QWI Course

[alfred_the_great]

Chaps, quick question: who 'owns' the QWI Course process, how are students selected and is it seen as career enhancing?

More than willing to take to PM and/or DII as necessary.

[Courtney Mil]

I was in the SO1 Trg job at 1 Gp until I left. I used to do the final selection with OC Staff QWIs for each platform and a poster. Being a QWI certainly won't do your career any harm - more importantly it's the best flying qual you can have.

[alfred_the_great]

As a non-WAFU, QWI is not open to me, however I am curious (from a RN sense), how the process of creating a 'QWI' came about. At the moment we have Surface Warfare Instructors who either turn up and cuff it - on the basis of them being 'good eggs' - or want a quiet life in Portsmouth and don't mind the effective career foul for 3 - 4 years.

[Backwards PLT]

Alfred, think of QWI as equivalent to a PWO in the RN and you won't be far off.

QWI isn't compulsory for rapid advancement in the RAF, but if you look at Sqn bosses and Stn Cdrs the vast majority, in the FJ world, are QWIs and those that don't get FJ sqns/stns often get the other sqns/stns (Valley, Waddo..).

[alfred_the_great]

So less 'I' and more 'W'? Interesting - from the internet searching it seemed to be heavier on the 'I', but that's why I asked!

[Manandboy]

Beg to disagree slightly with courtney on his view that qwi is the best flying qual you can have. I know times have changed a bit, but in my view test pilot is still the best flying qual you can have. Most useful of all the fast jet test pilots were those who had worked as qwis first, but such overqualification is probably rare nowadays!

Agree entirely that it won't do your career any harm - I found it very worthwhile! Good luck!

[Courtney Mil]

Manandboy,

As a QWI, would you really have expected me to say anything else? Seriously, though, perhaps better to say the best qual for the front line. Most sqns don't need a TP.

[newt]

Cannot agree with you Manandboy! As a squadron QWI you are at the frontline when it comes to formulating the tactics and use of the weapons employed in your role. Add to this the instructional role and you have a much more advanced qualification than mere testing to point of release to service!

It may have changed and I'm sure the TP qualification is far more useful in civilian life but QWI is what all fronline squadron pilots should aspire to. It shows they have learnt their trade and are able to give something back to the new boys on the squadron. :ok:

[ex-fast-jets]

This hurts....................

But I have to agree with newt!!!!!

How many Sqn Cdrs/Stn Cdrs are ex-TPs?

Great qual, maybe, for subsequent jobs, but for career RAF............???

I was QWI HAR and JAG - I don't think it held me back.

By the way, for what it is worth, IMHO, the best job in the RAF is Squadron Commander.

[Sun Who]

What would the group like to say about QWI (ISR)?
No4 Cse due to grad next month.:E

Cat, pigeons - go!

Sun.

[Brian 48nav]

Excuse me for butting-in on a 'Master Race' topic but my lad was a Jag QWI, then TP (trained with the Frogs) and when back at Boscombe became CR again on the Jag Force. I think at the time he was the only CR TP and vice-versa.

It cost him 4-5 years in the climb up the slippery pole. Desk officer tried to talk him out of going TP as he was next in line for Flt Cdr on the Jag (this was Summer of '99). He declined and despite coming top of the French TP course did not get his scraper until 2004; what a way to run an air force! No wonder they couldn't keep him at his 38 point in 2007!!!!!

[Wensleydale]

Not withstanding QWI, it would seem to me that the most important "qualifications" required by the RAF are those pertaining to fitness tests and minorities awareness, closely followed by CCS and mandatory security training about laptops etc. If you don't pass these tests then you are out!!!

[newt]

Thanks Bomber!! I do believe you still owe me a beer!!!

HAR must have held you back but JAG accelerated you to the heights!!

[BBadanov]

a the g: "As a non-WAFU, QWI is not open to me, however I am curious (from a RN sense), how the process of creating a 'QWI' came about."

Before my QWI days the qualification had been developed from the merging of several streams. I think in the RN it was the AWI (?) and in the RAF the FAI (?). Something like this.

[Geehovah]

Not sure if anyone has answered the question.

Squadrons nominate candidates and a board decides who will attend. Ops Div at AWC owns the collective responsibility. It may have changed since I left AWC but at that time it was:

Collective ground school at AWC Cranwell
Back to OCUs for individual type training
AWC for CQWI flying phase at Kinloss
Central briefings/projects.

[PFMG]

On the subject of "best qualification" to have, I suppose it depends on the role the individual is expected to undertake. QWI, QWI(ISR), TP will be employed in different roles. Once moved on which qual looks best on a CV is probably a matter of opinion.

As for the non 2 winged master race I thought the asq qual was pretty highly regarded.

[LOMCEVAK]

Many fast jet tps were QWIs before becoming a tp. This is not surprising because the professional capabilities required for both jobs are much the same - above average pilots with a good analytical brain. As a tp it really helped if you were a QWI as well if you became involved in weapon delivery and weapon development trials. The fundamental difference between the two specialisations is that a QWI takes an aircraft and its weapons system and develops tactics and procedures to get the best out of it operationally whereas a tp helps to develop and get into service the aircraft/systems on which the tactics are then developed. One qualification is not better than the other and both specialisations are needed.

Probably the most satisfying flight test programme on which I worked was the integration of TIALD on the Jaguar. The systems development flying was done in a T2 and for about 90% of the sorties it was crewed by one tp and one QWI; that was combined testing at its best and most efficient!

[tarantonight]

BBadanov:

Before my QWI days the qualification had been developed from the merging of several streams. I think in the RN it was the AWI (?) and in the RAF the FAI (?). Something like this.

The RN (FAA) certainly used to have the letters AWI (my father was one back in the day). The lack of current fixed wing may have changed that..........I'm sure somebody with more knowedge will come back with an answer.

TN.

[Evalu8ter]

TT,
IIRC the RN now has the AvWO qual, with specialisation ASuW and ASW (can a WAFU confirm?). Junglies do the QHTI course run by the JHC OEU. No doubt the future F35 force will have a standard QWI course for both users - who knows, we might even get to a joint flying phase for QWI(FJ)/QWI(ISR)QHTI/QMETI...probably the only way enough assets can be in one place to make the course worthwhile!!

[BBadanov]

Before my QWI days the qualification had been developed from the merging of several streams. I think in the RN it was the AWI (?) and in the RAF the FAI (?). Something like this.

The RN (FAA) certainly used to have the letters AWI (my father was one back in the day). The lack of current fixed wing may have changed that..........I'm sure somebody with more knowedge will come back with an answer.
TN.

TN,
the RN AWI qual was the Air Warfare Instructor.
The RAF had, I think, the FAI - Fighter Attack Instructor.
I think the FAI qual was run by a TWU, and did not initially extend to individual aircraft types run by an OCU - I may be wrong.
Anyway, I think CTTO (Johnny Walker maybe?) developed this into individual type qualifications then run by the OCUs, which became the QWI qual.

The QWI concept is used by different air forces around the world. USAF has FWIC. RAAF has FCI.

[Scottie66]

If you have the ability and the opportunity...go for QWI. It will certainly help you onwardds and upwards, especially in this shrinking Air Force.

[Pontius]

This is not willy waving or piss-taking (which is unusual for me) but the RN fixed wing AWI was a QWI on steroids. The course was 'broader' than QWI because it wasn't so platform specific (but clearly it centred on the SHAR) and included much more of what went on in the rest on the RN, including some PWO stuff etc. Part of the course also included all the EWI stuff. So, as well as being able to do the things that a QWI would do: ACM training, AG training, cine debriefs :} etc, an AWI was also up-to-speed on all aspects of warfare within the RN, as opposed to concentrating more on his own, particular aircraft type. Because of all the extras that were included the AWI course took a year to complete.

This is definitely NOT a post to denigrate QWIs but just some extra info for Alfred, since he's RN and it might be useful if he's aware of the difference between the two service's warfare instructors.

[BBadanov]

Pontius: The course was 'broader' than QWI because it wasn't so platform specific (but clearly it centred on the SHAR) and included much more of what went on in the rest on the RN, including some PWO stuff etc. Part of the course also included all the EWI stuff.

P, not detracting from your argument at all, but a lot of QWIs in the FJ world I knew did or had also done the WEC and the EWI. I had, before I did QWI. But the navy AWI chaps doing a lot of PWO stuff, as well, is impressive.

[Idle Reverse]

[ Quote : “ This is not willy waving . . . . “ ]


Well Pontius, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a little bit of willy-waving on a quiet Sunday morning . . so why not all be honest and admit that the very best qualification of the lot ( and by best I mean the most useful post service ) is that of QFI. As long as it's an A2 or better of course.

There's only ever going to be a limited number of TP jobs going and few, if none, QWI jobs in the civvi world. But QFI ? Well most of the airlines like the QFI tag and there is always the lure of the goldmine for military QFI's out in the sandpit with the RSAF ( got to get your A2 though ) where the bottom line of the pay chit reads the same as the top. Lovely Jubbly !

And then when you're too old for any other professional airline training captain stuff you can always while away your sunny afternoons at the local flying club earning a few beers for your efforts . . . 'nuff said.

. . . . so having tossed in the hand grenade I'd best go get my coat ! :ok:

[newt]

Quite a long fuse on this hand grenade Idle!!

Maybe you should add a brief note, in six colours of course, to illustrate the function of a squadron QFI!!

That should get a response I'm sure!!

Now for the grass cutting!!:ok:

[safetypee]

IMHO such qualifications should be evaluated from multiple viewpoints.
A negative view might be too much specialisation, limiting some aspects of career advancement. However, if you are good enough to progress onwards and upwards, then the qualification should do no harm. Alternatively without advancement, choose a specialisation which has interest (hobby) for continued service or intrinsic value outside.

More positive views, suggest that qualifications do no harm, they indicate intent and ability. Most qualifications irrespective of specialisation enhance communicating skills and particularly those of thinking – technical application, etc.
Balance the interest / commitment aspects with a longer term view, personal / family, both within and outside of service.

From an old IWI view: first tour qualification, then OCU staff, and weapons related ground tour. The future was a re-tread back to the East Coast and less favourable two seat option – even with squadron promotion, and then back to the OCU/CTTO.
Volunteering for tp (perhaps in despair) sought alternative options. Interviews, etc completed, but no decision right up to the point of the new OCU course: – AOC level battle, IWI/OCU staff need vs IWI/tp need for a new AD project.
Tp option won, which in hindsight was most fortunate, even though there was no tp/IWI job after the course (project late), but research flying and dual tp tour enabled a most gratifying civilian option for the second half of a long flying career.
Of course you have to be lucky; but you can generate many aspects of luck by having more options / qualifications.

[ex-fast-jets]

From an old IWI view: first tour qualification, then OCU staff, and weapons related ground tour...........etc,etc.............Does that suggest a Lightning background?

And if so, what does the first "I" stand for?????????

Interceptor, perhaps??

So was the Lightning a fighter, or an interceptor!!:E

Hat, coat, I'm off!!

[safetypee]

Yes.
I recall that we intercepted bombers (a primary role), and fought fighters in other roles; being the best in both as the situation dictated.
Somewhat better than being a bomber and playing at fighting (fighter afil); and why always take a hat and coat when you went flying – expecting to walk home?
;)

[rlsbutler]

@ Badanov #20

I think the whole FAI/QAI/QWI scheme grew first as a property of the Central Fighter Establishment (CFE) which in the 1950s occupied West Raynham. Our Canberra squadron QAI (1962-65), the excellent late Flt Lt Nev Whittaker, was ex-Hunters and qualified (I think) while still on fighters. I suppose the OCUs collected this post-grad training role when CFE closed 1965 or so. At this stage CTTO had not been invented.

In my time TP was clearly a career cul-de-sac, with the qualification being more valued by foreign air forces and the aviation industry. One in a generation could hope to become Commandant of ETPS.

ASQ has been mentioned. As the successor to SpecN, in my time it held for navigators the kudos of QFI and TP rolled into one - and was a good career move. For a pilot like me it was career suicide !

[newt]

And I thought you had changed Bomber!!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Not_a_boffin]

For Alfred

the "wider" parts of the old AWI qual appear to be being dealt with at Collingrad....

http://cwd-r-web-001.cwd.dii.r.mil.uk/cic/news/2013/0613%20FIRST%20PRINCIPAL%20WARFARE%20OFFICER%20AVIATION%20CO URSE%20AT%20THE%20MARITIME%20WARFARE%20SCHOOL/FIRST%20PRINCIPAL%20WARFARE%20OFFICER%20AVIATION%20COURSE%20 AT%20THE%20MARITIME%20WARFARE%20SCHOOL.html

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Navy = AWI circa Scimitar/Buccaneer days
RAF = P(ilot)AI circa Hunter Days

RAF Buccaneer Force early 70s were first to create a crew WI cse and entitled it Buccaneer Attack Instructor (BAI). Eventually this evolved into QWI, which rest of FJ force followed. Hence: QWI(B); QWI(P); QWI(T); QWI(J) etc etc!

Where we lead the rest will follow!

Bloggs!:ok:

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Like Courtney Mil, I was a QWI

However, there were differences between forces. On the F3, the carry-over of principles and ethos from the F4 (and some from the Lightning) made the course and outcome certainly not 'I' in any meaningful way. In that I mean that QWIs were assessors first and instructors a very poor second (In my view as a QFI / QWI) It appeared to be more about Image (The Red Coaster) and less about passing on the real gen in real time. A Shame, but there were some notable exceptions to the F3 QWI Training flight's efforts, but this again in my view, was down to the specific student's own personal skills and personality.

Other forces, like the Jag / GR / and Viff, had a fantastic ethos of learning and endorsement of ideas, which I so hope the Typhoon has adopted. I guess time will tell.

Having Said that, It's a new dawn, and certainly a QWI qual indicates that you have achieved a level of capability which may be useful, but only in service, or working outside directly with certain defence contractors.

Advo

[cuefaye]

Spot on Bloggs. The prime movers being J Yates and The Bair - I think

[Megaton]

Idle Reverse

Well most of the airlines like the QFI tag

I can't speak for most, or indeed many, airlines but certainly a Big Airline near London attaches no special value to QFIs. During a recent recruitment campaign for TRIs/TREs, ex-RAF QFIs were sidelined during the recruitment campaign with little interest shown in their previous instructional background.

[beardy]

In the days when aircraft were dangerous and flying difficult the QFI was god. When aircraft became easier to fly and less dangerous and weapons became more complicated requiring difficult and complicated manoeuvres, the QWI became god.

You decide where the next difficult bit will be to see where the next gods will arise. For my money it's somewhere in force integration, comms, EW, robotics and pilotless ops.

[Idle Reverse]

Ham Fisted

(Quote : “ . . a Big Airline near London attaches no special value to QFIs “ )

And that’s exactly why I said most airlines !

The Big Airline near London has always been as you describe. I well remember chatting with an ex-RAF mate over a beer in a sandy climate somewhere who, at that time, was a FO with said airline. He’d been into the job for 2 yrs and when the chance came along he applied for a role as a Training FO ( not many other airlines offer that role ? ).

When asked why he thought he had sufficient experience to apply for the role after just 2 yrs with the company he merely said that having previously been the boss of the C130 OCU for 3 yrs might mean he could perhaps have something to offer.

Big Airline told him to go back to the line and wait until he was more experienced.

So you are right, the Big Airline near London puts little weight on the QFI ticket for it’s trainers but as a general statement the military QFI ticket is (IMHO) perhaps the most practical qualification to bring with you when you leave the service(s). Hats off to the QWI boys on the Sqn but outside, in general, a QFI ticket is more valuable . . . . ?

A knowledgeable interviewing board of course will be able to see the inherent skills that come with a QWI applicant . . . but my experience of getting a job / training job outside has shown the QFI ticket to be more useful.

Ps. Having tossed in the QFI hand grenade earlier, I have to say, the anticipated in-coming has been surprisingly light !??! . . I initially only wanted a little banter ! :ok:

[27mm]

Ah, the QWI (AD) course. The brief, the trip, the debrief; followed by the debrief of the brief, the trip and the debrief - IIRC, sometimes finishing late at night after starting at 0630.....;)

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Spot on, cuefaye! That's the pair!

Bloggs!:E

[Courtney Mil]

Whilst I agree that the QFI ticket or TP qual are far more attractive outside the Service, I don't think that was the OP's question. QWI is the one whilst one is "in", others may well be better in the "next life". Unless, of course you fancy a spell with defence industry working on weapons and systems.

Can someone tell me what use my C Exam, ISS and WEC are supposed to be to me now?

[Onceapilot]

Stop messing about! The best thing to help promotion is organising Brownies, Ladies coffee or Mess Sec.:bored:

OAP

[heights good]

The best qual is QHTI surely?! :E

[Piggies]

In what way?