300nm CPL route requirements [Archive]

Matt7504

26th Jun 2013, 20:53

Hello Ppruners, today I flew what I hope was my 300nm CPL cross country. Now the requirements on cap 804 are not very specific but I feel I covered what they require one to do and that is to fly a total of at least 300nm between a base airfield and the land aways at 2 separate airfields. Now I easily covered 300nm today as I flew from EGJJ to EGBP then to EGTB and back home to EGJJ. I am very exhausted as it was an early start and a long day, but my mind needs to be put at ease....is there a minimum required distance between each airfield?
EGBP to EGTB is 45 nm as the crow flies and so this worries me a little. What do you fellow ppruners think of this?

RTN11

26th Jun 2013, 21:54

Nope, no distance between airfields is specified, only that the total trip is 300nm and you land at 2 different airfields.

You could go to A - 5nm - B - 148nm - C - 148nm - A for all they care, using the field next door.

Matt7504

26th Jun 2013, 22:07

Thanks, that is really reassuring. I mean as much as I enjoy flying, being stuck inside that cockpit all alone for 5 hours or so was really exhausting (Plus the aircraft has skylight windows so I was essentially being ovenbaked in the process). All a valuable learning experience though.

Happy Wanderer

27th Jun 2013, 17:07

Whilst the above is technically correct, in terms of the 'spirit' (if nothing else) in which the route is planned and executed, any triangular route which involves one overly short leg (eg 5 miles would seem relatively short to me) and therefore two very similar lengths is generally to be discouraged as one then becomes a near retrace of the other. As a FI, I always got my students (both PPL and CPL) to plan for a near perfect triangular route which has the added advantage of balancing out flight time between airfields.

RTN11

27th Jun 2013, 19:14

Both have their advantages, I know people who would do a trip far in excess of the requirements, perhaps 500nm, stopping somewhere on the way back to satisfy the extra landing requirement. This builds in getting used to longer flights, more fuel planning for alternates and weather.

Either way, the hour building should be used wisely. The saying goes you can have 100 hours, or the same hour 100 times, so do different things and build real experience rather than simply satisfying the minimum hours requirement without actually going anywhere interesting.

federico100mt

27th Jun 2013, 21:53

Hi! May the 300nm nav be in 2 days? I did fews over 2 or more days. Byee

Matt7504

28th Jun 2013, 06:56

Afraid not, you must do the cross country in one day.

Whiskey Bravo

28th Jun 2013, 10:26

Anyone know if there is a requirement to land back at the original airfield? I am presuming not since the requirement is "a VFR cross-country flight of at
least 540 km (300 NM), in the course of which full stop landings at two
aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made"

I did mine flying from Nantes (France) to San Sebastian (Spain) 229nm and then on to Viseu in Portugal, which was about 600nm in total.

Matt7504

28th Jun 2013, 14:07

I think someone mentioned in a different thread that 4 aerodromes have to be involved when flying those types of cross countries, though in my opinion only 3 should be needed and from what the text says only 3 are needed. That is a really cool route though Whiskey Bravo!

BillieBob

28th Jun 2013, 16:16

I have never understood why people try to make the requirements more complicated than they really are.

Did you fly VFR?
Did you follow a pre-planned route using standard navigation procedures?
Is Nantes-San Sebastian-Viseu more than 300nm?
Are San Sebastian and Viseu different aerodromes from Nantes?
What's the problem?

Artie Fufkin

29th Jun 2013, 17:03

One word; instructor.

Or am I missing something?

TractorBoy

30th Jun 2013, 16:02

You don't actually have to be on your own for the 300nm. I took a non-flying friend along for some company and made a day out of it. Break the trip up into 3 100nm legs and it's much more manageable.

I did North Weald - Welshpool - Gamston - North Weald. Got to see some interesting terrain and had a fantastic meal at Gamston and pottered round the Diamond hangers.

Rithalic

1st Jul 2013, 02:01

my advice would be plan and fly in accordance with the requirements. then hold onto your plogs and a photocopy of your charts until licence issue. job done.

Level Attitude

1st Jul 2013, 11:39

How to measure the 300nm?
Straight line tracks between the airfields visited is common but
not actually specified.
Could have airfields very close together but fly to them via Turning Points
miles away, so that total distance flown is 300nm.

guyleedsutd

1st Jul 2013, 18:06

Is there a requirement to take a sheet to be signed at the aerodromes you land at like on the qxc for ppl issue,or is it just the proof of logging the flight in your logbook that suffices

Matt7504

1st Jul 2013, 19:43

You do not need to get sheets signed or have any actual proof to be honest, but a good idea may be to hold onto the receipts of where you went and present them a flight instructor at the flying school your flying out of (If you are flying form a flying school) and get the instructor to countersign your logbook

turbulentmonkey

2nd Jul 2013, 06:11

Congrats on the X-Country Matt :ok:

Just done my CPL X-Country Qualifier yesterday. I'm in the US just now, so my route was:

Long Beach - San Luis Obispo - San Carlos - Oakland Intl

I never landed at the same airfield I originally took off from (because it's not required) and I never had 3 long flights because that's not required either. I landed at San Carlos in the San Francisco bay area before heading north-east over the SF bay at low level to Oakland via mid-span San Mateo bridge. It's a short distance between these 2 airports but it counts all the same!

I also have quite a few good pictures of the trip.

The weather was a tad warm at 43 degrees C at San Luis Obispo! We were in a C-152 with a headwind of about 5 knots the entire way north to SF... :yuk:

Matt7504

2nd Jul 2013, 06:33

Congratulations to you too then. I might try and do a 4 aerodrome trip myself also, would be nice to have 3 different types of ICAO identifiers in my logbook in one sitting (Jersey, France, Belgium).
I don't know how you managed at 43 degrees C, my PA28 has a modified skylight roof and I was roasting at 18C! A temperature that hot must have quite an impact on the aircraft performance also.

turbulentmonkey

2nd Jul 2013, 18:41

It certainly was Matt! Especially when doing a long cross country as we required a lot of fuel in the tanks. With 2 up in a C152, full fuel and ridiculously hot temperatures, it's not just the T/O and landing distances that you have to consider... the climb performance also takes a massive hit.

When we left San Carlos we had to remain at 1000 feet to stay 500ft below class Bravo until we were just south of the airfield, then we had to climb to 2,000ft very fast to clear Palo Alto's class Delta airspace. We ended up routing around their airspace over the water because we weren't climbing fast enough. I think at one point we were only managing around 250ft/min!

custardpsc

5th Jul 2013, 18:34

Turbulentmonkey, where were you training al klgb? I just did my faa cpl at California Flight Center, my xc was long beach, buckeye az, Blyth, long beach. I hope that was your easa xc if you were two up, fas xc must be solo, they are hot on it. I couldnt use my uk 300nm xc for that reason. My checkride was monday, just missed you there

Saw above the reference to easa xc having to be done in a day, last time I looked that requirement seems to have been dropped under easa unless anyone knows better?

turbulentmonkey

5th Jul 2013, 22:54

Custardpcs,

Yes it was for my UK CPL x-country qualifier. Currently flying with Long Beach Flying Club although I'm not actually training just now - I'm just building experience at the weekends when I'm off work. There's a great bunch of guys at that club who are all in similar situations (time building and training under part 61) and the club has a good atmosphere.

Did you have to re-do your x-country Qualifier for FAA CPL issue?

With regard to flight time, I record all my flights in my UK logbook in zulu. That meant recording my CPL x-country over 2 dates, although I did actually get it done in one day (local time). I'm certain this is valid.

Will you be flying in the UK now or are you remaining in the US for some time? I'd tell all my friends back home they need to experience flying in the US. It's just a different world out here - cheap fuel, VOR's everywhere and the service from FBO's is great!

custardpsc

6th Jul 2013, 13:02

>Did you have to re-do your x-country Qualifier for FAA CPL issue?

yup. But no big deal, was glad to do a long trip and more complex/high performance time right before my check ride was helpful. Long Beach Flying Club seems nice, went in there to buy a new AFD last week..

I left right after my check ride, now in Dubai. No GA here at all sadly.

Are you living in Long Beach ? I'll be back soon for the IR....

Scott C

6th Jul 2013, 14:04

Sorry to jump in on your thread, but I just wondered if I could get some advice on my CPL QXC please?

I am looking at doing:

Tatenhill - Jersey (239nm)
Jersey - Guernsey (21nm)
Guernsey - Tatenhill (247nm)

I was informed that this would be fine as long as it's done within a 24 hour period.
Therefore, I was thinking of leaving Tatenhill mid-afternoon, flying to Jersey and staying overnight, then flying in to Guernsey the next day before heading back home... is this allowed? If I have enough time, I was thinking about popping in to Alderney too.

Many thanks in advance.

turbulentmonkey

8th Jul 2013, 05:28

That's a shame to hear about GA in Dubai.

I actually live quite near Long Beach, so drop me a PM when you're heading over for the IR.

Scott C, thanks for bringing us back on topic (I was starting to wander) :ok:
I can't see anything wrong with that flight plan for the qualifying CPL x-country, but you do know it only has to be 300nm yeah? You can do a much shorter flight in one day and it would still be valid. Just make sure it's more than 300nm direct track between the airfields (even if your route is longer!), otherwise it won't be valid.

BillieBob

8th Jul 2013, 09:03

Just make sure it's more than 300nm direct track between the airfields (even if your route is longer!), otherwise it won't be valid.Another myth, I'm afraid. The requirement is to complete a flight of at least 300nm during which a full-stop landing is made at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure. There is no requirement for the aerodromes to be any particular distance from each other. For example, Jersey - Guernsey - Alderney would be perfectly acceptable provided that you flew around the area enough to make the total distance exceed 300nm.

custardpsc

8th Jul 2013, 11:55

Pretty sure the within 24hr period is a myth too. Last time I looked under JAR that stipulation didnt exist. If I remember correctly, this is a confusion with the old uk national cpl, which did have a "within the course of a single day" restriction.

The distance is now in km too actually I think, 540 from memory

Tm, thanks, will do

Scott C

12th Jul 2013, 12:23

Thank you for your replies.

Does anyone have a definitive answer to my question before I book the Aircraft and a Hotel?

Many thanks.

BSMeister

18th Jun 2014, 10:51

Another myth, I'm afraid. The requirement is to complete a flight of at least 300nm during which a full-stop landing is made at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure.

Billiebob
The wording doesn't even include different aerodromes anymore! But I am told it is not in the spirit of the exercise! And how do you prove that the distance has been covered?

I cannot find written evidence that the aerodrome triangle can be less than 300nm!! EASA AMC and GM are no help whatsoever.
Apparently the CAA put a ruler between the stated landing points??

Do you have an official interpretation in writing?
A copy or link would be much appreciated!!

Level Attitude

18th Jun 2014, 18:44

The wording doesn't even include different aerodromes anymore!Yes it does:
Part-FCL Appendix 3
Training courses for the issue of a CPL and an ATPL

E. CPL modular course — Aeroplanes

EXPERIENCE
12. The applicant for a CPL(A) shall have completed at least 200 hours flight time, including at least:

(a) 100 hours as PIC, of which 20 hours of cross-country flight as PIC, which shall include a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540 km (300 NM), in the course of which full stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made;I cannot find written evidence that the aerodrome triangle can be less than 300nmThere isn't any. It doesn't have to be. However I think it is a good idea as aerodromes (usually) log landings so, provided they are the requisite distance apart, there is (if necessary) an independent means of verifying the flight met the distance requirements.

Therefore, I was thinking of leaving Tatenhill mid-afternoon, flying to Jersey and staying overnight, then flying in to Guernsey the next day before heading back home... is this allowed?The requirement is for "a VFR cross-country flight" ie one flight. There is no definition of what constitutes one flight, as opposed to two (or more) different flights.
Time between landing and taking off would probably be a consideration. I don't think anyone would argue that a Take Off one week after Landing is a continuation of the same flight. An overnight break: Who knows? But I would suggest these now become separate flights - so not allowed for the 300nm experience requirement for CPL issue.

BSMeister

19th Jun 2014, 08:03

...different from point of departure!

So there is no need for written proof of having been to another aerodrome!

But the distance between aerodromes that may or may not have been visited should confirm the distance that may or may not have been flown!?

BillieBob

19th Jun 2014, 14:25

The requirement is for, "a flight of 300nm during which full stop landings at two airfields different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made". Consequently, any flight that covers at least 300nm during which two landings are made qualifies irrespective of how far apart the airfields are. As an extreme example: Lee-on-Solent - MID - GWC - SFD - MID - OCK - BIG - DVR - SFD - Bembridge - Sandown - Lee-on-Solent is about 305nm and will meet the requirement.

As for proving that the distance has been covered, logbook evidence is normally sufficient although, if you are claiming something odd, a copy of the PLOG might be useful.

BSMeister

19th Jun 2014, 23:31

Exactly as I thought...

Open to interpretation with no means of clarification!

Unless there is someone from EASA or the CAA willing to go on record with a clarifying statement to support any particular interpretation...!?

...best stick with the unambiguous, measurable, 300nm triangle to avoid having to repeat the exercise!

jamie2004

24th Jun 2014, 09:32

I did my CPL QXC last week, total mileage of 374NM, didnt use a triangular route.
I went for EGKB-EGMC (OH)-EGSR (OH)-EGSC-CLN-DET-SFD-EGHH-GWC-MAY-EGKB

EGSC & EGHH stamped my log book, keeping hold of the plog incase the CAA ask any questions when it comes to licence issue.

was great fun!:ok:

GBEBZ

24th Jun 2014, 19:44

I did mine today - Compton Abbas, Perranporth, Gloucester, Compton Abbas today - approx 332miles - 4.2 hours - I'm shattered.

Straighten Up

27th Jun 2014, 10:30

Turbulent - I'm so jealous - wish I was back in LB - I flew out of Pacific Air just next to LBFC. The flying in the States is fantastic and I recommend it to everyone. My QXC was Laughlin (Nevada) - Sedona (Arizona) - Grand Canyon - Henderson (Las Vegas). It's got to be the most spectacular trip I've ever done - although trying to climb to 11,500 to join the agreed VFR routes at the Grand Canyon proved too exhausting in a C172 at the end of a long day so after getting a couple of snaps, I descended and left the SVFR area to go to Vegas. Landing at Vegas just after sunset was unforgettable.

Platinum503

26th Jan 2018, 11:01

Does anyone know if you have to shut the engine down or can it be a full stop and taxi back for EASA? Otherwise in your log book the times will look similar to a touch and go?

GBEBZ

28th Jan 2018, 15:24

EASA PartFCL defines cross-country as:

"a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures

Appendix 3 - Training courses for the issue of a CPL and an ATPL page 1127-
also states:

"including a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540 km (300 NM), in the course of which full stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made;"

So... there is your answer... in PartFCL world.

"Full stop" is not (IFAIK) further defined. It could me "comes to a complete halt with the engine running" or could mean "when the engine is off, at the parking area, and the plane is at a full stop"....