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daxwax
1st Jun 2013, 16:24
Hi everyone
So yesterday I passed my PPL revalidation after ten years off. Delighted! It all came back fairly readily and thanks to Stapleford Flight Centre.

My question is whether you think I should try to get an IMC rating? (and I'm aware of the 8th April 2014 cut off for EASA)
Or instead should I simply use the privileges of my PPL to increase my skill, confidence, experience etc?

I will be flying a Diamond DA40 out of Stapleford so single engine. It's a lovely aircraft with all the IFR bells and whistles but no anti-ice. (and glides like a errrr...... glider which takes a bit of getting used to!)
My main type of flying going forward is likely to be touring with a friend or fellow PPL. I have about 140 hours total time - 70 of that was with East Midlands UAS where I got my PIFG but it was a fair while ago.

What do people think? Would an IMC rating be money and experience well spent or would I be better off simply hour building PPL? Would I actually feel confident enough to use an IMC rating in anger if I got it ie being single engine, in or above cloud? And would it then become a hassle keeping it valid?

Thanks - I realise that this is a question with no 'right' answer.

Johnm
1st Jun 2013, 16:36
Just do it. It will make you a better pilot and may one day save your bacon

stickandrudderman
1st Jun 2013, 17:02
Ditto. AOPA's promise to sue the government if anyone dies as a result of losing control in IMC sums it up.

soarfeet
1st Jun 2013, 19:35
You'll learn effectively as mich as you would doing an IR, without the expense of having to do it a variable pitch/retractable undercarriage. You'll up your game and it will open doors should you want to get involved in parachute drop flying for example, where some drop zones require flight into class A airspace (A discretion allows IMC holders undertaking parachute dropping to enter an airway).

18greens
1st Jun 2013, 21:24
Do it.

The time spent learning a new skill is many times more valuable than drilling holes in the sky.

The IMC is uniquely British, many people have spent many years fighting EASA to keep it. You owe it to them to get the qualification and keep it alive for others.

custardpsc
1st Jun 2013, 22:01
+1 for just do it. Its not that hard, its a great confidence improver and a potential life saver, to say nothing of experiencing the inside of a cloud making you aware of why you shouldnt be there unless you are rated and current.

A and C
2nd Jun 2013, 09:48
You can't underestimate the safety case for the IMC and you will always have this training behind you whatever the dullards at EASA do.

My advice would be to NOT do the training on a glass cockpit aircraft, the glass is almost too easy to use, two days ago I spent the first ten min or so playing catch up with a conventional instrument aircraft despite having about 400 hours IFR flight this year on glass cockpit aircraft.

Using a conventional instrument aircraft may me a bit harder to start but the reward is that you will be a much better and safer pilot for it and you will be ahead of the game when the glass goes blank and you have to revert to the standby instruments.

Jetblu
2nd Jun 2013, 11:15
daxwax - In 1985 I faced the same dilemma as you, albeit without any EASA deadlines. One winters day in 1986 I gave myself the biggest fright of my life.
I set off from Southend in CAVOK. My destination was Haverfordwest reported as CAVOK. Enroute the weather deteriorated to marginal VMC. The next thing I remember was entering cloud and panicking. Although I had done 4 hours instrument flying in my ppl, that was barely enough experience to execute a 180 and get myself on a weather diversion to Cardiff, with reported better weather.
After that day, my mind was set on a instrument qualification to get myself out of any potential trouble.

As everyone has said here, it will make you a better pilot and I can thoroughly concur with that.

Gertrude the Wombat
2nd Jun 2013, 11:28
My advice would be to NOT do the training on a glass cockpit aircraft
Is it not still the case that you need to do the partial panel unusual attitude recovery part of the test in an aircraft with steam dials? Seems sensible to me to do the entire course and test with steam dials and convert to EFIS afterwards.

old,not bold
2nd Jun 2013, 12:52
I did an IMC rating (in an Aerobatic C152) for fun many decades ago; as I recall, apart from level flight under the hood it included recovery from (very) unusual attitudes, stalls and fully-developed spins using T&S, DG and ASI only (others blanked off), climbing and descending Rate 1 turns, maintaining a stated holding pattern (level and descending), doing a join overhead and let-down approach down to 500 ft using that procedure where you called repeatedly for QDMs and mentally plotted where you were relative to the runway, join overhead and let-down approach procedure to 500 ft on the ADF, take-off from start of roll (using the DG), turn and climb on course, all done firmly under the hood. Maybe it's more difficult these days, but I hope that it still has all those requirements or the modern equivalent, to produce a competent PPL.

The rating paid off handsomely when I got caught out by nightfall and cloud on the way to Le Touquet a year or two later (through stupidity, but that's not the point) and again when I had a engine failure (of the only engine) while IMC in cloud over the Italian mountains on route Naples - Brindisi. You could say that over-confidence due to the rating played its part in being IMC over mountains in the first place for that one, but it surely saved my life.

Among other reasons, lack of IMC competence was possibly a cause of the deaths of a PPL and his passengers in a single-engine aircraft, in a tragedy a few miles east of Exeter in the 1980's. Unable to maintain or increase height, while flying in cloud, due to icing and clearly increasingly stressed (judging by the tone of the RT, I was in the tower) he lost control and crashed. Had he been able to retain control and descend straight on the vector suggested by ATC he should have come out of cloud and icing conditions safely.

Do the rating. Without it you are missing an essential skill. It's as simple as that.

rats404
2nd Jun 2013, 20:11
I was in a very similar situation, and did my IMC rating after revalidating my PPL. It was an excellent decision.

Do it, you will not regret it.

Gertrude the Wombat
2nd Jun 2013, 21:24
Maybe it's more difficult these days
Nah, the unusual attitudes aren't "very", there's no spinning, and when was the last time anyone did a QDM approach?

daxwax
3rd Jun 2013, 08:37
Thanks everyone. A fairly resounding 'do it'!
I'll go and get me foggles on........

custardpsc
3rd Jun 2013, 21:44
Oldnotbold, forgive me for asking but were you in imc before the engine failure, or as a result of it? It sounds like before, and you must have been relying on more than a imc rating (valid only in uk) in that case? Or did you chose to fly imc? None of my business, beyond curiosity as to whether you were perhaps vmc on top, and whether your imc had tempted you to rely on your skills to be safe either in imc or vfr on top, ie to put yourself in a position that a non imc ppl might seek to avoid. No doubt it saved you, but didnt it also tempt you? I ask, not to judge, but to debate and understand the temptation side of the coin, in uk and abroad.

daxwax
4th Jun 2013, 22:51
Does the new EASA opinion published today change things for me or not?
And is it true that the new enroute IR will allow for flight in class A airways?
Got my first IMC trip on Saturday.
Thanks

thing
4th Jun 2013, 23:06
Do it without a doubt (looks like you are doing anyway, top man). Don't look on it as a get out of jail card though. Use it regularly, stay in practise. I use mine whenever possible, there's nothing like climbing through the muck into a clear blue sky and brilliant cloudscape instead of scud running in the murk with the other mortals.

Edit: This of course supposes you have an instrument let down available at the other end!

Pace
4th Jun 2013, 23:17
Whatever you do holds a question mark! What would I do? Probably hot shoe it to the USA for a couple of weeks, use the money to get an FAA IR Then fly your hour building in the USA as IFR flight so you get the hours towards a conversion to a full EASA IR.
Flying is a much cheaper thing to do in the USA compared to europe!
But that is my opinion !
But hey we are all gambling on this one

Pace

thing
4th Jun 2013, 23:31
Whatever you do holds a question mark! What would I do? Probably hot shoe it to the USA for a couple of weeks, use the money to get an FAA IR Then fly your hour building in the USA as IFR flight so you get the hours towards a conversion to a full EASA IR.
Flying is a much cheaper thing to do in the USA compared to europe!
But that is my opinion !
But hey we are all gambling on this one

Pace

Meanwhile, back in the real world of people who can't just up sticks and go to the States for two weeks and then build up IFR hours.....:)

Johnm
5th Jun 2013, 07:20
Does the new EASA opinion published today change things for me or not?
And is it true that the new enroute IR will allow for flight in class A airways?
Got my first IMC trip on Saturday.
Thanks

Not really the EIR is just a proposal at this stage. If you get the IMCR done you will secure an IR(R) and that will give you the privileges to fly IFR up to and including Class D and fly approaches but only in the UK. If you subsequently take an EIR when available you'll be able to fly home from Europe airways and land via an approach. You won't be able to plan to fly approaches outside the UK though, but if the weather catches you out you will have the skills you need to get on the ground without drama. My IMCR saved my life in Germany when I got caught out in lowering cloud and rising ground. I just climbed into the cloud, sorted out a suitable diversion and flew the ILS into it! If there's any question raised over the legalities while in the air the answer is simple.... it goes MAYDAY,MAYDAY,MAYDAY. G-XX now in IMC request vectors for the ILS :E

CISTRS
5th Jun 2013, 08:22
Please do it.
The UK weather is so unpredictable so far as encountering unexpected IMC is concerned. Conditions can change in minutes.
I know.

banditb6
5th Jun 2013, 18:49
Does this then mean that if you do the IMC before April 2014 you will be able to use the IMC rating (IR(R)) after this date?

It's something I am also considering, but wouldn't want to spend the money only to find out its worthless in the future!

Any one have a link to what training is involved, other than partial panel and various approaches? Thanks

Johnm
5th Jun 2013, 19:17
Does this then mean that if you do the IMC before April 2014 you will be able to use the IMC rating (IR(R)) after this date?

Yes


Any one have a link to what training is involved, other than partial panel and various approaches? Thanks


http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_fcl_25v2.pdf

eagle29
5th Jun 2013, 19:45
Even if you never use the IMC rating in its legal definition, it is some of the most valuable training you can do in the british weather, especially if you do any cross country time. I was like you and unsure whether to spend the money a few years ago, I did, and I can think of more than a few flights where it has added a safety margin in deteriorating weather. Even though I'm now overseas and the ticket is no longer of use, I call on those skills once in a while. The only danger - never expect the skills to be there when you need them without continual practice!

handsfree
6th Jun 2013, 15:18
Cannot recommend doing it too much and try to do as much as possible on steam driven instruments and in as awful weather as your instructor is willing to go out in.
The experience is invaluable in the UK given the weather we get. As others have said it may well save your bacon. It has got me out of deep poo twice in the past.

One thing I would add though is don't deliberately go out into dire weather when you have got it. Use it to get out of unavoidable trouble not into avoidable trouble.
You'll be a better and safer pilot for it.

old,not bold
11th Jun 2013, 16:48
custardpsc

Sorry about the long delay....I missed your question. I was, in a fairly disorganised kind of way, aiming to find VMC above or in between cloud, and relying on confidence to climb up through cloud to get there. It was not controlled airspace and it was well about 3,000ft, but I probably only had a hazy idea of the regs anyway.

The flight was Naples to Brindisi, and the long way round the coast was very long. Over the mountains looked quicker. As I mentioned, I was supremely confident that I could manage it, with an IMC rating.

It was all a very long time ago; rules were less oppressive then.

To round off the tale; when the engine went all quiet I managed to establish a glide at 60KT (it was a Prentice, why is no-one surprised it stopped) and turn 180 as the probable best escape route. Just as I was beginning to think I might hit the ground quite soon, I came out of the cloud about 1,000 ft above ground. Here the Good Lord intervened; the 1:500,000 map showed no strips, airfields, whatever within 30 miles, but there right below me was a long, wide runway, and I was pretty much at the 1,000 ft point for a forced landing. It was a military airfield, but they were very nice about it, fixed the magneto's (basically, dried them out, it was a Prentice, after all) and sent me on my way with instructions NOT to fly the beast in cloud again. So I didn't. So it caught fire instead, taking off from Baghdad a few days later.

Bazza1400
10th Aug 2013, 19:24
I had the same question, so thank you for the post and all the helpful replies.

:ok:

jollyrog
10th Aug 2013, 19:52
How can you lose?

T10
10th Aug 2013, 20:06
Just about to start mine

Sillert,V.I.
11th Aug 2013, 13:30
Echoing just about everyone else, just do it. The skills & confidence you gain may one day save your life.

I started my ab initio training with a somewhat quirky instructor (anyone remember the late Harry Knight?) & began flying in real IMC on my second PPL lesson. In consequence, instrument flying became ingrained from the outset.

Just as well - later in my PPL training, on my first solo flight away from the circuit, I ended up in a cloud a couple of miles from the edge of the Heathrow CTZ boundary. A stupid thing to do (and the CFI gave me a first-rate rollicking for it), but at least I was alive to receive it & managed to navigate my way back to visual conditions without busting CAS.

I did my IMC pretty much immediately after getting my PPL.

daxwax
9th Nov 2013, 15:48
So today I passed my IMC test!!
I just wanted to say thanks for all the encouragement to do it. I certainly feel that the training has made me a better pilot particularly with regard to my decision making.
And thanks to Adrian at Stapleford for being a great instructor.
In a strange way I'm quite glad there was the threat of extinction for the IMC as it made me get on with it. But pleased that it has at least a five year reprieve.

Next thread - to Enroute IR or not to Enroute IR..........

mad_jock
9th Nov 2013, 16:45
well done dax. :ok:

Now try and get into the habit of planning your flights IMC/IFR and then if you can stay visual do so.

The day you get caught out and need to actually use it in anger you will thank me for it.

Try and keep your currency up as well.

Straighten Up
9th Nov 2013, 17:55
Whatever you do holds a question mark! What would I do? Probably hot shoe it to the USA for a couple of weeks, use the money to get an FAA IR Then fly your hour building in the USA as IFR flight so you get the hours towards a conversion to a full EASA IR.
Flying is a much cheaper thing to do in the USA compared to europe!
But that is my opinion !
But hey we are all gambling on this one

Pace

Any other thoughts on this method vs IMC training in UK would be appreciated. I am planning some USA hour building in March anyway so have the time set aside for this.

riverrock83
11th Nov 2013, 00:05
Pace's comment was in context of the IMC rating may not be obtainable after April next year. At the moment, if everything goes as expected, Europe is going to let the CAA continue to give out new ones for another 5 years.

FAA IR is easier to get than an EASA one. However you need to keep in current. If you aren't going to use the facilities of a full IR then it there is no point in going for it. However if you want to use an IR internationally you will need a full one.

Comes down to currency in my view. If you are going to use it from time to time to hop through a few clouds to do some VFR on top, go IMC and know your limitations. If you are regularly going to do long distance airway transits you need a full IR. IMC is easier to keep current with (legally speaking) but real currency is in flying time.