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View Full Version : need urgent advise regarding UK CAA rules and regulations on issuing license please


ramin noor
3rd Jun 2013, 14:50
i have completed my ATPL theoretical exams on October 2010, did my CPL on 8th july 2011, did my IR on 12th july 2012. in oxford aviation academy in the UK.

after my departure from the UK, ( i live in Australia) i have been contacted by oxford aviation and been told that they cant sumbit my paper works to the CAA to issue my frozen ATPL, because i have done the IR exam ( i have passed it) while my CPL was expired ( they informed me that i had to do the IR before the 8th of july 2012, as the date i passed the CPL exam was on the 8th july 2011, therefore ,the CPL was expired when i sat for the IR exam, and now i have to do a CPL renewal before the 8th of july 2013.

as i am getting ready to go to the UK now , to do the CPL renewal , i have received this e-mail below from Oxford Aviation Academy;

Regarding your training in OAA, their reply was as follow:

“Under EASA the course duration is 36 months maximum. you have commenced your training in April 2010, thus 36 months has passed. Although the course has been delivered you cannot get your licence as your skill tests have lost validity. Under EASA the 36 months may be exceeded if operational requirements necessitate it. In your case they have not, it has simply been his reluctance to re-fly the CPL skill test. Thus I believe your whole course of training is now invalid for licence issue.”

this email was very upsetting to me and un acceptable, i am very stressed now,, i did the course under JAA not EASA.
i passed the ATPL theoretical exams , on October 2011

any advise from anyone who has a good understanding of rules and regulations of the CAA please , there must be away for this

contacttower118.2
3rd Jun 2013, 20:52
I'm not sure exactly what the problem is?

Are they claiming that your ATPL theory has expired? In which case assuming you passed all exams with 18 months of the first sitting and no more than 6 sittings total the 36 months from which to obtain your CPL and IR starts from the passing of the last ATPL exam.

If you completed ATPL theory in October 2010 then you should have until October of this year to complete CPL and IR. You say you already have done this so I don't really see what the problem is. :confused:

Also what is this about issuance of a "frozen ATPL"?

There is no such thing as such as far as the actual licences are concerned. The CPL should have been issued after you passed that and then the IR attached to it when you passed the IR. Why do they (the CAA presumably?) make a reference to you having to "retake the CPL skills test" in their answer. Even if it needed renewing I don't see why the skills test would ever need to redone? :confused:

All sounds rather odd to me...

Edit to add: I assume you are doing the modular course at OAA?

2close
3rd Jun 2013, 22:23
PM me asap with:

Course Type (Integrated ATPL or CPL/IR or Modular CPL/IR);
Exact course dates;
Skills Test dates;
Exam dates;
Any licences/ratings held at present.

The CPL Skills Test was only valid for 12 months under JAR-FCL (LASORS 2012, Section D, Paragraph D1.4) but all may not be lost and we need to move on this.

ramin noor
4th Jun 2013, 03:35
the email i posted was sent to me by oxford aviation academy not CAA.

i was doing Integrated ATPL at oxford aviation.

exact dates,,i took ATPL theoretical exams in aug/2010,passed all,but failed 2 subjects.
so sat and retook the exams in sep/2011 ( a year later).
as i understand from what you have mentioned, the last setting should be considered sep/2011..however in any way , its still not passed 36 months

i did CPL skill test 8th july 2011, the IR 13th july 2011.
i was informed by oxford aviation , that i had to do my IR within the validation period of my CPL( 12 months as they informed me from the date i passed it), now since i did the IR after the validation of the CPL, i have to do a CPL renewal before my IR expires ,so they could submit my paper works to the CAA to issue my licence ,or the CAA wont accept your application,,all of that i was told by oxford aviation

but now, they have sent me that email i posted earlier, informing me that they believe my whole course of training is now invalid for licence ,Under EASA the course duration is 36 months maximumissue,because i have commenced my training in April 2010, thus 36 months has passed.

the training of the course started in april 2010 , but i sat for the theoretical exams, in aug and november of that .
i dont know what exactly they mean by that.

any help and advise regarding rules and regulation of the CAA.
i am trying to gather as much information i can , to solve my problem , as i am very stressed out now, and their response was unfortunately very disturbing

mad_jock
4th Jun 2013, 09:45
There is no such license as a frozen ATPL you can never be issued with it.

You can how ever be issued with a CPL/SPA-ME-IR/MEP though.

Its not really Oxford you need to deal with its the CAA and they can only issue EASA licenses. And if the new rules state 36 months that's what they will be sticking to.

You need to speak to the director of policy not the FCL minions who will only quote you what it says in CAP 804.

Get in contact privately with 2close via the PM system and see how it plays out.

Good luck.

Why did it take so long for you to finish? To be honest who ever did your 170A should have picked up on this issue never mind who ever deals with student records.

2close
4th Jun 2013, 11:21
Seeing as how the UK CAA will be issuing the licence in accordance with EASA Part-FCL, the 12 month validity period of a CPL(A) Skills Test no longer appears to apply - I cannot find it anywhere (but I admit I have not gone through 1178/2011 and the Annexes in depth, only CAP 804).

Furthermore,I cannot find any reference to any requirement for a licence to have been issued within 3 years of commencement of any course. The only requirement is for the CPL(A) and IR(A) to have been issued within 36 months of the end of the month in which the last theoretical knowledge examination was sat, i.e. by the end of November 2013.

Ramin, write back to OAA and ask them for the exact references on which they are basing their statements - such statements without reference are meaningless. As far as I can see, you are perfectly entitled to apply for your ME CPL(A)/IR(A) and OAA will be required to sign the forms in the applicable sections to confirm course and skills test dates and results, etc.

As MJ states, it is up to the CAA after that and not OAA.

ramin noor
4th Jun 2013, 13:30
2close

i have done the course in accordance with JAR, but now its EASA , so do i fall into that category now ? went through CAP 804 and its states that CPL(A) has no expiry date.

mad_jock
4th Jun 2013, 14:50
You have no option now its EASA as of Sept last year. They can't issue JAR licenses any more.

You need to speak to the director of Policy ASAP the long you leave it the less likely you are to get anything but get screwed around to have to meet modular requirements.

Oxford have no input into the license issue I suspect this is some rubbish out of there quality manual which has been signed off by the inspectors so they now deem it as law. The operational requirements rings a warning bell to me its a get out for them if it does take long that 36 months.

I did modular in 13 months from start to finish while holding down a full time job for 8 of those months.

Halfwayback
4th Jun 2013, 14:59
Ramin

I am sorry to hear of your dilemma but you really need to act fast with the authorities - CAA and to a lesser extent OAA - to clarify where you stand. Take the advice of MJ on this occasion.

Whilst asking the question in this forum may elicit answers the only firm basis on which to proceed is through the licensing authority.

HWB

ramin noor
4th Jun 2013, 15:18
i have just called oxford and talked to the training manager, who sent that email.
he told me that , my licence cant be issued now, because i have commenced my training at oxford in april 2010, i have explained to him that as i understand ,36 months starts from the last time i sat for the ATPL theoretical exams, he answered no, it starts as per EASA from the date you have commenced your course, it could have been expended for operational reasons, and i dont fall into that category.

i have passed my CPL, on the 13th of july 2011, IR 08th july 2012. but the CPL validity was for 12 months, i was doing integrated ATPL, the CPL was not issued, after i passed it, therefor the validity was for 12 months,he said, thats why i had to do a renewal CPL, before they could have send my application for the licence,,,,but now 36 months have passed from the day i have commenced the course , therefore i am no longer entitled to obtain the licence,and everything i did , doesnt count .
when i asked what is he basing that on, he said PART FCL . i just went again through PART FCL, and cant find what he stated

ramin noor
4th Jun 2013, 15:48
your right , OAA have just surprised me with this, in the end, as 2close and MJ said, its the CAA to decide.
licence authority CAA , i think calling might be a better idea , instead for sending an email which might take a long time to get a response. but i am lost , i dont who to talk to exactly, and i cant find a phone number for that department .

2close

you have mentioned that,The only requirement is for the CPL(A) and IR(A) to have been issued within 36 months of the end of the month,,could you please tell me under which section of CAP 804 (part,page,appendix if possible)

ground school, ATPL theoretical results,CPL(A)/IR(A) ,MCC,JOC, i have all that signed from OAA ,inthe applicable sections confirming course and skills test dates, results and completion of the course.
i have paid for the whole package to OAA, that included sending my application to the CAA, i am not from the UK,now living in Australia, and i thought , that it had to be submitted through OAA .
if OAA is wrong about my issue, ( can i submit my application by myself), if so , how to do that and where do i get the application from ,,etc??,,
i know i have to take a step as a time,,, but guys this is just a nightmare to me.

mad_jock
4th Jun 2013, 21:04
Well I can't find any limits on course length either.

And there is no limit on Cpl test validity either.

Only time limit is on the 36 months after your last pass on the theory.

You need to first of all phone back the oxford manager and ask for the exact FCL regulation number.

Also ask that they complete the application and let the CAA decide if they will issue the license or not.

Then if they refuse to give that get some money on your Skype account and do battle with them at the CAA until you can speak to someone senior.

Be warned though they may fob you off and you may have to get legal representation in the UK to start firing off letters to Oxford as the CAA may deem it to be a civil matter.

BillieBob
4th Jun 2013, 23:01
I assume that they are referring to AMC1 to Appendix 3, A.(a) - "The ATP integrated course should last between 12 and 36 months. This period may be extended where additional flying training or ground instruction is provided by the ATO." Although this is only an AMC, the convention under EU law is that published AMCs are mandatory unless an alternative means of compliance has been accepted by a member state. In this case there is no alternative means of compliance and so the de facto limit for an integrated ATPL course is 36 months from start date of the course. It is possible that the period may be extended but that will be solely at the discretion of the competent authority. There is nothing that CAE can do about it, you must speak to L&TS Policy at Gatwick.

The skill tests and examinations that you have passed will remain valid for the periods stated in Part-FCL but because the integrated training course is not valid, you would have to meet the individual experience requirements for issue of the CPL (200 hours total time, including 100 hours PIC, etc.), MEP (70 hrs PIC) and so on.

ramin noor
5th Jun 2013, 06:10
MJ

i cant find it either , his claim was that the validity was for 12 months , because the licence it self was not issue, although i have all the paper work confirming i have passed it , as well as in my log book.

BillieBob

assuming that it is compulsory, i have completed the whole course, and everything required for the integrated ATPL course, the ATPL exams,CPL,IR,MCC,JOC, i have all that signed and with me,, students training manager at OAA claims that i needed to renew my CPL, before submitting for my licence , since the 36 months is over from the date i started the course, it means that i havnt completed the course,, in a way that makes no sense , because i have completed the course, and under EASA , CPL has no expiry date, i couldnt find anytihing in CAP 804 saying that if you have passed your CPL, you have to submit an application to issue it, or the validity would be only for 12 months if fail to do so.
where do you guys think i stand?

i am trying to find contact details of the appropriate department in the CAA , talk to some about my issue, so far cant find any,,licensing authority,L&TS Policy at Gatwick,,,etc ...any advice?

mad_jock
5th Jun 2013, 06:51
That's understandable to be honest.

But it should have been highlighted before the event and certainly should have been discuss pretty much straight after the persons IR test and before they left the school to travel.

Bit of a kick in the teeth though with zero notice announcing that all the money you have spent is for nothing.

Its the fact they haven't even bothered giving any options either like what they would need to do to complete it modularly.

AnFI
5th Jun 2013, 06:55
!! RULES NOW TOO COMPLICATED TO USE !!


Can i have a guess at what problem this poor victim of this corrupt bureaucratic rip off is?

I think the currency of his rating may be expired - possibly there is some nonsense about the CPL flight test itself only being valid for 1 year - perhaps he just needs a current license? A P.C. perhaps?

Anyway no point in guessing - it is not possible to understand the rules or even the half translations of them CAP 804

If you apply to the CAA they will have no choice but to sweep this mess under the carpet by giving you a license - they would worry in case any grown ups discover what a mess their greed has left the rules in - Europe's fault my arse !

Auth Members: you should be ashamed of being part of a system which tortures poor people like this chap - can't you try and help in exchange for your overpaid pensions - we don't need ATO for private training - pass the feedback - stop gold plating.

It is AGONY to watch the suffering this greed imposes on someone who has probably lost his car, house, girlfriend / wife, self respect in his struggle to fly.... I feel for this chap

BEagle
5th Jun 2013, 07:47
i have passed my CPL, on the 13th of july 2011, IR 08th july 2012. but the CPL validity was for 12 months, i was doing integrated ATPL, the CPL was not issued, after i passed it

Why on earth didn't you apply for your licence at the time?

mad_jock
5th Jun 2013, 07:58
Because they can't the School does all the paper work.

I can't understand why they even let him take the IR test as the CPL wasn't valid. Or not just chuck him in for another CPL check its not as if the CPL test is even a proper test for them. Its just a progress point.

They must have known what the rules were months before September which should have been highlight to those affected.

b.a. Baracus
5th Jun 2013, 19:55
There is no reference in CAP804 regarding CPL skills test validity (as mentioned earlier in the thread, it used to be 12 months for license issue). I have recently queried this with the CAA and I am still waiting for a response. To the OP, best bet would be to get on the phone to the CAA and don't hang up until you have an answer! Best of luck mate.

Level Attitude
6th Jun 2013, 02:23
ramin
Hard to follow as the dates you give keep changing in different posts.
I understand: Course started April 2010, CPL Skill Test passed 8 July 2011,
ATPL Theory passed Sept 2011 and IR Skill Test passed 12 or 13 July 2012.

Why did it take you 10 months from passing all Theory exams to taking
the IR Skill Test - that seems an awfully long time?

Given what you quote from OAA's email:
it has simply been his reluctance to re-fly the CPL skill test
It sounds like, after your IR, OAA warned you several times that you
would need to take the CPL Skill Test again (before April 2013).
Why didn't you?

Going forward. You could argue that your Integrated Course finished
on 13th July 2012 with your passing the IR Skill Test.

For Licence issue you will, obviously, need a valid CPL Test pass.
As, now under EASA, there is no time limit your pass of 8th July 2011
could count.

However you undertook an approved JAA course where there was a time
limit on CPL pass validity so it could be argued that as EASA is accepting
JAA courses your old CPL pass is not valid.

As long as you can get agreement that you have completed a course, then
maybe all you would need is to retake the CPL skill test.

Edited to add:
In their email:
Under EASA the course duration is 36 months maximum. you have commenced
your training in April 2010, thus 36 months has passed.
As OAA are quoting EASA Regs then assume you are applying under EASA
rules (and not JAA) - hence your course finished on 13 July 2012
(or even 17 Sept 2012 when EASA came in to force) and therefore your
CPL Skill test is valid for Licence issue.

Hurry up your IR is only valid until 12 July 2013.

Good luck

Level Attitude
11th Jun 2013, 23:58
When you apply for a Licence you must have, or apply for at the same time, a Rating to attach to the Licence.

So, although you can argue your CPL Skill test is still valid for Licence
issue, it is not valid for MEP issue (am assuming your CPL and IR tests
were in ME aircraft)