RAF service number query

[clicker]

Hi,

I've been doing some research into my family history and as a result found my step fathers service in WWII.

He was a WOP/AG with 107 Sdn and was shot down on 9/6/40 while flying in R3739 a Blenheim IV.

I visited the archives at Kew and the raid he was shot down is the only record of his name in the squadron AIR file, although some entries have no crews listed at all.

This makes me wonder if his was a sad case of joining the RAF on the suggestion of war, going thru the training and then getting smacked down on his first op. Regret to say he's no longer around to ask directly.

His service number was 627xxx and the only info I found was that batch was listed as "1938 Civilians". So not sure if that supports my case or not.

Appears also he got two POW numbers issued which seems strange.

Any thoughts or info welcome.

Thanks

[clicker]

Thanks Milo,

I see that the 101 squadron info only names F/O Buckley, my step father was Sgt E H B Cotton, would they have gone as a complete crew from 101 to 107?

[Milo Minderbinder]

Sorry - I just deleted that post as I realised I had the wrong bloke......

Here it is again for completion.
Can't answer that - maybe someone else can, but let me Google some more


This chap was also on that flight - newly trained, logged in the squadron diary. I guess postings of officers were logged, not those of sergeants....

101 Squadron RAF (http://www.156squadron.com/101Sqn/display_squadronlog.asp?yearz=1940&monthz=02)

"14/02/1940 Wednesday Limited flying only possible. Three Battle aircraft of Target Towing Flight left for Wyton for air firing programmes. One Blenheim aircraft to Waddington for Lorenz practices. F/O C.Y. Buckley posted from No.1 RAF Depot. P/O J.S. King posted from No. 104 Squadron"

101 Squadron RAF (http://www.156squadron.com/101Sqn/display_squadronlog.asp?yearz=1940&monthz=06)
3/06/1940 Monday High level bombing. Night Flying. F/O C.Y. Buckley attached to 107 Sqdn. F/O R.C. Rotherham attached from 107 Sqdn

Shot down 9/06/1940
World War 2 - No. 107 RAF Squadron, May/June 1940 (http://www.epibreren.com/ww2/raf/107_squadron.html#0906)


from 101 Squadron RAF (http://www.156squadron.com/101Sqn/sqnhistory.htm)
"On the declaration of war with Germany 101 Squadron initially deployed to its dispersal airfield, RAF Brize Norton, but after a few days it returned to West Raynham. 101 Squadron's Blenheims lacked the latest modifications and the unit spent the next few months as a training and conversion unit for new Blenheim crews in 2 Group. With the fall of France 101 Squadron became operational, but its officer commanding, Wg Cdr J H Hargroves, and his crew were lost on its first bombing mission on 5th July 1940"

So 101 at the time was a training unit. It looks like your step-dad quite possibly was on his first mission after training. If not first, maybe second or third

[clicker]

Thanks again,

Yes it does seem to be that way and with 101 being a training squadron would also suggest the whole crew moved at the time.

Did have a good google before asking the question and only found the details of the crash as well as a family tree entry by one of his daughters of his first marriage.

Cheers

[Milo Minderbinder]

found this on the 101 website about the third member of the crew
101 Squadron RAF (http://www.156squadron.com/101Sqn/display_squadronlog.asp?yearz=1940&monthz=06)
"7/06/1940 Friday High level and shallow dive bombing programme carried out at Wainfleet.
P/Os A.M. Biden and P. H. Slater posted to 40 Sqdn. P/O C. Campbell posted to 107 Sqdn. 740047 Sgt. C. Bartlam posted to 40 Sqdn. 741354 E. Sarl posted to 107 Sqdn."

Seems quite plausible that all three were trained at 101 and posted within a short time, but so far I can't find a record of your step-dad. But as I said earlier, he was a sergeant, the other two were officers.....

[Milo Minderbinder]

this is the issue of "Flight" magazine in which he and his crew were reported as missing

sgt | p/o | a/c | 1940 | 1922 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1940/1940%20-%201922.html)


and FWIW
this claims to have two records of him, or someone with the same name. One during the war, and what looks like a post-war re-enlistment
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/NameSearch?FirstNamePlaceholderText=First%20name&FirstName=e&FirstNameIncludeSimilar=False&SurnameIncludeSimilar=False&SaveThisSearch=False&RecordDateStartYear=1939&RecordDateEndYear=1945&IncludeRecordsWithoutServiceNumber=True&DiedInActiveService=False&SurvivedActiveService=False&ReceivedGallantryAward=False&MentionedInDespatches=False&RecordType=Ww2&Page=0&RecordsPerPage=0&SurnameNamePlaceholderText=Surname&Surname=cotton

However thats a pay-site and I've no idea how good the data there is. Anyone else know?

[Pontius Navigator]

Clicker, it was common for the mention of, say,"F/O C.Y. Buckley attached to 107 Sqdn" to mean "and crew".

In the V-force not that many years later you were not an individual but 'belonged' to the Captain.

In this context however it could go either way.

You would need to trawl the relevant F540/541 to see if crews were named or not.

[reynoldsno1]

He was a WOP/AG with 107 Sdn
My father was also a WOP/AG in France 1939-40, but, in fact, he wasn't. He was a Cpl clerk at an Air Stores Park, but acted as a part time crew member in both Whitleys & Battles (I know from his logbook). He was never on the squadron strength. This may be why you can't find any mention of him in the F540.

Just a thought ....

[XH175]

Each PoW camp ran its own numbering system.

As men were periodically moved from camp to camp (known as purges) it was pot luck if the man was given a number vacated in a previous purge or permitted to keep the previous camp number.

If he filled in a Mil Intel Returning PoW Question form it would be held at Kew and will list the camps he was held at.

Regards
Ross

[Wensleydale]

My father was also a WOP/AG in France 1939-40, but, in fact, he wasn't. He
was a Cpl clerk at an Air Stores Park, but acted as a part time crew member in
both Whitleys & Battles (I know from his logbook). He was never on the
squadron strength. This may be why you can't find any mention of him in the
F540.

Just a thought ....


Pre-war and early in WW2, the air gunner was not an individual aircrew trade. Gunners were volunteers from the ground branches (usually but not exclusively armourers) and were paid a little extra for flying. This was not popular in the ground trades and gunners were often seen as shirking their proper duties by their immediate superiors. It was also not unusual for gunners to have to "go back to work" after completing a sortie. Gunners wore the "brass Bullet" arm badge at this stage of the war - it was not until around 1941 that the air gunners became aircrew in their own right and awarded the AG flying badge.

This is probably why air gunners were rarely awarded a gallantry award - they were not officially part of the crew and came with the aircraft. A good example are the first RAF WW2 VCs awarded to a 12 Sqn Battle pilot and navigator for the raid on the Meuse bridges in May 1940. The gunner was completely ignored (although the VC was the only posthumous medal that could be awarded at that time).

[langleybaston]

and a MiD could also be posthumous.

Is there any literature on RAF numbering system for ORs?

I am co-author of what is regarded as the best [so far] account of army regimental and army numbers of the infantry 1800 to the present, but the RAF system is a closed book.

My father was 930305, for example, definitely RAFVR, and definitely in by the Blitz.

[XH175]

See here for RAF OR service number blocks.

RAF/RAF OR Service Numbers (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?27-RAF-RAF-OR-Service-Numbers)

Regards
Ross

[clicker]

Thanks for all for the updates and ideas etc.

Much is in line with my thinking but I'll go back to Kew later this year as I have a better idea of what to search for now. May not shed any more light on the subject but if I don't look I'll never know for certain.

Thanks Ron

[Milo Minderbinder]

gravestone of the man who died in your stepfathers crash- P/O C Campbell

http://francecrashes39-45.net/recits_avions/r3739_1.jpg

Recherche de France-Crashes 39-45 (http://francecrashes39-45.net/page_fiche_av.php?id=3842&PHPSESSID=8c814d24b72b1660d0a162a35afa8879)

[clicker]

Thanks Milo

[langleybaston]

See here for RAF OR service number blocks.

RAF/RAF OR Service Numbers

Regards
Ross

Many thanks indeed: so my father volunteered as war broke out, and he never ever told me. He defended Coventry in the Blitz with his barrage balloon and was traumatised by it so that he could never speak of it without grief.