Charging for flights with a PPL, is it possible?

[Matt7504]

Hello, this is something I have been wondering for quite a while. Now before you all shoot down this question, I am fully aware that it is illegal to be a PPL holder and charge people a full rate to fly with you. I do not charge people to fly on my PPL and do not intend to.
However, I have heard people say that there are rules where with a PPL you may charge passengers certain % for the flight and I was wondering if this is actually true? For example, say I was looking to fly to Dunkeswell where the landing fee costs X and then a friend of mine said "Oh would you be able to take me to Exeter International" where the landing fee is Y,would one be allowed to charge said passenger the landing fee?
I tried finding this in CAA publications but have absolutely no idea where to find it (If it even exists).

[Rhino25782]

I'm not aware of any rules that are specific enough to regulate if you can charge a landing fee to a passenger as a PPL or not.

I think the key point is to make a distinction between a private flight - possibly with a cost sharing (!) component - and a commercial operation. While this would always be a fine line, subject to debate, and to be judged on a case-to-case basis, I'd suspect certain parameters to qualify a flight as commercial: Are you just cost-sharing or are you charging the PAX? Do you have an own interest in conducting the flight or are you flying on the passenger's request? Do you advertise your flying in any public/semi-public manner?

[Howard Long]

The pilot can share the direct costs, but the pilot must pay at least their pro rated share. The number of people on the flight is limited to four people maximum including the pilot.

Article 267 here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/SummaryOfCATPTAWANO2009May2010.pdf

This may be changing as EASA have suggested up to six people and there may be other subtleties around the rule introduced.

There, I can still remember at least something from my air law exam that I took a month ago.

Cheers, Howard

[custardpsc]

the short answer is that you can cost share but you can't offer (hold out) to all and sundry to do or to publically offer to share rides except to members of your flying club if I remember correctly. You are expected to have a common purpose also. If we were both fans of horseracing and the choice was to go by car or plane together for something we had already intended to do, we could cost share on a plane. If I asked you to take me and said I'd cost share then thats a different situation. If you offered to take me and you weren't going until I mentioned it thats also different.

The rules are strict around this and rightly so, to protect the public. To act as an air taxi service requires a lot more than even just a cpl and a public transport category c of a and a licenced aerodrome.

Even private charity flights are strictly regulated - http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-E7DF1B3EE078BDCFC260A877F321287D/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIC/W/104-2012/EG_Circ_2012_W_104_en_2012-07-12.pdf

[Flyingmac]

The rules are strict around this and rightly so, to protect the public. To act as an air taxi service requires a lot more than even just a cpl and a public transport category c of a and a licenced aerodrome


I don't think a licensed aerodrome is required.

[BillieBob]

One of the tests that the CAA will apply to determine whether a flight is considered to be public transport is to ask "Would the flight have taken place if the passenger was not on board?" In the OP's case, his declared intention was to fly to Dunkeswell and only considered going to Exeter at the passenger's request. This would seem to fail the test on that basis.

[mixture]

For example, say I was looking to fly to Dunkeswell where the landing fee costs X and then a friend of mine said "Oh would you be able to take me to Exeter International" where the landing fee is Y,would one be allowed to charge said passenger the landing fee?

Even before the link Howard gave, it seems to me that the answer to this specific example is obvious.

You were planning to fly to Dunkeswell under your own steam. You had no intention of flying to Exeter until your friend asked you to.

Item 5.2 in Howard's link puts it more succinctly...
Having determined that there is at least one passenger on board, the next question is whether any payment has been given or promised which, if it had not been given or promised would mean that the passengers would not have been carried. If there is any payment which could fall into this category, consider what would have happened if the passenger had presented himself for carriage and announced that such a payment would not now be made. Would the passenger still be carried?

You might, however, get away with the cost sharing exception.... but that means you'd have to split the landing fee 50:50 between you and your mate.

P.S. The ANO also covers this topic.... Section 1 Part 34 Page 1

[robin]

All very interesting, but I've never known a CAA ticket inspector turn up and ask for copies of the cost-sharing agreement and evidence of payment.

There have been some serious breaches of the rules in the past, generally because someone has been daft enough to publicise illegal AOC.

As a GA pilot, I'm happy to fly friends and colleagues with or without cost-sharing (tyre-kickers excepted). As yet, for me, it has all been well above board with me paying more than the strict legal minimum share.

I still haven't worked out how to account for the beers or bacon sarnies, though

[Whopity]

Here is a useful CAA document called Is my Flight Legal (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1196/20071015IllegalPublicTransportPRCampaign.pdf)

Another useful document is here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/SummaryOfCATPTAWANO2009May2010.pdf)

[Howard Long]

Hello Robin

It is "all very interesting" because if/when, heaven forbid, something goes wrong and, for example, the insurance doesn't cover the "illegal" flight, I would not want to be in that pilot's shoes.

It's not like running your local village poker tournament, you can't pick and choose what rules you choose adhere to without some possible consequences.

Cheers, Howard

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Prove it.

Dealing in cash ain't just for dodgy extramarital excursions :p

[Howard Long]

I bow to your greater experience ;-)

[Johnm]

We've done this a thousand times:

You can't charge anything under any circumstances, but you can share if not more than four up (this may soon become six)

You can't advertise a cost sharing flight except in a flying club

You can't make cost sharing a condition of the flight

If you take three people flying and they offer to share the costs you may divide the direct costs of the specific flight by 4 and accept three quarters. If you own an aeroplane direct costs means fuel and landing fees basically, if you hire wet, then the hourly rate plus landing fees counts.

[TractorBoy]

Quote:
For example, say I was looking to fly to Dunkeswell where the landing fee costs X and then a friend of mine said "Oh would you be able to take me to Exeter International" where the landing fee is Y,would one be allowed to charge said passenger the landing fee?

Even before the link Howard gave, it seems to me that the answer to this specific example is obvious.

You were planning to fly to Dunkeswell under your own steam. You had no intention of flying to Exeter until your friend asked you to.



Hang on a minute. He's not asking for any money for the actual flight. If his friend offers to pay the airport charge for allowing the aircraft to land, why isn't that legal?

[Johnm]

If his friend offers to pay when they reach Exeter no problem, but if it's a requirement before hand that's a no no

[TractorBoy]

If his friend offers to pay when they reach Exeter no problem, but if it's a requirement before hand that's a no no

Ah fair enough. Could I suggest the following conversation then -

Pilot - I'd love to take you to Exeter. It's just a shame the landing fee's so expensive

Passenger - Oh thats OK, I'll pay for that

Pilot - Oh thats very good of you.

Job done !

[Level Attitude]

would one be allowed to charge said passenger the landing fee
As a PPL holder you are not allowed to charge the passenger anything.
You may, however, graciously accept a contribution towards the costs of
a shared flight provided the contribution falls within the rules as listed
by the previous posters.

If you go on a flight with a passenger under the assumption/expectation,
or even prior agreement, that the passenger will provide a contribution
to the costs of the flight and they then do not contribute anything, there
is nothing you can do.

[Monocock]

I know a chap (bog standard vanilla PPL) who charged £300 per trip across the channel when the volcanic ash cloud was over-exaggerated by the aviation world and commercial traffic was halted for a few days.

He did four trips.

[Maoraigh1]

You may, however, graciously accept a contribution towards the costs of a shared flight provided the contribution falls within the rules as listed by the previous posters.

But if you do NOT graciously accept it, and ask the passenger to donate it to a charity, you will make the flight illegal.
After taking a fellow PPL LAA Strut member, who was thinking of buying a Jodel, up in our DR1050, I did this, and he made the donation.
It was now a charity flight, with an over-65 PPL, in a Permit aircraft, which had had owner maintenance not checked by a licenced engineer, and with an away landing at an unlicenced airfield.:eek:
( I understand geriatric care under the Prison Service will likely be better than under the NHS.):)

[Crash one]

I know a chap (bog standard vanilla PPL) who charged £300 per trip across the channel when the volcanic ash cloud was over-exaggerated by the aviation world and commercial traffic was halted for a few days.

He did four trips.


I bet he wasn't dumb enough to come here & ask if it was OK first:ok:

[mixture]

Ah fair enough. Could I suggest the following conversation then -
Pilot - I'd love to take you to Exeter. It's just a shame the landing fee's so expensive
Passenger - Oh thats OK, I'll pay for that
Pilot - Oh thats very good of you.
Job done !

Erm, no. Job not done.

Pilot - Oh thats very good of you.

:=

The pilot needs to either split the costs equally or absorb the lions share.

Also, the fact you were leading the horse to water on the landing fee front might be frowned upon a little, since you were making the payment/contribution of landing fee a condition of the flight.

[cockney steve]

@ crash one
Thanks for the morning chuckle.
A friend with a share in a Chief (and access to a 152 and a 172) offered me a "jolly" when he was going...we shared the vehicle to the Airfield When we topped the tank after our fun, I'd sometimes grab the fuel chit, take it in and pay it.....we both knew the letter of the law, he would argue,but was presented with a fait accompli,-but what's the difference ,when he paid the meals and drinks afterwards (or not, as the case may be)

I appreciated the experience and gained a close understanding of light aircraft control. he enjoyed the company and reduced cost-so we could both fly more often. a win-win situation. Ahd, as [B][Halfbaked /B] observed,- cash leaves no paper-trail ;)

[mm_flynn]

I don't think any Authority will care or bother to do anything if a couple of friends fly some and wind up splitting the cost in any reasonable way. HOWEVER, if there is evidence of adverstising or ever a debate and the pilot tries to charge/make someone pay who objects, that looks very much like illegal public transport.