Last flying Vulcan to stay in the skies

[Blue Bottle]

Saved for Britain! RAF¿s last flying Vulcan to stay in the skies after friends raise money for technological breakthrough | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2337573/Saved-Britain-RAF-s-flying-Vulcan-stay-skies-friends-raise-money-technological-breakthrough.html)

Great news...happy days :ok:

[brickhistory]

:ok:












..............................

[smujsmith]

Good news indeed. If nothing else the aircraft serves to salute the service of the crews, Aircrew and Groundcrew, who ensured we at least could stand a deterrent to over all those years. Look forward to seeing the triangle for a few more months yet then.:ok:

Smudge

[clicker]

I'm glad to see she will be flying on but I have my doubts on a couple of things.

My understanding of the final grounding was the wing re-spar and the lack of spare engines, the last two replacing the ones damaged last year.

Will the current engines last that long?

I'm no engineer so I don't know how long the re-spar will take but combined with the engine issue I also have to ask is this life extension cost effective?

Looking at the website and seeing comments like "We launch Operation 2015..Jun 7, 2013..but need public support for two more years." and "XH558 approved for flight..May 10, 2013..but we still need funds to reach displays." I see the begging bowl attitude still prevails and I don't like it.

[Tankertrashnav]

Public funds can always be found to "save for the nation" yet another painting by some Italian painter that very few people outside of the art world have heard of. This has not been the case to keep the only surviving V bomber in flying condition, hence the begging bowl approach, to which I see no alternative.

Very much looking forward to seeing 558 making an overhead appearance at the V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) next May!

[Wander00]

Not all good news then - what other historic restorations will lose out.

[Capetonian]

Maybe the government would step in to preserve this unique piece of history for future generations, rather than on supporting fat despots in far flung and often wealthy countries http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/516645-foreign-aid.html#post7884040

I'd certainly rather see my tax money spent on XH558 and similar projects than on limos and private jets for dictators.

[Wensleydale]

Not all good news then - what other historic restorations will lose out.


Meanwhile XM607 - arguably a much more famous aircraft that should have priority over a flying club - continues to rot away at an alarming rate. I wonder where all the V-force money goes?

[Dr Jekyll]

I'm glad to see she will be flying on but I have my doubts on a couple of things.

My understanding of the final grounding was the wing re-spar and the lack of spare engines, the last two replacing the ones damaged last year.

Will the current engines last that long?

I'm no engineer so I don't know how long the re-spar will take but combined with the engine issue I also have to ask is this life extension cost effective?

This decision is a result of an investigation into the cost of the wing modification (not a re spar), and remaining engine life.

As for engines:

Eight originally.

Two destroyed in the silica gel cock up.
Two already fitted at that time and unaffected.
Two spares fitted after the silica gel incident.

One which couldn't originally be fitted until minor corrosion had been fixed.

One removed earlier because of debris in the oil, this was probably left over from manufacture so not an issue, but it may have been due to an internal problem. Investigation now indicates that there is no internal problem, and the last I heard they were ground running it and looking for fresh debris. If the debris stops appearing in the oil the engine is OK, if it keeps coming there might be a serious problem after all.

So they do have 1, possibly 2, spare engines.

[BEagle]

...arguably a much more famous aircraft that should have priority over a flying club...

To quite what does that snide comment refer?

XM655 has been lovingly preserved in a fully serviceable (non-airworthy) state at Wellesbourne Mountford by a small group of dedicated volunteers and a supporters' club; the aircraft will be giving another taxying demonstration on 16 Jun. XL426 has also been looked after at Southend Eddie Stobart International, but not to quite the same standard as XM655; however, efforts continue to restore the aircraft to taxying condition.

There would have been nothing to prevent a similar level of dedicated support at RAF Waddington for XM607 - except, perhaps, sufficent enthusiasm and commitment?

[Wensleydale]

To quite what does that snide comment refer?

The original question asked what other historical projects would suffer with 558 flying on. I gave an example and why.

There is a serious aspiration to build some sort of cover for XM607 in her current position which would still allow her to be viewed by the public. However, with certain other projects sucking in lots of donated cash (while paying salaries) then those completely volunteer/secondary duty run projects sit in the shadows. It had been "hoped" (I will add no more) that once 558 had been put into static display then other deserving aircraft would be able to pick up some of the crumbs that had been left. Huge sums of cash are being thrown at 558 to keep her flying - a very small percentage of that amount could help to preserve other historic aircraft for many years to come as well.

[BEagle]

But to which 'flying club' did your earlier post refer?

[Wensleydale]

But to which 'flying club' did your earlier post refer?


I am sure that you can work that out?:ok:

[thing]

Personally I would rather see one example of a type flying than ten sat in a hangar on display. I understand though that it's better to have an aircraft on display than none at all. Who wouldn't like to see a fully restored Stirling?

[clicker]

Dr Jekyll,
Glad they have some spare engines. Let's hope they don't have any further engine hiccups, if they are down to one spare that to me is a risk, albeit worth taking.

Capetonian,
Fully agree with your thoughts.

[fieldsnail]

Just been displaying SE of Leicester

[Wander00]

That's Lunnun innit?

[Dysonsphere]

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/622/cosfordairshow2013vulca.jpg

Just watched her at Cosford normal stunning display plus some formation work with 2 small single seat display aircraft. Its a funny thing when 2 small pistons engines were noiser than the vulcan.

[grollie]

Saw XH558 about 15:30 flying westbound south of Birmingham Brought a lump to me throat. As i worked on her in 1985 on VDF.

[snapper1]

Wander00

Every silver lining has a cloud.

[Ubehagligpolitiker]

Cost effective?

Like the BBMF? Very little restoration work is cost effective the aim is not cost efficiency. It is to keep historic airframes flying and the UK has been bad at this.

Consider all the types that have been scrapped that with some foresight could still be flying.

[Wander00]

Here's an idea - get the CAA to agree to let the Harrier from USA fly in UK if the tin triangle is grounded......................OK, hat, coat and gloves.................

[smujsmith]

Dysonsphere,

Nice shot, there's probably not a more iconic aircraft in our skies today. We have to accept though, that one day the aircraft will become too unsafe to be flown. I hope when that decision is taken, people will remember, with pride, what a last fling she had. Apologies to Beags if she is "non PC" . :oh:

[Wander00]

Snapper sorry, missed yours - too true!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Consider all the types that have been scrapped that with some foresight could
still be flying


Nimrod, Harrier...:oh:

And in other news, London Zoo has announced that, since the decision to close at the end of the summer season, the number of extra visitors flooding in has generated sufficient income for the Zoo to stay open for one more year...

[hurn]

It should be pointed out that (surprise surprise) the Mail article isn't entirely accurate.

The funding has been raised only to fly THIS season.

The wing modification, while feasable will need further funding, namely another £400,000 pledged by October so that the work can be started and finished in time for the 2014 season.
Presumably if that money isn't forthcoming by October then this WILL have been the last season of flying.

Full info can be found here: Vulcan Operation 2015 (http://operation2015.org/index.html)

[NutLoose]

And even that isn't up front, which is why I hate the way they do things, the 400K is only the start, hidden away in the Pledge Q&A is


What will the £400,000 cover?
We believe the target is sufficient for us to complete the work required this winter to give XH558 sufficient flying life to reach the end of the 2015 season. Further funds will be required, for example to pay for the 2014-15 Winter Service and to supplement our commercial income to pay hangar rent and operating costs.

[smujsmith]

Points about funding noted. But, and there always is one, to my, accepted, limited thinking, the best example that could be preserved from the Cold War days would be the Lightning. Apart from anything else, it actually did the job it was designed for, intercepting intruding Soviet bombers/recon aircraft. With no disrespect to any ex V force crews, the Vulcan, Victor or Valiant never dropped a bomb over a Soviet country, unless you boys know better (respect for Black Buck). A lightning would be so much cheaper to maintain than a Vulcan, and could make more noise for the people who like "bang for the buck". Lets do it ;)

[bubblesuk]

The problem with the media is they either only give snippets of information or cock it up completely, if you want more precise and accurate details then the trust website is the place to go. There's no hiding of facts or figures but if you're going to rely on the likes of the mail etc then you're never going to get the whole story.

As for returning a Lightning to the sky? You're talking amounts not far behind the Vulcan, plus the finances would be the easiest of the gurgles you'd face.

[hurn]

Nutloose, yes when you consider that costs to fly this season were £800,000, you have to wonder what the total will be next year.

Does the £400,000 only cover the wing mod, or does it also cover all or part of the winter service as well?

It's one thing to raise £400,000 for the wing mod to be done, but will the supporters then be hit with a further £800,000 appeal on top of that to cover other costs and get to the 2014 season? :eek:
They've raised over a million before, but I think they should be a bit more up front about what funds it's REALLY going to take to fly next year.

Smujsmith, don't even go there! It's NOT going to happen. :oh:

[bubblesuk]

The £400,000 only covers the cost of the wing modification.

The yearly costs are always going to be £2m - £2.5m a year depending on the level of winter servicing required. The aim is to avoid a repeat of the shortfall in funds we've had in previous years.

[hurn]

So in that case, using this seasons appeal figure as an example, the full costs next season would be around £1.2M.

[bubblesuk]

Nope, see above.

[hurn]

Public appeal that is.

[NutLoose]

The £400,000 only covers the cost of the wing modification.

The yearly costs are always going to be £2m - £2.5m a year depending on the level of winter servicing required. The aim is to avoid a repeat of the shortfall in funds we've had in previous years.


How much an hour? :eek:

[Chugalug2]

smujsmith:
...the Lightning. Apart from anything else, it actually did the job it was designed for
So did the Vulcan (and the two other V's). Their job was to ensure that they:
never dropped a bomb over a Soviet country
The succeeded in doing just that.

[500N]

"the Vulcan, Victor or Valiant never dropped a bomb over a Soviet country,"

And IMHO, for that we can be grateful.

The Vulcan did show with Black Buck that it could have been done.

[smujsmith]

Chug 2 & 500N,

Point taken fully. Believe me I fully respect everything the V force did. I am just a little biased !

Smudge

[500N]

smujsmith

Nothing wrong with a little banter :O

[H Peacock]

Not only is XH558 sucking up huge sums of money and the associated good-will of the British public, it is also taking the lions share of all of the Airshow display budgets. The public attending each of the major air shows will expect to see the Vulcan display, but the limited Airshow display budget has so little left to pay for all the other wonderful aircraft that charge so much less.

A bold move to not book XH588 for your show, but sooner or later it will price itself out of the market.

[Pontius Navigator]

Just did a talk tonight at an historical society. I think the inescapable truth of deterrence is not 'if is could have worked' but if the other guy 'thought it could have worked.'

I wonder if Black Buck could have been avoided if a different approach had been taken. Rather than demonstrating that Buenos Aries was within range, stating that it was. Let them work out that two Vulcans at ASI was a militarily ineffective force but that two nuclear bombers . . .

Would it have worked?

[dragartist]

PN,
I hope your talk went well. Got to keep reminding folks of our heritage.

As a youngster (55) I remember the Black Buck quite well from the time. I was busy modifying Chinooks with Ex Vulcan kit but know some of our EWAU team were engaged fitting Carousel and other stuff for the mission. 30 years after I have just finished reading the book.

I always thought that they should have dropped something, even if it was just a leaflet, on Brunos Aeries to send that message. Not sure what the air defence picture would have been like but Withers and his crew were bold enough to make it through to Stanley through quite a storm. Then others went back to do it again once the hornets nest had had a poke.

The fact that you guys never had to drop a bomb on USSR was a success. You could have had you had too. As a result I made it to 55 without growing up speaking German, as could so easily have been the case had your predecessors not done what they did in 45. Thank you.

[500N]

If the Vulcan had been tasked with dropping something
on BA, would it have got through and of course back to
somewhere safe ?

Anyone know what the air defenses were like ?

[Dysonsphere]

If the Vulcan had been tasked with dropping something
on BA, would it have got through and of course back to
somewhere safe ?

Anyone know what the air defenses were like ?

From a polictial point of view better results would have come from bombing one of the bases been used to attack the task force. Bombing BA would have been counter productive.

[Pontius Navigator]

The whole point about deterrence is not would we think it would get through but would they think it could?

Of course a country set on invasion - Argentina and Iraq - clearly did not think things through.

I know Ted Heath was pilloried for visiting Sadam in 1991 but I always thought he should have taken some air power videos with him.

[OafOrfUxAche]

the Lightning. Apart from anything else, it actually did the job it was designed for, intercepting intruding Soviet bombers/recon aircraft. With no disrespect to any ex V force crews, the Vulcan, Victor or Valiant never dropped a bomb over a Soviet country, unless you boys know better


If the Lightning was designed for waving at Bears then why did it carry missiles? We didn't win the Battle of Britain by waving at Heinkels. The only RAF fighter which did the job it was designed for in recent years was the Phantom.

[Tankertrashnav]

...the Lightning. Apart from anything else, it actually did the job it was designed for, intercepting intruding Soviet bombers/recon aircraft.


Small point, but without a Valiant or later a Victor tanker waiting in a convenient location, the pilot of said Lightning would have been swimming home from somewhere North of the Orkneys!

Neither of those types have been preserved in flying condition (Teasin' Tina aside!) which is a shame, but I'm still really pleased to see 588 around the shows to represent the cold war period.

[Captain Radar....]

So there we were, family and friends having a barbie and a few beers on a quiet Sunday afternoon when the surreal sound and sight of a Vulcan at low level with its gear down gave rise to a great deal of exitement!

I guess they were on the way home after displaying at Cosford but does anyone know why there was a low level gear down pass over north Derbyshire on Sunday afternoon?

[BEagle]

To have Bombed a city such as Buenos Aires would have been a ridiculous escalation which would undoubtedly have attracted international outrage and condemnation.

Overflying the city at low level in the early hours, to attact a military aerodrome would have been risky, but less provocative:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/BB_zpsaaef509e.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/BB_zpsaaef509e.jpg.html)

About a 13 hr round trip, which would certainly have needed AAR support.

[Tankertrashnav]

To have Bombed a city such as Buenos Aires would have been a ridiculous escalation which would undoubtedly have attracted international outrage and condemnation.




My sister would have been pretty fed up too, as would my niece and her family, as they were living in BA at the time (niece still does), along with tens of thousands of other Brits. I'm pretty sure this option wouldn't have been considered, even for a moment.

[haltonapp]

If we had a flying example of everyones favourite aircraft there would be more historic ones flying than operational! Put them in a museum, saving the money, which can be better spent on the museum, rather than turning AVTUR into water!

[Pontius Navigator]

I never said bomb BA. I said convince them that we COULD. Then it up to a rational opponent to realise that we MIGHT.

The problem in both Argentina and Iraq is that the leadership was irrational and convinced that we would not try retake the FI or eject them from Iraq.

In both cases the wrong signals had obviously been given and the deterrent had therefore failed.

Only by maintaining the mystique of the nuclear fist can deterrence work. It was maintained throughout the Cold War, largely maintained by the US, but given additional credence with British and French deterrent forces.

[BEagle]

Only by maintaining the mystique of the nuclear fist can deterrence work. It was maintained throughout the Cold War, largely maintained by the US, but given additional credence with British and French deterrent forces.

Perhaps with regards to the Soviet Union. But against Argentina? Anyone suggesting that should be sectioned....

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, as for use, yes, but from the Mouse that Roared they might know we know they know we know wouldn't, but are they sure we know they know?

[NutLoose]

It was maintained throughout the Cold War, largely maintained by the US, but given additional credence with British and French deterrent forces.

And all held together with a good share of the worlds output of broom handles, plastic sheeting for the use off and bodge tape.


..

[Archimedes]

BEagle, as for use, yes, but from the Mouse that Roared they might know we know they know we know wouldn't, but are they sure we know they know?

Yes, Prime Minister: Nuclear Deterrent- Scrapping Trident - YouTube

1:55 - 2:18...

[Flatiron]

Right behind you, BEags
Back to the original point, RR are baulking at continuing to certify the elderly Olympus engines. Think about it - if one blows up, who will carry the can? Also the undercarriage has a very finite life. The V-bombers weren't built to last for 50 years.

[Dysonsphere]

Also the undercarriage has a very finite life.

No prob swap the gear for a museum one that dosnt fly, just get the spaere set reconditioned.

[Madbob]

Flatiron, how is it that RR haven't stopped all of the other vintage ac that are powered by RR engines such as the Merlin, Griffen, Goblin, Derwent not to mention older aircraft such as the Fury (Hawker) and Hind?

What's so special about an Olympus when compared with say an Avon in a Hunter?

MB

[cuefaye]

Bin it - it swallows to much. The project achieved what it set out to do, admirably, but I feel that it's now a gravy train for some. Other projects are now more deserving of public cash, and they'll help to invigorate the airshow scene. IMHO that is.

[BEagle]

Other projects are now more deserving of public cash, and they'll help to invigorate the airshow scene. IMHO that is.

Such as?

.

[cuefaye]

You, of all people, know! ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Flatiron, how is it that RR haven't stopped all of the other vintage ac that are powered by RR engines such as the Merlin, Griffen, Goblin, Derwent not to mention older aircraft such as the Fury (Hawker) and Hind?

What's so special about an Olympus when compared with say an Avon in a Hunter?

MB

MB, the difference is the Vulcan is iconic and unique and with 4 engines has a greater chance of a show stopper. The Olympus is possibly more highly stressed than the other engines mentioned which increases the risks of failure.

[NutLoose]

Flatiron, how is it that RR haven't stopped all of the other vintage ac that are powered by RR engines such as the Merlin, Griffen, Goblin, Derwent not to mention older aircraft such as the Fury (Hawker) and Hind?

What's so special about an Olympus when compared with say an Avon in a Hunter?

MB


Merlins, Griffons are still overhauled the world over, as for Avons well some still use the Hunter etc in service, so possibly not a problem..
Goblin and Derwents were built at a time when there were no calendar or fatigue lives for such engines and one would think RR are concerned over their continued operations, though they are relatively simple and low powered.

Olympus engines as in the Vulcan are no longer overhauled or built, are not simple nor low powered. Engines have a finite life even in storage bags which i cannot remember the figures for, but it was about 10 or 20 years before they required reoverhauling if the old memory serves me right, and to put it simply, the tooling, skills and spares to do that probably no longer exist, I would be suprised if a lot of the individual component manufactures actually exist any more either... Wasn't the Olympus not lifed on hours but on power cycles? in which case to increase their life one wonders if that is why people are saying there was none of the power on noisey displays at Cosford we have become use to, possibly to save engine cycles and increase their life?.

As said why would a major Aero engine manufacturer put their reputation on the line along with possibly being culpable if things went badly wrong at a show, I can see them possibly looking at the initial life they put on the engines they have, (which was lower i think that the service life in military use) based on their useage and condition etc, but at the end of the day it goes back to "why would a major Aero engine manufacturer put their reputation on the line along with possibly being culpable if things went badly wrong."

[NigelOnDraft]

Flatiron, how is it that RR haven't stopped all of the other vintage ac that are powered by RR engines such as the Merlin, Griffen, Goblin, Derwent not to mention older aircraft such as the Fury (Hawker) and Hind?

What's so special about an Olympus when compared with say an Avon in a Hunter?

MBI'll leave the pistons out, since I do not know.

For the jets, specifically Viper, Avon etc. there is no difference. RR do not support, service or overhaul them.

How their life is monitored / judged is a battle between past documentation, owners, maintainers and the CAA. I would suggest public debate is not worthwhile, but would be pretty sure that if the Vulcan needs more engine life, all is being done that can be done to secure that :oh:

NoD

[HoneyBunny]

Wasn't the Olympus not lifed on hours but on power cycles? in which case to increase their life one wonders if that is why people are saying there was none of the power on noisey displays at Cosford we have become use to, possibly to save engine cycles and increase their life?.


Yes the display at Cosford was a little quiet. Not like the ones I witnessed at Coventry in the late seventies, full on raw power that used to reverberate through your body. But if it means less wear and tear........

[Capetonian]

Vulcan to fly over Goodwood ? and on to 2015 - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/goodwood-festival-of-speed/10120983/Vulcan-to-fly-over-Goodwood-and-on-to-2015.html)

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but too good to miss.


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02590/Vulcan-2015_2590493b.jpg

[Dysonsphere]

Nice I have a differant version as my desktop:ok:

[Flatiron]

In essence, the CAA only allowed 558 to get airborne and display provided its integrity and systems were underwritten by a credible aviation engineering company. I think I'm right in saying that authority is Marshall Aerospace, with associate specialists such as RR also putting their reputations on the line. If they get cold feet, CAA will ground 558.

[GeeRam]

Quote:
Flatiron, how is it that RR haven't stopped all of the other vintage ac that are powered by RR engines such as the Merlin, Griffen, Goblin, Derwent not to mention older aircraft such as the Fury (Hawker) and Hind?

What's so special about an Olympus when compared with say an Avon in a Hunter?

MB
Merlins, Griffons are still overhauled the world over, as for Avons well some still use the Hunter etc in service, so possibly not a problem..
Goblin and Derwents were built at a time when there were no calendar or fatigue lives for such engines and one would think RR are concerned over their continued operations, though they are relatively simple and low powered.

Not sure about the Goblin support given that there was support for them until recently from someone, somewhere for the Swiss AF, same for the Avon in the Hunter that was in Swiss AF use until relatively recently. I doubt either were being support by a UK company (Hunter Avon's may have been?)

I maybe wrong here, but I believe there wouldn't be any support for the Derwent if MB were not still operating their Meatboxes. IIRC, the Derwents in the recently restored airworthy T.7 were built by the same team that do the Derwents for the MB aircraft.

[monkeytennis]

I' sure they could raise the cash they need by selling rides in it, after all you can buy a ride in a B17 in the US. Then again, 'elf and safety innit? :}

[sisemen]

I spent a long time and a great part of my service career associated with this aircraft. Having moved to Oz I have not had the chance to see 558 back in the air again. However, I am going to the UK in September and noted that she is due to display at Leuchars on 7 Sep.

I therefore wrote to VTS to see if there was any chance of being relatively close when she is winding up and preparing to depart for the display. I really would like to get some video of her taking off and the chance to show my Oz wife what a magnificent machine it is.

This is their reply.....

Unfortunately we aren’t able to host any tours on 7th due to the need for preparation before the Air Show, we do have tours available on either 3rd, 4th, 10th or 11th. If you would like to book one of these please either call the number below between 10.00 and 15.30, Monday to Friday or alternatively you can book online at https://vulcantotheskytrust.checkfront.co.uk/reserve/.

Kind regards,
Sarah
The Vulcan Experience Team

Sarah - I don't want a farkin tour of the beast because I know them like the back of my hand and I didn't ask for a tour. I just want to park myself in a quiet corner out the way with my camera and video the engine start, taxy and take off and then I will quietly melt away without giving anyone any hassle. Yes, I could position myself on the end of the runway at Finningley (and may have to ultimately do that) but one would have thought that the VTS PR machine could do a little better

[NigelOnDraft]

sisemen

I think what the VTS say is probably sensible. By blocking off the 7th, that caters for all the variables that may occur - she may pre-position to Leuchars for weather, other displays whatever, maybe even the day before. The slot at Leuchars is probably unknown now, and will chance multiple times between now and then, including on the day.

Doncaster, whilst it does not have many movements, will also regard itself as a "major international airport" and all the security blah that goes with it. The "tours" aspect will be with the aircraft "landside" and unscreened public can get near. At some point the aircraft / hangar / visitors whatever would have to become airside / secure.

As for finding a spot at "Finningley", that is more by chance / the airport security, timings. So yes, sure you might get a good video, but I can understand VTS not wanting to arrange / promise anything ;) One of the spotter forums (UKAR?) might be better to find where to watch from, and how to "glean" information.

NoD

[sisemen]

Fair enough NoD. But I do also know Finningley like the back of my hand and know that I can get good shots of engine start, taxy and take off from the centre hangar doors of 3 shed.

As I'm coming from half-way around the world and that this is probably my last chance of seeing an airborne Vulcan I would have thought that they might have been a tad more flexible.

(I'm even willing to part with a reasonably large wad for the privilege!)

[Capetonian]

I would suspect that calling them might get a more helpful response.

+44 1455 637864

[sisemen]

I'll certainly call but I thought that written (electronic) communication would be best as a starter.

[AtomKraft]

You should get pretty close to the thing if you go to Leuchars.

It will certainly be in the static display at some point, which means you will be able to go quite near it. A small bribe, perhaps by prior arrangement, ought to let you a bit closer if that's what you want.

Of course, everyone gets to see, and hear, it fly! :ok:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzdtYU7i_jY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBrH7UKkhAU

A fantastic racket!

[sisemen]

You should get pretty close to the thing if you go to Leuchars.

Unfortunately, when you've only got a few weeks virtually every day has to be planned and heading off to Leuchars at that point is impossible.

As an aside.......having planned everything you go to see someone early in the piece and they say "When are you going back?". Once you've told them they then say "Oh, you'll have to pop in again before you go".

No, I bloody well can't!!! Every sodding day is accounted for :ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

How about contacting the airport rather than the operator? The airport authorities will the ones controlling access.

A properly pleaded letter might get you in the control tower!

[Dysonsphere]

Wonderfull Video showing all aspects of vulcan training in 1960

RAF Waddington, Vulcan Bomber 1960 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=25_JEdHBESU&NR=1)

[gr4techie]

GIANT SCALE RC AVRO VULCAN XH558 LMA RC MODEL AIRSHOW - ROUGHAM 2013 - YouTube

Just use one of these at air shows :-) From a distance nobody will notice. It's also damn sight cheaper than fleecing the public for £2000000 donations year after year.

VTS reminds me of when the rugby club of my home city went bankrupt and they wanted the public to bail them out. When you looked into it, the public were not giving money to the club but to who owned the club at the time. What happened to the money then? The public certainly didn't receive anything.

[cuefaye]

but I feel that it's now a gravy train for some


I say again ---

[hurn]

You should get pretty close to the thing if you go to Leuchars.

It will certainly be in the static display at some point, which means you will be able to go quite near it.Pretty sure they wont be on the ground at Leuchars, but will fly in from Doncaster, display and fly back to Donny again.

Seem to remember reading something about the logistics of putting a team up there in previous years cost too much and they ended making a loss, so they just do a round trip from base now.

It'll be based at Waddo this weekend though and should be flying in tomorrow.

[The Oberon]

Putting the finances to one side for a moment but I have just watched 558 perform over Scampton and it was bloody brilliant, lots of noise, good climbs and wing overs well beyond the vertical, probably one of the best displays I have seen and it kicked up a lot of dust in my garden.

O.K. so I'm biased having spent 18 years on the V-force but I just can't see anyone not being impressed with what I have just watched.

P.S. It was a bit wierd actually as Dr Strangelove was on film 4 as it was displaying.

[Dr Jekyll]

Just use one of these at air shows :-) From a distance nobody will notice. It's also damn sight cheaper than fleecing the public for £2000000 donations year after year.

The public are not being fleeced, they (we) donate voluntarily.


VTS reminds me of when the rugby club of my home city went bankrupt and they wanted the public to bail them out. When you looked into it, the public were not giving money to the club but to who owned the club at the time. What happened to the money then? The public certainly didn't receive anything.

Are you suggesting the money donated to the Vulcan isn't being spent on the Vulcan? If so, how does the Vulcan fly? If not, what is the relevance of the rugby club?

[500N]

Dr Jekyll

I think he is referring to the people in the organisation who draw
a salary. It is mentioned quite a few times in this thread - and every
other thread on the Vulcan :O

[Dr Jekyll]

I think he is referring to the people in the organisation who draw
a salary. It is mentioned quite a few times in this thread - and every
other thread on the Vulcan

Of course it is, usually by the same people who accuse the the people behind 558 of being 'a bunch of amateurs'. Always rather amusing. But this doesn't explain the reference to 'the public' not seeing where the money goes. The implication was that it is all siphoned off by dark mysterious forces.

[smujsmith]

1450 hrs local, and the Vulcan has just overflown Pig atop the hill. Lovely to see an hear. Heading South Westerly.

Smudge:ok:

[hurn]

Landed at Yeovilton for Air Day on Saturday.

[smujsmith]

Hurn,

Thanks for that mate. Wondered where it was heading. Hope Yeovil have a great, Sharky free, weekend :=

Smudge

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

The people who know how to maintain and fly his aircraft are 'thinning out', so the reality is that it is all going to end quite soon. And I say that as a former V-force aviator myself.

Nice while it lasted but, realistically, it is time for a graceful shutdown. The benefit of that would be the aircraft remains in good operational condition. And it would stop, finally, a large portion of the well-meaning donations going to an underserving, self-serving minority who don't have the slightest interest in aviation heritage.

[cuefaye]

Stuart,

I agree, but expect to be mauled by the die-hards!

[smujsmith]

Funnily, I find myself into actual agreement with both of you Gentlemen (cuefaye and Stuart). There's something to be said for allowing an icon to pass in to history without the headlines "ancient aircraft kills 30 at air display", crew killed as vintage aircraft plows in to visitor centre, ground casualties unknown. It's a beautiful aircraft, rightfully admired, and more so, it's crews admired. It really would be a shame for it all to go for nought in the pursuit of glory.

Smudge

[Pontius Navigator]

Are we sure they will run out of aircrew and groundcrew?

There is no pool of WW2 aircrew flying the BBMF aircraft. Although we had wartime pilots when I was on the Lancaster and even an ex-flt eng remustered as gnd eng, when they retired others took their places.

There is surely no reason why new pilots could not be converted.

[hurn]

After this summer, and presuming they get the cash, it's got a maximum of another two seasons flying subject to doing a leading edge modification.

After that it's grounded for good, so I doubt air and groundcrew availability will even come into it.

[cuefaye]

they will run out of aircrew and groundcrew?

Did I miss something?

[smujsmith]

cuefaye,

Again, agreed. I have loads of ex riggers, sumpies, leckys and fairies who would happily contribute to this beast. Fact is it was taken on as a commercial project. Like everything manufactured, there's a point where economic viability becomes the major operating factor. I believe that the aircraft has had a great swan song, ensuring that yet another generation will be able to say,"I saw a Vulcan fly". Like you, I think that the flesh is willing, but, the simple engineering economics say its a nightmare to keep it going.

Smudge

[Pontius Navigator]

the simple engineering economics say its a nightmare to keep it going.

It probably always was.

I remember a lecture displaying aircraft serviceability against age. Initially it would have teething troubles, after a period of time it would settle down before components would wear out and increasingly complex and expensive maintenance was required.

In the 50s and 60s aircraft were as often discarded as out of date as much as out of life. Vulcan Mk 1s manage a bare 10 years at the most. The Mk 2s did well to do double that. At over 50, yes, 50 years of age this one is definitely at the top end of expensive.

[Wensleydale]

they will run out of aircrew and groundcrew?

Especially if they put silica gel on their cornflakes by mistake!:O

[Evanelpus]

Especially if they put silica gel on their cornflakes by mistake!

.............or glycol in the tea!:eek: