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Odai
13th Jun 2013, 21:35
Hello,

I've been thinking about the single door design of the PA28, and have a question.

Apart from the convenience issue of having the door on the passenger's side, I've also been wondering about the safety aspect of it in case of an emergency or forced landing. Specifically, if the situation were ugly enough for the aircraft to have overturned or the only door to be blocked.

I was recently reading some of the CAA's 'Safety Sense' publications, and came across the following one:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL02.pdf

From page 4:



d) Advise passengers how to use any emergency exits. Tell them to kick or force out a window if the doors or canopy cannot be opened or if the aircraft has overturned.



I've never heard this advice before - is kicking out the windows feasible in an emergency situation in a PA28? Are they designed to separate when under force in such a scenario?

I have the choice to move onto the C172 or stay on a PA28 for my CPL hour building, and in my specific situation, they come to exactly the same price. I've therefore been trying to decide between the two on other factors and I've been giving a great deal of attention (perhaps not justifiably so) to the presence of only a single door on the PA28.

What do others think?

Odai.

N707ZS
13th Jun 2013, 21:43
Would be interesting to see how you could get your feet up to kick a window out and then if you did actually get your foot through the window you may risk getting cut by the plastic screen.

smarthawke
13th Jun 2013, 22:05
On the flip side (if you'll excuse the pun):

If the occupants of a C172 are incapacitated post accident, then don't expect rescuers to be able to open doors that have been 'locked' from the inside. So they'll be kicking the windows in....

At least an internally 'locked' PA28 door can be opened from the outside.

Whopity
13th Jun 2013, 22:07
If it concerns you that much, look at the effect of a crash landing in a C172 with the flaps down, where you land between 2 trees and the flaps cut the cabin in half! I think I'd stick with one door!

IFMU
13th Jun 2013, 22:11
Having replaced all the glass on a C140, I am sure you could kick it out if semi-motivated yet not incapacitated. It may slip out of the channel prior to breaking. Not sure if the Cherokee is set up the same way, but I would guess it is.
Bryan

Dash8driver1312
13th Jun 2013, 22:49
I flew both types, and enjoyed both. The only reason I took the 172 out more was that it was cheaper.

Maybe have a look through the database to see how the single door or doubles affected the situation post-landing.

On my passenger briefs, I always told my passengers that if they were slow to get the food open, then I'd be going through them anyway.

Winhern
13th Jun 2013, 22:51
PA28's have been flying for what, 50+ years? How many accidents has anyone heard of where the door has been unavailable and the crew trapped? I suspect the blunt end of the fire extinguisher against the area near the DV window would work wonders.

I would suggest a trial flight in both planes and make your mind up afterwards.

Tarq57
13th Jun 2013, 23:19
I wouldn't consider it a factor in choosing a type to fly.

Frankly, if the aircraft has had a bingle serious enough to block the exit, it would seem to me that the occupants are likely to be a bit banged up, anyway, and probably incapable of crawling out of the rather small gap available if one was even able to remove a window. The crash axe would be the first attempt at this. It would be difficult. Imagine trying to swing it, upside down, perhaps dazed and confused, without hitting someone.

I'd consider more important factors to be the usability of the aircraft, overall, for the type of training you're carrying out. Which basically comes down to all the ingredients that go into answering the question: which to you find nicer to fly?

mushroom69
14th Jun 2013, 00:20
Some friends actually went off the end of the runway and into water after hitting the crest of a hill and bashing the gear all the way round into the bottom of the wing and deforming the PA28 door. They were in the surf, water filling, very cold and all badly bruised by the shoulder harness´. Nevertheless, they were able to kick the screens out and exit. All saved, no serious injuries.

I would not count on that though and so do what the "big" guys do and carry a crash ax. I had a regular ax with me in aircraft that were loaded and had doors in the back, like PA31s, 441s, 404s and PA46s. If need be, I was ready to go through the front.

That being said, I have flown a lot in both (12000hours +) and each has their advantages. I would not choose one on the basis of the doors. Personally, I prefer the Pipers. This is a discussion as old as the two models, there is no "right" answer....so pick the one YOU prefer, for what-ever reasons and enjoy it to the upmost!

In case you are thinking of asking why I like the Piper......having picked up many new ones from the factories, the Pipers always had fewer issues as new. I like that the wing is not in the way at the airport in the landing pattern. You get all that great visibility of the ground in cruise in the Cessna, then just when you want to see the ground at the airport, the wing is now suddenly in the way. I have often had to move a lot of things in airplanes, as I USED them. The Piper rear seats come right out, giving me a great place for tents, sleeping bags, bikes, cartons of tools, boxes of fish etc. If you don´t have these needs, then it might not be an issue.

A third choice and one that has always appealed to me, is the Grumman Tiger. It has the advantages of the Piper, yet is much faster than an Arrow, while on a fixed-pitch prop and fixed gear, making it far less expensive to run for great perfomance. Open the canopy on a warm day while taxi-ing out, rear seat can also disappear for you. But.......no nose wheel steering, so it takes a bit of getting used to.

Again....enjoy your choice!

Tinstaafl
14th Jun 2013, 02:47
Go for the C172. Not for doors, or Cessna is better than Piper, or anything like that. Do it so that you broaden your experience base. The more of the common types you fly the better for if & when you're looking for a job and the company operates 'x' instead of 'y'.

Pilot DAR
14th Jun 2013, 03:31
The single door is not beyond consideration. I would not say it's a big issue, but it is not none either. A fellow I knew was killed in a Bonanza, as he could not exit through the single door before it burned. He was the very experienced owner of that aircraft, so if he could not get out, a person new to the type would have more problem.

Some windows can be kicked out, but do not assume it will be easy. And, yes, broken acrylic plastic can be rather sharp.

tecman
14th Jun 2013, 09:30
No right answer, as others have said. Two doors reduce the feeling of claustrophobia but, that said, I was incredibly impressed at the integrity of the passenger capsule in a PA24 which had a CFIT accident. It was pretty clear that at least some of the strength came from the singe-door design choice. Still, my personal inclination leans to the easy-exit (2 door) arrangement.

My present Sunday afternoon machine is a little Tecnam P2002JF, with a sliding canopy (like the Grummans). It was deliberately chosen for the roll-bar arrangement (and impressive crush-test video) but I admit to being sceptical about the little hammer clipped to the hat shelf. It might just about be possible to reach the hammer, break the perspex and exit the aeroplane in an orderly fashion. Then again.....

piperboy84
14th Jun 2013, 18:24
Get yourself a Maule, 4 doors (2 with big swing out windows) and a big old skylight for kicking out if u need to

The_Pink_Panther
14th Jun 2013, 18:41
If you an hire both for the same cost, given the ubiquitous nature of both aircraft, why not split the hours you'll be doing over both?

They fly slightly differently, so why not build up experience on both.

TPP

B2N2
14th Jun 2013, 18:54
I've never liked the Pa28 series because of that single door.
Fortunately as an Instructor it has always been on my side :E
Lots of low wing aircraft have two doors, TB 10/20 series, Commander 112/114 even that miserable POS Tomahawk had two doors.
So its just being cheap on Piper's side.

Pilot DAR
15th Jun 2013, 02:17
So its just being cheap on Piper's side

Structure.

stevelup
15th Jun 2013, 07:55
There are many, many aircraft with doors on both sides that don't spontaneously fall apart in flight!

dont overfil
15th Jun 2013, 08:22
There are many, many aircraft with doors on both sides that don't spontaneously fall apart in flight!
Structure.
Lightweight structure.
D.O.

A and C
15th Jun 2013, 09:07
I think not ! The pepole who deride this aircraft ether don't understand it or don't have the skill to fly it with confidence.

cumbrianboy
15th Jun 2013, 17:41
I;ve nothing to add here other than to say, I've flown both types a reasonable amount but the PA28 wins hands down for me, gorgeous plane to fly and it looks like a plane. No matter how kind, the Cessna looks like a shed with wings ...

Viola
16th Jun 2013, 09:36
I carry a 'hammer and seat belt cutter' for a car in my flight bag. They are small, light, cost about £10 and easy for a not very big woman to use.

Odai
17th Jun 2013, 00:44
Many thanks for the helpful responses. Some interesting stories also to consider.

I actually did half of my PPL on a Warrior II, and never really had any concerns about the safety of the design. It was a pain to get in and out of, but that was it.

It was only after I recently received my PPL and considered the possibility of taking up friends and family that I began to worry much more about the safety of it.

With my current situation, I would probably need to decide between either the C172 or the PA28, I wouldn't be able to fly both. The two aircraft are based with two different schools/clubs and to hire both I'd need to pay two annual subscriptions. It's not a huge amount (£120 in each case), but I'd rather avoid it if there is little to no benefit.

I am aware also that there are more ideal aircraft with regards to this matter, but as I am in no position to join a syndicate/group or buy outright, I have no choice but to hire from schools/clubs/FTOs etc and that means I am restricted to the typical PA28/C172 aircraft that they tend to use.

I think I'll ask around a bit more before making a decision. If it is worth it, I may end up deciding just to put up with paying two annual subscriptions and simply use the PA28 when I'm on my own and the C172 for flights with passengers.

Thanks again for all the input.

stevelup
17th Jun 2013, 07:13
I think I'll ask around a bit more before making a decision. If it is worth it, I may end up deciding just to put up with paying two annual subscriptions and simply use the PA28 when I'm on my own and the C172 for flights with passengers.

I think that's a bit over the top to be honest. As irritating as the PA28 single door is, I've never heard of anyone perishing as a direct result of it!

As an aside, there's a whole world of other (arguably better) aircraft beyond the PA28 and C172. Just because you did your training in those, doesn't mean they are the only choice post PPL.

Victorian
17th Jun 2013, 12:55
On the question of PA28 windows, a hammer, unless quite big, would be of limited use since they are not glass and the hammer is liable to bounce back and hit you.

However, the windows are only secured by flimsy aluminium clamping strips that are themselve secured to the airfame by few self-tappers which will be well worn in your typical several times re-glazed aircraft. Ultimately the strength of the window will depend on the type of mastic used and how well cured it is rather than any bolting in place.

A good shove would certainly push out the pilot's window due to the weakness of the DV opening. In an adreneline fuelled escape I doubt if any of the windows would resist a light kicking. It might be worth explaining that to PAX once they are belted in and can't run away.

Fly-by-Wife
17th Jun 2013, 18:26
As irritating as the PA28 single door is, I've never heard of anyone perishing as a direct result of it!


There was an incident involving a PA28 (G-BXRG) a couple of years ago, where the passenger escaped from the ditching but the pilot did not. It is not known what the exact problem was that prevented the pilot leaving the aircraft, but a door on his side might have allowed successful egress.

FBW

Maoraigh1
17th Jun 2013, 20:53
where the passenger escaped from the ditching but the pilot did not. It is not known what the exact problem was that prevented the pilot leaving the aircraft, but a door on his side might have allowed successful egress.

That one (very elderly, if I remember) person escaped is an endorsement of a low wing, as PA28, over high wing, as C172, in a ditching.

Marchettiman
17th Jun 2013, 21:21
If you have an "elf and insanity" approach to flying light aircraft my advice is to give up now, perhaps take up playing bridge, but watch out the edges of some cards can be quite cutting.

Worry first about how you deal with gusting crosswinds, unexpected weather, how well you can handle an EFATO or control restriction rather than whether you might be the last person to leave the PA28, which as Captain I hope you would understand is your moral, if not legal duty.

strake
17th Jun 2013, 21:32
Coventry, November 1989. A PA28-180 suffered EFATO at 70ft. The pilot managed to get the aircraft down to the runway but was going too fast to stop. The aircraft went over the peri track, through the fence and across the main road coming to rest in a ditch. Eventually the two occupants managed to get out because the fuselage (the wings had been ripped off by the fence posts) was lying on the pilots side. Had it been lying the other way and the wings (replete with fuel) remained on - who knows..?
I used to own that aircraft as part of a group (before the accident) and when I looked at the wreck, decided that while I might fly a PA28 again, I wouldn't take my loved ones with me in one.
The math is very simple. If you do have a potentially survivable accident, your chances of escape from a heavy impact are 50% less than a two door a/c. So why risk it with the plethora of other types available?
And to those who think kicking a window out is a possible option - well maybe it possibly is but take a look at some images of medium impact crashed light a/c. In most cases, crawling out of the wreckage is the only option.

GliderGuider
18th Jun 2013, 15:14
Speaking from experience..........I was under instruction in the left hand seat of an AA-5 Cheetah which stalled onto a hedge and almost immediately burst into flames. Being a low wing aircraft with backward sliding canopy, I was able to open the canopy and haul myself out (albeit suffering burns on the way!). The instructor did not get out and I can only assume he was incapacitated.

Had it been a single door aircraft with the door on the starboard side, I don't think I'd be here today. I appreciate there are different accident scenarios but personally I think it's mad to only have one door and I avoid those type of aircraft whenever possible.

Maoraigh1
18th Jun 2013, 21:02
And if you dig in the nosewheel in an aircraft with a sliding or clamshell canopy and flip over? Only Cessna/Citabria/Piper cub type doors are likely to open, if you failed to open them before the crash.
(Most of my flying is with clamshell doors.)

FlyingKiwi_73
18th Jun 2013, 22:49
PA38 miserable ?
I think not ! The pepole who deride this aircraft ether don't understand it or don't have the skill to fly it with confidence.

AMEN! the PA38 is an excellent plane to fly and IMHO i great plane to learn in, one does not get away with lazy landings in the Tommie. Any slower than 65 on the approach and the boundary fence would probably be a nice arrester wire :-)

I fly the PA28 as well and the single VERY large door is fine, i just brief my pax on order of departure. Front Right PAX first followed by Rear Right Pax and the Rear Left PAX, I stay till last.

Plus the front screen is pretty big and would probably be short work for a crash axe, plus the seats fold very far forward, getting out would not be a big issue.

I guess the plus on the 172 is that i get to shut and confirm the door status as closed from the outside, this can be difficult on the PA28.

Plus that goddamn over head locking bollocks, which on a nice new one would be fine but a 70's A/C with worn clips tends to need more attention.

Odai
20th Jun 2013, 02:21
Thanks again for the input guys.

As an aside, there's a whole world of other (arguably better) aircraft beyond the PA28 and C172. Just because you did your training in those, doesn't mean they are the only choice post PPL.

True, but unfortunately none of those are available to me as I am restricted to hiring from schools/clubs etc as a result of my personal situation. There are a number of groups in my local area that fly airplanes without the issue being discussed here but I just can't financially justify buying an airplane or a share with the amount of flying I intend to do over the next couple of years.


Worry first about how you deal with gusting crosswinds, unexpected weather, how well you can handle an EFATO or control restriction rather than whether you might be the last person to leave the PA28, which as Captain I hope you would understand is your moral, if not legal duty.

Obviously developing flying skills in order to reduce the possibility of such a situation occurring to begin with is more important, but it still doesn't mean this issue is irrelevant.

I'm not concerned about being the last to leave the airplane, I'm concerned about anyone being able to exit at all in certain extreme cases.

Just slightly O/T, how helpful would the on board fire extinguisher be in such a situation? I've seen plenty of reports of people killed in airplane accidents as a result of the post-impact fire rather than the crash itself.

Tarq57
20th Jun 2013, 03:41
Just slightly O/T, how helpful would the on board fire extinguisher be in such a situation? I've seen plenty of reports of people killed in airplane accidents as a result of the post-impact fire rather than the crash itself.

If the source of the fire was within the cabin, it could be very useful. If the source was outside - fuel/oil etc (far more likely) I honestly believe it would be of very limited use, unless someone was able to get outside with it and attack the seat of the fire before the contents of the tanks went up.

I was a fireman in a former life. Those BCF extinguishers are damned good, but, like any extinguisher, if you can't get to the seat of the fire, they're as useless as anything else.

India Four Two
20th Jun 2013, 04:23
Odai,

Moving away from the single-door issue, my recommendation is to pay only one subscription and go with the C172. The PA-28 and the C172 are both fine aircraft, but the Cessna wins hands down for passenger flying, because of the great downwards view. As a bonus, the annual subscription you saved buys you one more hour!

Concerning fire-extinguishers, I had to use one once. Not after a crash, but when trying to hand-prop a Citabria on a cold winter's day at a gliding club. I was in the cockpit and after numerous starting attempts, the engine backfired and a fire started in the cowling.

The thing I remember is how quickly it is possible to vacate the cockpit of a Citabria when you are motivated by adrenaline. I even remembered to take the extinguisher with me!

cavortingcheetah
20th Jun 2013, 05:54
The forced landing drill on a PA 28 calls for the door to be unlatched before touchdown.
It seems probable that a passenger could hold this door ajar at touchdown.
Airmanship dictates that the pilot always has a forced landing field and an emergency escape route in mind at all times.
If it's your day for a flip and burn then that's kismet. But it seems a very arguable point that a high wing Cessna will flip before a Cherokee.
Better petition the CAA to allow pilots to carry cyanide pills in case of slow cooking possibility since you aren't be allowed to play the gentleman and carry a handgun.

A le Ron
20th Jun 2013, 22:46
Horses for courses. Fly the one you best enjoy flying. I have owned both a Cessna and a PA28. My preference is for the PA28, but that's just me!