in stable employment. Thats just my view though, seeing it from the inside!!

[Klimax]

Also speaking from within a Pvt. Biz Jet operator. Coming from an Airline background, with tiny bit of Biz jet experience in between, I did not see any hostility shown towards my background. I think quite a few of the clients in Asia see an airline background, from their pilots, as an advantage, probably even more so if its the "local" carrier.

In my personal view, it may not be very attractive for the operator to "take on" a pilot directly from the airline industry, but if you've done the biz jet ops before hand, or in between, you'd be good to go.

Good luck bro.

[Energetic Pilot]

right you are! This is my personal expierience as I have flip flopped between airline and exec 3 times already. Now I am with he airlines - and bored. Not my last flop.

[60N]

And you are right, it is indeed a bit of a stretch doing 2 pilot long haul plus all other duties. with less than ideal rest time.
We operate under no FTL what so ever.
I must admit, as Cpt. having no FTL is one less thing to think about, when planning and operating a flight.
As for the future, I don't think getting back onto private jets will be such a problem, providing the jobs are there.
I do think however, that I am at my last years where I can still have one last go at the airlines, age wise.
All points taken, thanks again guys.

[Springbok614]

Worst case, I have PIC time on two common Biz types to fall back on.

I know I might be opening a can of worms here but: Be careful thinking that you could fall back into corporate. I would be reluctant to hire a furloughed airline pilot back into a corporate position. The reason being that you picked airline over corporate once before, whats to prevent you from heading back to the airline if they call you back. When I interview guys for a position, I want someone who is committed to the operation for the long haul. Not someone who flip flops from job to job or between airline and corporate. Just my 2 cents worth.

BTW. It may be worth a meeting with the principle of your current job to discuss pay and quality of life. I see too may operations that are revolving doors for pilots because whoever is in charge won't explain to the principle what is needed to retain quality crews. In most cases the principle doesn't know why there are new faces all the time, he is just trusting the flight department manager to keep his airplane moving. Usually, given the choice, the principle would rather pay more and be staffed at optimal levels to be able to have familiar faces in the crew.

g450cpt

Good post. I agree.

[mct777]

Guys flip flop all the time, not just European guys but Americans as well.- I've met loads on my travels. Speak to the flight safety instructors for example. Those guys have done everything. Theres nothing to say you won't jump from one airline to another airline anyway so who really cares? If your face fits you will always get a corporate job providing you have contacts. If you have experience in both you can always fall back on it.

[Teldorserious]

It's been my experience that if you come from corporate you need to downplay your resume or convince you are the team player, professional copilot, non captain, marshmellow, moldable, sellout they ae looking for.

The guys I knew that got into the airlines from corporate had an 'in'..as in SW with three personal refs.

Whatever the case, going from corporate to airlines, a schedule, same trips everyday, might be your thing, where for the guys already bored with three new places that week, the airlines will absolutely kill them, not to mention moving form the captain's seat to an fo seat for like a decade.

It's all about the retirement, clocking in your time, never touching the yoke again, and just waiting it all out.

Your call. Retirement is important, can't deny, but airlines aren't the safe haven they once were, and corporate never was.

The only pull I guess is some streat cred having flown the big iron, or sat in the right seat and said you had, if you go back to corporate you have some airline credibility under your belt.

Whatever the case, corporate and airlines both have their pros and cons.

No expert here, but I seem to have a genetic adversity to taking orders, playing the game, selling out, sitting there with out purpose and watching the clock wind down.

[60N]

Thanks, guys.
I dropped my papers at their door and see what happens.
Looks like I win whatever the outcome is.

[60N]

Just thought I'd trop a line -
Been with this airline for 2 years now.
Pros: life style is much better, family get travel benefits, I get to choose my lifestyle by bidding on other fleets (going B744 now).
Cons: Lost some of the joy of flying by going f/o again, flying under strict set of rules and regulations, destinations are less varied and less exotic.

All in all - a good choice.

[733driver]

Congratulations. Thanks for sharing :ok:

[His dudeness]

Good for you.... now stay away, will you ? :)

[60N]

;)
Best of luck to all.