How to use a Logbook for dummies

[Gulfstream757]

Hi guys, just wondering exactly how do you log hours for a PPL. I don't have a logbook yet so maybe some recommendations would be helpful? When logging hours does your instructor have to sign each entry? Say I flew for 30 mins could I log a few mins at either end as during pre-flight and tie down you are still learning? Also could I log hours I flew a few months ago or do they have to be logged straight after the flight?

Sorry, I know this is really basic, I just don't want to end up having more or less time logged than I actually have.

Thanks for all replies.

[robin]

When you actually start to do your PPL your instructor will show you what's involved and how to complete the entries.


Not much point in worrying about it until you need to

[Gulfstream757]

Ok thanks any advice on what logbook is best? Do I need to have it before my first flight?

[Flying Wild]

Your flying school will log your hours for your training file. No need to have it before you start. Speak to your instructor for advice.

[The_Pink_Panther]

As above. And the CFI will have his own little details he wants too that will be very specific to him...

[RTN11]

If I had my time again, I would start an electronic logbook from day one.

MCC pilot log is the one I now use, and it is excellent. You can print the pages off if you need something signed, and even send off the pdf to be made into a proper bound logbook if you needed it for an interview or something.

Just to actually answer your question, you log from the time the aircraft starts moving under its own power with the intention of taking off, until the time the aircraft stops after landing. No more, no less, so no pre-flight briefs or tie downs. Once you start learning your instructor will help you out, and show you what needs to be done.

[jxk]

I would endorse everything that has been said in previous posts but something that cropped up when I was applying an Australia & NZ licence was that their authorities wanted to know things like total cross country hours etc. So, if I was starting again I would keep running totals of all activities eg X country, T/Os and Landings. This is much easier these days if you use and an electronic log-book as well as your paper one.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree.

I transferred my logbook to an electronic one that I wrote myself when I had about a thousand hours and it was a huge job. But answering questions like that then became vastly easier. So, of-course is maintaining a back up.

That said, I still keep my paper logbook up to date.

G

[BackPacker]

If you do get a logbook already, make sure it's the right one. There are subtle differences between the way the US FAA and the Europeans (JAR-FCL / EASA-FCL) wants things logged. So you have to get a logbook that is JAR-FCL / EASA-FCL compliant - just getting a generic one from a US pilot shop might be a waste of money.

Furthermore, what you need to log, formally, is the time "the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off" and the time "the aircraft comes to a final rest after landing". And, of course, the time difference between those. That last item then becomes part of the running total. (These times, by the way, are typically referred to as "off blocks" and "on blocks" - where "blocks" means the chocks that are laid against the wheels to prevent movement.)

That's what the rules say. However, for other purposes (aircraft logbooks) you also need to record engine start/engine stop, and takeoff/landing times. In practice people just write down two or four of those items, and extrapolate from there. Your instructor will tell you how things are done at your place. Me, I write down engine start/takeoff/landing/engine off during the flight. These go straight into the aircraft logbook, but I also use engine start/engine stop for my personal logbook. After all, the time difference between engine start and off blocks is normally less than a minute. And on return I might already shut the engine down while the aircraft is still rolling.

Then you have to log some particulars of the flight itself. Aircraft callsign and type, departure and destination airfield of course, but you also need to log:
- The type or category of aircraft. Which will most likely be "SEP" (Single Engine Piston) in your case. You need to be able to tally up this category separately for licence revalidation purposes, that's why you record it separately.
- Your operating capacity. Were you student with an instructor on board ("dual") or were you the Pilot In Command (PIC)? For some purposes only PIC time is counted, for other purposes only Dual time is counted. So you need to record this separately.
- Were you flying at night, or flying under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)? Again, some purposes require that you are able to tally up these separately.
- The number of take-offs and landings, and whether these were done in daylight or at night.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The USA uses the same "blocks" based definition for flight time as Europe (although the UK military, at-least, uses a different definition - they use take-off to landing).

Another advantage of using an electronic logbook is that you can have it adapt for multiple regimes. So, for example I hold both EASA and FAA licences, and some things are totalled differently or different pieces of information are needed (e.g. FAA care about cross-country time and have a formal definition for it, whilst EASA now want time IFR; alternately if I, say, fly an X'Air - to the Americans that's an aeroplane, whilst to the Europeans that's a microlight and not included in certain totals columns). When I wrote my Excel based logbook, I set it up to provide separate totals for EASA and FAA logging purposes.

As a paper logbook, I've been using a Pooleys (Airtour when I bought it!) standard commercial logbook, which neither the UK/European, nor American powers that be have ever had any problems with.

G

[kesikun]

In addition to the Pooleys paper log book .

I use the online logbook found on UKGA

Allows me to backup to excel and nice map view of where you have been :)

UKGA home (http://ukga.com/home/view)

[Gulfstream757]

Guys thanks for all the replies great info.

Backpacker/Genghis I was thinking of this logbook?-

Pooleys PPL Logbook (http://www.transair.co.uk/sp+Aviation-Logbooks-Pooleys-PPL-Logbook+7615)

Thanks for all other replies really helpful info:ok:

[BackPacker]

Can't go wrong with that one.

One thing to check though. Some schools have a deal where you get a free logbook as part of your trial flight, or something like that.

[Gulfstream757]

Backpacker,
OK thanks for that I think I'll go for it,
My school doesn't have that unfortunately as I've already had a trial flight
Thanks for all your help.
Gulf57

[englishal]

If you do get a logbook already, make sure it's the right one. There are subtle differences between the way the US FAA and the Europeans (JAR-FCL / EASA-FCL) wants things logged. So you have to get a logbook that is JAR-FCL / EASA-FCL compliant - just getting a generic one from a US pilot shop might be a waste of money.
My trusty FAA logbook has lasted me 13 years so far and the CAA have never had an issue with it....I also log Decimal time as I can't add up HH:MM :D

[Genghis the Engineer]

Guys thanks for all the replies great info.

Backpacker/Genghis I was thinking of this logbook?-

Pooleys PPL Logbook (http://www.transair.co.uk/sp+Aviation-Logbooks-Pooleys-PPL-Logbook+7615)

Thanks for all other replies really helpful info:ok:

If there's any risk of your going multi-engine or commercial, I'd strongly recommend starting off with a commercial logbook - Pooleys do a good one, but so do others.

If you are likely to stay a single engine PPL for all/most of your flying career - then that little Pooleys logbook is great.

G

My trusty FAA logbook has lasted me 13 years so far and the CAA have never had an issue with it....I also log Decimal time as I can't add up HH:MM :D

Which makes a valuable point.

It's YOUR personal logbook - so long as you meet the minimum legal requirements, it really doesn't matter if you use an FAA logbook in EASAland, or vice-versa, an old school exercise book, an old RAF logbook, or (like me) use a 25 year old logbook and the regulations have changed several times since, or whether you log in decimal time, to the nearest 5 minutes, or the nearest minute. The authorities really do have more important things to worry about.

My preferences work for me and have never upset the authorities. Other people do it differently, which works for them, and also has never upset the authorities.

The legal minima, most places are:-

Date
Aircraft registration and type
Block-to-block time
Captain's name
Holder's capacity on board
Departure and arrival aerodromes
Exercise(s) flown.
Time night / IMC / IFR
Details of any tests and the outcomes.

In practice most people at the very least also include take-off and landing times, co-pilot or (more commonly in PPLing) passenger name(s), aircraft class, and the odd note about other aspects of the flight. Pretty much any commercially available logbook will do all of that, and there's nothing to stop you making up your own if you prefer.

G

[Barcli]

Talk to Bose-X - he'll show you ......

[F4TCT]

I use an AFE logbook and simply copied the layouts onto an excel spreadsheet. Keep both up to date.

And while we are on the subject of logbooks, whats the 'any other flying' section for?

Dan

[Whopity]

When logging hours does your instructor have to sign each entry?An interesting question, Part FCL says:AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
instruction time: a summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction, instrument ground time, etc., may be logged if certified by the appropriately rated or authorised instructor from whom it was received;

[Genghis the Engineer]

And while we are on the subject of logbooks, whats the 'any other flying' section for?

Dan

Whatever you choose to use it for...

- Time instructing (if you are an instructor of-course)
- Tailwheel time (if that happens to matter to you)
- Microlight time (if you have a licence combination where you need to keep these separeate)
- Passenger time (perfectly legitimate so keep a record of so long as you don't include it in any licencing totals).

Ultimately every pilot's logbook is their personal logbook and so long as legal minima are met and nothing gets added into licencing requirements that shouldn't be, they have every right to personalise it to their own style of flying and interests. And most of us do.

G

[Gulfstream757]

Hi Genghis could you maybe give me a link to the commercial logbook you were talking about?
Thanks a lot:)

[Genghis the Engineer]

This is the one I use.

Log Books | Commercial Log Books | NLB035 | 3. Pooleys Non-JAR Commercial Pilots Log Book (http://www.pooleys.com/prod_detail.cfm?product_id=39)

(They do a nice leather cover for it as well).

In my case, I make stickers up on my PC and have changed all the column headings to suit the particular pattern of my flying, and then I created an Excel spreadsheet to match that.

If you're in for the long run and can afford a few extra pennies, these are beautiful and I may well treat myself to one when my current logbook eventually fills up.

Leather Pilot Logbook - www.leatherlogbook.com (http://www.leatherlogbook.com/)

G

[Gulfstream757]

Thanks Genghis those leather logbooks are tempting. Was just talking to a guy in my school its common practice to buy in packs such as this one-Transair Private Pilot (PPL) Study Pack (http://www.transair.co.uk/sp+Private-Pilot-Training-Packs-Transair-Private-Pilot-PPL-Study-Pack+1001-PPL)

They do this as they can get up to a 40% discount that way, is this a good idea or is it too much?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Don't buy a starter pack - buy the bits you actually need when you actually need them, and where possible, save a few quid buying items like the CRP and textbooks on eBay. A decent quality or re-useable supermarket carrier bag makes a perfectly good student flight bag (although personally I favour old conference bags, or you can buy similar bags for a fiver on most markets). Also buy the latest CAA half million (not the Transair one million in that particular pack - nobody uses the 1m chart whilst learning) chart when you start your nav. They get updated regularly and you don't want to be flying with an out of date chart.

G

[tmmorris]

An example use of the Any Other Flying column: I work with Air Cadets and sometimes get a flight in a Grob Tutor. I'm legally a passenger but in practice once they discover I have a PPL most instructors let me do most or all of the handling. So, I log those flights as AOF, handlers capacity: SuperNumerarY, as I'm not PUT but it's nice to have a record.

Tim

[Gulfstream757]

Thanks Genghis I was wrong actually they basically say at my school to go for whatever is cheapest sometimes the packs can actually be more expensive. I just ordered my logbook should be waiting for me next time I go flying thanks for all your help can't wait to get started!:E

[Gulfstream757]

Just made my first entry now thanks all for your help

Gulf'57

[BigEndBob]

I always make my students fill out the first few pages in pencil, so that they don't mess up the additions or fill in the wrong boxes and totals.

And remember a paper logbook is like a diary, something to look back on with fond memories, to be treasured.

I had two stolen long ago when left in a van. Fortunately they had already passed through the hands of the CAA for licence issue.
But they had a lot of memerable night flights and it felt like the death of a pet when they went.

Good idea to make a photo copy or photograph pages with mobile occasionally.

[Mike Cross]

How to use a Logbook for dummies
It's a long time ago now but I seem to recall that the correct thing to use for dummies is a container with some Milton sterilising solution in it. A log book is no good for that, the soulution runs everywhere and it gets very soggy.

Best to use a log book for what it was designed for, recording flight times.

[BackPacker]

I always make my students fill out the first few pages in pencil,

A very good idea in theory, but isn't there some kind of regulation that it has to be done with indelible ink or something like that?

[mad_jock]

There is BAckpacker.

But many instructors have learn't over the years that pencil first then do a couple with them then leave them for a bit "solo" then check and sort the mistakes out saves gallons of tippex.

The dual stuff is usually ok but it goes adrift when they start mixing dual and solo work.

Some old hands won't let students touch there log books until after its been submitted to the CAA.

[Whopity]

Some old hands won't let students touch there log books until after its been submitted to the CAA.Sadly true, no wonder some pilots don't read NOTAMS when they are used to being spoon fed!

[BillieBob]

isn't there some kind of regulation that it has to be done with indelible ink or something like that? Not in the UK. The ANO requires that a pilot keeps a personal flying log and details the information that must be entered into it. There is no suggestion whatever of how it is kept. Let's face it, it is no more difficult to alter the details in an electronic log than in a paper log book kept in pencil yet the CAA happily accept printouts of electronic records.

[mad_jock]

To be honest after a year of full time instructing I was coming round to their way of thinking.

You could keep hold of it and keep it in the training records and come license application the whole lot would go in and it would be issued with 15mins of work.

Or you could spend 2 hours checking it through and getting it matching the training records and log sheets.

Or you could fire the whole lot in without checking anything and it would invariably bounce and then have to fanny around checking it and correcting it anyway.

All of which was of course unpaid as a FI and you had to do after flying was finished with your boss bitching at you usually half pissed.

Then the intricacy's of how to log the flights for a night qual to prove that they were full stops. Thought I had cracked it until 6 in one got bounced and again boss bitching I told you to log each circuit individually and not just put "full stop landings" in the remarks.

I presume now with the EASA bollocks its going to be even worse for anal retentive paper work for no benefit to flight safety or quality of training.

[BackPacker]

BillieBob, you are correct that the ANO (article 79 in particular) doesn't describe how flight time should be logged. Paper and ink, paper and pencil, or electronic, all seem to be acceptable.

But we are now living under EASA, so I just checked CAP804. And things became a bit more complicated there, as usual. In the regulations themselves it states that electronic logbooks are OK for CAT use. But apparently for CAT only:

4 Format of the record
4.1 Details of flights flown for commercial air transport may be recorded in a
computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case an operator should
make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and
familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight crew member concerned.
4.2 For other flights, the pilot must record the details of the flights flown in a log. The
following format is strongly recommended.

Straight after this CAP804 includes a sample logbook page, with the instructions on how to fill it in. And in those instructions it states:

All entries in the log should be made in ink or indelible pencil.

(CAP804 as downloaded from the CAA website, Section 1 Part E Page 9 which is page 125 in the PDF version I have).

I have not checked the material that originates from EASA itself as the EASA website throws a mysql error, but I happen to have the AMC/GM to EASA-FCL (Annex to ED Decision 2011/016/R, initial issue, 15 december 2011) here at hand.

AMC1 to FCL.050 - Recording of flight time:

[...]

(c) Format of the record:
(1) Details of flights flown under commercial air transport may be recorded in a computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case an operator should make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight crew member concerned;
(2) For other types of flight, the pilot should record the details of the flights flown in the following logbook format. For sailplanes and balloons, a suitable format should be used that contains the relevant items mentioned in (a) and additional information specific to the type of operation.

So the suggested format is no longer "strongly recommended", as CAP804 states, but is mandatory. And again there are instructions for use:

All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.

In this particular document (dated 15 december 2011) there are no additional AMCs related to FCL.050. I don't know (and am not able to check) if an updated AMC regarding FCL.050 has been released in the meantime.

The conclusion that I (hesitatingly and tentatively) draw from this is that computerised records are not acceptable to EASA except in the case of commercial air transport. You have to do a paper logbook to fulfill the authorities requirements. Furthermore, the paper logbook has to be done in ink or indelible pencil.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Incidentally, has anybody ever actually seen an indelible pencil. I don't think that I'd know one if it bit me.

G

[foxmoth]

If you are looking to go commercial I would STRONGLY back up the suggestion of going electronic. When you start applying to airlines, each one wants different info on your hours by type/weight band/power plant/ type of operation etc., handwritten logbook this can take you days to fill in, electronic can normally be done in minutes.

[BackPacker]

Incidentally, has anybody ever actually seen an indelible pencil. I don't think that I'd know one if it bit me.

Easy. It's the one that you accidentally left in the pocket of that very expensive white shirt, when you put it in the washing machine.:E

[mad_jock]

I think they are made out of silver nitrate G.

The only time I have come across them was in a medical use and that was for burning scar tissue. The old doctor that was applying it to me was giving me the history of it. And the indelible pencil was mentioned

I think you can get them in art shops but not quite the strength of the caustic sticks used by the medics. He also mentioned another type that gave you a purple dye when wet which you could get a copy off using tissue paper. He had used them when studying medicine so he could copy his notes at a later date.

Did they not used to etch some metals with them as well?

[BillieBob]

But we are now living under EASA, so I just checked CAP804.CAP804 is not a legal source, nor is it an EASA document. Like LASORS before it, it is poorly constructed mish-mash of 'copy and paste' from other documents interspersed with often misleading opinion. The fact that this document suggests that ink or indelible pencil should be used does not make it mandatory. Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that the use of pencil is a good idea, just pointing out the legal requirements, which may well be different in other EU states.

[Whopity]

But apparently for CAT only:
FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.
The UK CAA is the competent authority and Article 79 is the law regarding EASA logging by pilots holding a UK issued EASA licence. The covering letter (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LetterToSubs.pdf) issued with the latest amendment (1/2012) to the ANO states:A personal flying log need no longer be kept in the form of a book.
Article 79

[Cobalt]

So the suggested format is no longer "strongly recommended", as CAP804 states, but is mandatory.

Backpacker, you use the correct version of the AMC. But the meaning of the words is
shall --> must.
should --> strongly recommended.
so the CAA, while not verbatim, is correct. They just translate EU legalese into more understandable English.

Now to the other part

Details of flights flown for commercial air transport may be recorded in a computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case an operator should make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight crew member concerned.

Since this explicitly allows an electronic logbook, it appears to imply that any electronic logbook needs such a permission to be compliant. But it actually allows that the electronic logbook is kept by the operator on behalf of the pilot, and hence absolves the pilot from having to keep his/her own log which would otherwise be required.

So the regs work the following way:





FCL.050 - A pilot has to keep a log of his/her time, as determined by the CAA
AMC to FCL.050 (a) and (b) - Lots of detail on what to log and what it means, including gems such as that IFR flight is flight under IFR.
AMC to FCL.050 (c) (1) For CAT, your log can be maintained electronically by the operator
AMC to FCL.050 (c) (2) For all others, you should use the following logbook format
The rest of the AMC are just "instructions for use"
Not sure this is what is intended, but this is what is written. And if you think the format is mandatory, I would guess that 99% of all logbooks kept are not compliant.

[BackPacker]

The UK CAA is the competent authority
The CAA may be a competent authority as intended by FCL.050, but AFAIK they are limited by the Acceptable Means of Compliance as issued by EASA. They cannot simply go off on their own and establish their own standards or means of compliance - even if those standards were applicable pre-EASA.

And the only EASA-FCL.050 AMC that I can see is the one requiring a paper logbook (CAT excepted).

If the CAA wants to allow electronic logbooks (and I can only encourage them to do so), they've got to get an AMC for that accepted by EASA. And as far as I can see (the EASA website is still having problems, unfortunately), they haven't.

Article 79 is the law regarding EASA logging by pilots holding a UK issued EASA licence.
AFAIK, the ANO is no longer relevant as far as EASA Annex I aircraft is concerned. The reason the ANO is still there and kept up to date with amendments, is that it is still applicable to Annex II aircraft.

But the meaning of the words is
shall --> must.
should --> strongly recommended.

Do you have a reference for this? It seems to me that stuff like this is a gigantic minefield as far as translation into all the languages of the EU is concerned.

[BillieBob]

The CAA may be a competent authority as intended by FCL.050, but AFAIK they are limited by the Acceptable Means of Compliance as issued by EASA.That would be true except that, in this case, the Regulation specifically releases them from that limitation, FCL.050 - "....in a form and manner established by the competent authority"AFAIK, the ANO is no longer relevant as far as EASA Annex I aircraft is concerned.Completely wrong! The ANO applies to all UK registered aircraft so long as it does not conflict with EU law. Since the establishment of the form and manner of the pilot's record is delegated to the competent authority, the ANO does not, in this case, conflict with EU law and is, therefore, applicable.

It is entirely illogical to assume that once the form and manner has been delegated to the competent authority in 'hard' law, that authority should then be constrained by the 'soft' law of the AMC.

What on earth (or above it) is an Annex I aircraft? Perhaps you mean an EASA aircraft?

[Cobalt]

Do you have a reference for this? It seems to me that stuff like this is a gigantic minefield...

You provide it yourself - the CAA interprets it that way [see CAP 804], and that is what matters in this case.

Also, look at the snappily named "Joint Practical Guide of the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission for persons involved in the drafting of legislation within the Community institutions" (ttp://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/techleg/pdf/en.pdf).

It is clear in that document that in English, "shall" shall be used to express commands [and, for example, present tense in French]. Also, note the careful use of "shall" and "should" throughout that document.

Tomorrow morning, I shall present my electronic logbook printout to the CAA, and should they reject it I shall report back to this forum.

Wonderful, these two words - they can mean so many things...

[Gulfstream757]

Hi guys I thanks for all the replies after looking through my logbook I have a few questions.

1. There is a section where you have to log the hours that you have before getting the logbook. I only have a 30 min intro flight so should I say I have 30 mins previous experience or should I log it in the normal section as the time is not logged previously.

2. At the start of the logbook it there is a space for the log book no. what do I fill in here?

3.Can I log passenger hours (in the passenger hours section)in GA aircraft only? Also I know you have to be 15 to log training hours does this apply to passenger flying?

Thanks in advance
Gulf'57

[Rhino25782]

1. There is a section where you have to log the hours that you have before getting the logbook. I only have a 30 min intro flight so should I say I have 30 mins previous experience or should I log it in the normal section as the time is not logged previously.Talk to the instructor who did the intro flight with you. AFAIK, intro flights can be logged towards your PPL. This makes sense, as the first exercise in the syllabus really is an intro flight. There is no requirement to repeat the intro flight once you have decided to actually pursue the PPL.

If for any reason you cannot log the intro flight, I don't really think logging it as previous experience would make any sense. You'll do this when you start your second log book and carry-over the total from the previous log book.

2. At the start of the logbook it there is a space for the log book no. what do I fill in here?Assuming you haven't had any log books before, this would arguably have to be "1".

3.Can I log passenger hours (in the passenger hours section)in GA aircraft only? Also I know you have to be 15 to log training hours does this apply to passenger flying?As has been stated above, those numbers are irrelevant to any licensing matters and as such, you can probably handle this as you wish. I'd doubt the usefulness of airline passenger hours in a pilot's log, though. While your experience may grow as a passenger in a GA aircraft by learning from the PIC, this is hardly the case in seat 28F of the average airliner.

Personally (and sadly enough!), I fly more hours as PAX on airliners for business than I fly as PIC in GA aircraft and I'd go nuts if I were to log all those passenger hours. Incidentally, Lufthansa provides a nice web-based log of my passenger flights, inluding breakdowns per airport and aircraft type. ;-)

[mad_jock]

Speak to your instructor they will show and help you fill it in.

If you are going commercial just put in what you need to, nothing more nothing less.

If your only intending to fly as a hobby you can put in what you like. As long as you don't count hours for PIC and DUAL and the like when your a pax.

If you do decide to put all your pax flying in though I won't be responsible for your instructor throttling you when it comes to applying for your PPL.

Its better for you just to keep a separate diary and keep the log book for official stuff.

[Cobalt]

Today I presented a print-out of my electronic logbook to the CAA for a rating change. I signed every page as "I certify the above is a true record of my flying" or words to that effect (it is part of the page header, they asked me to do this the first time I used it several years ago... ) It was accepted without batting an eyelid.

I am sure they prefer that over having to decipher my variable hand-writing.