Do we still have an Air Force?

[ShotOne]

Have just enjoyed a splendid day at RAF Cosford; superbly organised, excellent traffic management, all personnel good humoured and professional, reds were fab.....but where were the planes? Only two proper noisy jetsall day and one of them (vulcan) didn't even belong to the RAF. Have the cuts really gone that deep?

[thing]

Yup.......

[Wander00]

Seems they do

[Dysonsphere]

excellent traffic management

you are dreaming or on drugs it took us 3 hours to cover 4 miles traffic managment was a shambles. We hit the queue at 0900 and didnt get parked till 1230 which is a joke. We will never go again.

[dereknf]

excellent traffic managementI think a few may disagree with that. Myself included. We joined the queue 8 miles from Cosford at around 8.45am. We found out about an hour later, having moved nearly half a mile in that time, that without a ticket we wouldn't get in. So we went home - disappointed. There are a few reports of those with tickets that didn't get in either.

We hit the queue at 0900 and didn't get parked till 1230 which is a jokeAt least you got in!

[ICM]

To answer the question as posed: Yes, we do. It's a good deal smaller than the one I joined in 1964, which was a good deal smaller than its predecessor in 1945. Want to change that? Get in touch with your MP, you'll do no worse than by complaining here.

And, notwithstanding all of that, it seems a good many people turned out to see what could be seen.

[smujsmith]

I couldn't get to Cosford today but we saw the Reds transit "pig on't hill" around 1145. Around 1430 this afternoon a real treat from a Spitfire, he did around 3 low passes over North "pig on't hill", near Asda I think, then departed to the North. Possibly a civvy owned aircraft ? Pity some had trouble getting in to Cosford, I always enjoy the place. Nice day for some spotting though.:sad:

Smudge

[Milo Minderbinder]

"We found out about an hour later, having moved nearly half a mile in that time, that without a ticket we wouldn't get in."

Incorrect I'm afraid
Most people were paying on the gate. I certainly did on arrival at around 12:00
The "tickets only" sign on the roundabout on the motorway exit was misplaced - it seems it was intended for one specific car park.
Agree the traffic was horrendous - but it was made worse by poor lane discipline on the motorway, and people trying to break into the hard shoulder queue early, unsafely rather than going to the end and filtering in turn.
Using the hard shoulder as a ten mile slip road was just downright insanely dangerous

[dereknf]

So what they appeared to have done is told people they wouldn't get in without a ticket then let folks pay on the gate anyway. Sounds like a major cock-up by someone.
Anyway, it wasn't a sign on the motorway. It was on the Cosford website in big friendly letters and on the RAF museums' T-w-i-t-t-e-r feed.

I hope the traffic management is improved for next year; not that it will affect me anyway. I won't be back.

[Wensleydale]

I am amused by the description of the location of Cosford on the official RAF Website:



RAF Cosford is set in the quiet and beautiful countryside of Shropshire, 150
miles (250 km) north-west of London.


Obviously it has to be referenced from the South East with typical Home Counties snobbery as no-one knows where the local major cities are!:}

[ShotOne]

I guess everyone's opinion of traffic will be based on their own personal experience on the day. Even after everything we still have several hundred jets...I suppose there was only one spare on the day!

[Wander00]

I have been to a few air shows on French military airfields - organisation has been superb - park on nearby disused airfield or out of town shopping car parks (shops closed Sundays), military busses run free shuttle, entry either €5 or €10, food fairly cheap so a family day out does not cost a fortune, and the shuttle back to the car park is efficient and quick. Leaving the car park a doddle.

Duxford a fortnight ago was good too (at least I have Friends of Duxford Seniors pass so £16 entry was not too bad), but free shuttle from Cambridge station was quick in both directions even without bus lanes near Duxford itself.

[salad-dodger]

Incorrect I'm afraid
Most people were paying on the gate. I certainly did on arrival at around 12:00
The "tickets only" sign on the roundabout on the motorway exit was misplaced - it seems it was intended for one specific car park.
Lucky you, not so for others by the sound of it. I guess you won't have read the bold red notice on the front page of the RAF Cosford Airshow webpage will you Milo, too busy monitoring traffic on the M54 :ugh:

RAF Cosford Air Show - Home (http://www.cosfordairshow.co.uk/)

S-D

[ZeBedie]

I was very disappointed with the airshow. None of the aircraft flew very low or fast. I thought the Vulcan display was pathetic compared to what I remember from the 70's. He didn't use the burners once and to display a Vulcan without actually making any noise was quite the feat, IMHO.

[Kitbag]

I thought the Vulcan display was pathetic compared to what I remember from the 70's. He didn't use the burners once

Damn, I wonder why?

[NutLoose]

Of course we still have an Airforce, I was drinking a fizzy beverage the other day out of part of one of them, suitably recycled of course.

[Echo Romeo]

I was very disappointed with the airshow. None of the aircraft flew very low or fast. I thought the Vulcan display was pathetic compared to what I remember from the 70's. He didn't use the burners once and to display a Vulcan without actually making any noise was quite the feat, IMHO.

that would be difficult since it doesn't have any :ugh:

[NutLoose]

Problem with the Vulcan is it will now be all about managing the hours / cycles etc on the engines after the decision to set of with the gravy train to the next station... I would think the Engine lives are the critical factor after the incident at Doncas....Finningley..

And as said, bar the Concorde testbed ( I think it had one, but stand to be corrected), none have had burners.


..

[ZeBedie]

none have had burners.

Oops - my memory playing tricks with me :confused:

[Heathrow Harry]

I'm trying to remember a major airshow when there weren't traffic problems - Farnborough is always a disaster, Fairford is probably the best (but still not brilliant

I guess when you have maybe 10,000 cars turning up on country lanes and all funneling into a small parking area there isn't much that can be done

[Bigpants]

Speaking of which, remember seeing a piccie of a "Vulcan Display" where the pilot came in a tad fast and the wing imploded into a shower of torn aluminium alloy frags and crew plus remains of airframe hit the deck a second or two later.

They won't do that again...

[Bigpants]

On the 20th September 1958, at 13.55, Vulcan VX770 crashed at RAF Syerston while taking part in their Battle of Britain display. The following has been taken from the file in the National Archives at Kew. For anyone interested the file is BT 233/403

VX770 was the first prototype Vulcan, and on this flight it was flown by a Rolls Royce crew, which included one RAF member, the navigator. The flight was a test flight for Conway engines, but with a request to do a fly past at Syerston if their timing would permit.* The crew for the flight was;

Captain; Mr. K.R. Sturt

2nd Pilot; Mr. R.W. Ford**

Navigator; Flt. Lt. R.M. Parrott

Flight Engineer; Mr. W.E. Howkins

All four crewmembers were killed as were three ground crew; Sgt. E.D. Simpson, Sgt. C. Hanson and S.A.C. Tonks.* There was one ground crew who survived bad injuries; S.A.C. Turnbull. The ground crew were associated with a ground caravan near the crash point; they were runway controllers.The map below shows the location of the crash on the airfield.



This was the second flight the aircraft made that day, taking off at about 11.20 from Hucknall, his ETA for Syerston was 13.55 after completing the trials part of the sortie.* At about 13.46 the pilot called Hucknall for clearance to do a low pass on runway 09, which was approved, and he then turned for Syerston with his ETA still 13.55. The Captain, Sturt, had been flying since 1951 and was assessed as ‘above average’; he had just over 1,644 hours, with 91 hours and 40 minutes of these on VX770.* Sturt was judged to be a ‘capable and careful pilot’.*

The following is from the ‘Brief description of the Accident’, which was in the file.* I have not included the Appendixes.

Mr. K. Sturt, a Rolls-Royce test pilot, was authorised to fly the Conway Vulcan VX 770 from Hucknall on Saturday 20th September 1958.* The flight was primarily for the Conway engine test programme but at the conclusion of the flight, and if the timing was suitable, the aircraft was to carry out a flypast at Royal Air Force Syerston as part of Syerston’s Battle of Britain At Home programme; after the flypast the aircraft was to return to Hucknall, an adjacent airfield.* Mr. Sturt was briefed for this flypast by Mr. Heyworth, Rolls-Royce Chief Test Pilot. It was to be two runs over Syerston at 200 to 300 feet and between 250 and 300 knots at 70% to 80% engine revolutions, making the same manoeuvre that Mr. Sturt had done at Farnborough Air Display on 7th September 1958.* At 1235Z Vulcan VX 770 called Syerston tower giving an ETA at Syerston of 1255Z. At 1250Z the Vulcan called Syerston Tower saying it was approaching from the West, height 250 feet for a fast run followed by a slow run.* Syerston Tower acknowledged this message and told the Vulcan that the airfield was clear until 1300Z. At 1257Z the Vulcan approached Syerston from the West and commenced a run up the main 25/07 runway at an approximate height of 80 feet (Appendix 5(iii)) and an estimated speed of 350 knots (1st witness).* A film taken at the time shows that when the aircraft was passing the Control Tower it started a roll to starboard and a slight climb; within 3/4 second a kink appeared in the starboard main plane leading edge approximately 9 feet outboard from the starboard engine intakes.* This was followed by a general stripping of the leading edge, the breaking off of the starboard wing tip and a general collapse of the main spar and wing structure between the spars.* At this stage the wing was enveloped in a cloud of fuel vapour. The aircraft was now level, with the starboard wing broken off up to the undercarriage wheel well. The Vulcan then went into a slight dive commencing a roll to port, which, at 45o of bank, increased sharply at the same time shedding the tail fin.* The remainder of the starboard wing was now on fire and the aircraft continued to roll to port with the nose lifting until the nose was vertical.* The port wing leading edge began to crumble and fire broke out in the port wing. The aircraft was now standing on its tail, travelling in plan form relative to the line of flight with the topside leading. The aircraft was then lost from view in an intense fire, reappearing with the nose pointing almost vertically downwards, having apparently continued its roll cum cartwheel.* It continued in this attitude losing height until the topside of the nose struck the ground. The port wing destroyed the fire/rescue Land Rover and runway controller’s caravan, killing all three of the occupants and injuring a fourth. All four members of the Vulcan crew were killed. From the first indication of structural failure to the time of the crash was approximately 6 seconds. The wreckage trail extended over 1400 yards.

The Board finds that:-

(a) The flight was properly authorised.

(b) The briefing of the pilot was adequate.

(c) The pilot was competent to carry out the briefed flight.

(d) The aircraft was serviceable for the flight.

(e) The weather was suitable for the flight.

Diagnosis of the Cause or Causes including all Contributory Factors

The primary cause of the accident was a structural failure of the starboard main plane. This is confirmed by inspection of the wreckage, cine films and photographs taken at the time of the accident together with statements by A.I.B. and the Chief Designer of A.V. Roe Ltd.* Although the strip examination has not been made preliminary evidence indicates that there was no failure of the engines.

The reason for the failure of the starboard mainplane has not been determined by the Board but the airframe wreckage has been sent to the Structures Department, R.A.E. Farnborough where a full investigation is being made. Additionally film analysis by R.A.E. is expected to reveal more accurate details of speed height and manoeuvre at the time of the accident.* This information was not available in time for use by the Board but in view of its obvious importance the Board considered that opinions as to the cause of the accident without this information would be of little value.

[BEagle]

Later accounts indicate that ill-disciplined, unauthorised aerobatics flown in VX770 by RAF pilots had damaged the airframe - and the damage had gone unnoticed because it was hidden in the depths of the leading edge structure. This structure was always specially inspected after a Farnborough display, but with no hint that the RAF crews had been trying to loop the aircraft, no deep inspection had been deemed necessary - it wasn't part of the normal A/F B/F....

[A2QFI]

Brunty was rubbish with traffic 2 weeks ago. Moved 200 yards in 30 minutes in a one mile queue. U turn and went home. How hard can it be to take £10 a head from the driver of a car and let them in? At least East Kirkby have it sorted - tickets on line and limited to 4000 - show then at the entrance and park in a 10 acre field with very competent marshals, job done

[sisemen]

Finningley used to be the best. We used to be able to arrange it so that some folk gave up and stayed the night in their cars. Result :ok:

[Biggus]

This seems to be a general issue with many airshows. When I used to take the kids to Fairford, many years ago, we used to park in Swindon and catch a bus in. There were specific bus lanes which ensured a fairly swift journey to a drop off point at one of the entrances to the show.

I also remember going to many airshows where the cars starting leaving well before the end, to avoid the jams. You almost had to decide whether to either leave early, missing some of the air display but getting out before the traffic jams, or stay late, put the kids on the funfair, and leave when most of the traffic had already gone...

[Krystal n chips]

Some "interesting and varied" comments here :

Cosford Air Show pledge over traffic chaos « Shropshire Star (http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2013/06/10/cosford-air-show-apology-over-traffic-chaos/)

[Heathrow Harry]

I understand that a motorway lane can handle up to 2000 cars per lane per hour free flowing - but I'd imagine a rural road would be around 500 - 750 - so if there are 10,000 cars visiting ...................

[Alber Ratman]

I stayed at Wolverhampton and started early getting to Cosford at 0630, the queues were starting then.. Didn't think about leaving until 1900 and it took me 20 mins to get out the rear gate.. Flying display was.. not as good as the old days, but as the Air Force has no money, what do you expect.. Lots of stalker for Carol though and I saw my old girl still in her colours and many old friends still serving.. A great day out..:D

[NutLoose]

Brunty was rubbish with traffic 2 weeks ago. Moved 200 yards in 30 minutes in a one mile queue. U turn and went home. How hard can it be to take £10 a head from the driver of a car and let them in? At least East Kirkby have it sorted - tickets on line and limited to 4000 - show then at the entrance and park in a 10 acre field with very competent marshals, job done


Problem with Brunty is the single entrance, never had a problem myself as I leave it a bit later before going, though to be fair I never went to the last one. I paid at the barrier, I suppose let peeps through into several lanes on the wide taxy way would be the sensible way to fix that.

[ian16th]

Silly question from the far south.

Is Cosford Halt railway station still there or did Beeching do for it?

[NutLoose]

Still there with the tunnel under it.

[lastgasp]

Only two proper noisy jetsall day and one of them (vulcan) didn't even belong to the RAF. Have the cuts really gone that deep?


Should have gone to the Welshpool Air Show twenty-five miles to the West. Same two noisy jets, BBMF etc. No traffic problems, drove straight in, £5 per person admission, and around 20 minutes to exit the field at the end.

[Milo Minderbinder]

"I guess you won't have read the bold red notice on the front page of the RAF Cosford Airshow webpage will you Milo, too busy monitoring traffic on the M54"

Sorry - don't know what you're getting at
The website said all the hospitality packages and enclosure tickets had sold out. Said nothing about the event being "ticket only". I checked that website very closely, just in case.
If you meant something else, then the sites changed so I can't see what you were trying to say.
As for monitoring the traffic, no I was driving past the traffic and using proper lane discipline. Took me just 50 minutes to get from Walsall to the car park. If other people knew how to do the same the queue would overall have been a lot shorter for most. Nearly all the delay was due to everyone queuing on the hard shoulder for ten miles, with lane 1 of the motorway near-empty, and the exit lane on the slip road similarly near empty. Rate of traffic off the motorway could have been doubled - the road from the motorway to the airfield was under capacity. I blame the local radio for reporting the "use hard shoulder" signs - which were only in the last few miles, but were interpreted as being for the whole motorway length. Dangerously crazy.

[Red Line Entry]

I believe that Cosford had about 18000 cars in their car parks by the end. Considering the limited access roads to the airfield itself, I think they did a cracking job in coping with a mass of arrivals brought out by the weather. Yes, the air display didn't have many fast jets, but that's never been the theme for an airfield with a less than 5000 ft runway.

[ABL262]

I'm afraid you have to go to the US these days if you want to attend an air show with LOTS of noisy jets.

The Chicago Air Show (which BTW is FREE) is truly remarkable. You pitch camp on the beach at Lake Michigan with the city skyline as a backdrop and watch open jawed as all manner of (mainly USAF) aircraft display over the lake. I will always remember a USMC Harrier in the hover with spectators in the water almost under the jet wash for the sheer thrill of getting blown about. AMAZING.

The air show at MCAS Miramar is an altogether more military affair with the patriotism of the country on full display ... they sure do love their Marine Corps. Full airborne assault demonstration in the morning followed by full bore flying display in the afternoon capped by the Blue Angels. They even do a night-time show if you are prepared to make a total day of it. Traffic management is a doddle as they simple park you among the row-upon-row of F18s and 53Cs. All the USN and USMC squadrons were vying for their latest "recruits" with free zaps and t-shirts. My kids were "adopted" by the Green Knights and received free t-shirts with the squadron motto "Have Gun Will Travel" emblazoned on them ... went down a storm at school when they got back. Stuff the Politically Correct lobby, I say!

If you get the chance just GO! You won't be disappointed.

ABL262

[Milo Minderbinder]

"you have to go to the US these days if you want to attend an air show with LOTS of noisy jets."

Not this year I fear......unless sequestration has been cancelled?

[Bannock]

No jets but IMHO, the Airshow circuits best kept secret. Doh !


Little Gransden Air & Car Show 2013 (http://www.littlegransdenshow.co.uk/index.php)

[November4]

Do we still have an Air Force?

Most of it will be in the skies over London on Saturday 15 Jun

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMedSFnCQAAgK1b.jpg:large

A formation flypast of RAF helicopters and fixed wing aircraft will be the impressive finale to Saturday 15th June celebrations for Her Majesty The Queen’s Official birthday. The flypast over London will comprise 32 aircraft of 13 different types from the historic Spitfire, Hurricane & Lancaster aircraft of the RAF Memorial Flight to modern multi-role Typhoon fighters, the Red Arrows Aerobatic Team and the RAF’s latest and largest transport aircraft, Voyager. In a couple of days we will reveal the formation.

From the RAF FarceBook page

[ExAscoteer]

Most of it will be in the skies over London on Saturday 15 Jun

No Albert in that line up I see.

[Shackman]

And the Typhoon's so good they had to name it twice:p

[Somph]

So, when do we see UAV's doing a flying display?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

[Training Risky]

The Vulcan is displaying in my home town on Saturday.

Based on the Cosford display, does anyone think I should travel a long way and sit on the beach just to see a very quiet fly-by?

Is it worth it?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

So, when do we see UAV's doing a flying display?

Given recent revelations, they are probably already doing an 'inverse' flying display - they are watching your antics!

[Somph]

"Zircon 7, put that soda down - we're flying down the Mall !"

[PURPLE PITOT]

What are the odds of the tri* being replaced by an african registered DC8 at the last minute?

[Pontius Navigator]

On costs in different countries, it is all down to national policies. In the UK the Treasury screws the MOD so the MOD screws the station and everything is costed, even the Red's smoke. Skilful accounting is no longer possible.

I believe only the BIG BoB shows get any MOD funding by allocation of assets, other shows have to pay their way hence the abundance of tat stalls.

Car parking problems probably stem from the reduced number of air shows which will increase the numbers visiting the 'big' shows.

[Tankertrashnav]

Anyone care to work out the combined ages of the aircraft in November 4's picture?

Even without the WW2 aircraft you could reasonably describe it as The Antiques Air Show :(

[Roger D'Erassoff]

PP - at least the Tri* made it to the rehearsal today...

[Heathrow Harry]

I gave up on Farnbro' & Paris years ago (unless I got an invite to a Chalet of course...)

Same aircraft year in, year out, horrible access, paying punters treat like dogs or worse, high cost..... better to go to the smaller shows - at least you might enjoy yourself

[PURPLE PITOT]

Ah yes, i forgot. The replacement would turn up 2 days later!

[BEagle]

Given that the AirTanker PFI 'deal' is costing the RAF £1.2M per day, which works out at £50K per hour or £833 per minute, for each and every minute of the next 23 years, it is hardly surprising that the RAF has so few aircraft these days.....

£10B+ over 24 years and you don't even get to keep the aircraft at the end of that time......:(

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, quite. I did some reckoning. The venerable Varsity was only 9 when I went through training and the Meteor a little younger. The Hastings was maybe 12. With the Vulcan the paint was still wet as we did the acceptance air test on one. The Dominie was another wet paint job. The F4 was also brand new and the Nimrod after that barely 4 with some still with wet paint. Even the Lancaster was only 25 when I was on it. The Shack was longer in the tooth 24 followed by the E3, another wet paint job.

Now?

[Wander00]

PP- and able to do only half the task................

[CoffmanStarter]

Just released ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMoyLIICQAQU2Ao.jpg:large

[Roland Pulfrew]

So no 'receivers' on the current, productive fleet of tankers and 4 on the very, very expensive, very, very late, future tanker (which only has a clearance to tank one type)? More spin than a fully erect AH!!

[BEagle]

So no 'receivers' on the current, productive fleet of tankers and 4 on the very, very expensive, very, very late, future tanker (which only has a clearance to tank one type)?

Voyager now has 'operational' :\ clearance to refuel Typhoon, but doesn't have clearance to use the centreline hose yet.

But as for the Mission System....:oh:

"Hecho en España" = "¡no funciona!"

:rolleyes:

[Fareastdriver]

It doesn't look as if they have got the Puma Mk2 into gear yet.

[Just This Once...]

No Shadow, Sentinel or even a contribution from the largest ME fleet - C130.

[Not_a_boffin]

Or SK, Grey Merlin, Lynx (all flavours) or Apache for that matter.

[smujsmith]

Apologise for the language, I didn't make the cartoon. But apt for this thread.

RAF - A day on the line - YouTube

Smudge

[TEEEJ]

The rehearsal caused a bit of a stir in Norfolk. :)

The Norfolk skies may have played host to an unusual visitor today after Air Force One was reported to have refuelled over the county on Tuesday afternoon.

Sources said the presidential plane refuelled mid-air over south Norfolk, accompanied by two Galaxy aircraft and fighters.



Did you see Air Force One refuel over Norfolk?s skies? - News - Norwich Evening News (http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/did_you_see_air_force_one_refuel_over_norfolk_s_skies_1_2232 193)

[A2QFI]

On the 15th of July 1953,RAF Odiham was the setting for what was, possiblythe largest display of military airpower that this country has ever seen.The occasion was the Royal Review of the Royal Air Force by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second,celebrating her coronation which had taken place at the beginning of June.
The Review,to which the public were admitted,consisted of two parts.The static aircraft park,containing over 300 aircraft was reviewed by the Queen starting at 1430(2.30PM).Later in the afternoon ,the flypast of over 600 aircraft of the RAF and Commonwealth airforces took place.

Full aircraft details here RAF Royal Review 15th July 1953 (http://daveg4otu.tripod.com/nos10.html)

Many RAF Stations were open for static displays and I saw somewhere that no Aircraft were borrowed from RAF(G). How things have changed in 60 years!

I am also reminded of a faux-pax when a flying display at Wildenrath in the 50s, was announced as "The largest display of RAF aircraft in Germany since WW2"

[BEagle]

I am also reminded of a faux-pax when a flying display at Wildenrath in the 50s, was announced as "The largest display of RAF aircraft in Germany since WW2"

Not quite as bad as a Confederate Air Force B-29 Hiroshima commemoration in 1976, using a training nuclear weapon simulator...

Usual cringeworthy Spam commentry droning on about "In a clear blue day in 1945, a lone B-29.....ending some of the darkest days in American history…", followed by a brilliant flash, loud bang and rolling petrol-fuelled mushroom cloud.

When the news of this re-enactment reached Japan, the Mayor of Hiroshima was somewhat miffed...:ooh:

[A2QFI]

That would not be the mayor who, on 6th August 1945, said "WTF was THAT?"

[Wander00]

What's he complaining about....THEY started it. And still we see reports of denial at the highest levels in Japan of atrocities, enslavement, compulsory enlistment as "comfort women". Rant over (but then one of my parents friends lived his life all the time I knew him with the after effects of having been on the Burma Railway. Captured in Singapore with the Middlesex regiment. RIP Fred)