Taildragger course

[Fr. Dougal]

Hi all,

I am looking to do a taildragger and maybe a grass strip course in Scotland or Wales. Can anybody recommend a school?
I'm hoping to do all the flying in four or 5 days, weather dependent of course!

[Agaricus bisporus]

You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how. There's nothing special about it, just a slightly different technique for t/o and landing.

Grass strip? What do you need to know about that? Tarmac is black, grass is green. Farmstrips; again, a ride with someone familiar with them is enough if you feel the need, you did short-field take off and landing in your PPL training, what else do you need?

[dont overfil]

www.scotflightaeros.com (http://www.scotflightaeros.com) at Perth Airport using a modern Decathalon.

Dai Heather-Hays, 01738 551498 at the same airfield in a Pitts.

D.O.

[Pilot DAR]

You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how

Or, on the other hand... find someone with the experience and qualification to train you properly! (as it appears that you are trying to do!).

There is way too much DIY in flight training, why would a person not seek out proper training. Proper tailwheel training is becoming more of a lost art. I have personally watched several taildragger instruction sessions (with a real "instructor" and everything!) go wrong. This "instructor" did this right in front of me, while I was hovering, waiting to pass behind him...

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/1right1wrongtoo_zps4ea45d7b.jpg

I was not properly trained to fly taildraggers, but at the time did not know the difference. It was only after decades of flying them, and taking advice from really experienced taildragger pilots who saw my errors, that I began to get it right. Many pilots and instructors I see can't even land a tricycle properly, how would they ever manage a taildragger properly! I wish I'd had the training done properly in the first place. It is worth your effort, so keep looking....

[dubbleyew eight]

I am a taildragger pilot. I learnt on an Auster J1B.

you will learn a number of landing techniques. a tail high "wheeler", a tail low "3 Pointer" and a wing low "2 pointer" for high crosswind landings.
the last one you may have to learn yourself as a matter of desperation one day. after your training most of your landings will be 3 pointers because they are the slowest and you pull up quickest.

there are 4 things that you need to get right just at the point of landing for a perfect 3 pointer.
1. have the fuselage precisely aligned in the direction of flight.
2. have no sideslip occurring.
3. land at the slowest speed possible, typically with full aft stick or nearly so.
4. have no vertical speed at the moment of touchdown.
if you get all 4 of these right you will grease it on with no bounce.
your instructor can tell you why each of these aspects of the landing is important but basically all the force tendencies that lead to a ground loop are removed by the technique.

groundloops are a big bugaboo but with good technique you'll never experience one. I haven't. btw if you want a really really vicious ground loop just wheelbarrow a cessna or piper in on the nose wheel. that'll shake your confidence!

I warn you that you may be ruined by learning to fly a taildragger. I myself was ruined to the point that I have not flown with a nosewheel since.:ok::ok:
you may come close to tears of frustration, especially if you learn in an Auster, but persist and you'll become a real pilot.:D

[Pilot DAR]

W8 has offered a good post, though there is more beyond that. What [he] says is appropriate for most types of tailwheel aircraft, but not all.

My Thruston Teal taildragger must be wheel landed to get the most consistent good landings. I learned this by happenstance, after many frustrating attempts to three point it. It is a type for which training is virtually non available. Doing wheel landings also greatly reduces loads imposed on the tail wheel assembly, which can be damaging on the Teal. Touch that little wheel at 65 MPH in a three point, possibly with a bounce, and associated loading, or hold it off to less than 40 MPH, and ease it on. It's an easy choice, if you're paying of the maintenance!

When I was trained in the turbine DC-3 (by a pro), I was taught to never three point it. I was once about to allow it to do that, and it was an instant go around. But, I do concede that a DC-3 is outside the normal realm of GA taildraggers. When I used to fly the Tiger Moth, I was taught to avoid three points landings, simply 'cause it had a wooden skid, rather than a tailwheel - no point dragging it down the runway for no good reason. The SM1019 I flew for a while, on the other hand, seemed difficult to wheel land, and with that big prop, I was reluctant to try.

For these reasons, training, which is type appropriate, is a good idea....

[foxmoth]

You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how. There's nothing special about it, just a slightly different technique for t/o and landing.

Yes, and I have flown with a few pilots who have learnt that way or learnt with instructors that have learnt that way, can be quite frightening and many have not been taught wheeler landings. As Pilot DAR says, there are many types that do need treating in their own way, so ideally learn initially on a "generic" Tailwheel that all techniques can be practiced on.

As for farmstrips, again, if you learn PROPERLY, you will learn a lot more about possible hazards - many farm strips have much more involved than just being short!:hmm:

[dubbleyew eight]

Pilot DAR - agreed

one thing that must be borne in mind is that many tailwheel setups are actually diabolical crap. over geared but masked by sloppy springs. some are so bad that they set the techniques needed.

two further things for our novice.
if you stuff up the landing with a bounce, immediately pour the coals on and go around. dont hesitate. 50 feet in the air with speed rapidly washing off after a bounce simply cannot be recovered by full power in many aircraft. you will do the most horrifying crash to the ground in my aircraft. best never to experience it.

dont chop the power off suddenly during the flare. bleed it off gently. it greatly aids a greaser.

if you find that you simply can't land without bouncing try landing on one main wheel. on touchdown some energy will be absorbed in pushing the wings level and this helps to avoid a bounce.

daisy snickers and greasers are the things that absolutely make your day.

pssst. dont tell everyone how much fun it is or they'll all want it.

[Pilot DAR]

many farm strips have much more involved than just being short!

Yes, and then you can consider the differences in other entirely different surfaces. Skis on deep snow, or on bare ice present demands for very different skills yet...

Sorry for hijacking your thread Dougal, but we need to get the whole story out there to everyone...

[cambioso]

"50 feet in the air with speed rapidly washing off AFTER A BOUNCE"

That's ONE HELL of a bounce W8!!
Even I haven't achieved that height after one of my legendary bounces!

Regards,
Jez
P.S. Sorry for the Capitals......I don't know how to make script bold.

[dubbleyew eight]

50 ft in the air

twernt me. I was trying to get a chap up to speed for test flying his Jodel.
whanged it on and did a stupendous bounce ...then froze.
"come on fly the aeroplane"
just froze
"fly the f*****g aeroplane!"
still froze.
"my aeroplane"
full power and try to fly it out. nothing doing. saved in the horrendous crash by Wittman's rear facing spring legs. the prop tips must have come so close.

in the wubbleyew ate the minimum drag speed is computed to be 80 knots.
so a landing around 45 knots is MILES and MILES on the back side of the power curve.
bounce and sit there paralysed and wash the speed off even more and the parasitic drag from the air swirling off the wingtips is so great that you can feel the deceleration.

result is that I will never try to bring people up to speed in my aircraft ever again.

[piperboy84]

Ditto on what DAR said,

Getting proper training is a must, don't faff around trying to teach yourself, that's is a recipe for an expensive mistake.

Suggested reading:
The Compleat Taildragger Pilot. By Harvey S. Plourde

Some of this guys books/vids are quite good also

Tailwheel Training :: Rich Stowell's Aviation Learning Center (http://www.richstowell.com/services/tailwheel-training/)

Edit: If you do get Harveys book pay particular attention to what he calls the "Jounce"

Also Conventional Gear/ Flying a Taildragger by David Robson is worth a read

[foxmoth]

result is that I will never try to bring people up to speed in my aircraft ever again.

This is where a few years instructional experience comes in, I suspect most experienced instructors would have stepped in before the swear words started! :bored:

[Pilot DAR]

I suspect most experienced instructors would have stepped in before the swear words started!

Ah, so true....

I am not an instructor, just a pilot. But, I know some things about flying and landing. There have been several occasions when I have simply been a right seat pax, thinking the guy on the left knew what he was doing ('cause he owned this fancy plane). That assumption has nearly got me killed a few times, when things started going wrong, and left it way too late before I stepped in.

Instead of my early on saying "...have you noticed... could happen shortly", I was trying to be polite and quiet. But, no, he had not noticed. Then it gets too far down the wrong road.... Um, either this guy is going to have to be really good to get us out of this, or I'm about to have to do it myself.... Oh geeze....!!

I always got it back, but sometimes it was not pretty, nor polite. A sudden, completely unbriefed "!!I have control!!" Happily, no one ever objected, as they saw the need too, but it certainly could have introduced a personal conflict, and fairly so.

So, personally, I need more training as to how and when to jump in - so the candidate pilot gets the most of the learning experience, but everything stays safe. In two pilot test flying, we brief the flight, and that works well. But nearly always, I'm flying with a real pro, so these things are not issues. If the pilot is not a pro, that becomes evident in the briefing, so problems are resolved before the flight begins.

But checking out another pilot of mystery skills and recency can be hazardous. There is a balance between respecting their skills (whatever they are, once you figure it), pointing out where they are lacking, and, accepting where they show you that you are lacking!

Tailwheel training is on the scarier side of this sort of training, as things begin to happen very quickly, with little time or space to correct.

[Another_CFI]

Agaricus bisporus

You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how

Flying a taildragger requires differences training, therefore must involve an instructor.

[Maoraigh1]

You'll be doing more than just tailwheel differences training if you go from a Pa38/28-C152/172 to a Decathlon or a Pitts. As your allocating 5 days, consider the instructor and aircraft type before the location. If buying/joining a group you might just get an instructor and use the aircraft you'll be flying..
And check if you've to pay for each landing - it could add a lot to the cost.

[dont overfil]

And check if you've to pay for each landing - it could add a lot to the cost.

No landing fees at Perth with either of the two I mentioned in post #3. Accommodation available on airfield.

D.O.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Fr. Dougal,

Be warned. There is a good deal of poor tail-wheel instruction around being given by properly licenced instructors at legitimate flying clubs/schools.

I have heard of one establishment here in England where they don't even teach cross-wind landings at all!

When you visit training establishments, as a test I suggest you ask them direct, "do you teach wheeler landings"? If the answer is 'no' or 'not usually but we could' or 'we teach the two point landing which is just as good' (it isn't) then walk away.

Some will only teach the two point, one wing down, method. OK for high wing light aircraft in a light to moderate cross wind, but for a full blown, close to limit cross-wind or when landing in a low wing monoplane or biplane you definitely need the wheeler.

Good luck!

BP.

[dubbleyew eight]

Some will only teach the two point, one wing down, method. OK for high wing light aircraft in a light to moderate cross wind, but for a full blown, close to limit cross-wind or when landing in a low wing monoplane or biplane you definitely need the wheeler.

words fail me. your mileage indeed varies.

Fr Dougal you can see lots of variation in advice here.
go do it for real. the decathlon would be a good aircraft to do it in.
An Auster in reasonable nick would be ok as well.

the Pitts is not suitable as a training aircraft for tailwheel endorsements.
too much vision impairment for safe training.

your mileage may vary
mine has been pretty consistent over the past 400 hours though.
tootle pip.

[Fr. Dougal]

Thank you very much for all the info. I'll make a few calls and hopefully get something sorted out.
Looking forward to some grass strip fun.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Dubbleyew eight,

words fail me. your mileage indeed varies.

'Sorry Dubbs; I don't get your drift.

BP.

[shortstripper]

He lost me too???

[Pilot DAR]

I don't get your drift

Good, you're not supposed to drift when landing the taildragger!

[maxred]

the Pitts is not suitable as a training aircraft for tailwheel endorsements.
too much vision impairment for safe training.


+1

Cub or a Chipmunk, and you cannot go wrong. PM me if you require any additional info.

[Silvaire1]

the Pitts is not suitable as a training aircraft for tailwheel endorsements.
too much vision impairment for safe training.

Most of my relatively limited experience is in tailwheel aircraft, but ones with good forward visibility, and I'll second (third?) that! Its a lot easier when you can see where you're going.

An instructor friend of mine just bought a Citabria and other than getting checked out in a new type, I'm using it as an opportunity to learn the aircraft from the back seat too, with him in front. The first landing from the back was 'interesting' - I dropped it in from a foot or more :ouch: :) I'm doing this for the price of fuel only, so in future I'm hoping to be kinder to my friend's plane. The same guy has a Pitts too, so you can imagine where I'm interested in going...

[FlyingKiwi_73]

So having just completed a "conventional gear" rating, i can tell you a felt like a child learning to walk all over again...(i mean even just how to taxi!!) if the wind is anything more than a soft zephyr and straight down the runway i'm still sweating bullets landing the cub. I really cannot understand anybody who can just get in a tail dragger with no instruction and go with out a prang.

I came very close to having the cub swap ends on me and that's with an appropriate adult on board.

I have to say it has improved my tricycle landings immeasurably

[tecman]

I think Max has it about right. Cub or Chippy are nicely behaved aircraft that will still teach you a lot about flying. I did my initial tailwheel endorsement on a Decathlon, which is a delightful aircraft but really too easy to be truly representative of the class. I found this out when I went to an Auster! I am in awe of W8 and the dyed-in the-wool Auster guys. While being able to turn in OK performances in a Tiger Moth or C180, I still harbour ambitions of being able to master the J1 to my satisfaction before my dotage.

[Piper.Classique]

I have to say it has improved my tricycle landings immeasurably

It does, doesn't it?

If you have been properly taught on nosewheel aircraft you will find the transition easier, but even so I will third all who say find a good instructor who will teach you all the techniques, not just the three point landing. You will actiually find landing on grass a lot easier than on tarmac. The easiest taildragger of all, in my opinion, is the piper pawnee. Good view, and a wide track undercarriage of great strength :) Not surprising considering its intended use.

Welcome to the world of real aeroplanes! Mostly uncomfortable, draughty, and let the rain in. A bit like insisting on driving an MGB which can be outperformed by practically any recent small car, which will also drink only half the petrol.

Except you will have more fun, and please allow me to say that it is supposed to be fun! Otherwise why would we do it?

[RobertL]

I was a bit surprised that some schools do not teach 'wheeler' landings, this is presumably on the premise that a three pointer is at a slower speed and is therefore safer? How then do you deal with gusty conditions? Presumably, the differences training is for no wind/no gusts conditions.

TailwheelersJournal.com is a friendly site. I would also add Taildragger Tactics (Sparky Imeson) as a good complement to The Compleat Taildragger Pilot.

[The500man]

the Pitts is not suitable as a training aircraft for tailwheel endorsements.I did mine on the Pitts and I know others that have too. One thing I would say though is that the Pitts isn't really suitable for standard tailwheel training because it is a non-standard technique type. I wouldn't advise anyone to do tailwheel training on it unless it is the aircraft you want to fly/own.

I wasn't taught wheeler landings because it is tougher to get right than three-pointing in the Pitts. The CAA flight manual supplement recommends three-pointing as well.

[Ridger]

Definitely get proper training - did my differences training with a great instructor on the Chipmunk. Don't stop peddling 'till the brakes are on and engine is switched off!! The moment you think you're straight and can relax, you'll be facing the way you came... Not many people have prop driven nosewheel types on their bucket list and with good reason - enjoy!