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bacardi walla
22nd Jun 2013, 07:44
Arriving from Canada, private aircraft, apart from APIS and TSA, is any other permission needed before we land?

cambioso
22nd Jun 2013, 10:15
Your "Location" sums up exactly what else you need before you land...............

bacardi walla
22nd Jun 2013, 10:49
Explain please because that comment makes no sense.

Chinchilla.612
22nd Jun 2013, 20:24
bacardi walla,

On your profile, you have your location set as "Ask the tower !"
I think cambioso is using that as a perhaps too gentle hint to you that you'll need your landing permission in KMSP. Not just from the tower though - you need to contact CBP (Customs & Border Patrol) at your destination airport and advise them of your planned arrival (in addition to filing eAPIS).

Have fun!

ksjc
22nd Jun 2013, 21:37
KMSP Customs does things different than the rest in that the inspector won't meet you at the FBO. You must got to the Customs "ramp" at the airline terminal, park outside an airliner jetway and wait. After you're clear THEN you can taxi to the FBO. Not normal and a bit of a hassle.

bacardi walla
23rd Jun 2013, 07:03
Thanks for the input. The reason I asked is that when we landed, we were told to taxi to a ramp for customs. We were then asked why we did not have a landing permit. We presented the TSA and APIS and the arrogant customs guy said these were no good and asked us why we had not got a landing permit. When asked how we obtain a permit, he walked away to get his supervisor who then promptly said we should pay a $10k fine, cash or cards accepted. We again asked why we need a landing permit when we had landed in Anchorage, then Canada, then at KMSP. After much debate, customs decided they would not fine us and let us taxi to the FBO.

We asked the FBO staff about the landing permit but to be honest, w emay as well have asked the guy in MacDonalds as he clearly had more brain cells.

Having landed previously in many US airports from Canada and not had to have a landing permit, why is KMSP so different and how does one get a permit ?

I have to say also, flying in Iraq or Russia is easier than USA !!

dallas
23rd Jun 2013, 07:16
Are you commercial or private?

Ah you answered that in opening post...

bacardi walla
23rd Jun 2013, 07:37
Private owner flight.

We did call KMSP customs before leaving Anchorage to head into Canada and asked if we needed anything other than TSA and APIS and the officer replied "no you don't".

I hate flying in USA. Too many rules and nobody really knows how to apply them.

duxone
23rd Jun 2013, 11:19
Next time tell the dumb yankee custom officer that you will make an official complain...
They will be more collaborative!:ok:

ksjc
23rd Jun 2013, 12:06
I have used many different airports of entry into the US, including MSP several times, and have never heard of a landing permit requirement.

If you don't carefully follow the expected protocol some inspectors snap and begin to bully. Not giving proper notification, taxiing to the FBO before the Customs ramp or even opening the cabin entry door before the inspector has arrived at the plane can get them started....doesn't take much.

Not saying you did any of this but your experience sounds odd as there is no required landing permit at MSP or any other US public airport I know of.

Word to the Wise: avoid clearing US Customs at any S. Florida airport of entry...always very difficult even on a good day. I'm convinced inspectors who can't get along with others are sent to work there. ALL pax and luggage off, dogs searching the plane, interrogation as luggage is searched, etc. The slightest snag will cause a very long delay. Get yourself an Overflight Permit and clear ANYWHERE else.

galaxy flyer
23rd Jun 2013, 16:15
ksjc

Thanks for the heads-up on KMSP, where would you find that tidbit about going to a customs ramp or terminal jetway?

We used KILM (Wilmington, NC) couple months ago, in and out in 30 minutes coming from Chile. Generally, avoiding big city airports makes it easier, KDLH is supposed to be reasonable, instead of KMSP. But, the absolute worst I've seen is nterior ports that don't see a lot of private planes. KOKC once insisted on shutting down the APU while they inspected the passports of all us--it was 103F outside and soon heat exhaustion was a real possibility.

GF

con-pilot
23rd Jun 2013, 16:42
But, the absolute worst I've seen is nterior ports that don't see a lot of private planes. KOKC once insisted on shutting down the APU while they inspected the passports of all us--it was 103F outside and soon heat exhaustion was a real possibility.


That's because the inspectors that are too strict and overly officious in Florida are sent to OKC. :p

FrankR
24th Jun 2013, 08:14
Everything said so far it true. But to put it into an international context, you can get jerked around most anywhere if you don't follow the procedure that the inspector is looking for.

In Luton, two hours waiting for customs to arrive (at 3AM), in Stanstead, they wouldn't let us take soup through to the aircraft (outbound), In Nice, an insufferable SAFA check, in China, I had a visa refused, in Riyadh, a four hour delay to insure we really were approved to depart.

The USA is simply par for the course, so always call ahead before you leave home base, and call from the airport prior to US entry.

FR

ksjc
24th Jun 2013, 12:03
@GF

I don't know if the MSP CBP location is noted in any reference material...I've never seen it noted anyway. I only found out because prior to departure I always ask both the FBO and the CBP agent on the phone where the meeting spot is.

Come to think of it KTUS, KBOI, KDLH and KINL are some others I have used where you are expected to meet at an inspection site far from any FBO. Always good to check with the FBO during trip planning.

Chinchilla.612
24th Jun 2013, 19:16
bacardi walla,

I've entered the US through MSP before and never needed a "landing permit".

TSA Clearance when not in an N reg aircraft, yes. eAPIS filed, yes. Telephone call to local CBP officer to advise of our arrival, yes (also good to check with them where they'd like us to park on arrival - always take their badge number as a reference).

The only thing I can think of which you don't seem to have mentioned and can get you a potential fine for is if you didn't have a 'transponder' decal for your aircraft? ( https://dtops.cbp.dhs.gov ) But even then, you can normally pay for it on arrival.

AdamFrisch
25th Jun 2013, 00:59
Haven't landed at this particular airport, but recently flew to Vancouver and back. It couldn't have been smoother in my case. If the plane is US registered, this is what you need:

1. eAPIS filing online (dead easy).
2. Call the CBP and tell them what time you will arrive at airport before departing.
3. File a VFR or IFR flight plan. All ADIZ crossings require a flight plan.
4. Make sure you have the international CBP sticker in the window as you can't always buy it off of them and they give you a hard time without it.

Tinstaafl
25th Jun 2013, 12:25
The sticker can be bought online. If it hasn't arrived yet then the receipt is acceptable.

In Florida you need to phone Customs at the airport of entry at least one hour prior to arrival to advise arrival time. This is in addition to eAPIS notification. You should be given the CBP officer's initials when you do. That's in case another officer when you get there can't find your 1 hr notification so you have some way to show you complied.

dc9-32
6th Oct 2014, 14:28
I asked the FBO about arriving from Canada in a non US registered aircraft and they told me:




You are able to clear customs on our ramp. They have a satellite office they occupy when there is a scheduled arrival. You need to contact them for landing rights approval.

deefer dog
6th Oct 2014, 19:17
In Luton, two hours waiting for customs to arrive (at 3AM), in Stanstead, they wouldn't let us take soup through to the aircraft (outbound), In Nice, an insufferable SAFA check, in China, I had a visa refused, in Riyadh, a four hour delay to insure we really were approved to depart.

Frank, the wait in Luton was unusual and shouldn't have happened, might have been expected as the airport was out of hours. The other issues don't relate to customs at all.

Customs in USA is like a lotto. I've had my best experiences in MIA and TEB, and also my worst experiences in the same exact places. Despite the CBP "pledge" advertisement places at all ports of entry, most (but by no means all) of their staff have serious attitude problems.

B200Drvr
7th Oct 2014, 03:14
I agree DD, We had an arrogant tosser CBP agent in Oakland who refused to put boot covers on to walk on the aeroplanes carpet, We had to file a formal complaint about him. Its very hit and miss!!

Old Boeing Driver
7th Oct 2014, 18:05
It's been awhile, but I think KMSP is a "Landing Rights" airport.

See: AirNav: KMSP - Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KMSP)

I think info may be available in the AIM, and certainly from any handler.


The actual law is:
19 CFR 122.14 - Landing rights airport.



CFR (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/122.14?qt-cfr_tabs=0#qt-cfr_tabs)
Updates (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/122.14?qt-cfr_tabs=1#qt-cfr_tabs)
Authorities (U.S. Code) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/122.14?qt-cfr_tabs=2#qt-cfr_tabs)


prev (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/122.13) | next (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/122.15)
§ 122.14 Landing rights airport. (a) Permission to land. Permission to land at a landing rights airport may be given as follows:
(1) Scheduled flight. The scheduled aircraft of a scheduled airline may be allowed to land at a landing rights airport. Permission is given by the director of the port, or his representative, at the port nearest to which first landing is made.
(i) Additional flights, charters or changes in schedule—Scheduled aircraft. If a new carrier plans to set up a new flight schedule, or an established carrier makes changes in its approved schedule, landing rights may be granted by the port director.
(ii) Additional or charter flight. If a carrier or charter operator wants to begin operating or to add flights, application must be made to the port director for landing rights. All requests must be made not less than 48 hours before the intended time of arrival, except in emergencies. If the request is oral, it must be put in writing before or at the time of arrival.
(2) Private aircraft. The pilots of private aircraft are required to secure permission to land from CBP following transmission of the advance notice of arrival via an electronic data interchange system approved by CBP, pursuant to § 122.22 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/122.22). Prior to departure as defined in § 122.22(a) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/122.22#a), from a foreign port or place, the pilot of a private aircraft must receive a message from CBP that landing rights have been granted for that aircraft at a particular airport.

Booglebox
7th Oct 2014, 20:36
It's a good idea to send the CBP station an email / fax with all the flight info, plus the eAPIS transmission number, and then call them to make sure they got it, and get the initials / badge number of the guy you spoke to... and pass that to the crew.
Exhaustive and annoying but pretty watertight procedure IMHO. :8

dc9-32
8th Oct 2014, 06:07
Boogle


I know what to do and how to do it thanks. It doesn't help that the numbers published for CBP don't work and the handler (Signature) are like the mandatory chocolate fire guard that comes with lots of US handlers.


Your comment "Exhaustive and annoying " sums it up though. Getting info from most US handling agents is near on impossible as they either can't be bothered to reply or are clueless when they do.


I managed to find a number for CBP at KMSP and spoke with an officer there. He gave me the low down on requirements and an email address. He also added "we don't normally use email". Useful when the fax number doesn't work.

Old Boeing Driver
8th Oct 2014, 14:40
The handlers I was referring to in my post were the likes of Air Routing, Universal, Baseops, etc.

Many local FBO's at international arrival locations are really clueless when if comes to entry requirements.

dc9-32
8th Oct 2014, 18:27
I'm not using a US based "handler" but I get the idea.

deefer dog
9th Oct 2014, 00:11
Thread drift admittedly, but I used Universal for four years for international ops before I discovered that I was being overcharged at every turn. There are many companies that offer a much better service without the added percentages that they stick on to every bit of billing.

I made the mistake of believing that they were the only people that know ops outside of USA...I have since learn t that this is not the case, and despite their insistence that they are the only people who can fix short term permits/problems fastest this is not my experience.

I do appreciate however that if you don't fly to EU, Africa or outside of the US regularly it is tempting to stick with a company you know. My advise - open your eyes, don't get any charges added to an account of Universal, and believe that they do have competitors who offer much more, for much less!

Perhaps another thread is overdue on this topic.

dc9-32
9th Oct 2014, 07:12
I'm with deefer dog 100% on that ! The big 3 or 4 US companies are becoming criminals in what they charge.

Trimup
21st Oct 2014, 14:15
Coming to Minnesota from Alaska or western Canada you want to stop and clear at Hector International KFAR in beautiful Fargo North Dakota. CBP just built a new building adjacent to the jet center, jet center has been refurbished to support all the new oil shale activity. Friendly and quick, especially for us Minnesotans if the hockey team "formerly known as the Fighting Sioux" has recently beaten the Gophers, Bulldogs, Huskies, Mavericks, or Beavers. I know the old countries are so big on soccer they think it is football but here hockey is what matters. Jet center has solid tech and reasonable fuel plus surprisingly good coffee and fresh sticky buns as big your head. If final destination is in the Minneapolis St Paul area then head for Holman field KSTP granted 14/32 is their longest at about 6500' but it is never high and seldom hot. They value biz jet activity or go to KMSP and get treated like you are a nuisance getting in the way of Delta's hub ops.

dc9-32
22nd Oct 2014, 05:51
Is KSTP an airport of entry with full customs facility ? My records show not.

Trimup
22nd Oct 2014, 13:52
"If final destination is in the Minneapolis St Paul area then head for Holman field KSTP granted 14/32 is their longest at about 6500' but it is never high and seldom hot. They value biz jet activity or go to KMSP and get treated like you are a nuisance getting in the way of Delta's hub ops."


Sorry, I meant after a stop in Fargo, I thought the then made it clear but reading it again, it doesn't. Much quicker to stop at Hector and then head to Holman for ops where final destination is in Minneapolis/St Paul rather then sitting on the tarmac waiting for CBP at KMSP.