Best years are gone

[Finningley Boy]

RAF aircrew at Leuchars base say they are being left hungry by new food rules - Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/raf-aircrew-leuchars-base-say-1902203)

A further reminder for why I wouldn't want to be in the R.A.F. or any of H.M. Forces today!:(

FB:)

[Wander00]

Someone needs to look at the fire risk assessment and judge against the morale implication of taking his ADVICE! looks like a bit of LEADERSHIP required.

[langleybaston]

Why do I remember Messes which would have been freezing cold after 1st May [or was it 1st April?] but just about everyone had a heater in the room?
The next problem was showers/ bath room/ bogs and down to a meal in an overcoat.

At Brize, my last sojourn, I had heater, microwave, TV, radio and lots besides.

The military covenant is rather one-way these days.

[MSOCS]

Sadly this isn't restricted to just one base and you have to applaud LEU for complaining.

The civilian company has all but completely destroyed Mess life and most these days choose to eat out.

Would love to see their annual profit and loss returns over the next few years.

[Roland Pulfrew]

PAYD/SAYS - no-one could have predicted this coming, could they? Apart from all of those middle ranking SNCOs and officers who predicted that it would destroy catering on station but were overruled by the VSOs who had signed up to SAYS. And those members of the SAYS implementation team who had to try and make it work and who had lots of surveys that proved that this is what the junior ranks and JOs wanted. Be careful what you wish for...........

[ShyTorque]

Talk about "big brother" stupidity. How many MOD accommodation blocks have burned down in the past due to this dreadfully dangerous "fire risk" :rolleyes:

It smacks more of a policy issue so the catering company gets a captive market.

If the fire alarm system is faulty by being too sensitive, get the company who installed it to fix it so it works properly. :ugh:

[Wander00]

We'll be back to dormitory rooms 'ere long, together with station parades on Saturday mornings. What is the situation with Army and RN messes/wardrooms?

[MSOCS]

At the end of the day it boils down to choice and I agree with ShyTorque that this smacks more of bolstering the audience for the civilian company than saving lives.

My opinion, of course!

[Pontius Navigator]

What staggers me is that FB was still in shorts when PAYD was first muted. He has probably just started secondary school when it was initially rolled out. Rightly identified nearly 40 years ago as SAYS it was muted that training establishments such as Halton would continue to serve food on demand :).

PAYD was a predictable offshoot of the military salary. It is unfair if you stop my pay for food I don't eat so that those that eat every meal benefit.

Now, full circle, as stated, people go out to eat or bring food in to cook themselves.

[November4]

He said the decision was made because the fire alarm is very sensitive – in some cases the steam released from opening a shower door triggered the system.

Showers hot enough to generate steam? Some things have improved then :ouch:

[langleybaston]

this smacks more of bolstering the audience for the civilian company

So they listen to the food instead of eating it?

Now that is a terrible waste of money.

[Pontius Navigator]

I see the standard of reporting is up with the best of the Daily Snail:

Microwaves, toasters and kettles have been banned from airmen and women’s rooms at RAF Leuchars after being deemed a fire risk.

Airmen are now aircrew.

I wonder if they have computers, TVs, chargers etc of have they been banned too?

When was the last fire in a barrack block or SLAM caused by overheated electrics?

[Pontius Navigator]

this smacks more of bolstering the audience for the civilian company

So they listen to the food instead of eating it?

Snap and crackle at breakfast, pop extra?

Bubble and squeak?

Bombe surprise? Boom boom

[gr4techie]

There is no civilian fire legislation that forbids you to cook in SLA.

Even student halls of residence can have cookers.

The ban at Leuchars is blatantly a made up order.

[TomJoad]

Don't see what the problem is just ignore it. I'm sure there are lots of things that shouldn't be in the room!

[NutLoose]

So out of interest on nights at Brize married guys were entitled to free meals because obviously they couldn't go home and cook at 3am, so I take it the days of seeing how many puddings one could eat has gone, one guy had about 6 or 7 quite regularly

[ralphmalph]

Nutloose,

Duty meals were done and dusted in 2003. The rank and file moaned about the old standard food rate for years to the AFPRB...."I pay 3.24 at the weekend and I'm not here"etc

Then PAYD came and we are fooked.....no chefs left (gone as a saving)

Short opening hours (we are only contracted to be open for so long....I dont care if they are night flying)

Messes serving ****e food that is a disgrace to the institute that it the WO's and Sgt's and Offrs Messes.

Under PAYD every station/camp ISTR was required to have facilities for service personnel to prepare food outside of hours due to the constraints of the contract.....

What has happened?

[Rigga]

Probably nothing to do with a "Fire Risk" at all. More to do with the lack of food being bought in the Messes and the lack of caterers "milking machine" profits being made.

It does make me wonder if any former "Senior Staff" joined that company too?

If I recall correctly the new Catering Contracts effectively banned all Tea-Bars and Butty swindles in all Squadrons/Sections as they were seen as "Competition". (I dont know how successful that was)

It is just an extension of the "poor" Contractors power to make all singlies eat in the messes too. Watch this space for attempts to ban service personnel from eating outside the camp gates.

I believe it was only gritted teeth that got SPAR to remain on most Camps...but for how long?...and then watch the "local" prices rise...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

SLAM blocks do have facilities to cook; that article even says that there are cookers/microwaves etc permitted in "certain communal areas" or something like that, exactly the same as student halls of residence as someone quoted. Seems the ban is just extended to personal cooking devices in individual rooms.

That said, it's a case of reaping what you sow, isn't it? I remember all those people up in arms that the £100 a month they paid for the daily food charge was wasted, and they'd rather have the option like they did for lunch. Now they do, and it's awful :(

[ralphmalph]

5F6B.............nail on the head!

[BEagle]

Meals, mail and money. Remember that?

Meals - totally buggered under the contractorisation system. Why should 'PAYD' and contractorisation be synonymous?

Mail - thank heavens for e-mail and other social media out of the MoD's grip.

Money - for how long now has pay been frozen?

:mad:

[downsizer]

If I recall correctly the new Catering Contracts effectively banned all Tea-Bars and Butty swindles in all Squadrons/Sections as they were seen as "Competition".

You don't recall correctly. It was never in the contract and has never happened.

SLAM blocks do have facilities to cook

Just SLAM though, and even then SSOs can be very restrictive in what is allowed. And what about people at Leu (and other stations) that aren't in SLAM? What can they do....fcuk all!!

[Out Of Trim]

In my last tour of Brize in 1991 I had a Sandwich Toaster bought from the NAAFI and a Kettle, Tumble Dryer etc in Corporals Accomadation. Then, and throughout my service from 1979 the RAF Mess Chefs in the Lower Ranks Mess were all superb.

We had great food! what the hell went wrong?


If still in, I would disregard these so-called Fire Regulations!

[NutLoose]

I feel for you, the meals at most of the stations I served at were excellent, Odiham was hit and miss, but Bruggen and Brize were excellent...

I remember having an excellent Ham Salad at Odiham, 1/2 way through it and turning over the ham, I was suprised to find it was ham AND eggs.... Lots of them :( funnily enough when I pointed out to the Warranty Officer he decided to not let anyone else enjoy them.. Their field catering was superb though.

Brize we would have Tea at about 6pm that was our Breakfast, start work at then a meal at 11pm which was a full lunch etc then our Tea at 3am, then most had Breakfast again before going to bed lol..

Plus the line had an excellent tea bar at Brize and if you wanted there was often a ready supply of free Dulles Burgers etc off the jets.

So what do they do for meals now in the field?

BTW I take it this is a sign of the quality of the food at Lossie

New KFC restaurant opens in Elgin and immediately causes traffic chaos as motorists queue at drive-through - Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/new-kfc-restaurant-opens-elgin-1963241)


:O

[Bob Viking]

This all reminds me of when I was a student at Valley in 2002.
The OM was being refurbished so several of us ended up in MQs instead. We paid the same rate as everyone else and were, of course, still expected to eat in the mess. Since our MQs were counted as a 'mess annex' we were subject to mess fire regs. So, you guessed it, the first thing they did was to come round and remove the cookers from the kitchens. You can also guess what happened next. We went straight to the local second hand shop to buy cheap cookers to put in the gaps left behind.
Now I'm no expert on H&S rubbish but I was never quite sure why a family could be trusted to use the cooker in the house but the minute we moved in it became far too dangerous!
Bunch of @rse.
BV:mad:

[NutLoose]

They moved some guys into the old Quarters at Brize near the garage, visiting a mate I was surprised to see all the windows open, asking why he explained the heating only had two settings off and full belt, so they had it running 24/7 and regulated the temperature by opening the windows, I believe estates had kittens when they got the bills in. :E

When I was at Halton they had an entry of i think Omanis arrive and were shown their 6 man rooms on Friday and left to their own devices over a holiday, come the following week when the block Sgt visited to see how they were getting on he was staggered to find the room now sported fully fitted top of the line Kitchen appliances, a huge great TV, new furniture and it had all been plumbed and wired in, one of their daddies was very very wealthy and he had gone shopping to improve their lot which included a load of electricians etc getting paid well to fit it all lol. It didn't stay.

[gr4techie]

BTW I take it this is a sign of the quality of the food at Lossie

New KFC restaurant opens in Elgin and immediately causes traffic chaos as motorists queue at drive-through - Daily Record

It just goes to show how backward, remote and dull Elgin is, if people queue for miles in mass hysteria to try a KFC drivethru.

If deep fried mars bar was not unhealthy enough, now another fast food place to add to the wasteline.

[Laarbruch72]

We had great food..... what the hell went wrong?

Everybody bought sandwich toasters like you did, then microwaves, then eventually the vocal majority made a lot of noise about being forced to pay for food that they weren't using. The MoD listened, there were discussions, a few good arguments against, but the vocal majority got what they wanted, which was to spend 200 quid a month on pasta in sauce packets and batchelors super noodles for their evening meal rather than 120 a month on 3 decent(ish) meals a day. The objectors are being proven right but it's come to pass.
Be careful what you wish for is the lesson here I feel. This was user led, not forced on a hugely unwilling RAF.

[Biggus]

At least 2 people have said something to the effect of "disregard/ignore these fire regulations". That is fine until the fire alarm goes off, the Fire Service come round to investigate, at which point the person found to be in breach of the regulations is charged.....

It would appear that there are designated cooking areas in the communal accommodation. One has to ask why people can't organize their lives so as to use these for their intended purpose?





Having said that, I'm not defending PAYD, which I personally consider to be appalling, and to have had a highly negative impact on morale. It's ironic that the people who objected so strongly to "paying for meals they didn't eat" had probably either retired, or got married and moved out of communal service accommodation, by the time PAYD finally arrived!

[smujsmith]

"Be careful what you wish for is the lesson here I feel. This was user led, not forced on a hugely unwilling RAF."

Laarbruch72 has a point on this one. I remember that most of the "back end" of my time in the mob, running a second line team at Lyneham, was spent listening to young lads and girls complaining about having to pay for meals they were not eating. It seems they got their wish and are now not very happy about it. "talis vita est" as they say. I can never remember having a bad meal in any of the service messes I used throughout my career 69 - 99. Maybe I was just lucky.

Smudge

[downsizer]

It would appear that there are designated cooking areas in the communal accommodation. One has to ask why people can't organize their lives so as to use these for their intended purpose?


There aren't though, thats the problem. Only the top level SLAM blocks have an area. So some have limited cooking facilities and others have none.

[Biggus]

Fair enough - thank you for a polite and informative reply that didn't bite my head off!!

[Pontius Navigator]

And like all progress there is little scope for reverting to what had gone before.

[Always a Sapper]

It may be because, back in the mid 90s someone at RAF Leuchars set their kitchen on fire while doing a roast lunch...

The fire fighters on shift at the time didnt have far to go... Once they got through the smoke and on the appliance that is. They didnt even get to drive out the station, just ran a hose through the door :D

Rumour had it they were all in the crew room watching telly as the roast spuds (put under the grill, still in a pan of oil to keep warm) took the kitchen out

The smoke alarm for some odd reason failed (works better with battery), it was the smoke coming through the serving hatch that sort of gave the game away.

It made the local rag and the troops favorite read at the time, The Sun. They didnt get many offers of fire prevention advice from the civvie brigades honest... :E

[switch_on_lofty]

I've stayed in Wardrooms (Officers' Mess) in Yeovilton, Culdrose, Shawbury, Cranwell, Dishforth, Collingwood, Sultan, Excellent, Nelson and BRNC in the last 6 years. Although some were ostensibly SLAM blocks they were definitely fitted "for but not with" kitchen equipment. Often a kitchen with worktops, cupboards and possibly a fridge or microwave but no cooker so nothing you could cook healthy meals with regularly. Also if you're only on a short course are you supposed to bring a set of pans, knives etc with you? Halton was the same -ve fridge and microwave!

[TomJoad]

Hell's teeth are we honestly saying that we do not have the wit, creativity nor intent to to sort some kind of "self service" facility out in blocks/mess accom to allow basic meals to be cooked by troops. We may as well pack up and go home. If this is the case then the question posed by the op, in my opinion, is yes the best years are gone. :ugh:

[NutLoose]

Would this not swing the other way, if they were installed and Scroggins sterilising / drying his underwear in the microwave set fire to the place, could the other occupants then sue the MOD over lack of warnings about microwaving g etc.. as the MOD would be responsible for the equipment.

The other thing is your cooking on a wok say and the damn thing bursts into flames, a quick departure banging the fire alarm as you leave.... You could then deny all responsibility, at least a fire in your room you are sort of banged to rights.

[TomJoad]

Would this not swing the other way, if they were installed and Scroggins sterilising / drying his underwear in the microwave set fire to the place, could the other occupants then sue the MOD over lack of warnings about microwaving g etc.. as the MOD would be responsible for the equipment.

The other thing is your cooking on a wok say and the damn thing bursts into flames, a quick departure banging the fire alarm as you leave.... You could then deny all responsibility, at least a fire in your room you are sort of banged to rights.

You make a fair point NutLoose. But I would have thought some form of instruction on "do and don'ts" at march in coupled with appropriate warning signs of prohibited action would address the first point. At the end of the day our boys and girls are encountering and coping with far hazardous process at work - they are in the main trustworthy and competent! Anyway, domestic fires can happen in just the same way in a MQs. All that aside the simple answer is if it can be done in student accomm, nurses accomm etc then why not within the MOD! But I do accept your point, it just needs somebody to give enough to sort it out.

[thing]

I've been out too long to enter the pay as you go (or whatever it's called) debate but I've successfully not managed to burn any of my houses down that I've lived in for the last 35 married years whilst cooking.

Are we saying that some members of the the armed forces are incapable of operating a cooker without fatal results? If so, why are they in the armed forces?

Mind you I was at a NATO facility in Norway once with kitchen facilities and the crew of a large aircraft with a radar on top did put washing up liquid in the dishwasher with fairly predictable results, so I withdraw my previous comment. A spoon would have confused them.

[500N]

TomJoad

"But I would have thought some form of instruction on "do and don'ts" at march in coupled with appropriate warning signs of prohibited action would address the first point."

We had those at every miliatry facility i ever went to in Australia, they were called "Standing Orders" or "Routine Orders" and were pinned on every notice board and was a must read for anyone who came in to stay.

I think they also had weekly or monthly updates handed down by the OC.

System worked well.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

And like all progress there is little scope for reverting to what had gone before.

Ah, the wisdom....because no one in authority these days has the courage to say to say "I got it wrong".

It always has to be "We have made great progress with these changes, but there is room for further improvement"..which will mostly, but ineffectively, try to reproduce what we had before.

[mymatetcm]

When many years ago people wanted the money back for food etc there was no means to do so unless you were a shifty and could claim x amount of days food monies back. With the introduction of JPA everybody had the facilty to claim missed meals back etc. So by default the chaps who wanted the cash could claim it back and then PAYD came along, "Shennaningans"

PAYD is could value for what you spend in real terms however the quality and portions leave a lot ot be desired. After being told what i clould have and couldnt have for breakfast I just said fill my plate and i will pay what it costs, " We can't do that you have to have the core or a la carte"

Most staff are leaving and the rest going on strike, and with hardly any RAF Chefs leftwho will cook then? "

Sorry chaps by a microwave and fend for your selves the regs have had to change regarding cooking in your Mess !!!!

[TomJoad]

500N

Absolutely it should be as easy as that. The trouble is, as seams to be the way with our modern world, we have become too wrapped up in clever management double speak and processes. Politicians can't tell us now what changes they are going to make without wrapping it up as "going forward". We have lost the ability to do the simple. Laughable if it wasn't so sad.

[500N]

Tom

"We have lost the ability to do the simple."

Very true. A bit like the old copper "clipping him across the ear"
which was simple, effective and often solved both the problem
at the time and future one's !

The good effect of RO's (Routine Order's) was that they were "catch all"
and if the CSM needed something fixed without spending ages trying
to do it, he got the OC to put it in RO's. And god help anyone who broke
them, JO's included !

[Skeleton]

PAYD was being implemented as I was leaving and i fought against it from my lowly position as a SNCO tooth and nail. It was always going to turn into a pay as you starve scheme and I repeatedly warned the troops that their food was about to be provided by a civilian company interested in one thing - Profit.

There was a thread on PAYD on here at the time, and the vast majority were all for its implementation because they were adults etc etc.

Looks like it turned into the crock of sh^^ it was always destined to become and everyone headed to Comet for a toaster. Is the banning of said toasters a cack handed way of forcing folk back into the mess? - the cynic in me says maybe. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

So, kitchen raids at 2am are no longer done because the food's not worth eating?

Well, that's one way to stop casual crime.

I can still remember my first descent about 20 feet down a 'borrowed' rope ladder for an illicit steak after a late night bar session on an overseas base, secure in the knowledge that my only risk of annoying the Stn Cdr was if I let go, as I would have landed on him.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Skeleton

There was a thread on PAYD on here at the time, and the vast majority were all for its implementation because they were adults etc etc.

The great thing about PPRuNe is the archive. Below is a link to one thread in the archive (there are quite a few more). Not many in favour here, but it is interesting to note that many of the predictions back then have become reality.

PAYD thread from 05 (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/183710-pay-you-dine-has-emptied-dining-room-diners.html)

[wiggy]

I'm well out of the military loop but this behaviour sounds familiar.

Once upon a time my kid's school canteen was handed over to Scolarest (http://www.scolarest.fr/restauration/scolaire), the French arm of Compass Group (http://www.compass-group.co.uk/our-company.htm), who promptly reduced portion size and probably produced the worst school meals in France.... To cater for the increasing grumbles from (and about) hungry tummies it was decided the kids could buy snacks from the school shop.... When the kids got round this by bringing in their own snacks the head teacher promptly banned "self catering"....We were never able to find out if the Head teacher had bowed to external pressure....

Is there any possibility the Compass Group are involved in PAYD?

[BEagle]

These PAYD contractors should be forced to visit the Luftwaffe's Air Terminal at Köln/Wahn! Excellent food, good portions, very good prices!

Even the old cafeteria was good, but the new one is truly superb.

Mind you, I think that some of the folk employed are actually conscripts doing their 6 months of national service. Thye readily volunteer for the job as it sets them up well for restaurant work when they leave.

The worst food I remember in the RAF was Shaw-Porter's contractor catering at the Officers' Mess, White Watham in the earlly 1970s. Truly dreadful.

[WannabeCrewman]

I'm at a tri-service base at the moment and Pay-As-You-Starve here is :mad:'ing awful.

The last meal I had there was "pork" that looked like it had been reared on a farm just outside of Chernobyl - never eaten something with so many lumps and stringy horrendous bits in it. Throw it into a dark room, it'd probably have glowed and then slithered away. Coupled with the tiny portions, it does, as many have already said, leave much to be desired. Unless you go to the NAAFI (expensive and mostly processed rubbish) your only other option is a 2 mile walk to the nearest Waitrose (I dont keep a car on camp).

It amazes me how there has been this massive push on physical fitness in recent years within the forces, but the nutrition to support it has seemingly vanished. I'm getting heavily into my fitness these days (why not, sod all else to do!) and I'm lucky if I can get the nutrition I need to support my exercise.

I've joined at a really wank time, havent I?

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't know if this model still exists, but in the O-Club at Keflavik in the wardroom at tea time (dinner for them) you could get the dish-of-the day for about $1.95. If you chose the steak it might have been $4.95. The next day the dish-of-the-day might be the same steak at $1.95.

The caters had the opportunity to bulk prepare one meal and do a la carte for anything else. The all-ranks mess OTOH was open to all.

What was different about that wardroom however was the kitchen was turned over to wardroom employees who would then cook pizzas, burgers etc to order throughout the evening. These club employees were regular duty seamen moonlighting for extra cash.

[November4]

Once upon a time my kid's school canteen was handed over to Scolarest, the French arm of Compass Group, who promptly reduced portion size and probably produced the worst school meals in France.... To cater for the increasing grumbles from (and about) hungry tummies it was decided the kids could buy snacks from the school shop.... When the kids got round this by bringing in their own snacks the head teacher promptly banned "self catering"....We were never able to find out if the Head teacher had bowed to external pressure....

Same at my kids school. When the contract came to an end, the school took the kitchens back into their own control and now produce good quality, fresh food at reasonable prices. Numbers eating school dinners have gone up.

No chance of the Stn Cdrs saying enough is enough and taking back control of the kitchens? Granted not many military chefs left now so would need to be civilians. Would look excellent on OC Catering CV

[Exascot]

It amazes me how there has been this massive push on physical fitness in recent years within the forces, but the nutrition to support it has seemingly vanished.

This has been exactly my thought as I was reading through this thread. I retired nearly 20 years ago so I am well and truly out of the loop but how can the 'powers that be' allow this. I guess that I am going to be told their hands are tied by the financiers. In which case it has to be taken up at ministerial level.

It is a real shame that mess life and the incredible catering that I experienced in my 16 years has declined to such a level.

[Skeleton]

The great thing about PPRuNe is the archive. Below is a link to one thread in the archive (there are quite a few more). Not many in favour here, but it is interesting to note that many of the predictions back then have become reality.

PAYD was wanted by almost all of the single folk i came into contact with at the time. PAYD was not forced on anyone, It was what the vast majority asked for and got. As soon as it was implemented even a Harrier pilot could see it was the beginning of the end of mess life and decent food.

[Jumping_Jack]

At a leafy Headquarters, in order to relieve the hunger of the inhabitants due to the small portion sizes, they are introducing vending machines into the SLA, full of crisps and chocolate for one to purchase from. All provided by the catering contractor.......:ugh: Promoting a healthy lifestyle? I don't think so.....

[teeteringhead]

vending machines into the SLA, full of crisps and chocolate also present in "Deadloss" Mess at Cranditz.......

[Party Animal]

I hear ya'll but I have to say at the tri-service base where I work (near Watford), the PAYD food is generally superb - in the O's Mess. I also was very impressed with the meals during a recent stay in the mess at Lossie.

Maybe I'm just lucky!

[gr4techie]

PAYD was wanted by almost all of the single folk i came into contact with at the time. PAYD was not forced on anyone, It was what the vast majority asked for and got.

No it wasn't wanted. I don't recall anyone being asked at the time.

But then it is naive to think we have any influence on a cost saving measure! It would have been forced in and made to work regardless of the facts. The powers that be would have decided they want PAYD before they even conducted any polls.

[sisemen]

No it wasn't wanted. I don't recall anyone being asked at the time.

Ha, ha, ha,HA!!

Just read the AMPLT reports around about 1985 onwards. Every station that they went to had the same cry - "we only want to pay for the food that we eat". Well, you got it. The VSOs listened to you. They didn't listen to us staff officers in MOD who very clearly, and repeatedly, said THIS WOULD BE A VERY BAD THING FOR THE FORCES.

Oh no, siree! Give the oiks a few more shekels in the pocket so that they could go down to the local kebab house rather than have a meal in the mess - or spend it on the new motorbike instead and go a bit hungry for a while.

Well, this is the law of unintended consequences - live with it. That's what you wanted. Too difficult to turn back now. But you were were warned.

[sisemen]

Sorry.....I'm on a roll.

It's a bit like when the Personal Private Pensions came in and the piranhas of the insurance industry moved in on the troops (officers included) and persuaded them that opting out of the Armed Forces Pension Scheme would be the way to go 'cos they would get squillions.

We, at MOD, issued a warning note which went out to every military establishment (and it was included regularly in SROs) ....DO NOT DO THIS, YOU WILL BE SORRY.

Despite the warning there were still a good percentage that insisted that they really did want to go down this route.

Plan B. Issue each and every person that wanted to do this with a paper that stated, in very bald terms, what the consequences would be if they chose to carry on. The paper then required a signature to say that the applicant fully understood the consequences, and another signature to say that they still wanted to go ahead. Then, and only then, once they had fully certified their stupidity would we allow them to opt out.

Occasionally one hears from them, whinging about how they were dudded and how the hell are they now going to manage etc etc etc.

Sympathy??? It's somewhere between **** and syphillis in the dictionary.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Well, that's true Siseman, but I've little doubt that catering would have been civilianised and contracted out anyway. If they're even flogging off SAR....

[langleybaston]

The fine detail eludes me but a similar piece of stupidity occurred c. 1995 with respect to Metpersons living in Officers' Messes.

Being MoD and thoroughly good people, we were permitted [if accepted!] to live in Mess on attachment, and for a very modest sum. Our subsistence rate was correspondingly small.

There was clear advantage to the RAF and the metperson ........... liaison was virtually continuous and good feedback was had by all.

Despite valiant efforts in high places, it was ruled that the metpersons would henceforth pay full whack, and receive full subsistence.

Now Messes can be great, but there are downsides [no, really!] so metpersons living-in ceased almost overnight, as they voted for a nice hotel with ensuite facilities and towels.

I don't think MoD made a net saving, and there was a tangible loss to the service.

[Rigga]

It's all very well discussing who was right so many years ago (and nobody can be right in this debate) but the fact remains that catering is now privatised and that there seems to be a "move" being made toward compulsary use of a facility that not many people are fond of (and perhaps were never fond of). And the poor news that scotland craves for Macdonalds only goes to reinforce the Battle of the Table Plate in MOD.

In the middle of all this is also a barely noticed fact that none of those poor souls who aren't using the messes seems to have starved yet.

It seems to me then that the caterer is at fault. They are not doing anything to entice their "captive customers" into their web of profit milking. So, on their current performance, they will no doubt go bust.

And then what?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

If there is any common sense left, no private contractor will take the next contract, so the Government will have to provide the service. At which point it may realise (but certainly won't admit) that Siseman et al were right all along.

...and in about 20 years, some incredibly bright politician/VSO will (re)invent the wheel!:suspect:

[NutLoose]

Well no matter how bad I cannot see it going back, could you imagine the uproar if they suddenly said we are going to deduct a couple of hundred plus back off your wages, one would imagine a lot have that already spent elsewhere.

[NutLoose]

Here is a thought...

Run a thread similar to these and review your lunches, perhaps then those stations getting poor reviews may improve..

This one covers crew meals

The unofficial box nasty hall of shame (http://www.choxnpinz.com/141starlifter/boxnasties/box.html)

And the one that impressed the heck out of me, that reviews school meals

http://neverseconds.********.co.uk/

Missing word is blog spot

[TomJoad]

Here is a thought...

Run a thread similar to these and review your lunches, perhaps then those stations getting poor reviews may improve..

This one covers crew meals

The unofficial box nasty hall of shame (http://www.choxnpinz.com/141starlifter/boxnasties/box.html)

And the one that impressed the heck out of me, that reviews school meals

http://neverseconds.********.co.uk/

Missing word is blog spot


:D:D:D:D Top advice Nutloose. The school meals review was done by a primary school kid who photographed her school meal every day then uploaded the picture to the net with a short critique. From what I remember the council banned her from taking the photographs but following public interest they changed their mind and agreed to review the quality of the meals. Now if a primary school kid can do it the what's keeping you:p

[ShyTorque]

These days it would probably be deemed to come under the Official Secrets Act, or the Anti-Terrorist laws! :rolleyes:

[Skeleton]

Just read the AMPLT reports around about 1985 onwards. Every station that they went to had the same cry - "we only want to pay for the food that we eat". Well, you got it. The VSOs listened to you.

Well said that man. I clearly remember standing and voicing my opinion against PAYD during a AMP visit to Cottesmore. I thought I was about to be lynched by the majority in that briefing room for doing so, talk about unpopular.

We were also clearly briefed on the implications of a PAYD scheme, lack of choice etc, and that once implemented there would be little to no chance of a return to old style messing.

Sadly the majority didn't listen and got exactly what they asked for.

[nice castle]

I remember at Odiham When AM (at the time) Loader came down. A few of us tried to ask him to reconsider before it was too late. His reply was that his hands were tied, as the Navy and the Army wanted it!

Always someone else's fault isn't it?:rolleyes:

I am so sad what I had predicted has transpired, to a tee. I hate being right about this.

[baffman]

I see the standard of reporting is up with the best of the Daily Snail:

Microwaves, toasters and kettles have been banned from airmen and women’s rooms at RAF Leuchars after being deemed a fire risk. Airmen are now aircrew.Not quite, PN.

[Whenurhappy]

SLAM Blocks were specified to have 'snack preparation areas' and were provided with Microwaves, fridges, dischwashers, kettles and toasters. Yes, oven and hobs woud be good but, to be honest, who would clean them?

As Customer 1 for SLAM for a brief few months, I had some rather stiff words with several Garrison and Stn cdrs, who removed all these facilites the moment the blcoks were accepted from the Contractors. Firstly, they had been provided as part of the deal, secondly they remained the property of the contractors for a period of 5 years (and therefore had to maintain and PAT them etc) and thirdly, it meant that guys and girls would replicate the equipment in the bedrooms which are not suitable locations for cooking.

Part of the SLAM design (and I mean SLAM, not some of the PFI 'SLAM-like' blocks that have been put up) was to have the snack preparation area opposite the communual area (provided with sofas, chairs, tv etc) and with large windows facing the wing corridors to encourage social interaction. On one Army site, within a couple of days of accepting the Blocks, the Garrison Commander had boarded up these (expensive) windows and removed the SALM provided furniture from the communual room and turned them into a 'Duty room' for the block Cpl.

The next addition was unauthorised coat-hooks in the suites. Now, in case you think I am being rather analy-retentive, SLAM accn had to meet various Government standards, inter alia, had to be 'ligature-proof' ie, design optimised to reduce suicide attempts by hanging. Accordingly, upper doors for the wardrobes had frangible hinges, hooks in bathrooms were adhesive and therefore would pull away from the walls at certain loads.

The final one was at a Joint site, where the 3/4 sized Double Beds that came as standard were removed by Barrack Stores and replaced with nasty, narrow steel-framed beds, which didn't comply with the anti-ligature design requirements (ie they could be stood on their ends and a noose attached to the top frame). When quizzed why the beds had been removed, the Stn Cdr indicated that 'they were too good for the troops and anyway, we don't have linen and duvets for them'.

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy and we simply don't embue our people with the modicum of common sense.

[TomJoad]

SLAM Blocks were specified to have 'snack preparation areas' and were provided with Microwaves, fridges, dischwashers, kettles and toasters. Yes, oven and hobs woud be good but, to be honest, who would clean them?

As Customer 1 for SLAM for a brief few months, I had some rather stiff words with several Garrison and Stn cdrs, who removed all these facilites the moment the blcoks were accepted from the Contractors. Firstly, they had been provided as part of the deal, secondly they remained the property of the contractors for a period of 5 years (and therefore had to maintain and PAT them etc) and thirdly, it meant that guys and girls would replicate the equipment in the bedrooms which are not suitable locations for cooking.

Part of the SLAM design (and I mean SLAM, not some of the PFI 'SLAM-like' blocks that have been put up) was to have the snack preparation area opposite the communual area (provided with sofas, chairs, tv etc) and with large windows facing the wing corridors to encourage social interaction. On one Army site, within a couple of days of accepting the Blocks, the Garrison Commander had boarded up these (expensive) windows and removed the SALM provided furniture from the communual room and turned them into a 'Duty room' for the block Cpl.

The next addition was unauthorised coat-hooks in the suites. Now, in case you think I am being rather analy-retentive, SLAM accn had to meet various Government standards, inter alia, had to be 'ligature-proof' ie, design optimised to reduce suicide attempts by hanging. Accordingly, upper doors for the wardrobes had frangible hinges, hooks in bathrooms were adhesive and therefore would pull away from the walls at certain loads.

The final one was at a Joint site, where the 3/4 sized Double Beds that came as standard were removed by Barrack Stores and replaced with nasty, narrow steel-framed beds, which didn't comply with the anti-ligature design requirements (ie they could be stood on their ends and a noose attached to the top frame). When quizzed why the beds had been removed, the Stn Cdr indicated that 'they were too good for the troops and anyway, we don't have linen and duvets for them'.

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy and we simply don't embue our people with the modicum of common sense.


You have hit the nail firmly on the head Whenurhappy. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with SLAM in fact had it been executed properly it would have brought single accom arrangements into the 20 century never mind the 21 century. Always thought we had a patronising attitude towards singlies. We seamed to conveniently forget that students from age 17 onwards the length and breadth of the country all manage to look after themselves. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that varied and nutritious meals cannot be provided by private contract at reasonable cost - we have simply frigged the contracts as per usual.

[SVK]

Although some here seem to hold the opinion of 'we told you this would happen', the fact is it needn't have been so.

All I wanted as a liver in was to pay for the meals that I actually ate and not be charged for services that I did not receive. Simple as that.

I did NOT say that I wanted Mess catering to be contractorised, put open to tender or tied in with the leisure aspects of the Stn. I didn't even say that I wanted the meals that I did take to remain at the same prices.

I certainly didn't want batting to be reduced to once a week and every meal time to be an admin nightmare of form-filling, protein versus carbohydrate and Servers ticking of the number of portions remaining.

Oh - and I DEFINITELY didn't want them to simply keep putting out the same cold desserts on the trolley until some poor bugger finally gives in and bends their spoon digging into 10 day old Angel Delight!