CTC Easyjet Scheme or OAA Fully Paid

[Mark1988]

Iv been reading this forum the last few days after signing up and getting through to the CTC EZY Assessment Centre in the following week.

However, I am a little concerned now, especially from the EZY Flexicrew contract and the overall take home money in the first few years before a permanent contract. It seems to me this low pay scheme (£1200 for first 18 months and so on until a permanent contract when bond payments are given) is a justification for the 69k bond.

Some are suggesting overall the price difference long term is not very much different than paying for it all yourself due to the fact you are paid significantly more once after private training compared to a cadet EZY pay which seems minimal.

My question is simple. If I had the means to go to OAA and pay for the flight training and type rating completely, would this be the advised route to take instead of the CTC schemes for instance?

If so, once completed, obviously there would be no guarantee of a job, but would the pay once joining an airline be alot greater than if on the CTC EZY scheme for example. Is there a specific level you could join that would be more beneficial. Oxford would be ATPL training and not MPL i understand.

Thanks for any help and guidance, really appreciated.

[Bealzebub]

I think you misunderstand what the bond is.

The £69,000 (or whatever it currently is,) is the cost of your training other than the foundation course. You pay it in stages, and it in turn does one of two things. At the conclusion of your course it pays for that course of training. Alternatively (as it is packaged in this fashion,) it can be transferred to a "sponsoring" airline company. When it is transferred, it is in effect being bought by that company. What then happens depends on the company who has bought it. What often happens is that the bond is used to allow the cadet pilot to sacrifice a corresponding amount of their annual salary in return for the repayment of bond monies. This has significant tax advantages. It also shifts the "sponsorship" risk burden to the trainee, who clearly will not benefit unless they progress to a dovetailed employment contract as a result of an airline placement. Some airlines give the cadet an option of either swapping salary for bond repayments (for anything up to 7 years,) or simply taking a regular salary (at the published cadet level.) In the case of the latter, the bond is simply written off as training costs, and there is no tax advantage to the cadet.

During the placement period (and again it very much depends on the airline) the cadet often receives no basic salary, but usually does receive their allowances from the airline. This is supplemented by a repayment to the cadet from their bond monies, of around £1200 for 6-8 months. Some airlines will also pay for the cadets type rating.

You need to understand that the terms and conditions of placement and any subsequent employment, vary from company to company. Each contract is different, and you cannot know what may or may not be on offer to you (if anything,) upon successful conclusion of your own training course. Clearly some placements are much better than others.

Fundamentally, the £69,000 "bond" is to pay your training costs. You pay this, and in turn it pays those costs. Its advantages very much depend on the offers that might be available to you upon conclusion of that course. To that end it would be wise to base your planning on the basic concept.

[Mark1988]

Thanks for clearing this up.

What I just need an answer too is, if i did OAA, paid the total amount with no loan etc, would i be in a better position than if i went through the CTC Ezy scheme? Obviously i understand the non job guarentee.

It just seems to me if you work it all out long term,costs and payments, salarys, overall it seems to pretty much equal out.

Would i be able to join if through Oxford (if a job existed) the airline at First Officer status and not cadet as I would gain the ATPL at OAA.

"Pro pilot....cadets from the MPL with CTC will spend at least 2 years as flexicrew, then with a permanent contract they will be paid a cadet salary with £1000/month bond repayments (so chances are the cadet scale will be adjusted by £12k"

My other question with the CTC scheme, is that once you are on a permanent contract (potentially after 2 years), does the bond repayment of £1000 a month come on top of your base cadet salary? I heard people saying it was included in your salary.

Thanks.

[Bealzebub]

For the specifics you would need a reply from somebody wholly familiar with this airlines tied cadet programmes. Broadly speaking, I think you are right in that either MPL programme probably "equals out" in the end.

What I just need an answer too is, if i did OAA, paid the total amount with no loan etc, would i be in a better position than if i went through the CTC Ezy scheme? Obviously i understand the non job guarentee.

Don't confuse loan with bond. They are two different things. With either school you can pay the bond monies from your own resources, or whatever other vehicle may be available to you. This is what I was pointing out in the earlier reply. The "bond" is a product that enables your training costs to be recovered in a more tax efficient manner. You will be paying them in any event whether that be by your own funds or via those you have borrowed. Clearly if you have access to those funds without the need to borrow, you would be in an a better financial position through either programme.

Would i be able to join if through Oxford (if a job existed) the airline at First Officer status and not cadet as I would gain the ATPL at OAA. You join as a First Officer in any event. However at this level of experience that would be through a cadet programme. You allude to the MPL programmes, which are tied programmes in any event, so I am not entirely sure what you are asking? If you are asking whether you would be able to satisfy recruitment as a "direct entry" F/O when such vacancies are advertised, then no you wouldn't. The MPL programme is not structured in that way. The regular fATPL integrated programmes, would provide you with a CPL/IR, and you would be free to make whatever applications were available. However, the point of these programmes through these schools, is that they are usually structured to specific airlines cadet programmes. Finding airline employment at this level of experience is extremely difficult, and where it is available it is usually through one of these airline cadet programmes.
"Pro pilot....cadets from the MPL with CTC will spend at least 2 years as flexicrew, then with a permanent contract they will be paid a cadet salary with £1000/month bond repayments (so chances are the cadet scale will be adjusted by £12k"
I am not sure where this quote is from, and again it would require a reply from somebody with specific knowledge of this airlines cadet programme, however I would assume that is broadly correct. The salary you would receive would be the same gross figure, however the substitution of bond repayments would be more tax advantageous, than foregoing such arrangements.

My other question with the CTC scheme, is that once you are on a permanent contract (potentially after 2 years), does the bond repayment of £1000 a month come on top of your base cadet salary? I heard people saying it was included in your salary

Same criteria as previous reply, but again the bond repayment is likely to be in sacrifice of the equivalent salary sum. These are often longer term arrangements (although they can be stopped but not subsequently reversed,) and apply equally to all salary scales. For example, if you were able to utilize a bond repayment scheme, the substitution would apply to your cadet salary, your F/O's salary and your Captains salary, for the agreed period (or sooner if you, the company, or HMRC elected to terminate it.)

[Mark1988]

Many thanks for the reply, its really useful what you wrote indeed.

It seems the best/safest route is to go upon one of these schemes..

Could someone just confirm that the total cost with the Easyjet Scheme (Total paid upfront) at CTC is roughly £109k whilst at Oxford the total is 87/90k (with accommodation)

The OAA Parc hourly rate also seems to be a little higher too.

Thanks

[doz111]

The cost of CTC and OAA scheme are roughly the same I believe.

CTC is £100,000 + living expenses (food/petrol)
OAA is £90,000 + accommodation costs + living expenses (food/petrol)

Accommodation costs + bills over 18 months must be around £10,000, hence the price of both schemes are the same.

[goosemaverick]

Mark, the pay rate for oaa and ctc is the same, its just that as an oaa pilot you are self employed by parc and therefore not subject to monthly tax deductions (have to do it at the end of the financial year) -the headline money looks more. Ctc you are employed by them and they make deductions for you - if you work it out they are exactly the same to the pound.

[Contact Approach]

Parc guys have to pay almost 30k for the type rating if I understand correctly; CTC guys much less. Could be mistaken though.

[contacttower118.2]

Basically his take on things was that unless your on an airline associated scheme, don't even think of starting training.

Great that you spoke to a real EZY pilot, did he give a reason for that statement?

[Talewind]

I would say it's fairly obvious: the chances of landing a job if you haven't completed a "tagged" scheme are slim at best.

It's my understanding that CTC and OAA have self sponsored courses starting every month of the year and FTE several months of the year.

Your comment would suggest that most of the candidates passing through these schemes are unemployed, or perhaps employed as something other than a pilot.

Do you really believe this to be the case?

[contacttower118.2]

I would say it's fairly obvious: the chances of landing a job if you haven't completed a "tagged" scheme are slim at best.

As much as I appreciate your response I was hoping to hear an answer given by the pilot in question.

What was really behind my question was the apparent contradiction in what he said, that on the one hand don't start training unless on a tagged course and on the other saying that easy have a constant demand for pilots.

CTC supply the majority of easy's cadets and a lot must be from the generic Wings course because the numbers of tagged cadets are quite few....

Do you really believe this to be the case?

It's pretty hard to know who to believe on here isn't it?

john_smith I think I have read has been through the Wings course (please correct if wrong!) so presumably has some authority on this. Yet there are plenty of other people claiming to be CTC grads who have a more positive outlook (the actual chances of a placement not necessarily T&Cs etc).

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of CTC Wings cadets get jobs eventually it is just a question of how long they wait in the hold pool and whether when taken it is a permanent departure...

If someone could keep a running thread on the hold pool situation that would give people a better idea...

[momo95]

Well John Smith, its obviously not obvious to many people that starting an integrated programme on your own is suicidal.

For contacttower - The reason he gave was because other than ryanair and very few other carriers, pilots aren't needed, and where they are, alot of experience is required or the airline has its own cadet programme in place to satisfy its requirements (e.g easyjet Mpl, Ba fpp). So for the apparent contradiction, i judge that he was implying the MPL programme would fulfill EZY's requirements. (not untagged pilots). He also said that Flybe (who i thought employed many low hour pilots) are starting to target older/more experienced pilots as they've had enough of people using them to go elsewhere and dumping them at any opportunity

[contacttower118.2]

So for the apparent contradiction, i judge that he was implying the MPL programme would fulfill EZY's requirements. (not untagged pilots). He also said that Flybe (who i thought employed many low hour pilots) are starting to target older/more experienced pilots as they've had enough of people using them to go elsewhere and dumping them at any opportunity

OK thanks, that's a bit clearer now.

My sense about easyJet is that no one really knows - they have just ordered more planes, although most are replacements for existing ones I believe. More fundamentally though there seems to be a big disagreement between easy's founder and the current management over how much more growth can be squeezed out of the European market. Who is right? I guess time will tell. Certainly the continued flat lining of the Eurozone is not helping...

There could be more growth if easy's strategy of eating into legacy passengers works but how much mileage is there in that really...?

[momo95]

Yes thats very true, I cant imagine many other industries are as unpredictable as this one. The thing that people just have to watch out for is the clever advertisement from the FTOs regarding their placement statistics, if it's too good tobe true it is !!!

[altiplano]

You guys are such suckers!

Pay to train, Pay to work... I hope you get big bottles of lube included with your uniforms...

Why are you doing it? Are you getting a leg up on the next guy?

[contacttower118.2]

Well do you have a better idea? :suspect:

Unfortunately that is what things have come to in Europe, expensive integrated courses and paying for type ratings...:E

altiplano I take it you are from the US/Canada?

[momo95]

Your comment doesn't fit anywhere into the conversation we were having. If you haven't anything constructive to say then DON'T SAY ANYTHING, the only Sucker here is clearly you !

[altiplano]

But I do have something constructive to say...

Stop taking it! The BS conditions I mean. EasyJet, Ryan Air etc are all making big money and you guys are paying to apply, paying for the type training, paying for the job... why? If everyone stopped do you think they would cease operations? Of course not. They screw you because you are willing to be screwed!

Am I a sucker? 5 type ratings from the DH8 to the B777 and I never spent a dime. Always was paid to train because it is a job! I wouldn't do it for free, let alone pay! You guys need some serious leadership to get you out of where your at - are you really happy with these "schemes"?

[jaguar1223]

altiplano has a point here
why not use all this money and go for an MD degree , at least its a professional job
lets face it , at the end of the day is a monkey job (a driver) , that why companies r treating you like that

[contacttower118.2]

why not use all this money and go for an MD degree , at least its a professional job

Oh yes that's right I'll spend another c.£30,000 (prob a lot more now that tuition fees are up and MD is much longer) on another degree for something that I never wanted to become. What a splendid idea. :ugh:

Am I a sucker? 5 type ratings from the DH8 to the B777 and I never spent a dime. Always was paid to train because it is a job! I wouldn't do it for free, let alone pay! You guys need some serious leadership to get you out of where your at - are you really happy with these "schemes"?

Of course we are not happy about these "schemes". All very well to jeer from a North American perspective but right now in the UK these schemes represent an entry into the profession that is very hard to come by. Every time one is announced thousands apply...come on, you don't realistically think that someone can just stand up and stop this wannabe army at the drop of a hat? The only hope was those already in the profession...but they have sat by and watched...:E

At the end of the day they get away with putting so much cost on the applicant because they can. The low cost carriers are on a solid financial footing and loads of people want to work for them. After a few years of pain their Ts&Cs are not too bad...that is how they get away with it. Pain today with reward in the future.

There is very little "self improver" hierarchy left in Europe like there is in North America, it is often either the airlines, instructing on barely livable pay or nothing. The airlines know this, hence the era of large flight school contracts like easy/CTC and the general stranglehold that the large integrated schools have on the industry. I don't like it but I don't see it ending any time soon. :hmm:

[momo95]

I agree, I have always believed that the blame for the current farce lies firmly with those that first accepted the current way of doing things. Had they all rejected, i'm sure things would be better today. For the forseeable future though, with thousands applying to these schemes the airlines and FTOs have no reason to stop the current method and they won't.
Finally, N.America is alot worse than the uk for wannabes. I mean how many american airlines offer schemes that can get you in the right hand seat of a jetliner in 18 months ?, fair enough the pay is horrific for the first few years, but i'd rather have that starting salary working on an A320 than slaving away in some flight school with your only hope of getting out of it being a turboprop @ around $12,000 dollars a year. For the current moment, you either suffer for the first few years or go look for something other career.
Personally however my dream has only ever been to be a pilot and it aint't gonna change. I would much rather spend the £45,000 that I would doing a degree in something that I have absolutely no interest in (leading to a very boring life for me) on flight training leading to my dream job.

[jaguar1223]

Oh yes that's right I'll spend another c.£30,000 (prob a lot more now that tuition fees are up and MD is much longer) on another degree for something that I never wanted to become. What a splendid idea.

yeah I wanted to become a prince but when I found out that my dad isn't a king I gave up , between dream and obsession is a fine line.
your choise , keep throwing money with some hope or walk away from the poker table and invest in realistic thing
good luck in both ways
ps : MD degree was an example

[contacttower118.2]

To be honest jag I don't really get what you are on about. Most of the people on here what to become pilots, myself included. That costs money and there are varying degrees of certainly attached to that money. We all know that.

No qualification guarantees a job, I have plenty of friends with degrees in this and that that don't have jobs either since graduating. Flying is no different. Call it a poker table if you will...

Anyway if we could get back to discussing easyJet CTC/OAA I'm sure the original poster would appreciate that...

[momo95]

Well there is also a very fine line between wanting to be a pilot and a prince, with one being impossible from the moment of birth, and the other being a possibility with the right work rate. Therefore it's ludicrous trying to compare the two.
Back to original post, I don't think I can say much more than dont apply for an untagged integrated scheme. Of course OAA etc will continue to advertise their courses as being the bee's knees, but an example I think i saw on here about OAA was an ad they ran, claimed to have placed 156 pilots with ryanair, when the sad reality was that over 400 graduated from them that year, you do the math :)