Petition | Remove ASIC cards entirely

[Flying Binghi]

Having a look-see at the other Oz aviation forum i came across this -

http://www.change.org/petitions/australian-federal-government-remove-asic-cards-entirely#share

Over 500 signatures to date..:ooh: Thats a fair percentage of Oz pilots.








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[rioncentu]

Unfortunately ALL pilots in OZ represent a very SMALL percentage of the Public and boyo do they feel safe knowing all us pilots (and every pimple faced kid at maccas at the airport) have a security clearance.

[Wally Mk2]

I'm a member of Change.org & they do a good job trying to get change where change is warranted but this campaign I believe would never work. The change is effectively aimed at Sport pilots, GA level so for a start it won't have the backing of everyone.
Security is a whole industry now it's huge with way over the top regs etc so getting a major change like this is near impossible sad to say as I personally believe we are just puppets in the governing bodies sick game of keeping us all "safe", a lose term made up to suit the game.

Still I applaud those behind it for trying & at least getting the subject broadened out there with the gen public because they really live in a fantasy world even if it is somewhat futile.

Wmk2

[falconx]

No ASIC no maccas discount

[the_rookie]

No ASIC no maccas discount :eek: keep them at all cost!!

[YPJT]

He lost me when he kept calling it an ASIC card, I suppose he also refers to ATM machines, PIN numbers etc. :}
Seriously though, I agree that there is room for improvement under the current aviation security regime but I think our petitioner will have to come up with something better than an off the hand sweeping statement before those that matter will take notice. The fact that they are a "costly annoyance" won't exactly have the regulator running to have the legislation changed.

Why do people waste their time with online petitions? There are far more effective ways of working to achieve the outcome you want. But it does take some effort and unfortunately cost in terms of travel etc. Spending 30 seconds on a keyboard to get an online petition going to my mind is just pure laziness and fails to convince anyone that they are genuinley concerned or take their own comments seriously.

If, as Wally Mk2 says, the petition is aimed at the GA sports aviation level, where is their presence at the numerous open invitation government forums that discuss these very matters? The MUA have very strong views on MSICs and they regularly attend the consultative meetings to make sure the interest of their members are taken into consideration with any proposed changes. I'd suggest GA get with the program and adopt a similar approach.

[tweekey]

At least change it so we dont have to pay a rediculous amount of money for them, I'm all for having a way of determining if somebody belongs airside or not, but $180 or what ever it is these days is stupidity!

[Captahab]

At least change it so we dont have to pay a rediculous amount of money for them, I'm all for having a way of determining if somebody belongs airside or not, but $180 or what ever it is these days is stupidity!

And then you lose a month off it each time you renew it, the new one becomes valid from the time that the application is approved, not from the expiry of the old one :mad:

[Jabawocky]

To be honest, if the processing of us ASIC holders (see YPJT) is for the greater good of the WHOLE community, then the whole community should pay.

In simple terms they should be free to anyone who can justify needing one.

Now that would be an improvement.

USER PAYS.........well not all the users are paying, just the holder!

Can someone push that through?

[Horatio Leafblower]

Jabs, that ain't going to work either.

How about this asa proposition:

1/. ASIC cards needed at Capital city and Military/civil joint user airfields; This will exempt the vast majority of private pilots and RAAus pi... flyer... whatever they do :confused:

2/. ASIC card holders get express-lane treatment at Airports.. they've been security checked, haven't they??? Even better, most working pilots will need an ASIC so WE get the coffee discounts and the PPLs and RAAus ...er, people, don't.

3/. New Licence applicants, licence upgrades and foreign licence conversions get security-checked as they pass "go" and are then put on a PRISM-style automated "watch list" that will flag them when they do whatever it is that will get them flagged. Otherwise, the Nanny-state BACKS OFF and starts using technology to make our lives easier, safer & more productive, not more expensive and obstructed :ugh:

[Dale Hardale]

The solution is for AOC holders to issue the cards after background pre employment checks. Simple and achieves the desired result. :ok:

[Horatio Leafblower]

...and every 2-bit charter operator and flying school and aeroclub then has to have some sort of approved security check scheme with appropriate security around the details of the scheme and DOTARS audits and training and responsible persons and annual reporting and Strict Liability and headlines like "Country Flying School trains terrorists without security checks. Flying instructor arrested".

Screw that. :mad:

The majority of them are flat out keeping their AOC, and that's something they're actually qualified to do, without handing them National Security on a self-serve platter. :=

Keep it central and Govt-controlled, just dial it back to "sensible" and "risk-related".

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Yeah - I know tis but an 'overkill' / rort - and I don't even get the 'staff priced coffee'....Wot Coffee..??

Bye Bye $180.....again and again.....
Name / Rank / Serial No.......Same as last time thanks......

Bah Humbug!!!:ugh::uhoh:

[thorn bird]

To many people, making to much money, for much to change. The security industry makes more money than any part of the industry that is productive so they have far more money with which to bribe....er sorry, "lobby" them who make determinations.

[kabukiman]

I wouldn't care if they were free

Why do we have to pay for them?

[kabukiman]

YPJT you are correct that petition reads pretty poorly. To make a change like canning ASICs you need to show they are ineffective, not just complain about inconvenience.

Although they are a pain in the arse

On the plus side no feds have jumped out of the bushes and arrested me when I've walked onto a field without mine showing

[YPJT]

Some good discussion on this here. Remember all an ASIC does is provide evidence that the wearer has undergone a security background check and may be allowed unescorted access at a security controlled airport.

Kabukiman, the costs are basically three elements. Background check by AUSCHECK which on its own is about $100, admin charge to process by the issuing body and the cost of producing the card. The card with photo is relatively inexpensive and simple but the equipment to put the foil kinegram strip is about a $35,000 investment. The attorney general's office has to provide very detailed substantiation of their charging regime if they are going to increase the cost of the background check. A few years back they actually lowered the cost but that certainly wasn't passed on by issuing bodies.:mad:

You don't actually lose a month in fact if you time it right you can gain nearly a month. They used to expire on the last day of the previous month but after a reg change a couple of years back, they now expire on the last day of the month that the clearance was issued.

Horatio, agree 100% with keeping it sensible and risk based. Why not collectively put together some well reasoned argument that demonstrates no reduction in the security outcome. That is the only chance of getting some change through.:cool:

[CHAIRMAN]

Probably been answered before, but where's the best deal.
Mine's due this month.
Price from previous issuer is $220.00:ugh:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Why not collectively put together some well reasoned argument that demonstrates no reduction in the security outcome.

I suspect that scrapping the whole scheme will have no effect on the security outcome.

However I concede the effect on the perceived security outcome - can we call it the illusory security outcome? - would be enormous.

[Ascend Charlie]

Fair enough for a background check for the initial issue, but renewals should be automatic, simple production of the current ASIC and a fresh photo to get a new one.

And use PRISM to flag any Evil-Doers.

[kabukiman]

that sounds like a better idea.

like I said nobody has stopped me or done anything when I've been airside without mine visible. If they did what they were supposed to do wouldn't I be stopped and questioned? What's the point of having them if nobody is checking? smaller airfields not too far away have fences that are knee high and there is nobody around watching. That said I cannot quickly come up with a better way to secure aircraft/fields that makes everyone happy, wouldn't cot too much etc etc

[ga_trojan]

Fair enough for a background check for the initial issue, but renewals should be automatic, simple production of the current ASIC and a fresh photo to get a new one.They won't let you do that as the AG has decided to exempt the ASIC card from Australian law and you have to declare on your ASIC card things that otherwise would not be an issue.

Yet the ASIC card is not a vaild form of identification.......

I suggest everyone have a read of the fine print on your ASIC application and look at everything you HAVE to declare, even though there are laws in place to protect people from this, the ASIC card is exempt.

[training wheels]

Background check by AUSCHECK which on its own is about $100, admin charge to process by the issuing body and the cost of producing the card. The card with photo is relatively inexpensive and simple but the equipment to put the foil kinegram strip is about a $35,000 investment.

So, the reason why it costs so much is the issuing body is trying to recoup their investment on the equipment. This is fair enough, but couldn't the government subsidized part or all of the ASIC equipment so that the overall costs of the card can be reduced? This is what the people should be lobbying the government about; not a petition to have the card scrapped, because that will never happen. If it didn't cost so much, people wouldn't be whinging about it so much.

A few years ago, I had to get a 'Working with Children" card which involves a similar background check, but only costs $100 (and it's free for volunteers who need the card). But then, the WWC card doesn't have the stylish 'anti-terrorist' foil kinegram strip.

[Horatio Leafblower]

If it didn't cost so much, people wouldn't be whinging about it so much.

I disagree.

The whole "security" (blanket) concept is nothing but an embuggerance upon the whole industry and especially upon those least likely to pose any threat - people flying small aeroplanes to/from small population centers, and Security-checked and background-checked airline staff who have to take their boots, belts and bras off every time they go to work.

DG/DAMP-style security & threat awareness training would be a much more worthwhile embuggerance.

The actual costs of the security checks are not too great a burden if there is a reasonable benefit (eg, capital city Heavy jet RPT ops)

[GregW_Oz]

Hi all,

I'm glad to hear the petition has at least stimulated some debate on the subject here. Although it's unlikely that the petiton will get rid of ASIC entirely there's a chance that pilots could become exempt via a security check from the body issuing their pilot's licence and a photo on their licence. This should to reduce the cost and the hassle of getting another card to fly.

As to the foil strip on the card - How many airfelds or airports have any facility to verify the validity of the card or foil strip. Fake ASICS are available in Bankok for a few dollars just by providing a photo id. I suspect the fakes would be accepted in any airport security in this country. ASIC was poorly thought through and it's implementation rushed through without providing the infrastructure to make it a valid security device.

I think that online petitions are one way of using the Internet to provide grass-root democratic power. The fact that it's easy to sign doesn't reduce the validity of the cause. No matter how easy it is to sign people won't put their name to it if they don't agree with the premise presented.

Cheers,

Greg.
PS Flame-on guys.

[YPJT]

Folks, I need to know who would be a good representative voice for GA on this? Either individual or organisation. Not promising anything but there are some rumblings that might lead to change. Feel free to PM me with details. All info in the strictest confidence.

[Typhoon650]

The whole system is ridiculously corrupt and repetitive.
I've had to have no less than four "background checks" by whomever does them in the last two years. One for a heavy vehicle licence, one for an ASIC renewal and two with various recruitment agencies.
Surely the relevant data would still be held by those that actually do the checking and they're just pissing themselves laughing at every irrelevant background check that is repeated so frequently? I can hear them laughing in glee as their accounts fill with money for pointless repetition...
Instead of an ASIC card, why not a "Fit and proper person" card that has weight outside of the narrow scope it's issued with? So the person who has had the checks done can simply wave it when asked and that's all that is needed?
You all do know there is an MSIC card as well? Essentially the same card for marine operations...why not just one card for many uses?

[Oktas8]

We could call it the Australia Card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Card)...

[Stikybeke]

I was recently sent a letter (to my home address) from a financial institution asking me to verify my address for the purpose of ensuring that correspondence was being sent to the correct address.....I shake my head.....

In response I sent back the pre-paid response envelope empty....and I felt better after doing that. I know this has nothing to do with ASIC cards but thought I'd chuck it in anyway....

STiky
:ugh:

[YPJT]

You all do know there is an MSIC card as well? Essentially the same card for marine operations...why not just one card for many uses?
The MSIC clearance is slightly less restrictive than for the ASIC. You can transfer an ASIC clearance to MSIC but not vice versa.

[dubbleyew eight]

I've never been able to renew my asic because the software always crashes.

if we need an asic why not make it for 10 years at a time? ...like a passport.

[Flying Binghi]

...if we need an asic why not make it for 10 years at a time? ...like a passport.

Why not open ended ? as others have pointed out if yer been a bit of a terrorist since yer got the ASIC yer probably already contained...






.

[denho]

they also require a new copy of birth certificates and drivers lic for each renewal why most of us were only born once. also heard some RAAF people dont reconise them!!

[cattletruck]

Would anyone know what would be the percentage of current pilots who apply for an ASIC have it rejected? I would imagine it be around 0% if not zero.

[YPJT]

Good question cattle truck. Across tHe board for all ASIC applicants the percentage is very low. Sorry I don't have exact figures. Whether that percentage is proportionate specifically with pilots I don't know. The only pilots I've known to have any trouble are first time applicants undergoing training.

[Flying Binghi]

...I don't have exact figures. Whether that percentage is proportionate specifically with pilots I don't know...

So your saying zero % it is.

[Biggles_in_Oz]

From ASIOs 2011-12 annual report. http://www.asio.gov.au/img/files/ASIO-Annual-Report-2011-12_part-2.pdf Counter-terrorism security assessments
Counter-terrorism security assessments are conducted to assess the suitability of a person on counter-terrorism grounds to access areas or materials that are restricted, such as Australia’s air and maritime ports, other security sensitive facilities, access to dangerous goods or accreditation to special events. Requests for counter-terrorism security assessments are received by ASIO from AusCheck and the Australian Federal Police, with the vast majority requested by AusCheck for aviation and maritime security identification cards.
In 2011–12, ASIO completed 153,644 counter-terrorism security assessments, a 40 per cent increase on those completed for 2010–11. No adverse or qualified counter-terrorism security assessments were issued in 2011–12.

If, as a citizen, you haven't come to the attention of any criminal investigatory agencies then there are no electronic records hence ASIO can't really issue an 'adverse finding'.
I mean, ASIO is not going to interview your co-workers, friends, referees, etc, for a crappy ASIC card.

The main purpose of the biennial expiry is to not allow perpetual trust to exist., but with a simple change to the system the current 'security' level could still be maintained and we would undergo less crap and expense and (dare one hope) the ASIC could become used as an identity document.
The change is that ASICs are automatically re-issued unless ASIO has determined in its' regular trawls through the various criminal databases that the recipient is of concern to them.

[YPJT]

So your saying zero % it is. I don't believe I am saying that at all.

Biggles, very good points mate. For the life of me I cannot see why such a system would not work. WRT the ASIO not finding any adverse or CT security assessmen the percentage that Auscheck refuse are because of other security relevant offences as prescribed in the regs such as theft, drugs, violence etc.

[Wally Mk2]

Security is now a huge money making industry, I've said it b4 & to me it's obvious that if someone is determined to break thru the security system they will find a way & do so, I mean sheez paranoia is rife now around airports as they security goons are too busy checking the ones with ASIC cards to not notice the clever ones getting under the 'fence'!


Wmk2

[Flying Binghi]

...too busy checking the ones with ASIC cards to not notice the clever ones getting under the 'fence'!

There are those who look to get 'over' the fence.

Who needs an ASIC...

German police foil Islamist terror plot to use remote controlled aircraft filled with explosives as guided missiles



Read more: German police foil Islamist terror plot to use remote controlled aircraft filled with explosives as guided missiles | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347946/German-police-foil-Islamist-terror-plot-use-remote-controlled-aircraft-filled-explosives-guided-missiles.html#ixzz2XI4t2OgK)

[cattletruck]

The change is that ASICs are automatically re-issued unless ASIO has determined in its' regular trawls through the various criminal databases that the recipient is of concern to them.

That's how it shoulda been Bigs, in fact for current pilots the ASIC should have been incorporated into the license. If ASIO has a valid reason to stop someone with a pilots license from entering airside then it should also have the sense to stop them flying as well. Incorporating the ASIC into the license will save us dollars, as if we aren't already paying enough for the privilege just to have the license ticket current.

[training wheels]

If ASIO has a valid reason to stop someone with a pilots license from entering airside then it should also have the sense to stop them flying as well. Incorporating the ASIC into the license will save us dollars, as if we aren't already paying enough for the privilege just to have the license ticket current.

That's already the case. Anyone applying for a new license, eg, from CPL to ATPL requires a current ASIC or AVID. From a few posts above, the AUS check process isn't the costly part; it's the machine that produces the card that makes the card expensive. The fact that we hàve to display the card adds an extra $80 to the cost of the ASIC.

[jas24zzk]

Anyone applying for a new license, eg, from CPL to ATPL requires a current ASIC or AVID

WRONG!

Try SPL to higher.
The laws have changed significantly since this crap card was introduced.
I'd have to look it up at length, as its buried in the small books we are supposed to absorb...

If you recall, you are only permitted X number of training hours before you have to apply for a Student Pilots Licence (SPL)
It now stands that that same limitation applies to your application for an AVID/ASIC.
Furthermore, you are no longer permitted to operate as PIC whithou holding one or the other....i.e you cannot solo until you have it in your hands. Having the application in, is no longer accepted. You either have the card or you do not.
if you do not, then no solo for you.

Cheers
Jas

[training wheels]

WRONG!

Try SPL to higher.

Where am I wrong? Read again my quote above; "Anyone applying for a new license, eg, from CPL to ATPL requires a current ASIC or AVID"

I only gave one example, that of a CPL holder applying for a new ATPL but obviously, there are other examples as well. :rolleyes:

[Pinky the pilot]

Remember though that the reasons that the ASIC was introduced was that the Government felt that it had to be seen to do something to prevent an act of Terrorism similar to that of September 11th 2001.

The easily recognisable fact that an ASIC would not do so is neither here nor there. The Govt had to be seen to do something!

Of course, the fact that it would also raise extra revenue was not a factor.:rolleyes:

And for that precise reason, ie revenue, it will never be repealed. :mad:

[SW3]

It's a case of if you wish to access a secure airport, what's good for one has to be the same for another. So if you wish to access the tarmac at the GA end of a secure airport, there's nothing to stop you walking across to the RPT side which definitely needs an ASIC. Otherwise they'd need to put in more fences and gates.
ASICs are never going to disappear, they can't. For us working in the industry they're a necessity unfortunately however we need to know if someone wandering the airport is legitimately allowed to be there.
A better battle to fight would be the reduction/abolishment of cost or a lengthening of validity (IE 10 years like a Passport).

[Arther Q]

As a GA business on a small RPT airfield I find the impost of paying for ASIC cards for my staff an unwelcome extra cost. I too have flown to many airports around Australia and the only airport that I was asked happened to be an Airport that produces ASIC cards. No prizes for why ! These cards are very cheap to produce and only a third of the cost is related to the Government background checks. So there is good money to be made by making thesecards
During a recent visit to a military airfield for work my ASIC card was not accepted as suitable identification but my Car Drivers license was ! So go figure!
Basically we need an ID attached to our pilots licence or based on our Passport.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

OOOh Pinky...you 'realist' you.....

:ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Griffo; A realist maybe, but I'm also too flamin' cynical for my own good at times.

Arther Q's comment re the effectiveness of the ASIC when on a Military airfield says it all really.

[Professional Amateur]

Last ASIC I bought was $80 (I think) now it is $200!! Wages must have gone up in the ASIC office!

This card is a joke, as a Mil pilot I don't need to have an ASIC, but to command a 152 I do!!

Very odd indeed.

[Wally Mk2]

'PA' it's all relevant you see, $200 bucks is 'cause you fly a lighty & yr of a high level risk with that lethal weapon (C150), for keeping us safe in yr warbird we pay you:ok:


Wmk2