Crosswind landing query

[shumway76]

I've been reading about landing in crosswinds, it always mentions:
1. Keep your speed up
2. Recommends using less flaps or land flapless.
3. Land positive - avoid long flares (forget about 'greasing' it)

My question:
By keeping the speed up, how do you land positive since your airspeed is on the high side? The aircraft will tend to float due to your higher speed.

[Pilot DAR]

I trust that what you've been reading about crosswind landings is the procedure in the Flight Manual for the aircraft.

Yes, "keeping the speed up" will cause a prolonged flare/float. All the more opportunity to be blown off the side of the runway. Though I agree that it might not be the Flight Manual recommended procedure - and it prevails - I fly EVERY landing with the maximum available flap extended. That means that you are flying or rolling more slowly, which means anything which goes wrong will take longer to go wrong, and have less energy if it does.

If I cannot maintain the runway heading in configuration, on approach, I'm going to have trouble landing. I will find a comfortable speed, which might be a few knots faster than normal, but never as much as ten knots faster. This is more an allowance for gusts, than the crosswind itself.

I don't so much land positive, as simply don't expect or work for a greaser. The technique is still the same, keep the nose up. You have lots of rudder effectiveness at touchdown speed, rely on it, rather than nosewheel steering. Do not land flat and fast, this is a recipe for disaster in a crosswind.

Try deliberately putting down the upwind mainwheel, and holding the downwind main and nosewheel for a while. The plane will do it, and there is nothing wrond with applying full aileron as the downwind main settles on. You're slowing down, and keeping it straight - without burning up brakes, or sliding tires...

It just take practice....

My person record for crosswind was 19 gust 25 kts direct crosswind while flight testing a modified Caravan (for crosswind control). It did require full rudder a few times. I have taken off the 150 in 38 G 43 kts, 30* off the runway heading, but I did not attempt to land back at that runway, I flew to one directly into that wind.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There should be no one size fits all method. It depends on the aircraft and the conditions.

High wing Cessna's particularly the ones with the 40 degree flap setting do better with less flap. I generally use 10 degs for these aircraft when landing with a significant crosswind.

Low wing aircraft that have less effective simple slotted flaps, like Pipers and Grumman's, do fine with full flaps in a crosswind and thus I use full flap for every landing in these aircraft

The approach speed is condition dependent. I use a normal approach speed in strong but steady winds, but add 5 knots for gusty unsteady wind days.

[Johnm]

For low wing aircraft I land with full flap every time on Cessna with 40 degree barn doors I might not.

Fly the approach speed as normal unless it's really gusty in which case rule of thumb is add about half the difference between steady speed and gust speed.

I recommend crabbed approach converted to wing down with about 150 ft to go, that will quickly tell you whether you can maintain the centre line and if you can't go around and divert. Falre normally with wing down and hold wing down until the aircraft stops flying which it will more or less as soon as you run out of aileron. Maintain into wind aileron throughout the roll out.

[Fostex]

Maintain into wind aileron throughout the roll out.

Probably the most important technique in a crosswind. It is very easy to think that once you are on the ground you're home and safe, it is the control inputs that is keeping you on the centre line so don't let your guard down. The same applies on taxi, make sure you have the correct aileron and elevator set depending on wind direction. Very easy to give yourself a scare, I have done on a few occasions due to being complacent!

[All-The-Nines]

I think that the frequently mentioned "add a few knots to cover yourself" is either not understood well enough by the average student, or not explained properly by some instructors.

Twice I've been sat in the right hand seat with fellow pilots on days out and bounced down the runway quite severely on touch down. One of them damaged the nose gear strut (luckily the prop didn't strike) and one of them lead to a 20ft balloon at which point the PIC finally realised it was time to go-around. Both pilots less than 300 hours and within a year or two of completing their PPL, and otherwise very safe/competent pilots. During post-flight coffee in the club house, when talking about the two potentially dangerous scenarios, both pilots commented along the lines of "it was a bit bumpy on approach so I was carrying a bit of extra speed just to be safe".

Safe? Of course there is a valid reason to add extra speed when circumstances require, but in my opinion I don't think the subject is properly approached during the average PPL course. I also am not particularly surprised at the number of prop strikes/collapsed nose gears that we hear in the AAIB reports each month.

[Piper.Classique]

Depends what you fly. DR 400 I will crab, kick off the drift, let it land on the mainwheels (both at the same time) using full flap and normal approach speed. Without the crosswind I would be holding off more positively for a slower touchdown speed. In neither case do I land flat.
With the cub I will do a wheel landing off a slipping final with half flap, ( which is 30 degrees), again normal speed, then the landing is into wind wheel, other main wheel. Tailwheel lands last.
Difference between a low wing nosedragger with smallish flaps and a high wing conventional gear with barndoor flaps....
Then one has to taxi, which is often harder!

[tecman]

Lots of good advice here, none of which I have any issue with. After mastering the basic techniques people have mentioned, you can allow yourself the luxury of tweaking a bit for your own aircraft and conditions. The main thing is not to develop unsafe habits based on folklore. For example, you might find you're comfortable using 20 deg instead of 30 (or 40) deg flap in your C172, and adding a very few knots, in a very gusty crosswind situation. Just make sure this doesn't become an excuse for far too much approach speed, or touchdown without a proper flare.

While I prefer to land with as much flap as possible, and as slow as possible, I have slightly revised my view since starting to fly very light aircraft. Even in a C150 you can do very well with conventional techniques up to quite high cross-wind limits, as Pilot_DAR notes. However, if you are flying an aircraft of (say) <2/3 the weight of the C150 and commensurately lower book speeds, you do start to become a bit more legitimately concerned with gust variations. In effect, the gust values can start to become a big fraction of your flying speed. By using a bit less flap and some slightly faster speeds you push yourself out of the ridiculously low speed regimes these little puddle-jumpers can operate in.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, I used to be confused about the action of the rudder pedal, thinking it was like riding a bike with your feet on the handlebars.... But it's not, It's the opposite. You push the pedal and the wheel goes towards that pedal... strange...

At one stage before I pressed a pedal, I was thinking out the mechanics of the situation... Press right pedal, pulls the right cable, pulls right bell-crank, brings more rudder to that side, which forces the tail to the left. You don't want to be going through all that thought process in the flare.

So I devised a strategy that helps me decide which pedal to press for a cross wind landing... On final I press the downwind rudder pedal, to see how much it really does align me with the runway, then I just lightly hover my foot over that pedal, to partially reduce the crab. For the actual touch-down, I give that pedal the full amount of push required. This generally ends up as a one wheel landing with the downwind wheel landing next then the nose-wheel some time later. Some aircraft require a considerably strong push on the pedal to get the amount of movement required.

If you are still confused, the Wind-Sock or Yaw-String always points to the ruder pedal you will need to press.

[Fostex]

You push the pedal and the wheel goes towards that pedal... strange...


Push the right pedal one yaws right, push the left pedal one yaws left.

Simples. :ok:

[Pace]

Yes, "keeping the speed up" will cause a prolonged flare/float. All the more opportunity to be blown off the side of the runway.

Pilot Dar

The only thing which will cause a prolonged float /flare with higher speeds is the pilot!
Why would you want a serious flare in bad conditions just fly it onto the ground.
You can land an aircraft with full flap, part flap. no flap,at speeds near the stall or much higher speeds.

As stated before my friend landed a Citation up at Edinburgh with a radar speed of 200 kts when VREF was 105 when he had control problems.
Mad Jock was there when it happened.
Landing and stall are not connected in the way some think.

Holding off/flare is A landing technique allowing the speed to diminish to the point that the aircraft starts to sink towards the runway but it is not THE only landing technique.
Any landing involves reducing the rate of descent to a point where contact with the runway allows the aircraft to remain on the runway rather than with a still flying wing to become airbourn again but that is technique.
Different conditions warrant different techniques

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

Why would you want a serious flare in bad conditions just fly it onto the ground

I'm not agreeing with this Pace. Bearing in mind that we're talking about light GA aircraft here (not carrier deck arrivals), most Flight Manuals have wording describing landings like "touch down on the main wheels first" (for tricycles). To assure a mainwheel first landing, you're going to have to reduce the speed. If you contact the ground at a higher speed than necessary, flying it onto the ground, you're most likely not doing that.

Though possible, it requires lots of skill. If pilots here are musing crosswind techniques, that skill is probably not with them yet. If you threepoint a tricycle, you're very likely to induce a pitching oscillation, or wheelbarrow it, and loose directional control. Or, you'll hit it hard enough to break a nosewheel.

I have no experience with jets, so I cannot comment on how they are landed, though I suspect that techniques would have some similarity, though many have spoilers to help you keep it on the ground.

I agree that in a crosswind landing, you probably want to minimize the "depth" of the flare, but you still need to do one, and get the pitch right at touchdown. If your average GA pilot cannot maintain directional control during a flare, they do not have the skill to land that aircraft in those conditions, and should land elsewhere. They should have determined this during the approach, They've left it too long if they're in the flare when they find this out.

[Pace]

Pilot Dar

What I am doing here is being pedantic to correct a misconception that stall and landing are connected as that tunnel visions the idea of landing into something which is not totally correct.
It also reduces the idea of other landing techniques in the future for aircraft pilots may fly.
Yes obviously light aircraft are different and in most situations you need to land as slow as possible for the shortest stopping distance.
Aircraft which are short coupled ie nose to mains will not tolerate a high speed landing as will long coupled aircraft for the reasons you state.
A long coupled aircraft only requires a tiny pitch change to take the nosewheel well clear.
But as stated I am making a point to rectify a misconception no more ;)

Pace

[sapco2]

During, or preferably just before the flare, apply sufficient downwind rudder to align the aircraft nose with the centreline simultaneously applying into wind aileron (that's opposite aileron to rudder) to prevent the wing from being lifted and to give precise directional control; continue holding off normally making sure the throttle is fully closed for a smooth and precise touchdown on the centreline... Simples!

[India Four Two]

I was going to write up my technique, but I'm lazy - it's exactly like Pilot DAR's ( post no. 2).

A key point, worth reiterating, is land on the upwind main wheel in a cross-wind.

I used to "two-point" Bellanca Scouts up to the 15kt demonstrated cross-wind speed.

[Johnm]

If you get the approach and flare right on most light aircraft in a cross wind using wing down technique (which is the the most flexible) then you'll land one wheel at time. First the upwind wheel then the down wind wheel and finally the nose wheel at which point you'll probably be holding full into wind aileron and the stick or yoke hard back.

[Big Pistons Forever]

To assure a mainwheel first landing, you're going to have to reduce the speed. If you contact the ground at a higher speed than necessary, flying it onto the ground, you're most likely not doing that.

.

Most light aircraft can touch down at a higher speed and still be in the landing attitude if less flap is used. This characteristic is most noticeable in high wing Cessna's.

Now if you are a 6000 hr test pilot full flap landings in virtually any conditions are not going to be a problem. However if you are a 100 hr PPL it is IMO reasonable that you should configure the aircraft in a manner that makes it easier to complete the manoever.

I have found that all of my low time students flying Cessna's did better in crosswinds if they restricted the flap to 10 degrees. The more nose up attitude in the flare reduced the chance of an inadvertant nose wheel first touch down while they worked at keeping the aircraft straight in the flare and the slightly higher touchdown speed helped with increased control effectiveness.

But and it is a big but, before you can get good at crosswind landings you have to be good at regular landings.

Finally I would like to clarify what I wrote regarding adding extra speed. I want to be clear that most crosswind landings should be flown at the correct speed for a no wind landing. It is only on very windy or gusty days that extra airspeed should be added on final approach.

There is a discouraging drip, drip, drip of GA landing accident reports and almost every one has a root cause of excessive airspeed on final.

[Pace]

BPF

Just as an example I landed a Citation at Gatwick at night in 70kt winds 20 degrees off the runway.
The biggest problem was shear all the way down the approach and AS fluctuations of plus and minus 15-20 kts.
With that headwind was I worried about landing too fast and running off the end of Gatwick?

With the chunk of airspeed I added to touchdown the aircraft was way over its stall speed.

Landing and stall are not connected in the way implied by some and no I am not suggesting little Timmy with 100 hrs does fast approaches.
Yes poor flying skills will mean pilots will land too fast or too long for the conditions and have all manner of accidents but that is technique and lack of flying skills and nothing to do with whether an aircraft can only land near the stall or way over

Pace

[bfisk]

Please, please, look it up in the AFM/POH. No two airplanes have the exact same reccomendations regarding crosswind.

Yes, you will find that some techniques are more universal than others, such as:

-Using a lower flap setting: May or may not be approved, and you may or may not have performance data avaliable. Remember that you will have to fly faster, so you may be performance limited. (Also, the look and feel will be different, so you have a good chance of screwing it up if you've never practiced it before.)

-Carrying extra speed: Gives you extra rudder authority, however, again you may run into performace issues. There is also the difference between carrying extra speed on approach, vs carrying it all the way to touchdown. Due to the landing gear geometry of certain airplanes, you risk either floating (to achieve correct touchdown attitude), or landing with a lower body angle. Results may vary from giving yourself extra work to breaking the aircraft.

-Wing-low vs decrab vs landing with a crab: There may be type differences as to what you can and should not do. Ie, some C172s have a limitation to avoid slipping with certain flap settings to avoid tailplane oscilations. On the other hand, the B737 has bank limits for the wing-low landing, to avoid a nacelle-strike/flap track fairing strike/wingtip strike, and thus it is approved, and under some conditions even preferred to land it with some crab remaining.

-Interconnect systems: such as on the BE36, may make it a bit more tricky to kick off the crab smoothly. Something to consider.

So, and the end of the day... RTFM! The guy who built it usually knows best :ok:

[flyinkiwi]

Dear OP, above this post you'll find a great deal of good advice on how to tackle crosswind landings. Now see how NOT to do it.

This footage was a landing competition day held 2 years ago. I was there (I flew that day but my landing is not shown). The pilots you see range from very low time students to PPLs with 100+ hours. What you don't really see is the terrain and treeline upwind causing quite a bit of turbulence on very short finals (and on climb out). That does not excuse the poor landing technique shown. I want this to be a learning exercise for any student pilots reading this thread, not a willy waving match about how superior your skills are, or how poor crosswind landing techniques are being taught in my neck of the woods. This film was edited to show the worst cases, so keep that in mind when forming your opinion.

lxoacmb7zxY?t=47s

[Big Pistons Forever]

lxoacmb7zxY?t=47s

Good lord :ugh::(:mad:

What is it with everyone holding a crab right into the flare and touching down totally misaligned with the runway :confused:

High wing Cessna's love a wing low slip with the aircraft aligned with the runway centerline in a crosswind.

[India Four Two]

flyinkiwi,

Thanks for posting that. I have never seen such bad landings. They reminded me of those flight-test videos of Boeings deliberately landing crabbed in strong crosswinds.

Obviously, the Cessna gear must be very strong to cope with that abuse.

[therealdooga]

Interestingly I recently read a travel report article in a German flying magazine, about a German guy flying down under (also New Zealand) on his vacation.

At one instance, when he began to slip his plane down onto final as he was coming in a bit high, the NZ safety pilot he had along apparently got into a light panic and took the controls from him, saying something like "we don't do that here, never ever!"
If that is true it might explain why the guys in this video crab in like that. Beats me what's to say against a good slip, though...

[Pace]

BPF

I just get video not available!

With incipient this and incipient that in training nowadays I am not surprised that pilots are taught to make arrivals rather than land and fly aircraft!
Churning out aeroplane drivers rather than pilots springs to mind!

Pace

[sapco2]

Landing with all the crab on seems pretty foolhardy to me. There are swept wing types (B757 is just one example) which are designed to cope with huge side loads on landing - 40kt is the cross wind limit on that type. Frankly though, I am not keen on putting the theory to the test because I don't like drift in the flare!

I find it far simpler and much safer, even when flying the B757 in strong cross winds conditions to simply cross control on approach, it gives me much more control over whats happening with the added advantage of enabling me to land every time bang on the centre line. There are aileron/spoiler considerations for the swept wing pilots to consider before using this technique but that's another story! I use the same method when flying light aircraft.

Follow the FOH as one previous poster suggested every time, and adhere to cross wind limits but flying cross controls during the final stages of the approach will give you a far better idea of how much rudder authority you have left available well before the critical stage of actually landing the aircraft.

Well that's humble take on the subject anyway!

[tecman]

I think it's wrong to try and generalize much from this. This particular pilot clearly has trouble with the transition to wing-down in the combination technique. I'm quite happy to fly a wing-down approach, or a combination, and have no axe to grind either way. But what we're seeing here is an individual problem. The crosswind is a little gusty but it's not really at the level of being challenging for anyone with reasonable experience and technique. Maybe the guy was a student?

[India Four Two]

Maybe the guy was a student?

tecman,

There are multiple aircraft in the video, all making bad landings. flyinkiwi said it was a landing competition.

therealdooga,

I've flown with five different Kiwi instructors in five different types and I've done slips in all of them, without any negative comments.

[tecman]

IFT..thanks for that. The video was pretty hard to view on the IPAD 1 I had at hand. I guess they were all having a bad day. Or maybe there's some local training factor whereby the second part of the combination method is not taught well.

[flyinkiwi]

I think it's wrong to try and generalize much from this.
I guess they were all having a bad day. Or maybe there's some local training factor whereby the second part of the combination method is not taught well.

Not following your own advice Tecman? I thought very hard about posting this video to PPRUNE because I suspected people would get the wrong ideas about flight training in my country. I reiterate, this film was edited to show the worst landings of the day - it does not show ALL the landings (including mine).

That day was the roughest conditions I have ever had to deal with. After my first overshoot I shelved all notions of competing and went into survival mode, my goal being to land safely without bending anything. I am happy to report that everyone landed safely without injury or damage to the aircraft.

[tecman]

FK, I was trying to be charitable, especially when I thought I had one data point. When I said "local", I meant very local: I've seen occasionally clubs etc here in Oz where odd ideas have left their mark. We probably don't get the best idea from the windsock, but the sock and the crab angles make it look like it wasn't the very worst day to land an aircraft. Regardless, I applaud your own decision making but you might concede that a cohort of pilots who think it's OK to land side-ways gives pause for thought. Maybe some pics of the good landings of the day would balance things up?

[India Four Two]

flyinkiwi,

I think you did the right thing by posting that video. It is very good for discussion purposes. I have a couple of questions concerning that day.

What was the wind speed in terms of steady and gusts and at what angle to the runway?

Were any contestants (that you didn't show) using the wing-down technique? Were there any good landings (apart from yours, of course ;))?

I was amazed by the performance of the 180 (185?) pilot. I would have thought that anyone flying a Cessna taildragger would have good handling skills.

Thinking back over my flying years, I realize that I haven't watched many serious cross-wind landings, except at gliding fields, where the pilots are usually very experienced.

Looking at the video, it seems that the pilots you showed were all from the "kick off the drift" school. Perhaps that was all they were ever shown. That technique works quite well in mild crosswinds, but clearly was difficult in the conditions in your video.

My crosswind landings, and more importantly, my confidence improved rapidly after I was shown the wing-down technique.

[flyinkiwi]

Tecman, that video is not mine, it was not filmed by me and I was unaware of its existence until after it appeared on YouTube. I wish a movie showing proper technique under those conditions exists because I definitely would have posted it as a counterpoint.

I42:

What was the wind speed in terms of steady and gusts and at what angle to the runway?
It was blowing about 17-20 knots at right angles to the runway. It was fairly steady and smooth at altitude but as you can see down low flying was akin to being in a tumble dryer.
Were any contestants (that you didn't show) using the wing-down technique? As I said, I didn't make that video. As I was competing I didn't see all the landings but the ones I did see were crab and kick. I thought the taildragger would have flown the wing down technique, but the video shows otherwise...

Were there any good landings (apart from yours, of course http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif)?Mine was not pretty, but nowhere near as bad as those ones. The guy who won the competition put his plane down in the 50 point box like it was on rails. I am trying to think of the percentage of shown vs not shown landings, but at a guess I would say about 75% are not there. Remember this competition was held over about 6 hours.

[howzitt]

Hi there,
I applied the technique you described for Crosswind Landings on my skills test on Sunday 6th October,worked for the examiner as well,cheers,
Al.

[Desert185]

Airplanes have been landing in crosswinds for decades and there is still argument about how to do it properly. Another example of management by committee.

Slip on final or crab on final? If you are an instrument rated pilot flying an airplane with an autopilot, you should manually fly final the same way the airplane does with the autopilot coupled...in a crab. Even though my little spam can doesn't have an autopilot, I personally always use the crab technique, FWIW. I mention this because I have had this discussion with Bonanza and Centurion owners who swear that slipping is the best method...and then I ask how they get their autopilot to slip on final when coupled up. Wouldn't you want your sight picture and technique to be the same all time, especially when popping out of the clouds at minimums? If you ever transition to larger airplanes, crab on final is the technique to know.

All I can add without getting more specific and relating personal experience is that the committee doesn't exist when you are flying the airplane. Read the book, listen to a good instructor with time in type and perhaps with specific experience in what you want to do with the airplane, and then work out the details that suit you best.

Practice landings with zero flaps, partial flaps and full flaps under conditions leading up to the aircraft limit or your own personal limits. What I do with my airplane at my level of experience, whether more or less than your level of experience, may not suit your particular situation. See what works best for you.

There may also be a time when those electric or hydraulic actuated flaps don't work...which may not be the optimum circumstance to experience your aircraft's new-to-you handling.

Being landing approach related, I will say that aircraft with flap gap seals will glide/float much farther and slow down noticeably slower than those without the aftermarket seals when in a flap up condition. If you expect to glide a certain distance with a stock wing and then try a no flap in a flap gap seal equipped airplane, you're in for a surprise. The reverse is also something to consider, but perhaps in a more negative manner if you are expecting a longer glide distance. This is something most CFI's don't consider or highlight during a checkout in a mixed fleet environment.

[scotbill]

and then I ask how they get their autopilot to slip on final when coupled up. Wouldn't you want your sight picture and technique to be the same all time, especially when popping out of the clouds at minimums? If you ever transition to larger airplanes, crab on final is the technique to knowIt isn't clear what your experience of large airplanes is but the B757/67 autopilots will give an immaculate demonstration of a crossed control/slip approach.
Crab to minima tempts the pilot to straighten up when the lights come into view with a consequent downwind drift that opens a whole can of worms in trying to retrieve the situation at low level.
Kicking off crab in a large airplane at the last minute requires a measure of fine judgement only gained through long experience. It has led countless airmen to some very dramatic landings - without even mentioning the effect on the unfortunate souls in row 40.
Professionals should try and emulate the Boeing autopilot.

[Desert185]

My Boeing/Douglas autopilot doesn't slip, and neither will other less sophisticated aircraft than yours. One has to be a pilot when clicking it off. :ok:

[dsc810]

I have always been told that you must crab in the big jets
I was also led to believe one such reason was if you use a wing down approach you might drag an wing mounted engine pod on the ground at the bottom.
Also that Airbus does not allow sideslips in its normal law flybywire software config anyway.

Somewhere in the back of my mind is the point that any side slipping permitted and the max level of it might be limited by some 'rear fuselage Va' limit consideration in these sorts of aircraft.

With a background in gliding and having no experience of flying such aircraft nor am likely to, so I do of course defer to those on this forum that have.

[sapco2]

Totally agree with scotbill and actually that technique also works admirably on any light aircraft I've ever flown.

The most common mistake I've seen comes from those forgetting to centralise the rudder once on the ground.

It works like this:

During the approach phase apply sufficient downwind rudder to point the nose down the centre then apply sufficient opposite aileron to hold a straight approach path along the extended centre line. Once on the ground just centralise the rudders but continue to hold into wind aileron throughout the landing roll. This technique looks and feels very professional and once perfected it will enable you to stay right on the centre line throughout your crosswind approach, landing and rollout.

[sapco2]

Go to YouTube in order to see some of the balls up jet pilots have made when they've tried crabbing in. There is some scary stuff to be seen and I know which technique I'm going stick with!

[Cows getting bigger]

I thought this was the private flying bit of the forum, not the airliner bit? :)

I teach both techniques, C152/PA28. Students tend to gravitate towards one and stick with it.

Regardless, in the ubiquitous GA single engine, the aim should be to touchdown in the direction of travel, with no lateral movement and this can only be done if the aircraft is in a slip at the moment of touchdown.

[foxmoth]

I teach both techniques

Ditto, I find most tend to prefer wing down, but leave it to personal preference and there are a few that like the crab.

[Desert185]

Exactly. Find what works best for you and use that technique. Just be aware of the differing possibilities in different aircraft and when using any automation that may exist.

Let's not get into what controls airspeed and what controls profile on final, which is another :mad::ugh:

:)

[scotbill]

I thought this was the private flying bit of the forum, not the airliner bit? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gifAs Sapco 2 said the crossed controls technique works on every aeroplane I have ever flown from Tiger Moth/Chipmunk to the Boeings.

Are you suggesting that private flyers have nothing to learn from those that fly the heavy metal?

My Boeing/Douglas autopilot doesn't slip,I presume it's a Douglas autopilot rather than a Boeing one?

have always been told that you must crab in the big jets
I was also led to believe one such reason was if you use a wing down approach you might drag an wing mounted engine pod on the ground at the bottom.It's not a wing down approach. You are picking the wing up with opposite rudder so that the residual bank is less than 2 degrees. You are more likely to dent a pod in a kick-off-drift scenario that goes wrong.

[abgd]

Managed to get the video to work by clicking on the 'watch in youtube' button.

I have to admit that as I don't fly nearly as frequently as I would like, crosswind landings are high on my list of things I'm not as comfortable with as I might wish. I can practice a forced landing whenever I choose, but rarely get the chance to fly in a significant crosswind. Being based in a valley probably doesn't help - any wind's much more likely to be funneled one way or another.

[Desert185]

Scotbill:

I currently fly a 747SP and a DC-8-72. Both have the factory installed autopilot, and neither will slip on final when coupled. Been kicking it into a slip in the flare for decades, which is the advertised technique for those aircraft. Have never caught a pod (or an outer flap on a 727).

I do the same in my 185, BTW. I live and fly in the mountains. With mechanical turbulence and gusty wind, the slip method doesn't work well, so I prefer and use the crab method on final. Many slip, and that is OK if it works for them.

What we do in the jet doesn't always adapt well to the spam cans, but flying is flying so much of it can transfer aided by specific knowledge of the aircraft you fly.

[RatherBeFlying]

In gliders, you like to keep the wingtips off the ground; so, it's crab down to the flare and straighten with rudder with a bit of aileron into the wind to compensate for the rudder lifting the wing.

The wingtips in the 2-seaters are higher off the ground than most single seaters. Some single seater wings are really close to the ground.

The secret advantage in landing a glider in a crosswind is that the wings are so low, the crosswind is less;)

[Crash one]

In a recent crosswind landing 25G35 at 40deg to runway (grass) in a 600kg taildragger I cannot recall whether I used crab or wing down, & I challenge anyone to say it was definitely one or the other, the thing was bouncing up & down so much I actually used the "stick & rudder" method.Am I missing something in the precision control department? Some posts on here make it sound as though a crosswind landing should be performed as if the a/c is on rails.

[scotbill]

I currently fly a 747SP and a DC-8-72. Both have the factory installed autopilot, and neither will slip on final when coupled.Haven't flown either so don't know whether they are autoland equipped. The 757/67 etc are and the autopilot does an incredible job in a xwind - smoothly crossing the controls from about 500' down to land as though it were on rails. Have always trained humans to follow its example but perhaps leave the correction till about 100' in case of windshear on short finals.
The experienced pilot will cope with Xwinds but it is my firm belief that many a learner has had his confidence destroyed by the fine judgement required in the kick-off-drift-at-at-the-last-minute school. Particularly with taildraggers.
Much of it came from airforce training. Finesse is not as important in a fighter as it is with hundreds of nervous passengers down the back.

[Desert185]

The Classic 747 is autoland capable with a crosswind limit considerably less than the 30 Kt limit in the flight manual. It will touchdown in a crab and then the event will really become interesting when the nosewheel touches down, hence the crosswind limit. The pilot must kick it straight before nosewheel contact and control centerline manually during the rollout. The wing and body gear combo does not like touching down in a crab.

The DC-8 has no autoland capability, and is even a bigger handful during a gusty crosswind. Landing in a slight crab, especially on a wet or icy runway to avoid pod contact is a normal occurrence for those with some experience in a DC-8, particularly with the larger CFM engines. The 8 is a rugged airplane.