FAA CPL 300 nm cross-country

[Zonkor]

FAR Part 61.129 [1] specifies the aeronautical experience requirements for a FAA CPL. For the ASEL rating, one of these is a long cross-country flight:

"(4)(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. [...]"

Two ways to do this come to mind:

1) A return flight (A-B-C-A).
2) A one-way flight (A-B-C-D).

Question 1: In case 1) the landing back home in A would count, so this is a valid flight for the criterion above?

Question 2: What constitutes a "flight" in the legal sense of the above? There seems to be no formal definition in the FARs. For instance, do the segments (legs) of the flight have to be on the same day, or can I fly A-B-C on day 1, and C-A on day two, or after a, say, 6 hour stopover?

Thanks for clarifying these pesky details!

[1] FAR Part 61 Sec. 61.129 effective as of 10/20/2009 (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/61.129)

[Dhu]

This document is very help in answering any of the weird regulation questions.
Enjoy....



http://faaflighttest.us/john%20lynch%20faqs/pt61%20faq.pdf

[Whopity]

One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, Does it not speak for itself?or can I fly A-B-C on day 1, and C-A on day two, That is two flights by any definition!

[englishal]

I think this is open to interpretation and only the FAA can clarify. When I did mine, it was over a couple of days, and I flew to one airport, stopped for lunch, flew on to another and stopped over night, then came back the next day via a lunch stop. The examiner was fine with this.

Really what they are trying to do is tell if you can fly a long X/C ok, so I wouldn't get too hung up on the wording. As long as you do the distances required then there should be no issue.

My X/C worked out about 600nm in total.

[Bob Upanddown]

300 nm in a day is easy. I have flown over 1,000 nm in a day many times in piston engined aircraft.
Why not plan on a 600 nm trip, to an airfield over 300nm away - fly there and back, landing at a different airfields on the way there and on the way back. Job done.

[custardpsc]

Been through this only a couple of months ago


Firstly the A-B-C-D method is quite acceptable as long as one of B,C or D is at least 250nm from A. The rule is pretty clear, but one of the FI where I was doing my commercial training disagreed with my FI, but a straw poll, a call to the FSDO and my DPE all agree, ABCD is fine as long as one is 250nm from start and the total is 300nm +

Secondly, Whopity, - sorry but the FAA interpretations on this are based on common sense not rigorous definition ! There is no definition of 'flight' in the FARs for this purpose as the OP correctly pointed out. If you dig into the 'john lynch' FAA clarifications and other letters of interpretation, actually what day it is or length of stop has no real bearing on the matter. Your A-B-C on day one and C-A on day two is in total only one flight for this particular purpose, for sure. They might argue with you about it if C-A was a month later or you really took liberties, but the final authority on this point is the DPE at the time of entry to your checkride. If he likes your x-c then that is that. If he doesn't, you can ask if you or he can call the FSDO for clarification, there is a hotline for DPE's who are in the middle of a test.

The real moral here is - get to speak with your DPE before you enter the checkride if you have anything at all that is out of the normal for the average american student in that position. My x-c flights for the private were mostly in the UK, I spent 10 mins showing the US DPE on google earth the x-c places in my logbook and he was ok with that. He then pulled me up on the lack of Night x-c DUAL I had, despite a UK night rating and 15 hours or so night solo x-c in the US and I had to do a 100 mile dual x-c before the checkride. Good to find that out before checkride day. On the commercial, I already spoke with the DPE about the 300nm x-c as mine is ABCD and he was fine with that.

[mm_flynn]

Secondly, Whopity, - sorry but the FAA interpretations on this are based on common sense not rigorous definition ! There is no definition of 'flight' in the FARs for this purpose as the OP correctly pointed out.

I think you will find 'cross country flight' is defined in the FARs as-

a voyage interrupted by periodic contacts with the ground, from which the aircraft can again fly following only moderate investment in maintenance or new pilot underwear, possibly allowing the pilot an opportunity to eat, fuel the aircraft, sleep (and or enjoy the hospitality of the natives). Such maintenance, sleeping and evening entertainment not to be of such excessive duration the DPE thinks the pilot may have forgotten why he set out on the flight

[On Track]

Why would you be trying to make it a two-day event anyway?

300 nautical miles is not very far to fly in one day.

[dublinpilot]

In fairness 300nm might not be a record breaking trip, but it's enough to bring you to some interesting place that you might not have seen before.

These days flying is very expensive. Best to make the best value from you flying budget. If an overnight trip makes it more enjoyable then why not?

[BackPacker]

If a trip you've done in the past happens to qualify, even if that trip was not planned to be a CPL QXC, then it's even cheaper. My gut feeling is that that's what's going on here.

I have several trips in my logbook that were not planned to be a CPL QXC, but might qualify as such, depending on the exact interpretation of the rules. (I have never done an outright A-B-C-A trip on a single day. But does an A-B-C trip, done in a single day, count under JAA and/or FAA? Does an A-B-C-D-A trip, with the weekend spent at C, count under JAA and/or FAA? Does an A-B-B-B-C-A four-day trip, where B happened to be an aeros contest, and C happened to be an unplanned diversion on the B-A leg due to a technical issue, count under JAA and/or FAA? What if somebody else uses the plane while you are relaxing and enjoying the scenery at one of the destination airfields? What if somebody else flies a leg, with you as a passenger or using a different kind of transport, but the total distance flown by you fulfills the requirements? Those are just some of the trips which are in my logbook and could possibly be used for the CPL QXC.)

[On Track]

And what's wrong with going to some interesting place that you've never seen before?

That's what flying is all about!

[mm_flynn]

Interestingly, despite having flown from Oklahoma to London with a number of stops, London to Prague, London to Malaga with a stop, London to Rome with a stop, etc. I don't have either a FAA or JAA CPL cross country, as I have never done those without someone else in the plane and they were all IFR.

The closest I managed was Fairoaks-Shoreham-Alderney-Fairoaks - alone, but IFR so no good for JAA and only 117 miles longest leg and only 249 miles overall, go good on that score either.

[BackPacker]

AFAIK the CPL QXC doesn't have to be done solo. After all, you have a PPL already so you're allowed to carry passengers. It's only the PPL QXC that needs to be done solo.

(Although I admit I don't know how this works if you do integrated training where you go from zero to CPL straight away, without a PPL in between.)

[mm_flynn]

correct for JAA, but I believe it has to be done VFR. For FAA it does have to be as the single occupant of the plane (other than a special case for some twins)

[englishal]

A-B-B-B-C-A would not count as A-B is cross country (XC) but BBB is no longer XC and so the XC segment ends there. The XC would start again BC so BCA would have to be enough to satisfy the requirements ;)

[custardpsc]

Actually A-B-B-B-C-A does count. Backpacker - most, if not all of those would be suitable for FAA if solo.

Before anyone jumps on me with a definition of x-c, remember we are talking CPL test entry requirements here, not PPL or IR For more info start with CFR 61.1 which defines cross country as a general term, followed by the requirements for cross country experience for various licences in detail.

(4) Cross-country time means--

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(4)(ii) through (b)(4)(vi) of this section, time acquired during a flight--

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate; (B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.


(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under Sec. 61.101(c), time acquired during a flight--

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft; (B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

It goes on to define 25nm for sport pilot xc , 15 nm for power chute etc.

If anyone really cares about the ABCDEF type argument read this:

Regulations Division - Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/?year=all&q=cross&bSubmit=Search)

The reality is that the definition with respect to time and route are extremely loose. No one seems to really care about those points provided the flight is 300nm with at least one landing 250nm from point of departure. The only person you have to satisfy is the DPE to enter the check ride. They review your logbook, if they like it they tick the box on the form, if not then you are not going forward to the checkride. There is no further scrutiny of the matter. I can't stress strongly enough - discuss this in advance with the DPE before checkride day if it isn't crystal clear. Send him a scan of your logbook page in advance if you have something not straightforward. They don't want to waste their time refusing to let you into the checkride on the day and you certainly don't need it.


The CPL XC does not have to be solo but if it isn't it can only be as per the relevant part of 61.129 ie with an authorised instructor. Passengers are not forbidden in that situation if with an instructor, but solo means solo. The wording about with an instructor but PIC started with multis as it was hard to get insurance to cover solo but also appears in the single engine section too. Here is the relevant part of 61.129, and note that it is silent as to whether it has to be VFR or IFR so in fact can be either for the purposes of this section.

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.

[dubbleyew eight]

In fairness 300nm might not be a record breaking trip, but it's enough to bring you to some interesting place that you might not have seen before.

These days flying is very expensive. Best to make the best value from you flying budget. If an overnight trip makes it more enjoyable then why not?

It is a training flight mate. You have to get the training out of the way to get the licence to enable you to use your flying budget for private flying.

I dont know why the original poster is so awed by the 300 mile flight. It is only a 3 hour flight. Just get off your arse and do it. get the licence sorted THEN you can go private flying to interesting destinations.

....you'd think it was difficult. :=

[peterh337]

The FAA used to publish a Part 61 FAQ, a copy of which can be found here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/), which states that the CPL X/C flight can be broken up.

The DPE doing the checkride has a wide discretion on what to accept, or not.

[proudprivate]

correct for JAA, but I believe it has to be done VFR. For FAA it does have to be as the single occupant of the plane (other than a special case for some twins)


The VFR requirement is no longer there since 2011.

[dublinpilot]

Quote:
In fairness 300nm might not be a record breaking trip, but it's enough to bring you to some interesting place that you might not have seen before.

These days flying is very expensive. Best to make the best value from you flying budget. If an overnight trip makes it more enjoyable then why not?
It is a training flight mate. You have to get the training out of the way to get the licence to enable you to use your flying budget for private flying.

I dont know why the original poster is so awed by the 300 mile flight. It is only a 3 hour flight. Just get off your arse and do it. get the licence sorted THEN you can go private flying to interesting destinations.

....you'd think it was difficult.


Why does a training flight and getting the most from your flying budget but making interesting trips have to be mutually exclusive?

[chrisbl]

If you are intending to return to the point of departure, then the flight will most likely be at 500nm long. Its easy to do in a day. I did one in November and managed Southend, Plymouth, Lands End, Henstrige, Southend easily.

[peterh337]

Its easy to do in a day.

Yeah, sure, fancy picking up the fuel bill? Really easy, just whip out your credit card. No trouble at all.

[On Track]

It's very easy to do in one day. And if you take two days, you will have the added expense of accommodation somewhere.

300 nautical miles is not a great distance. By my calculation it's about 555km, which is not even a particularly great distance to drive a car in one day.

No offence, but it does seem to me that most people in the British isles have a very limited view of the world.

[IFMU]

If you do it in a day, it is at least 500NM as you have to get 250 NM away, and then come back. Actually true if you spread it out over two days.
Bryan

[On Track]

Well if it's 500 miles that may be a full day's flying, but I still don't see it as a big deal.

[custardpsc]

> most people in the British isles have a very limited view of the world.

Not if you define british isles as 'islands where the british queen is on the banknotes' :) I think you'll find we are quite capable of getting around a bit under our own steam.

[On Track]

Well, Australia and New Zealand are islands that still have the British queen on the banknotes... regrettably.

[custardpsc]

Indeed.

I'd say that it was weather and gas prices that make a 300nm x-c a PITA in the UK rather than any limited view of the world or an inability to fly all day. I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that 300nm is an easy days flight, but actually, it is indeed 500-600nm if done in an A to B to A or at least 400nm in ABCA fashion and a factor here is the large number of fields that close relatively early, also because of the cost, it is not unknown for people to wait until they actually have a reason to go somewhere, which may then entail a night stop for their own reasons. Until JAR/EASA it was a CPL requirement to do the 300nm in one day for the record.

[IFMU]

On my first x-c that almost counted, I flew up to Maine for a wedding. Got stuck a few days due to a hurricane. Checked with the DPE, he had no issue with the multi day layover, however I had picked up my father in Portland and flew up to Bar Harbor with him as a passenger. That nixed the flight for the commercial x-c and there was nothing else I could mine from my logbook that came close to the requirement. So I did it on one day and visited somebody far away.

If you have a far away overnight destination you can fly solo to, staying overnight makes it more like doing something useful and it is more pleasurable to break it up. The commercial is not about sheer pilot endurance, that is what glider x-c is for.
Bryan

[peterh337]

Until JAR/EASA it was a CPL requirement to do the 300nm in one day for the recordDid the reg actually say that?

I would find it very hard to believe because

- how would you define a "day"
- what if you get delayed (refuelling etc) and the clock goes past midnight?
- what if the clock goes past the official night start (whose definition is not singular anyway)

This is why the FAA doesn't define it and I have never heard of anybody else doing so.

Sure enough the FTOs probably do define it thus but they can do what they like, and they want their shagged old Duchess back the next morning for the next punter to sweat in for his £1000 170A "flight test" :)

There is no issue with knocking off a 300nm flight just to get the logbook entry but it is a bit of a waste of a few hundred quid to not get something out of it.

[custardpsc]

Peter, Im pretty sure from memory that it did actually but I might be wrong, It would be in the old CAP doc for uk bcpl and cpl that I expect I still have somewhere. A quick search shows reference to the subject on here but only as hearsay CPL Cross-Country Qualifying Flight [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-237371.html) and not the clear reference I remember. Will see if I still have it